Angel/Discus.. again

[AmberC]

Ok.. I've read prior posts about angels/discus...

I have 6 larger discus and two juvies.. some cardinals, rummy's and serpae's in my 125 gallon tank. I've always liked Angels, but never had one. I was thinking about getting a juvie angel for my discus tank. OF COURSE I would do a full month QT at least before adding to the main tank.

I read what others have said about angels being aggressive at feeding/breeding time, but I only plan on getting one angel and a young one at that. I think that would be fine for the discus, but my question is would that be ok for the angel? Would the angel get lonely or would it be fine with discus as company?

Amber

[traco]

I was wondering the same thing as I've got some angels who'll need to be downsized in my 65 and I wanted to put some in my discus tank also. Be interesting to see the replies here.

Wouldn't it come down to the individual character of the angel? As in some may be timid or may be aggressive. You don't want to put a passive fish with a aggressive fish?

I know Marie had tried putting her angel back in with the discus and the angel was ramming the discus so out she came again. She was bigger than the discus though (I think that's what happened ~ Marie, correct me if I'm wrong?)

[AmberC]

Yes I agree that a lot has to do with size and that particular fish's personality. Thats why I plan on getting a small angel and raising it in my discus tank and I figure it would be ok with them as it gets bigger?

Amber

[AmberC]

Ok.. well I picked up 6 more cardinals (cause I only had 3 lol) and a koi angel! Its so cute. They are acclimating right now so I'll get some pics in a bit. Gotta finish getting them settled in the QT.

Amber

[mench]

Ok Discus and Angels..I will answer again...of course it is just my opinion again and it has happened to me..
Angels and Discus do not mix well...not saying they will fight..but Angels are know to carry nasty things that don't seem to harm them,but will kill off a tank or two of Discus...I have had this happen more than once,I say more than once,because I was hard headed and didn't beleive that the Angels caused the problem...So three tanks of discus later...I am a believer!!!!
As I said you can do what ever you want I have know folks who keep them together with no problems...I just given the cost difference between Angels and Discus,I would keep them in seperate tanks.
Just my thoughts

Mench

[pcsb23]

This is one of those contentious issues, and I suspect that there is a significant amount of myth involved. This does not however decry anyones personal experiences. Angels are cichlids just like discus. Most are significantly more domesticated than discus have been. Some people, me included, have had bad experiences with them. In my case it was more down to inexperience than anything else. We live and learn, however it does tend to breed prejudice.

I do not believe in this mystery illness or disease that angels carry and are immune to and discus sucumb to. It is not logical and does not makes sense. As far as I am aware there is only anecdotal evidence supporting such claims.

What I do believe however is that a singleton angel will tend to be more aggressive to other tankmates than a pair or a small school. Angels are competetive and can compete very well for food with most other fish, discus included. It is also true that angels will vigorously defend their patch particularly when breeding.

Almost any fish can be kept with discus, many of the reasons not to keep them with discus are down to the compromises necessary to make the tankmates comfortable at the discus's expense. Such things as temperature and ph for example. Angels live in very similar conditions to dscus so the compromises don't apply.

I suspect that many of the reasons why people have had issues with mixed tanks is down to poor qt routine and poor basic husbandry. Also as it is more difficult to spot when an angel is ill than a discus that disease recognitioin takes longer so is more advanced when recognised. Angels respond to the same treatments for the same ailments as discus do at the same dosages.

I have for a very long time chosen not to mix angels and discus, today I have changed that decision and bought 6 altums, which are in qt for now.

If you want to try and keep angels with discus do so, go for more than one, qt properly and be aware of the potential pitfalls. Base your judfgement on facts, not myths, and enjoy your tank.

[hexed]

Ok, I usually try to stay away from this debate but the thing that always comes to mind is this:
If I QT the angels and the discus or any fish for that matter and treat for internal and external parasites why would an angel still carry "nasties"? They have somekind of parasite that the meds do not kill? This is the question that keeps coming to mind when I hear about Angel fish carry a "nasty" bug. What is this bug called? I hear a lot of people talking about it but if it is true there has to be something that gets rid of "the bug"
Frank

[Kindredspirit]

If you want to try and keep angels with discus do so, go for more than one, qt properly and be aware of the potential pitfalls. Base your judfgement on facts, not myths, and enjoy your tank.



Well said ~



Marie~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[traco]

And if you have angels and then angel fry, after worming, etc... those young angels could go in a discus tank? I agree with what Paul says about it comes more down to poor QT and poor basic husbandry.

I always wondered if you had home bred discus and home bred angels, no sickness and treated for parasites, you could put them together? And of course, watching for aggressiveness.

You got just one baby koi angel, Amber? Hmmm...., a couple more would be better for schooling so off to the pet store you should go.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_5_125v.gif

[AmberC]

Well when I started this topic.. It wasn't to talk about the "Myths" of discus and angels. I read about all of that in other threads here. I understand where people stand on the subject. But thats NOT what I wanted to know. I had a specific question. So can we get off the debate now? I wanted to avoid that, hence my posting that I read the other topics.....

Barb.. with my luck tho.. I'm going to end up with a pair and I'm afraid they will beat up on my discus. Cause theres something in my water promoting that horny hormone. I'd really rather stick with one if its possible. I can always get more. Will the angel not schoal with my discus if hes raised with them?
Amber

[hexed]

Amber,
I am not saying not to, I acually say go for it!! LOL Just be sure to properly QT the angels (I would say at least 2 or more).
I have had the following in with my discus:
Green Spotted Puffer
Bichir (Dinosaur Eel)
Fiddler Crabs
Apple Snails
Tire Track Eel (out grew the tank)
and an eel that looked like it had big teeth and do not know the name LOL
I have never had a problem with them living together in my 55 gallon. But I will say this ~ Do not put snails and fiddler crabs in with a puffer LOL My puffer NEVER touched my Discus, but he did eat the fiddler crabs and the HUGE snail LOL :(
Frank

[AmberC]

Thanks Frank...

I am QTing the angel for at least a month. When I hit a month I will see how it looks and go from there. Unless you guys think a longer QT period is needed?

Frank.. I think that is a combination not a lot of people could pull off!! :) Good for you!
Amber

[traco]

I QT'd my cories for a month before putting in the tank. They came from a home breeder so my way of thinking was, they have not travelled around much like the LFS stock does.

With these rams I have, I'm going to go 6 weeks cuz they did come from a LFS.

He/she should do fine being the smaller and brought up with the discus. Are you going to treat for anything before adding to the discus? I'll be interested to see what the consensus is for treatment.

And, yes, I knew you had done your reading before posting the question.;) It sure brings out the sword again, though, heh? Pros/cons for angels and discus. How come there is no horror tale about putting rams and discus together? They are also the cichlid family. And again, QT'ing a long time also before introducing to a discus tank.

And waiting patiently for pics, ma'am. Well, I guess tomorrow is okay. First, looking after two little sick ones takes precident.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Amber ~


I am not sure I saw a debate going on.....did I miss something? I would qt for 6 weeks....everything...not one day less ~ IMO~



Marie~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[candyl70]

Well when I started this topic.. It wasn't to talk about the "Myths" of discus and angels. I read about all of that in other threads here. I understand where people stand on the subject. But thats NOT what I wanted to know. I had a specific question. So can we get off the debate now? I wanted to avoid that, hence my posting that I read the other topics.....


You doing ok woman?! There was a little snappishness that I detected.... :(
Your angel won't be lonely, but he may steal all of your discus's food... but like Marie said, a full 6 week qt is the minimum. Hope you are doing alright!

[AmberC]

I'm ok Candy.. I wasn't snapping.. Sorry if it came off that way. I just didn't want to talk about the "myth" of the "angel mystery disease".. I had a specific question and it had nothing to do with the myth so I didn't want any of that brought up.

I apologize if I came off snappy. Maybe I am a little touchy. I dont normally get much sleep, but with my kids and husband being sick I have gotten even less. Cleaning up throw up and poo in the middle of the night isn't exactly fun. :(

Ok I will QT longer. Yesterday the angel and the cardinals would freak out when I tried to turn the light on in the tank (about 2hrs after they went in) so I decided to just leave em alone so no pics yesterday. But after I get the kiddo breakfast I'll get some! I also put a blue background on my discus tank so I'll be taking some pics of them as well :)
Amber

[AmberC]

Ok you guys.. here are a few pics of the angel
http://www.simplycichlids.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378
Amber

[Kindredspirit]

I know Marie had tried putting her angel back in with the discus and the angel was ramming the discus so out she came again. She was bigger than the discus though (I think that's what happened ~ Marie, correct me if I'm wrong?)


That is so funny you brough that up, Barb! I was just thinking of when I did that ~ Amber, my first two fish were Ms. Pringles and Ms. Splotches from our lfs ~ they were great together for a long time but then I got more discus and of course got paranoid re the 'hidden diseases' they may carry ~ I moved her to a tank with other fish ~ Once, I put her in with the older discus, as Barb said, they are all the same size and she was such a *****! She rammed them once too many and out she came! And she grew up with them, or at least one of them~

So all ya can do is play it by ear and keep an eye on them! After qt, put her in with some her own size if you have ~ take it from there...



hth,



Marie~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[marilyn1998]

Amber that koi is gorgeous!! I love angels, specially koi and pearl marbles.
What is the background on that tank??? I love it!

[AmberC]

And she grew up with them, or at least one of them~

So all ya can do is play it by ear and keep an eye on them! After qt, put her in with some her own size if you have ~ take it from there...



hth,



Marie~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

Removing her for a bit is probably what caused the change. She got used to being the only big un in the tank and didn't like having the competition. At least thats how it would seem to me.

Yes I am planning on playing it by ear and just seeing how it goes. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But I think it will :)
Amber

[AmberC]

Amber that koi is gorgeous!! I love angels, specially koi and pearl marbles.
What is the background on that tank??? I love it!

Thank you :) There actually is no background on the tank lol. Just the wall behind it. But I'm glad you like my walls! ;) :p
Amber

[traco]

Naaaa.... I didn't think you came across as snappy. You asked a specific question pertaining to your tank setup and inhabitants. Nothing wrong with that.

She/he is a tiny little thing and a darling. I like the markings on her/him. And as small or even smaller than the cardinals, it looks like?

Do the girls like her? Have they picked a name out?

[AmberC]

Thanks Barb. Crista loves "her" (lol) She did pick a name, but I just cant seem to remember right now. Megan likes all the fish. She is tall enough now that she can reach the glass so when the fish come to the bottom to look at her, she tries to grab them and when she cant.......she starts to bang. lol We are working on that one. She thinks its a game tho. She bangs and Mommy says "No no." She laughs and shakes her head "No" then bangs some more. :p The fish dont mind TOO much, but I'm working on it lol.
Amber

[Kindredspirit]

Removing her for a bit is probably what caused the change. She got used to being the only big un in the tank and didn't like having the competition. At least thats how it would seem to me.


Amber



Amber ~ I didnt move her for a bit, silly! It was months!! Exactly, she wanted to be the biggest~ hence ~ put your baby angel with same size as suggested!



Marie~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[AmberC]

She wasnt moved fora bit....it was like months and months~lol!

lol well thats what I mean. Taking her out of the "discus" environment "changed" her personality so when she went back in "fish years" later, she was like HEY.. I'M the Queen Bee here and your gonna listen to ME. lol
kwim?
Amber

[Kindredspirit]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_1.gif

[AmberC]

Do the girls like her? Have they picked a name out?

Ok.. its coming to me. I believe she named her Sweetheart Angel. I would ask her, but she threw a fit because she couldn't get her sock on right so I had her go sit on her bed for a "time out" not as punishment, but so that she could calm down and now shes asleep lol. I knew she was tired. Hence the fit!
Amber

[JeffreyRichard]

Ok, I usually try to stay away from this debate but the thing that always comes to mind is this:
If I QT the angels and the discus or any fish for that matter and treat for internal and external parasites why would an angel still carry "nasties"? They have somekind of parasite that the meds do not kill? This is the question that keeps coming to mind when I hear about Angel fish carry a "nasty" bug. What is this bug called? I hear a lot of people talking about it but if it is true there has to be something that gets rid of "the bug"
Frank

These are the same people who would treat a head-ache with leeches ....

[JeffreyRichard]

Ok Discus and Angels..I will answer again...of course it is just my opinion again and it has happened to me..
Angels and Discus do not mix well...not saying they will fight..but Angels are know to carry nasty things that don't seem to harm them,but will kill off a tank or two of Discus...I have had this happen more than once,I say more than once,because I was hard headed and didn't beleive that the Angels caused the problem...So three tanks of discus later...I am a believer!!!!
As I said you can do what ever you want I have know folks who keep them together with no problems...I just given the cost difference between Angels and Discus,I would keep them in seperate tanks.
Just my thoughts

Mench

They are NOT known to carry nasties ... to be KNOWN this would have to be scientifically proven. Your experience is anocdotal. I am not doubting you had a problem with your discus. HOWEVER, I challange your conclusion that angelfish carry a mystery disease ...

[JeffreyRichard]

Amber ... check out my thread ...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=47668

[lemurtx]

I have a related question. I had a tank do a near-crash--managed to get all the fish out. I have two discus temporarily in a 20L, and have a 55 gal. that currently holds three small angels, one large, and two male rams. Can I temporarily--day or two--put the discus (about 3-4 in.) in with the angels until I can get their tank up and running again?
thanks...Oh, about QT-- the angels have been in this tank for two weeks now since the auction. I've had the two rams in with them since Thursday, and previously they had only danios in with them. Maybe I shouldn't risk it?

thanks!
Yvonne