Confusion about water changes...

[Kweenshaker]

I am seriously considering getting some discus (probably in the summer) so I am doing loads of research. I am so confused about water changes. How are they done? I have always been under the impression that it is best to let water sit for 24 hours before adding it to an aquarium. Is this wrong? Also, if a discus tank is kept at over 80*F, the water coming from my tap would definitely not be that hot (isn't it bad to use water from the hot water tank?) Even if my assumptions ARE correct, a 50% water change in a 60 gallon tank is THIRTY GALLONS. That's a lot of water!!

So please inform the uninformed....how do people carry out water changes? And is it necessary to do it EVERY day or can it be done maybe 3 times a week? Also, doesn't this constant disturbance stress out the fish?

THanks in advance.

[RyanH]

Discus do need clean water for proper growth and to stay healthy. I am more vigilant with my water changes when they are juveniles and then back off once they are at a size that I am happy with. So for adults, I will usually change 50% of their water 2-3 times per week.

Young Discus will get 70% nearly every day. This is especially important for them since they are fed considerably more than the adults. This means their water can be spoiled quite quickly. Young Discus really need pristine water to have maximum growth. It's also been my experience that they tend to be healthier, more outgoing, and have fewer disease problems if they are kept in really clean water.

Some people do more and some do less but this has worked well for me.

I'm running 9 tanks right now so I have 3 50 gallon storage barrels that I keep filled pretty much all the time. They each have a heater and an airstone running.

I use pythons to syphon water and waste from the tanks and I use a water pump with clear, plastic 3/4" hose to add water back to the tank. I can have three pythons going at the same time and can be filling a tank from one barrel while another is refilling. I'm fortunate in that my pH is stable from the tap so my water only needs to be warm and dechlorinated before it is added to the tank. I still age as much as I can (150 gallons) and use that on the juvenile tanks first.

I also test my water from time to time to make sure that it hasn't changed on me and that the pH is still stable.

As far as relying on hot water heaters to heat your water, I've never had a problem with mine. I could imagine though that older ones could add rust and other nasties to your water and their use should be avoided.

hth:)
-Ryan

[Greg Richardson]

Ryan covered your post quite well.
My suggestion is if u decide to grab the pipe and take a hit of discus keeping buy your stuff online and save big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ even after shipping costs. Maybe u are near a Big Als up there?

Here is a link to online links to buy fish supplies, food, etc.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=47859

[anne]

One thing re: using a hot tap. If you have a combi boiler (i.e. no hot water tank) then it should be safe.
If you have a hot water tank (which means the water will be sat in there picking up nasties from the tank such as metals etc) then best not to use hot tap water.
Perhaps you'd be better getting older discus which are likely to be hardier - therefore you could get away with fewer water changes?

[Kweenshaker]

wow...you have quite the sophisticated setup there, ryan!!
my problem is that the only place I'd have to put a water barrel is in the basement....and my aquarium will be on the second floor. Our house is really old, so I'm thinking that I shouldn't trust the hot water heater. Hmmm....I'll have to think of more options I guess..

Thanks for your replies!!

[RyanH]

With a reasonably powerful water pump, you shouldn't have a problem getting the water from your basement up to your aquarium.

I believe that Cosmo (another moderator here) pumps his water to different floors of his house. He's a lonely guy and would love to help you out. PM him if you have questions about his setup. :)

If you don't trust your water heater, then just invest in a cheap aquarium heater and drop it in your barrel. This should eliminate the need to run warm water from your tap.

Keep asking questions and learning. There is no reason why you can't have a viable setup to care for your Discus that is relatively hassle-free. I'd also poke around in the DIY section here. You can get tons of useful ideas there.

I can honestly say that my setup is from the stone age compared to the fishrooms of some of the members here. There are some really innovative and talented people in this hobby that put my primitive little spare bedroom to shame.

hth:)
Ryan

[Cosmo]

Yup... Lonely... that's me :( :D

Yes, I do pump water from the basement storage tanks to the second floor aquarium, and we have an old house too (just under 100 :) ) Running the hoses and electrical was the tricky part.. finding the right pump too (with the help of John at Jehmco)..

Something else that might help.. before my wife got disgusted and thew me out, I used to house my water barrel in the shower stall in the second floor bedroom about 12 ft from the tank. Used a 44 gal Rubbermaid trash can as my barrel, and hooked up a heater and air pump to age the water. I kept it on a shelf unit (metal.. of course) that was almost 3 feet high.. that way I got away with using a big powerhead to pump the water to the fish tank - had the barrel been sitting on the floor of the shower, the powerhead wouldn't have worked... simply syphoned the water out with a python onto the shower floor (lowest point) ..

Don't know if you can set something up like that or not.. like I said, the wife got disgusted ( I was surprised she let me do it in the first place.. lol) and that's when I moved the barrels to the basement and rigged up the plumbing..

Anyway... since I'm lonely ... thanks buddy ... be more than happy to give you whatever info I can if you go the basement route..

good luck :)

Jim

[Alight]

I use steri-lite plastic bins (45 gallon each) with cheap ($7 heaters) and a waterfall pond pump from Home Depot to pump water up from my basement to my fish tanks, through a garden hose. I use another garden hose as a syphon to empty the tanks.

I do 60% water changes every third day in my 55 gallon adult, planted Discus tank, and 70% every day in my 55 gallon fry, juvi grow out tank.

Good luck and welcome to the addiction!

Al Light

[Kweenshaker]

Yup... Lonely... that's me :( :D

Yes, I do pump water from the basement storage tanks to the second floor aquarium, and we have an old house too (just under 100 :) ) Running the hoses and electrical was the tricky part.. finding the right pump too (with the help of John at Jehmco)..

Hello...thanks for the reply! :) I don't think I could get away with the barrel in the shower thing (I unfortunately still live with my parents - the best way to avoid student debt! :D ) but I'd like to know more about your basement setup. There would definitely be room for a barrel...I'd just need to know the specs on a pump....and also is it a matter of just getting a really long hose and a bunch of extension cords or do you have to cut holes in walls and plumbing, etc?

[Kweenshaker]

I use steri-lite plastic bins (45 gallon each) with cheap ($7 heaters) and a waterfall pond pump from Home Depot to pump water up from my basement to my fish tanks, through a gardent hose. I use another gardent hose as a syphon to empty the tanks.

I do 60% water changes every third day in my 55 gallon adult, planted Discus tank, and 70% every day in my 55 gallon fry, juvi grow out tank.

Good luck and welcome to the addiction!

Al Light

That sounds pretty easy.
Do you know approximately how much a setup like that would cost? (Add a few bucks - I'm canadian lol)

[Alight]

The bins are less than $5 each on sale (at Wall Mart or other Big Box stores).
The pump was about $50. I use a good garden hose ($15) on the pump side --it crimps much less easily, and a cheap garden hose for the syphon side ($5 on sale). These are both 100 footers. If you have more or less distance to go, buy a more appropriate length hose.

Bump everything up 50% for prices Canadian.

The key here is the waterfall pump. It has enough pressure an volume to quickly fill a tank that is 14-20 feet above the water source. Most mag drive pumps won't do this, except those that are quite expensive. The waterfall pump is also rated for contact with water in which fish live (pond pump rated). It can fill a 55 gallon tank in less than 15 minutes from my basement.

The whole deal is less than the cost of 3 discus fish.

[Carol_Roberts]

. . . .I mix hot and cold to fill my barrels - I have a well and have not had any problems . . .

[Willie]

I go straight from the tap into the tank, mixing hot/cold water.

Willie

[Moon]

When you are ready for discus get them Barb. She is in Burlington close to you and has some real nice fish.
Joe

[traco]

I also got my discus from Barb Newell. A great person and a caring breeder. I also ordered a lot of my equipment from Dan at www.mops.ca They are in Hamilton; don't know how far that is from you. Big Al's is another online place to order stuff from.

I started with juveniles and they are now a year old. I'm doing water changes almost daily, sometimes 2 days but for the most part, daily. I still feed four times a day so I keep up with the water changes to be on the safe side.

Getting your discus from sponsors and breeders here is also the best way to go. Cheaper than LFS and way, way healthier. You'll not regret it going that route.

You found a great forum here; it kind of becomes your "second" family. :sun:
Great people and great advice and knowledge here.

[alpine]

That mixing hot-cold water from the tap sure comes in handy :)

roberto.

[alpine]

More water change info and opinions.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=48117

roberto.

[Moon]

I agree with Barb MOPS is good for meds and quick service. I found that Jehmco prices are much better. I recently ordered some HBH flake food at a very reasonable price and customs did not charge duty.
Joe

[kakes11]

I was just wondering how long does it take to age the water in the bins before it can go stright into the tank? Why use hot water? Pardon me but i am inexperienced. :p

[Carol_Roberts]

It depends on how hard your water is and how much CO2 is disolved in it. The best way to test is to set the barrel up with what ever you are going to use for a heater and to agitate (aerate) the water. Test the pH every hour until it is about the same pH as the tank water. If it takes more than 3 hours you need more agitation or circulation of the water.

[kevinattwyford]

Hi There!

I have over recent weeks noted your various threads related to water changes and have in my mind a picture of thousands of Americans sloshing about with buckets and barrels, damp carpets, broken marriages and extremely happy fish.

I'm just coming back to discus keeping after a long absense and slowly crawling up the learning curve of water management again. The view of a lot of breeders over here (UK) is that although not providing a quality input gal for gal, constant feed to overflow is preferable to bulk changes because it eleiminates any fluctuation and saves a lot of bl**dy hard work. The norm is to trickle HMA filtered water straight into the tank at a rate that the in tank heaters can keep up with. Or if in a hard water area a mix of RO and HMA to a TDS to match that which the fish "were raised in".

Over here our mains hardness can vary between 50 and 450ppm ( those are the highest and lowest figures I've seen quoted by hobbyists ) and I wonder how your water supply varies from region to region and how you adjust the vast amount of water you seem to be using?

[CliffsDiscus]

Waterchanges are confusing I work in five different counties in the Bay Area,
and each area the waterchanges are different, they vary from 20 percent
to 80 percent waterchanges. You may want to check with a local Discus
breeder in your area, ask one of your LFS if they know of any Discus breeders,
also check with your local Fish Clubs they usually have good sources.

Cliff

[Alight]

Cliff has hit an important issue on the head. The quality of your water does have a lot to do with how often you have to change your water. This is both because some "bad" things may already be in your water and accumulate, more. It may also be because you have relatively little "good" things in your water and they get used up.

Another factor may be "bad" things that you can't remove from your water and don't accumulate. These things may weaken your fish so they cannot tolerate the accumulation of nitrates DOCs and other agents that fish not exposed to these "bad" things could tolerate much higher levels of. Similarly, you may have a "weak" strain of fish, or fish with chronic diseases that don't get sick if they have frequent water changes, but do if you back off your changes.

For these reasons, the "correct" amount of water to change varies considerably from place to place, and from fish to fish.

With experience, as others have noted here, you will eventually figure out how much you have to change to keep the fish you want to keep healthy.

[Kweenshaker]

That mixing hot-cold water from the tap sure comes in handy :)

roberto.
not if you have nasty things coming from your hot water heater.

One of the first things I learned in environmental science was to NEVER drink water from the hot water tap.

I guess in new houses, it is different....but this house is over 100 years old and the hot water heater is at least half that.

[Kweenshaker]

When you are ready for discus get them Barb. She is in Burlington close to you and has some real nice fish.
Joe

Yes, I've already made contact with her. From what I've read here and from the pictures on her website, her fish look and sound wonderful. It's nice to see someone who cares so much about the hobby and it's especially nice that she is only about an hour away from me!!

I would only consider getting discus from a breeder though - I avoid pet stores on a good day, let alone a day I'm buying such an expensive/sensitive/special fish!! :fish:

[White Worm]

Cliffs the expert at least the one to listen to in my area because the water differs here in Northern Cali. In my zone, 70, 80, 90, 100% wc could equal 100% death, its happened :( . Our water is not the most discus friendly water around. Know your water first and then do your wc's accordingly.

[Kweenshaker]

Cliffs the expert at least the one to listen to in my area because the water differs here in Northern Cali. In my zone, 70, 80, 90, 100% wc could equal 100% death, its happened :( . Our water is not the most discus friendly water around. Know your water first and then do your wc's accordingly.

excuse my ignorance, but what is it that is so bad in your water? Is it just the pH and hardness or something completely different?

[White Worm]

Your city adds different chemicals to your water to clean their systems and pipes. Chlorine, chloramines etc. I'm no water expert, I just know that I killed 16 discus in 5 days after a 90% wc. They were perfectly healthy prior. I belive alot has to do with CO2 and proper gasoff when added to the tank, plus oxygen, new tap water isnt oxygenated unless you store, age, agitate and condition prior to use and then sometimes your water just sucks anyways. Cliff could probably tell you more because he takes care of many aquariums and has a discus hatchery. He knows a considerable amount more than a intermediate like myself. I just always give advice to check your water before large changes. Again, this is just my opinion anyway. The experts may have a different look or be able to explain it better. Mike

[Willie]

Cliffs the expert at least the one to listen to in my area because the water differs here in Northern Cali. In my zone, 70, 80, 90, 100% wc could equal 100% death, its happened :( . Our water is not the most discus friendly water around. Know your water first and then do your wc's accordingly.

Large water changes MUST require the addition of chemicals to neutralize chloramines and chlorines. There are many breeders in northern California making large water changes daily.

Willie

[hazeldazel]

i don't have discus, still doing research but have had other cichlids and been fish-keeping for several decades. Can someone explain to me why exactly one would store water before adding to the tank? Is there something specific in the tapwater that will go out if it is stored overnight? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I honestly want to know what is this mysterious thing that is in the water. The only time I've heard of such a procedure was in antique fishkeeping books back in the day when only chlorine was used where storing water for a few days sufficed to dechlorinate water.

[pcsb23]

i don't have discus, still doing research but have had other cichlids and been fish-keeping for several decades. Can someone explain to me why exactly one would store water before adding to the tank? Is there something specific in the tapwater that will go out if it is stored overnight? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I honestly want to know what is this mysterious thing that is in the water. The only time I've heard of such a procedure was in antique fishkeeping books back in the day when only chlorine was used where storing water for a few days sufficed to dechlorinate water.

Firstly welcome to Simply. There are a number of reasons to store water. A lot will depend on your particular circumstances. The principal reason I store water are:
1) To offgas excess CO2 and therefore stabilise the ph. Large ph swings cause stress to the fish - any fish not just discus!
2) To heat up to the same or very similar temperature that exists in the tanks. Again big temperature differences can cause stress.
3) To carry out any adjustments required, e.g. lowering ph or adjusting the conductivity/tds.

hth,
Paul.

[Alight]

One more reason: 4) to in gass O2.

This last one can be very important.

[White Worm]

There may be many that do large water changes in northern cali but dangerous straight from the tap regardless of what conditioner you add. Unless you are calling the city daily to make sure they are not adding extra things, all it takes is once to lose alot and change your mind about it. Until I can store the water and check before adding, I go straight into bucket now, with conditioner (prime) check then into tank. Better safe than sorry. Already been sorry once and I dont care to do it again. With tap, I wouldnt do more than 50% daily unless you are checking it carefully before adding and increase air.



Large water changes MUST require the addition of chemicals to neutralize chloramines and chlorines. There are many breeders in northern California making large water changes daily.

Willie

[Alight]

To age water or not?

Let's see--a storage container- 40-55 gallons, < $20; A pump with an airstone, <$8; a cheap heater < $20 = $48.

8 adult Discus > $400.

Hmmm, which should it be--storage, or straight from the tap?

[White Worm]

I agree totally that storage is better and worth it. My only problem is location for something like that not the $. For now, its tap but carefully.

[pcsb23]

One more reason: 4) to in gass O2.

This last one can be very important.
Agreed.

[pcsb23]

To age water or not?

Let's see--a storage container- 40-55 gallons, < $20; A pump with an airstone, <$8; a cheap heater < $20 = $48.

8 adult Discus > $400.

Hmmm, which should it be--storage, or straight from the tap?
Al,

Unbeatable logic.