amps ?

[etr63]

Hi All
I am getting ready to set up a fish room in the basement and will need to run some new circuits. How do you tell how many amps a heater, AC filter and linier air pump will each draw? I was planning on 2 20 amp circuits, one for 4 75 gallon tanks, 2 water storage barrels and an air pump. one for 8 29 gallon tanks.
Earl

[pcsb23]

Earl most equipment has a wattage rating, ie your heater may be a 250W and so on. add up all the watts then use this formula total watts / volts = amps

so 2 heaters, 60w light and a 300W airpump = 860w so 860 / 230v (UK volts) = 3.74 amps.

Paul.

[discussmith]

Pauls formula is right. Just remember that overseas is 230v and we are 120 volt in the states. A 20 amp circuit will handle 2400 watts but always leave a cushion and stop around 2000 as you don't want to heat circuit components up. 2 circuits will more than handle your present needs. Just don't close off the possibility of adding more should the future require it.

[scans]

Circuits are MUCH easier and cheaper to install at the begining like you are now. I would suggest you over estimate. If you think you need 2 now, put in 4. that way you have little to no worries about expansion and plug placement. heaters and lights will most likely suck up the majority of your current, so think about how many of them in a worst case situation

[ronrca]

By code (CEC) you can not load up a circuit to its max (not sure if it is the same in the US though). The capacity rating is 80% therefore 15Amp breaker will carry 12Amps (1440W) no problem and 20A breaker, 16A (1920W).

[etr63]

Hi All
Thanks for all the great advice. I have decided to run 3 20 amp cricuits. one for the 8 - 29 gal, one for the 4 - 75 gal, and one for the storage barrels and air pump. I have never installed new wiring before. I just went to the home improvement stores and looked for some one who was buying alot of electrical components, then started asking questions. I bought what I think I will need to do the job. Now as long as I dont burn the house down. I have to just remember "dont lick the black wire". LOL. With out Discus Im sure I would never had a reason to mess with wiring.
Earl

[Ardan]

Each 20 amp circuit, use 12 gauge wire.:)
ground fault circuit interrupter outlets or breakers are good, but make sure to check that they don't trip and aren't reset promptly.

hth
Ardan

[etr63]

Hi Ardan
I did get the 12/2 wire. I am going to put each tank on a surge portector as opposed to GFCI outlets so I dont have to worry about one problem taking all the tanks down. If it happens you know its gona happen when your not home.
Earl

[Cosmo]

Earl,

I was told by a contractor friend when I put in my wiring not to use the ground circuit interupter recepticles for the reason you mentioned. He suggested that buying the breakers with the GFCI feature would be better... I didn't install either though... use surge protectors too. Give some thought to a battery backup or generator too.. never know

Jim

[Ardan]

Hi Earl,
I haven't been using them either, had a sump pump at the old house fail for that reason. big flood in the cellar:mad: :D (GFCI)

12/2 with ground?? Usually is. (3 wires, one bare)
Glad you got 12 guage, some try with 14 gauge and then overheats at 20 amps and that's where fires start.

Best of luck, any questions, ask.:) will try to answer
Sometimes a good electrical book helps with questions too.

Ardan

[ronrca]

GFI breakers are expensive. I use GFI receptacles for all my receptacles. The only thing it will 'take down' is whatever is plugged into that particular receptacle. A GFI breaker will 'take down' the whole circuit however.

And as Ardan mentioned, get an electrical book. If really helps. There is one book that I have which is the simplified book with looks of pictures on installations. Its around 100pgs I believe and only concentrates on residential wiring.

Btw, 12gauge wire for 120V circuits is refered to as 12/2. The ground wire isnt counted because you must have a ground regardless. You can also get 12/3 wire which used in 240/120V 2pole breaker 'split' circuits. 12/2 is 120V or 240V 1pole breaker only.

[discusfire4]

Home Depot or Lowes has several books on wiring if you are going to do it yourself. It covers everything from figuring your load, installing a sub-panel, all the way to placing the covers over the outlets.

[etr63]

When I was getting the components at the home improvement store I did pick up a book that sounds like what you mentioned Ron. It shows how to wire different circuits. Going to try and get as much as possible done this weekend.

[pcsb23]

Good luck Earl, don't electrocute yourself!!

Paul.

[ronrca]

When I was getting the components at the home improvement store I did pick up a book that sounds like what you mentioned Ron. It shows how to wire different circuits. Going to try and get as much as possible done this weekend.

Glad to hear! :thumbsup: Tell us how it goes! ;)

[jeep]

FYI, a GFI will instantly break the circuit from the GFI on (no matter where the short or load occurs), as long as it is installed first in line of a series of outlets. If a GFI only breaks the circuit in a single outlet then it is either installed incorrectly or it is a dedicated circuit...

I also prefer GFI breakers but yes, they are pretty expensive. I think around $50 for a 15 amp GFI breaker.

hth,

Brian

[ronrca]

FYI, a GFI will instantly break the circuit from the GFI on (no matter where the short or load occurs), as long as it is installed first in line of a series of outlets. If a GFI only breaks the circuit in a single outlet then it is either installed incorrectly or it is a dedicated circuit...


Yes and no, depending on how you install it. It is cheaper I suppose if you only use 1 GFI receptacle and connect all the rest of the receptacles on the load side. If you install it parallel, then it will not take the whole circuit down, in series, yes. I prefer parallel as I dont want to take the whole circuit down, just that affected receptacle. At least I know where to look for the problem. Reason is that GFI receptacles are intended to sense ground faults which occur on the equipment that is plugged in to it. No reason to take down all the rest of the tanks on that circuit where only equipment on 1 receptacle is effect. ;)

[dishpanhands]

here is some food for thought..if you run a dedicated line for each of your tanks.and your run the wires back to your breaker box one wire hooked to one breaker and the next tank is hooked to the next breaker right under the last breaker.. this is could kill you even if you use GFI's, because one tank will be on L1 and the tank beside it will be on L2 this will make 220 volts between the two tanks and if you get between the two you will die. the GFI will not kick because the ground is not part of the short.;)

[ronrca]

You cant use GFIs on 3 wire circuits because of the common neutral. If your not running a 3 wire, you can not run 2 circuits to 1 receptacle. The GFI design is based on measuring any difference of current on the neutral and hot, not ground. GFIs are not intended as short circuit protection rather Ground Fault protection as the name indicates (which is a 'form' of short circuit). In electrical terms, short circuit and ground fault are slightly different. In the event of a short circuit, the breaker better trip rather than you getting a shock. In the application that we are discussing, we are concerned about equipment failure and shorting/leaking to ground thru you, not short circuit within the wiring system such as line to line or line to ground/neutral.

[dishpanhands]

I didn't say anything about any three wire circuits. I am saying that if you run a dedicated 12/2 to a GFI for one tank then run a new circuit to the tank next to it with its own 12/2 and GFI that the GFI's will not work if you are touching the tank beside it. unless they are on the same breaker or you skip a breaker in your box. so that they both are on L1 or L2.

[dishpanhands]

One more thing about the GFI. If the appliance that you plug in to it does not have a ground terminal on the plug it won't help there anyway. Just about everything in my tanks doesn't have a ground terminal on the plug.

[ronrca]

O! Ic what you mean. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you were trying to use 2 circuits in 1 receptacle. lol!

In both cases that you mention, the GFI will trip if you have a ground leak because the GFI measures the difference between the hot and neutral or current in vs. current out. This will work even if your equipment are not grounded (2 prong). This is because in the event of a ground fault, the current out is different than current and that can only mean a fault or current not returning but going somewhere else. Therefore the GFI which has the fault will trip but not the other GFI.

Any path other than back thru the receptacle will trip the GFI regardless providing the GFI is installed correctly.

[dishpanhands]

well if you don't have the ground wire or a ground on the plug. then unless you use a ground wire on your tanks and you have a circuit open say in your heater. then the tank will be tied to neutral and if you hit the hot wire the electric will come out of the hot wire through your body and back into the neutral of the GFI it won't kick. same electric in that went out it just made your body the load.

[ronrca]

Sorry! It doesnt work that way. If you are standing on the ground, you become the ground path unless you are not standing on the ground or using insulated footwear plus you have to form a circuit via 2 points of connection. Therefore, the ground wire or ground on the plug is not neseccary for the GFI to function.

[dishpanhands]

sorry but my floor is wood my tank stand is wood and i don't have a ground probe in my tank. all i have to do is have my hand in the tank and touch the light on top. i'm not saying not to use GFI. i'm saying it will only save you from the most common way of getting shocked, and not to trust that it will save your life every way. i saw the 220 thing from a factory rep. he said it has to do with the neutral and the ground are open and a open circuit will measure high and the GFI won't see the 220.

[ronrca]

my floor is wood my tank stand is wood and i don't have a ground probe in my tank. Good point as I have 'touched' many 'hot' wire with no shock as long as I am also not touching ground wire or box or the neutral however dont take it that you will not get one. I have 'experimented' (dont try this at home btw) that if I 'brush' the hot, I dont notice anything. However, if I grab it and start squeezing harder and harder, I notice a tingle which gets stronger the harder I squeeze and I am standing on a wood floor as well btw.


all i have to do is have my hand in the tank and touch the light on top. Not sure if I understand exactly what you mean. Are you getting a shock when you do this and the GFI doesnt trip?


i'm not saying not to use GFI. i'm saying it will only save you from the most common way of getting shocked, and not to trust that it will save your life every way. If you are getting a shock, check your equipment and replace it. You should not be getting a shock. A GFI certainly is better than nothing at all.


i saw the 220 thing from a factory rep. he said it has to do with the neutral What has nothing to do with the neutral?


and the ground are open and a open circuit will measure high and the GFI won't see the 220 Lets see if I can understand this as well. No ground in system because equipment is 2 prong only (I believe all pumps are 3 prong and heaters 2 prong). If the equipment fails and leaks to the water, nothing occurs because current is not going anywhere providing ground is not present however there will be a voltage potential in the tank. I think this is what you mean by the open circuit however Im not sure why 220V as one tank is 120V and the other is 120V but not connected together unless you are referring to putting your hands in both tanks at the same time!? This may occur if the equipment in both tanks fail and there is a V potential. The GFIs will trip in both tanks actually and you will get a shock.

The severity of the shock is dependant on a number of factors such as what you are standing on (doenst matter if you are on wood or not), what you are wearing on your feet, your body resistance, the V potential in the tank, the current, etc. In your case, you may feel a slight tingle if you are standing on a wood floor and even this is dependant on your body resistance which believe it or not, is quite high. If you were outside in moist dirt, the severity would be much, much greater.


A little reading on it:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39941&highlight=GFCI

http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm

[dishpanhands]

Ok let me try it this way. A GFI trips when it sees a voltage drop from hot to ground only..as long as all the voltage drops are hot to neutral it don't kick. I can think of a bunch of way to shock yourself hot to neutral.common mistakes are like wireing your own light and not checking to see which wire goes to the wide prong on the cord.or turning your receptacle in to an octopus with a cheap extention cord that will let you plug your cord in both ways or it can be pluged in both ways. somebody cutting the ground off a plug and pluging it in upside down.

Now lets say I am going to wire 10 tanks on one wall in my house and I am going to run two new breakers for the job. I run two wires back to my breaker box i put the two breakers in on the same side of my breaker box one just under the other. This is a common mistake by doing this i have now ran 220 to that wall. if you get hit by that 220 the GFI"s will not trip. both GFI's will see 110 volt drops and nothing hot to ground they won't trip. you need to skip one spot in your breaker box so that both circuits are on L1 or on L2.

[ronrca]

A GFI trips when it sees a voltage drop from hot to ground only..as long as all the voltage drops are hot to neutral it don't kick.
Please read http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm
GFI does not operate at all on voltages but currents. The voltage from hot to neutral will be the same as the voltage between hot and ground. Neutral is the return path and ground is the 'safety'. Both neutral and ground are at the same potential. If you look inside the electrical panel, the neutral is grounded.


I can think of a bunch of way to shock yourself hot to neutral.common mistakes are like wireing your own light and not checking to see which wire goes to the wide prong on the cord.or turning your receptacle in to an octopus with a cheap extention cord that will let you plug your cord in both ways or it can be pluged in both ways. somebody cutting the ground off a plug and pluging it in upside down. Not sure I understand this exactly. Since we are using AC circuits, it doesnt matter which goes where. We use color codes and terms as spelled out by electrical codes to 'simplify' AC circuits. In reality, electricity doesnt care whether its running thru a black wire or white wire. From an AC electricity view of point, there really isnt a hot and neutral wire as the hot and neutral are alternating every 60 cycles per second (60hz).


I run two wires back to my breaker box i put the two breakers in on the same side of my breaker box one just under the other. This is a common mistake by doing this i have now ran 220 to that wall. if you get hit by that 220 the GFI"s will not trip. both GFI's will see 110 volt drops and nothing hot to ground they won't trip. you need to skip one spot in your breaker box so that both circuits are on L1 or on L2. Im not sure I fully understand this as well. As previously mentioned, GFI operate on currents not voltage. If I were wiring using 2 circuits as you mentioned, Id use a 3 wire so I dont see your point. Kitchens by code are wired using 3 wire 220V/120V thus having 220V on 1 plug however the receptacle is split such that top and bottom are 120V. In your example, the only way to get 220V is in such an event the you have faults in 2 tanks that are on separate circuits and you simultaneously put your hands in both tanks. In any event, since GFIs operate on sensing a difference in current between hot and neutral, the GFIs will trip regardless and yes, you would get a nasty shock but the GFIs did their job and killed the power.


Dishpan,
I dont intend to be rude in any manner however Id like to know what your electrical background is if I may.

[dishpanhands]

from your link.


[Incidently, a type A GFCI will detect a "hotted hot" <G> as well as a gounded neutral. If there is a parallel path path from the load side hot back to line side hot, it will trip via the same mechanism as the load grounded neutral trip. So, a GFCI won't work on a "double ended" circuit.

"double ended" circuit is what you don't get. this is 220 thing and getting yourself hot to neutral.

Now for the two prong thing here in the U.S. the prongs are different sizes. this is to make sure that all the plugs get pluged in the same way, so that we don't make the case of one appliance netrual and the appliance next to it case hot. like you say it don't matter your wrong it does matter. now if you put a two wire plug on a light youself and not check then you can get it backwards and guess what happens then. Anybody that works in electric will knows these things.
If you would run 220 to one wall and try to split it at the wall or use one breaker on L1 and one on L2 your asking for it. This is setting youself up for a double ended circuit.

From your link again


Despite the fact that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) may be installed in a 2 wire circuit, the GFCI does not create a safety ground. In fact, shorting between the Hot and Ground holes in the GFCI outlet will do absolutely nothing if the GFCI is not connected to a grounded circuit (at least for the typical GFCI made by Leviton sold at hardware stores and home centers). It will trip only if a fault occurs such that current flows to a true ground. If the original circuit did not have a safety ground, the third hole is not connected. What this means is that an appliance with a 3 prong plug can develop a short between Hot and the (supposedly) grounded case but the GFCI will not trip until someone touches the case and an earth ground (e.g., water pipe, ground from some other circuit, etc.) at the same time.

Note that even though this is acceptable by the NEC, I do not consider it desirable. Your safety now depends on the proper functioning of the GFCI which is considerable more complex and failure prone than a simple fuse or circuit breaker. Therefore, if at all possible, provide a proper Code compliant ground connection to all outlets feeding appliances with 3 wire plugs.

And you say we don't need the ground prong on the plug.
Atleast with a ground there is a ground to kick the thing.
Like i said there is no ground in my tank.

And you said it a current thing that trips it. Your wrong again voltage leads current in a coil. The old saying was "Eli the Ice man" meaning voltage before current in coils and current before voltage in a cap.

I have a degree in electronic and a licence electrician been in the bussiness over 25 years. and have seen many foolish things.

I will repeat myself I'm not telling any one not to use them I'm just saying they DO NOT alway protect you in every way and should be installed by licenced people. If you loose respect for electicity it will get you. and to never trust a man made machine like these things with your life. allways better safe then sorry..

[ronrca]

I have a degree in electronic and a licence electrician been in the bussiness over 25 years. and have seen many foolish things.

I will repeat myself I'm not telling any one not to use them I'm just saying they DO NOT alway protect you in every way and should be installed by licenced people. If you loose respect for electicity it will get you. and to never trust a man made machine like these things with your life. allways better safe then sorry.. Thanks! I just had to make sure that we are on the same page. Its hard to know the audience without knowing their background on the subject especially when it comes to technical stuff. ;) Btw, I like having detailed discussions. Helps me learn by having to dig deeper into the specifics. :)



[Incidently, a type A GFCI will detect a "hotted hot" <G> as well as a gounded neutral. If there is a parallel path path from the load side hot back to line side hot, it will trip via the same mechanism as the load grounded neutral trip. So, a GFCI won't work on a "double ended" circuit.
"double ended" circuit is what you don't get. this is 220 thing and getting yourself hot to neutral.

This isnt clear to me. Perhaps Im not familiar with the terminology that is used such as 'hotted hot' and 'double ended'. I dont have much to do with 'trade' names to be honest so if you can give me a quick explanation if you dont mind on those terms.


Now for the two prong thing here in the U.S. the prongs are different sizes. this is to make sure that all the plugs get pluged in the same way, so that we don't make the case of one appliance netrual and the appliance next to it case hot.
No equipment is designed in such a manner that if the polarity of the plug be reversed that it be a hazard to the user. No equipment is designed to utilize the neutral to 'ground' the case. The reason receptacles have been constructed using polarities is for a couple of reasons. One, the 'hot' is fused in certain equipment and this is particularly important when servicing equipment. Second, it makes a difference ,as you know more than I (electrical degree rather than electronics), in the electronic circuitry of the equipment an ensure correct polarities(providing the equipment has electronics in it). Manufactures of electrical equipment in a grounded system do not use the 'neutral' as an equipment ground just as a receptacle's neutral is not connected to the receptacle's ground. This is to prevent what you are referring to.

If you cut the ground prong off a cord, the equipment ground is removed from the cord and the equipment. However, the equipment case in a 3 prong design is not connected to the hot/neutral wires and the ground is added for protection should the internal wiring short to a user accessible case. The grounding however has nothing to do with reversing polarity. In a two prong plug/equipment, there is no equipment ground thus the equipment case has no ground. Typically only used where equipment ground is not necessary such as heaters I suppose.


like you say it don't matter your wrong it does matter. now if you put a two wire plug on a light youself and not check then you can get it backwards and guess what happens then. Anybody that works in electric will knows these things.
Now let me see if I understand the example. Your wiring a 2wire receptacle from a light fixture?


And you say we don't need the ground prong on the plug.
Atleast with a ground there is a ground to kick the thing.
Like i said there is no ground in my tank. Yes, you dont need a ground for the GFI to operate. Of course nothing happens when shorting between the hot and ground 'holes' of the receptacle because the ground is not connected to anything. The GFI will trip if there is a differece in currents between hot and neutral meaning current is leaking somewhere else. You dont need the GFI receptacle itself grounded for this to happen. If you dont have a ground in your tank, you are right, nothing will happen when a fault occurs. That is until you put your hand in the tank and provide the current another 'path' to flow elsewhere.

There is a slight difference and perhaps a misunderstanding between short circuit and ground leak. Short circuit, line to neutral will not trip GFI that is correct as current in=current out. Only Line to ground will trip the GFI which is the intent. A line to neutral will trip the circuit breaker. A line to ground will trip the GFI. I guess we could talk circles around this one and in what scenerio equipment would fail. Perhaps we need to specify this one as they are different and that is why GFI were designed as a circuit breaker will not 'see' a ground leak.


And you said it a current thing that trips it. Your wrong again voltage leads current in a coil. The old saying was "Eli the Ice man" meaning voltage before current in coils and current before voltage in a cap. I can see the electronics background here! ;) Very true however the GFIs are not designed in this manner. All they are doing is sensing is a difference in current between the hot and neutral. The 'sensing circuit' is measuring the current and utilizing a coil to do it. ;)


I will repeat myself I'm not telling any one not to use them I'm just saying they DO NOT alway protect you in every way and should be installed by licenced people. If you loose respect for electicity it will get you. and to never trust a man made machine like these things with your life. allways better safe then sorry.. Amen to that!

[dishpanhands]

Not sure I understand this exactly. Since we are using AC circuits, it doesnt matter which goes where. We use color codes and terms as spelled out by electrical codes to 'simplify' AC circuits. In reality, electricity doesnt care whether its running thru a black wire or white wire. From an AC electricity view of point, there really isnt a hot and neutral wire as the hot and neutral are alternating every 60 cycles per second (60hz).


Wow i just re read that. Man you are so lost. The hot wire sources electrons and then sinks electron alternating 60 times a second. the netrual stayes at ground potential.

[ronrca]

lol! You are refering to.......basic electricity and the most common convention to refer to current flow. If I am so lost, perhaps you can explain AC to me and the +/- cycling 60x per second? I know its hard to grasp since we use all the conventional terms to simplify things. Perhaps I shouldnt of used the 'hot and neutral' rather + and - instead. Id like to also underline what I said From an AC electricity view of point or shall we say from an electron point of view.

Also please dont take it out of context as well. I was refering to your post that said,


Originally Posted by dishpanhands
I can think of a bunch of way to shock yourself hot to neutral.common mistakes are like wireing your own light and not checking to see which wire goes to the wide prong on the cord.or turning your receptacle in to an octopus with a cheap extention cord that will let you plug your cord in both ways or it can be pluged in both ways. somebody cutting the ground off a plug and pluging it in upside down.
From a non electronics equipment point of view such as a motor, what difference does it make in referance to the equipment casing? As mentioned before, the neutral does not become an equipment ground. If a light fixture is wired reverse polarity, the threads are hot rather than the little tab at the bottom. Definitely not good when changing light bulbs with the light switch on however I dont put my fingers into light sockets when changing .......hold on!...I thought we were talking about GFIs and how they could possibly not work!? Fact of the matter is that if there is any leakage other than back to the neutral, the GFI will trip regardless in situation. If this situation occurs in your unground tank, nothing happens until you put your hand in the tank. This does not matter which polarity the receptacle is wired or what polarity the equipment in your tank is connected to.


The hot wire sources electrons and then sinks electron alternating 60 times a second. Ok! That made no sense to me. Remember, in all this 'stuff', is based on the electron theory and that electrons 'flow'. Alternating current flows half the time in one direction and half the time in the other, changing its polarity 120 times per second with 60-hertz current.

[dishpanhands]

Well we don't use the +/- in AC. but if you want me to try to explain it by using it here it is."god forgive me LOL". For half of the cycle the hot wire goes 110 volts positive then the other of the cycle it goes 110 volts negitive and this is in comparision to neutral or earth ground(they are the same potential.rember they tied together in the box). and yes we do tie the case of our appliances to netrual if they are a two prong cord.
Like you said we go by code. so if you hook up a light and you run romax wire to it you would hook white to white and black to black, but when you use a regular cord and try to wire it yourself with a two prong plug you say it doesn't matter. It does. We want to make sure the case is netrual and you don't get a shock if you touch ground. this way no stray voltages or if the hot wire inside would touch the case it will trip breaker.

Just to clear up the GFI it only trips if the ground is part of the circuit if you have current flow out of the hot as long as the ground is not part( hot to netrual or L1 to L2 the 220 thing again) the thing won't kick. Look at that link that is all it talks about.
it doesn't change polarity 120 a sec just 60.

[ronrca]

:thumbsup:


yes we do tie the case of our appliances to netrual if they are a two prong cord. really? I'll have to double check this myself. The best applicance to check I suppose would be a toaster. Not too many things that are 2 prong though. Heaters are though but nothing to tie the 'case' to. lol Im going to look into this more and see if this is industry standard.


Like you said we go by code. so if you hook up a light and you run romax wire to it you would hook white to white and black to black, but when you use a regular cord and try to wire it yourself with a two prong plug you say it doesn't matter. It does. We want to make sure the case is netrual and you don't get a shock if you touch ground. What exactly do you mean by the 'case' though in this example?


Just to clear up the GFI it only trips if the ground is part of the circuit if you have current flow out of the hot as long as the ground is not part( hot to netrual or L1 to L2 the 220 thing again) the thing won't kick. Look at that link that is all it talks about.

In the link it says

Despite the fact that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) may be installed in a 2 wire circuit, the GFCI does not create a safety ground.

It will trip only if a fault occurs such that current flows to a true ground.

What this means is that an appliance with a 3 prong plug can develop a short between Hot and the (supposedly) grounded case but the GFCI will not trip until someone touches the case and an earth ground (e.g., water pipe, ground from some other circuit, etc.) at the same time.


and the quote from reefcentral:

You can install a GFCI on a 2-wire (groundless) circuit and it will work. However, it does not "create" a ground. If you are stuck with 2-wire then using a GFCI does give you some protection. However, your salt aquarium should be grounded as a basic safety precaution, as well as using GFCI outlets for the aq equipment.

This path is you (unless you use a dedicated ground rod often found in salt tanks) even though you may not be 'true' ground that doesnt matter since the GFI trips on mAs. This is what I was referring to back to beginning of post #26 on just touching the hot. You are correct that the GFI will not trip at the time of the fault inside the tank. It will trip when you put your hand in the tank though. As you have mentioned, this is better than nothing and one certainly should not trust any equipment regardless what it is.

[dishpanhands]

If you read you link you don't have to run a ground wire but if its shorted it won't kick till you touch earth ground. so if you touch netrual your had. they just left out the part about touching netrual. all circuit are to ground that they talk about.
so now you tell me how netrual can go positive and negitive compared to ground after all you think it does. current does run in the netrual but its the hot wire that makes it happen. and it stayes at ground potential. so if its at ground potential its pretty safe to say. If the case is tied to netrual you won't get shocked.

[dishpanhands]

:


This path is you (unless you use a dedicated ground rod often found in salt tanks) even though you may not be 'true' ground that doesnt matter since the GFI trips on mAs. This is what I was referring to back to beginning of post #26 on just touching the hot. You are correct that the GFI will not trip at the time of the fault inside the tank. It will trip when you put your hand in the tank though. As you have mentioned, this is better than nothing and one certainly should not trust any equipment regardless what it is.

hey if you want to calculate the voltage drop on the coil we can and we can even tell what size coil it has just because they rate it in mAs means they choose apples instead of oranges is all.

[ronrca]

If you read you link you don't have to run a ground wire but if its shorted it won't kick till you touch earth ground. Yes, thats what Im referring to.


so if you touch netrual your had. they just left out the part about touching netrual. all circuit are to ground that they talk about.If you touch neutral? If the equipment internally fails (insulation breakdown as an example) and there is contact with the outside environment (in our case, water), you will create another path for current thru yourself to flow to ground regardless if the receptacle or equipment is grounded or not. You can touch the hot, you can touch the neutral on the load side, or if the equipment fails on the hot or neutral side, it doesnt matter because you have become an alternative path for current flow to ground.


so now you tell me how netrual can go positive and negitive compared to ground after all you think it does. current does run in the netrual but its the hot wire that makes it happen. and it stayes at ground potential. so if its at ground potential its pretty safe to say.

Let me try it again. :p From a loads operational perspective (non electronic), lets say a light bulb, it doesnt matter whether if the hot enters one side of the plug or the other on a plug. Electrons will flow from source (or a greater potential) to ground (or a less potential). Current flow is also related to voltage. If there is no potential, there will be no current flow. Voltage is referred to as a difference of potential between two specific points. In most cases, one specific point is ground for numerous reasons and one that you mention, safety. Back to your question about neutral and ground, in normal operating parameters, what we call neutral is the path for current to flow to a lesser potential (ground) from a greater potential (hot or source). In a fault situation, the ground conductor (wire or other medium which includes us) becomes a parallel path to the lesser potential.


If the case is tied to netrual you won't get shocked. I wont bet my life on that. I checked some of my appliances at home that have 2 prong plugs. I found some with polarized plugs and others with non polarized plugs. The toaster, toaster oven, electric razor, ebo heaters all have non polarized plugs meaning that I can plug them in 2 ways. If the case for the toaster and toaster oven were tied to the neutral, oh oh. Both have metal cases btw.


hey if you want to calculate the voltage drop on the coil we can and we can even tell what size coil it has just because they rate it in mAs means they choose apples instead of oranges is all. Hmmm! Interesting. However in thinking about how voltage relates to ground, will the voltage not remain the same despite a current leak to ground? If there is an electrical fault and leakage to the tank, would the voltage not remain the same between hot and neutral? Im unclear how the GFI would use voltage then to 'sense' a leak!?

[dishpanhands]

If you touch neutral? If the equipment internally fails (insulation breakdown as an example) and there is contact with the outside environment (in our case, water), you will create another path for current thru yourself to flow to ground regardless if the receptacle or equipment is grounded or not. You can touch the hot, you can touch the neutral on the load side, or if the equipment fails on the hot or neutral side, it doesnt matter because you have become an alternative path for current flow to ground

so your saying just because there is water in your tank it is grounded..it doesn't. if there is no grounds in your tank and no grounds around your tank then there is no ground for the current to flow. except netrual to hot

[ronrca]

You are correct, nothing happens because there is no alternate path for current to flow anywhere.

I didnt say the water in the tank is grounded at all unless you do use a ground rod. What I did say was that you will create another path for current thru yourself to ground when you stick your hand into the tank because you have become that path. This alternate path will trip the GFI. :thumbsup:

[dishpanhands]

Hmmm! Interesting. However in thinking about how voltage relates to ground, will the voltage not remain the same despite a current leak to ground? If there is an electrical fault and leakage to the tank, would the voltage not remain the same between hot and neutral? Im unclear how the GFI would use voltage then to 'sense' a leak!?

Easy to tell what the voltage would be. (Xl=2PiFL) that will give you the resistance of the coil at the frequency. we know what Amps that will stop the heart. so we got resistance and the amps. V=IR. whats not droped acrossed the coil is droped acrossed you.because volt is in front of the current its faster to look for the voltage then to wait for the amps.


What I did say was that you will create another path for current thru yourself to ground when you stick your hand into the tank because you have become that path. This alternate path will trip the GFI.
You keep coming up with a ground that's not there. only hot and netrual on my wall. we have no ground plug (you said we don't need the third prong) and I'm on wood floor. so if I get it its going to be hot to netrual. and in your case because you ran 220 you will have L1 to L2 to worry about also.

[ronrca]

because volt is in front of the current its faster to look for the voltage then to wait for the amps.
We are not looking for the voltage drop across the coil or you as the sensing circuit is measuring the hot and neutral. Considering the time, voltage leads current by how much in a 60hz system?




You keep coming up with a ground that's not there. Perhaps you can help explain then what happens when you only touch the hot, no touching ground, no touching neutral, standing on a wood floor but still get a slight shock!? If this isnt a parallel path then you dont have to worry about getting a shock at all either unless you put both hands into the tank. Btw, I asked some of our master electricians at work regarding this particular matter. It doesnt matter whether you are standing on wood or not. One master indicated that he was working in the rafters of a mall installing 347V lighting where he thought the cable was de-energized. He grabbed the hot with one hand and could not let go (wood rafters, no grounds present at all). There are many such occurances. I did refer to this in post #26 where you only touch the hot and get a slight shock at 120V. You are creating a parallel current path that is not going back thru the neutral.

Perhaps it is because you are at a different potential than the system and current flows from greater to lesser potential.

[discussmith]

In reference to the electrician who got shocked by grabbing only the hot and not being connected to neutral, ground (earth or metal conductor) or opposing hot phase where did these master electricians say this current was going? I think they just missed something.

If what you are saying is true all high line workers who work on transmission lines would be dead.

[ronrca]

If what you are saying is true all high line workers who work on transmission lines would be dead. Please refer to working guidelines for HV workers and related equipment used on energized systems. And unfortunately yes, that has happened as well. Im looking for answers as well. Why do you get a shock as mentioned in post #26? I just mentioned my and others experiences. Now Im asking questions! Where does the current go? They didnt say where it was 'going' but the fact of the matter still remains, he got shocked. They may have missed something, thats true.



No way sombody with a degree in electric would ask such a question.
That's like asking. Who is buried in Grants tomb? And if it rains who would it be?
Not only is it a dumb question it's a two part dumb question.
They teach this just after Ohm's law.
Everyone always claims there is no dumb question, just dumb answers!
Just simple questions being asked, not wise cracks! Im asking for answers for which Im not getting any. One doesnt need to resort to insulting the other if one doesnt have an answer.


because volt is in front of the current its faster to look for the voltage then to wait for the amps.

Im not the one claiming that the GFI is using voltage to sense a fault just because it leads currents and is faster. Now you explain it please! Considering that a GFI will trip in a fraction of a second, how much 'wait for the amps' would there be considering 60 cycles per second? How much time difference is there between the two? Really a simply question for you given your response to the initial question. I know the answer, do you? Id like to also know what kind of power factor we are looking at in our homes? This will also help determine how much lag we may have? Or am I wrong? Power Utilities try to achieve a near unity pf in residentials and penilize Industrial users if their pf is bad.

Can you also explain how voltage is being used to sense the fault with hot and neutral being monitored?

[brewmaster15]

Shocking!!!!! Just shocking!!!! I thought only discus inspired such in depth Debates.:) But I Guess if you like electricity it can still be a "charged" debate.;) :) :)


Wish I could add to this, but its so far over my head I wouldn't know where to begin.....Luckily the rules for this kind of dialogue on the site are the same whether its Discus or amps...


Please keep it civil and just discuss the subject....Not each other.

thanks,
al

[Jeff_Hart]

Wow! That is some Interesting reading.

Earl, when you were over I was running my setup on 2-20amp circuits wired with 12gauge wire. I will be adding a third shortly as I am adding 5 more big tanks.

Jeff

[discussmith]

The point of my statement in that they missed something and perhaps also misunderstood by many is that all of our electricity after being generated and distributed to buildings goes through a transformer to alter the voltage for use. It is that transformer that the current is trying to get back to, no matter what path it chooses or uses. So a conductor of some sort back to that transformer has to be present or current cannot flow. If you are fully aware of those potential conducting paths you can better determine what potential dangers if any are present. It would take a large voltage potential to jump through the air (an insulator) to a conductor path back to the transformer. That is why high voltage linemen can work on live lines with the proper equipment and procedures. That is also why most people who get shocked or electrocuted are in their basements, bathroom,garage, or outside when they do and extremely rarely on a 1st or 2nd floor room built of wood.

[ronrca]

That could very well be that something was missed and since I was not there, I cant argue on his behalf.


It is that transformer that the current is trying to get back to, no matter what path it chooses or uses. So a conductor of some sort back to that transformer has to be present or current cannot flow. Ok! That is a good point but one thing forgotten is that all electrical equipment is grounded such as the service entrance panel and the transformer. The primary side of the transformer has a 1 conductor cable, not a 2 conductor that we normally see in our homes.


It would take a large voltage potential to jump through the air (an insulator) to a conductor path back to the transformer. That is why high voltage linemen can work on live lines with the proper equipment and procedures. Actually, I believe they insulate themselves from earth potential when working on energized HV lines.


That is also why most people who get shocked or electrocuted are in their basements, bathroom,garage, or outside when they do and extremely rarely on a 1st or 2nd floor room built of wood. Yes! This could be true. The closer you are to 'earth' or ground potential (or in other words less resistance to ground), the greater the current flow, the greater the shock. Perhaps that is why cases where people were not as near to ground were not harmed.

Back to one of my posts where I personally have 'touched' many 'hot' wire with no shock as long as I am also not touching ground wire or box or the neutral however dont take it that you will not get one. I have 'experimented' (dont try this at home btw) that if I 'brush' the hot, I dont notice anything. However, if I grab it and start squeezing harder and harder, I notice a tingle which gets stronger the harder I squeeze and I am standing on a wood floor as well btw. Perhaps Im looking at it from the wrong angle however. Perhaps it has nothing to do necessarily with 'ground' if no ground is present such as wood floor construction, etc. Perhaps it has do to more with our bodies electrical system as well and since we are at different 'potential', I receive a shock/tingling as current flows due to difference of potential (voltage). An idea that I would like to research however not really sure exactly where nessecarily to start. Any suggestions?

Its a very complex issue, electricity! I know this may boggle some minds but when you get into HV systems such as the utilities side of the equipment where earth is actually used as the 'return path', how do you explain that? How does current flow on the primary side of the transformer with only 1 conductor? Very intersting thought also.

[ronrca]

Some more extreme thinking and mind boogling reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_power_transmission

Mr. Tesla is very famous along with others! This, like the utilities 'earth', are phenomena’s not understand, unexplained and extremely fascinating.

[etr63]

Hi All
Whell I finally got it all wired. Hooked the wires to the breaker box. Fliped the switch on all three circuits and nothing blew up. Thats good rite? I put two lights on dimmer switches and they work. Tested an outlet on each circuit with a fan and it worked. By George I think I got it.
Thanks for all the advice.
Now on to step 2 the tanks.
Earl