Frustrated by anti-social discus

[RockRiverfish]

OK - I'm new to keeping discus, but thought I had enough info to be succesful. Maybe I was wrong. Sorry for the very long post, but I needed to "blow off some steam".

Background - I purchased eight 2.5" to 3" blue snakeskins from a local breeder almost three months ago. I am confident that they were good fish from the start. The first week was a bit hard on them, since I ended up moving them 3 times to accomodate emergency house repairs. Two of them developed Hex, which I thought I had treated properly thanks to the great information and assistance from posters on this site. I'm still on the fence about the whole "discus can be kept in hard / high ph water", but figured I would give it a try since so many have said it works for them.

Tank specifics - 90 gallon bare-bottom, Temp 84, ph 8.2, GH 300ppm, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5-10 ppm. 30% water change with aged water every other day. Two large sponge filters and an Aqua-Clear HOB filter.

Frustration #1 - After the two previously sick fish had apparently made full recoverys, both of them died mysteriously. No signs of anything wrong, and then floating the next morning. Each about a week apart.

Frustration#2 - Ever since I purchased these fish, they have been very shy. They refuse to come out into the open if anyone is near the tank, but will swim around playfully when I sit quietly on the other side of the room. They are in a bare-bottom 90 gallon tank. The back/ sides/ bottom are painted, and there are no decorations in the tank. They just hang out behind the sponge filters or under the heaters (not huddled together as if they were sick, just hiding). I did put a few pieces of driftwood in the tank for about two weeks to see if they would feel more secure, but that had no effect. There is very little activity in the room, since it's just me and the wife.

Frustration #3 - They are obviously eating, since they seem to be slowly growing, and I see normal poop from time to time. However, they don't rush out to eat. I toss some food in, and eventually they get around to eating it. This is only if I leave the room, or sit very still on the far side of the room. I made it a point to buy the same foods the breeder had been feeding, and have tried several others to see if I could tempt them.

Frustration #4 - I have wanted discus for a very long time (15+ years), but was afraid of failure. I guess that being able to keep six of them alive and seemingly healthy is a start, but why bother if all I do is stress about them? I have several other tanks of various species that bring me alot of enjoyment, and a long list of species that I would love to add to my collection.

I hate to give up since I have wanted them for so long, and I hate to say this, but sometimes I actually think it would be easier if they all just died. Then I could chalk it up to a bad experience, go back to the belief that discus cannot be kept unless you have perfect conditions (ie like all the books say), and move on to something else.

That really isn't an option since I am a firm believer in being a good steward of the animals I keep, so I guess I will have to find a solution. My next step is to buy some "dither" fish (maybe rams or cardinals) and add them to the tank (after proper quarantine) to see if this can encourage the discus to come out of hiding. They seem happy and healthy, just very anti social towards me.

Thanks for listening, and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[toomanyfish]

hi iam no expert or anything but there are couple of things you can try that worked out well for me...
one is keep the lights of the tank off...at least for a couple of days.
and the second thing is stop feeding them for a couple of days..and after that feed them very sparingly...once they start thinking "you=food" they will run out and greet you...
Try it out it might just help...since you say they are eating and pooping i dont think they are sick or anything

[keno]

Dont be discouraged about whats happening to you, I suspect it has happened to everyone starting out with discus.

Once discus get spooked it can be hard to bring them around to your presence in the room. Something wrong in the water can spoke them or shadows and light can play havoc with them, or stray voltage from a filter or heater, so many things. My first batch of discus did this years ago. I found that if i wore a black or dark shirt and approached the tank the would go bannanas! I soon figured out that if i wore white or a very light colored shirt and appraoched they were absolutley fine, this went on for a year, and yes it was frustrating, I still have no solid explanation for this behavior.

In your case i would increase your temp to 86-88f, this will speed up their metabolism and they may feel and increased desire to eat and may not feel so shy when you're in the room.

Second get some live food, ie adult brine shrimp or california black worms, sit in front of your tank when feeding and stay there, this takes alot of time but you must get them conditioned to you being the sorce of food. I used to sit for 1/2 hour at a time when feeding, sooner or later they will come around if your water is ok. Try to be active in the room alot, get them used to people moving around.

3rd, i would do daily water changes of aged water with temp and ph the exact same as your tank. I am a big believer in aging the water, so many things can go wrong with straight tap, and its to late when its in your tank with the discus.

Whats your ph out of the tap? what is it when it settles for 24 hours? do you age the water? Perhaps you are getting a big ph swing, discus absolutley hate this, at least mine did years ago, until i started aging my water.

Hang in there, this happens to all of us at one time or another, learning this hobby can be frustrating at times but when you learn the right things to do(somethings work for some people that wont work for others)they start to come around and grow into adults, this is when it is so much fun, hang in there :)

Ken

[KIWI13]

Discus take time to settle in and it takes alot of patience to get em to settle in the right way.. Have a beer and relax. let em work out the frustrations lol.

I say don't worry too much and give em good clean water (and lots of it) and good food and things will work themselves out..

Good Luck

Jason

[Jarrod]

Hi...don't give up on them yet...there will be alot of good advice given and lots of questions asked about your setup...which in your original post will help considerably. You said the backs and sides of the tanks are painted...is it possible that maybe shadows from something in the room or outside a window are moving and spooking them and upsetting them that way? Sorry I'm no real help at all but hang in there and keep the faith...best of luck and hope you get it figured out.
Jarrod

[White Worm]

I too have noticed that they react differently to color of clothing that I wear. White under shirt and they come running to greet me. Darker shirt, they are more spooked. Interesting? Just my imagination?

[RyanH]

Jarrod could be on to something.

From personal experience I can tell you that Discus can get very spooked by shadows and lighting in the room. If a tank is facing a window and they can only see your sillouette, they will very likely freak out whenever you come into the room. I NEVER have tanks facing windows anymore for just this reason.

Discus also seem to feel more secure when they are a little higher off the ground. This may be due to us not looking as large to them when we move around the room. In my perfect fishroom, I'd have all my tanks at shoulder to eye level. Breeding pairs would be over my head.

I think somebody else mentioned this but stray voltage from a heater can also make your fish very jumpy. You might want to try swapping heaters for a few days to see if this helps.

As for the mysterious deaths, I'd do a preventative treatment on the survivors for parasites. Praziquantel works well and is mild on your fish. I will often dissolve pure prazi in formalin which will help with external bacterial infections and flukes.

hth:)
-Ryan

[Dissident]

I bet i got the same discus fromt he same local hobbiest breeder as you did.
(Waukesha area?)

I haven't had any of the issues you have had however. Looks like you are maintaining the tank just fine too. I have mine in a planted tank (110gal) versus a BB, with CO2 and ferts etc (not that you should be doing that).

The only time they seem to spook is after Large WC ~50% or more and might be a little shy for the rest of the day or untill I feed them again. Doing waterchanges with lights out will help, you can also try putting a sheet over the front of the tank so they dont see you doing it.

I got them when they were ~2"-2.5" back in Jan and now they are quite large. Color has taken a while to develop. They eat like pigs, I have been feeding them bloodworms, brine shrimp, Myise Brine Shrimp, BH, tetra bits. (I feed them a lot and often) I can hear them snapping at the food.

They are in a high-traffic location, bottom of the stairs by the front-door so they get people walking by all the time. That helps discus become more tollerant of people.
Also when you feed stand there and let them eat as they can see you and will associate people with food. If this is the same guy he kept the tanks in the basement with little-no traffic other than him durring feedings so they will be a bit shy.

[Ryan]

A couple things you can try.

First, raise the temperature a little bit. I keep young ones at 86 - 88F. Their metabolism will speed up a little making them more hungry (and also more active). This should encourage them to eat a little better.

Eight babies that small in a 90 gallon might have something to do with it. Discus feel secure in numbers. If the fish were purchased from a breeder where they were in a tankful of siblings, then tossed into a huge open tank with only 8 fish, it probably was very scary for them. They're in a new place and they're not sure what is going on.

You said there isn't much activity in the room, which might also be part of the problem. I found that discus in low traffic areas were more shy than discus in high traffic areas. I'm guessing this is because with constant traffic, the fish eventually get used to visitors and passers-by and they find their comfort zone. If you're only peeking into the tank once in a while they probably never know when to expect it and are frightened.

As another post said, associate yourself with food. If the fish come out and swim around and eat/play while you're not around, it sounds like they're healthy... just skittish. Here's what I would do:

Turn your temperature up to about 88F. Skip feeding and water changes for a whole day. Move around the tank as you normally would (don't tip-toe around or try not to disturb them, they have to get used to your routine). After a full day with no food, turn the lights on in the morning (when they're hungriest) and sit in front of the tank. Drop in some food and just wait. Eventually someone's going to get hungry and come forward to find a snack.

If you get the fish to come out and eat, they'll eventually learn to be comfortable around you. Don't get discouraged -- the first few times you do this, they're going to freak out at any sudden movement and dart back toward the sponges. But you slowly gain their trust.

I've had a lot of skittish discus, some took much longer than others. I often found tank size to be a factor. A few small discus in a huge tank seemed to cause problems for me because they didn't feel secure. Is it possible to put them in a smaller tank, or maybe add a divider to shrink their surroundings? That may help a little.

Ryan

[RockRiverfish]

Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement everyone. I was just kind of fed up yesterday, and needed to vent. I have tried just about everything mentioned in the above posts (low/no light, exchange equipment, sitting in front of tank at feeding, etc), without much improvement. I do age water since it comes out of tap at ph 7.4, and make sure temp matches. The idea of the tank being too big didn't really cross my mind, but it makes sense. As does shadows/silouttes from windows. The tank is directly across the room from a set of widows, but this is the only spot that works, so I make sure to keep blinds closed, but light does come through.

Dissident - I believe this is the same breeder, and I just want everyone to know that I have the utmost confidence that these were good fish that I bought. The parents were spectacular, and he was very helpful throughout my purchase. Mine do show some nice pattern and coloration starting, it's just that I would like to see them more often to appreciate it.

I will just have to keep trying, and give them some more time. At least I can be happy that they seem to be generally healthy.

Thanks again

[RockRiverfish]

When I logged in tonight, I got a message (box on top of screen) encouraging me to post since I haven't been very active recently. I don't want to be a deadbeat, so I thought I would update this thread.

Well it's been almost two months, and there has been some progress. About a month ago, I moved the discus into a 72 gallon bowfront in another room, and added 10 Rasbora borapetensis (brilliant Rasbora) as dither fish. Well these guys are a bit more active than I thought they would be, but they don't seem to bother the discus at all.

The discus have become a bit more social now. They still shy away from me when I come near the tank to feed, waterchange, etc. But usually come right back out once I back away. At least I can see and enjoy them now. They are growing slowly and colors aren't coming out as quickly as I would have expected by this age, but they seem healthy. Eyes are red, no stress bars showing, normal poo, etc. I guess I will just have to see what happens over the next few months.

Thanks again for all your support.

[Greg Richardson]

Until they are all the way social make sure your sponges are wedged in the corner to prevent hiding. After that move them out to prevent food from getting stuck behind.

[pcsb23]

Probably been suggested before, but just drop a little food in every time you go past or up to the tank.

[AmazonRainbows]

I conditioned all my Discus like pavlov dog's.
http://nobelprize.org/medicine/educational/pavlov/readmore.html

Really work's out form me. Takes 3~7 days for new Discus to understand the house rules.

I gently knock in the glass with my finger nail before each feeding time. I stay in front of the tank for the entire feeding time. Other then nervous day's everytime they play the shy game I cut the food. A week or two and they learn the lesson very weel.

@+

[Riche_guy]

when I read your first thread I thought I had wrote it. My fish went from being a little shy when I first got them, hiding and returning when I was at a distance.They then became more sociable. I left for a 3 week work trip and on my return they would not come out of hiding. It was very fustrating. I later added new fish from my quarantine tank and miraculously a week later the fish remained in the open, Now the were sociable. Out of the many fish I had in the past, Discus have very strange unpredictable behaviours. I guess those are the things that make discus a little more difficult to keep.

[poconogal]

I got some Discus 13 years ago, two 6 inch adults and three 3 inch juvies. The two adults were wild crosses and the 3 juvies were red turqs. All were purchased from Petland Discounts (not considered the best place to buy, but these Discus were actually nice and round, very healthy and pretty). My 45 gallon tank was in the kitchen where there was always someone walking by the front of the tank, including a big dog and a cat. I spent many hours while at home, sitting at my kitchen table watching the tank, from about 5 feet away. My juvies, from the very beginning, were very friendly and curious, and exhibited no shyness whatsoever. The two adults very quickly came around also.

Now, the opposite end of the spectrum. :p I've begun keeping Discus again, a few months ago. The same 45 is in my living room, on a side wall. There is no pass-by traffic in front of the tank, only to the distant side. Also, they can see me when I am in the room, but at a distance. I do look into the tank often, though. As others have mentioned, I too have noticed that if I'm wearing a dark color, the Discus hide. If wearing bright or white, they are much less nervous. However, in general, I feel that these Discus are much more anti-social and skittish than the Discus I kept years ago. I wonder if part of the reason is that all of the breeding to get all the patterns/colors is resulting in more skittish strains? The other thing is that I can no longer easily sit in front of the tank like I used to. I believe that doing that helped a great deal, as they saw me sitting by the tank very often. When I got the first 3 of these new Discus, I did spend several hours one day just sitting in a chair that I moved to the front of the tank. That definitely did seem to help those 3, as after I did that, they no longer swam behind a plant to hide when I approached. They were cautious at my approach, but stayed out in the open. Also, I always stay in front of the tank all through feeding, by dropping little bits of food in, and when they eat that, drop a little bit more in, and so on. They will now eat from my hand (or eat my hand, if given the opportunity!) :D

[White Worm]

I have found that they do not like dark clothing. This reasoning doesnt come up much but I think it has alot to do with their behavior when they are approached. If I am wearing dark colors, they scare and run a little. If I have on light clothing, they are not nervous at all.