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traco
04-05-2006, 03:50 PM
I have been battling ich or fungus with these rams since Mar. 17th.

I used Quick Cure till the 25th, then large water change/carbon and added Melafix/salt for 5 days.

Mar. 30th another large water change, added Maroxy for 3 days for fungul, ich still present so wanted to treat that and used Formalin 3 (which states it treats ich and fungal).

20 gallon BB tank, temp 84, started Formalin 3

April 2, 2 tsp for the 20 gallons
April 3 80% water change, added 3 tsp. Formalin
April 4 80% water change, added 4 tsp. Formalin (now showing a trace of ammonia, between 0 and .25
April 5, 80 % water change, added 4 1/2 tsp. Formalin.

The first picture is March 29 after the 5 days of Melafix.
,http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49104

traco
04-05-2006, 03:54 PM
This second picture was taken today, April 5. Have been on Maroxy and now Formalin 3.

As you can see, there is no improvement in the size or shape of this stuff. It definately does not look fuzzy, still looks like someone glued some chunks of rock salt to the fish.

Nothing is kicking this as the two photos are pretty much identical. I would think after all this time there would be some diminishing or improvement.

pcsb23
04-05-2006, 04:09 PM
Barb,

No I wouldn't just yet. The one pictured still looks to have good enough condition to survive and grow. I would treat with formalin and malachite green together and rasie the temps towards 90f. Watch your bio filter though as it may not cope. The other thing I would do now is give them a salt bath, 2 tablespoons in a gallon of tank water in a clean bucket with an airstone. If they go on their side net them out and back in the main tank, otherwise leave them in it for 20 minutes.

hth,

traco
04-05-2006, 05:06 PM
Thanks, Paul.:o I was just getting so discouraged after all these meds and no progress in the spots. This is the worst looking of the bunch but they are all eating, swimming etc...

So, I should go get some malachite green to add along with my Formalin 3? Or should I use the Quick Cure again which has those two ingredients in it already? I originally used the Quick Cure in the beginning. And the bio is showing some ammonia which I should be able to help by doing water changes of the 80% daily?

With the salt bath, I would do one fish at a time and would I do all of them or only the worst looking ones?

I am away from Sat. morning till Sun. night and have someone coming to feed the tanks but no water changes. I could get her to add medicine if needed but will the tank be okay with no meds or water changes for the weekend till I get back?

AmberC
04-05-2006, 06:32 PM
I agree.. dont put em down yet. You said they swim and eat just fine. I still think you can get rid of it too.

I think the tank will be ok. Just do a LARGE w/c before you leave and leave a note to NOT feed that tank. Any food in there will dirty up the water and since shes not doing a w/c we dont want excess dirt in there. They will be fine for the weekend with no food. Its actually good for fish to fast sometimes.

Amber

candyl70
04-05-2006, 08:30 PM
Barb,

Can you get ahold of some Prime? That will neutralize the ammonia and any nitrite that may accumulate while you are gone. It's not too pricey and you don't have to use much of it at all. Hope you start to see some progress soon.


Candy

traco
04-05-2006, 11:11 PM
Well, I did the 2 Tablespoons salt mixed in 1 gallon water and put the 3 worst fish in there for 20 minutes. Heavy aeration and they were fine for the 20 minutes. Then popped them back in the tank and everyone 3 hours later looks fine, no stress from that.

I do have Prime and add it each time I do a water change (I should double dose each now that I'm seeing some ammonia levels?) but when we leave on Sat. morning, I'll add a double dose in the tank. No feed for them for 2 days should be fine, thanks Amber, for that. And as you said, there'll be no food to pollute the water while I'm away.

I should keep dosing the Formalin (and find some malachite green) for the next 2 days or switch back to the Quick Cure?

Thanks all, for your replies. Gave me the little push/confidence to keep going on.:) :) And thank goodness, this tank is in a room all by itself so no worries about contamination to the other tanks. :p

ShinShin
04-06-2006, 01:36 AM
This is lymphocytosis and incurable. I've seen it many times. Kill them. Sorry.

Mat

pcsb23
04-06-2006, 09:56 AM
This is lymphocytosis and incurable. I've seen it many times. Kill them. Sorry.

Mat

Mat,

I'm seeking clarification here as I've not had much experience with lymphocytosis on fish. I know it is a viral infection but I thought it was only apparent on the skin and not the fins. Is this not the case?

If it is lymphocytosis then there is no known cure.

Thanks,

AmberC
04-06-2006, 11:10 AM
What exactly is lymphocytosis? I did a search, but came back with something on humans. Guess I could put in lymphocytosis in fish.

Also.. Barb said that there are two that are clear, two that are almost clear and the two worst ones are looking a little better too........ so maybe it is not this disease?

Amber

traco
04-06-2006, 11:15 AM
Oh jeez, I had a reply with respect to that! :(


lymphocytosis prehaps
no known cure and some fish given appropriate care and enviroment feeding etc will improve spontaneously

thought to be over reaction by the bodies defence tissue to some unknown viral organism possibly iridiovirus
more commonly recorded in marine fish
not thought to be high mortality

the myxozoan problems should be more o the musculature of the fish
bacterial granuloma's can occur
and also tumours


If this is true, it sounds like it is transferrable/transmissible. That could be why there has been no improvement with all the meds? And how do I know for sure, is no progress to good health a definate indication they have it? And some of the fish are clear, like Amber said.

pcsb23
04-06-2006, 12:20 PM
My limited understandin is that lymphocytosis is the over production of white blood cells. I believe it is caused by a virus. Viruses are contagious.

As a precaution I would not use the equipment that you use in the QT tank ina ny other tank. I would also make sure that you clean your hands diligently after you see to the QT tank. This is to avoid spreading it to your other fish.

If Mat is right then the best course of action would be to kill them. I would be tempted to use Formalin and Malachite green just in case he is wrong. With elevated temps and these two together a swift improvement should be seen. If they don't improve I would say that Mat is correct. I suspect he'd rather be wrong too!

hth,

AmberC
04-06-2006, 12:36 PM
I think that since there has been some improvement all we can do is hope for the best. Treat with the formalin and malachite that Paul suggested. I'm thinking that since some improved... its not.. but I dont know much about that disease. Never heard of it before now. I do hope it is not tho Barb!

Good luck!
Amber

traco
04-06-2006, 12:42 PM
Yes, me too.:( At least I have had them in a contained closed room away from my discus and angel tanks!! Used separate everything for them. If it goes this route, for sterilizing afterwards, a good bleach soak of the tank, throw away all the sponges, wipe down the heater and air dry and that hopefully will clean things up? The tank will not be used again for months, if that. I don't want to chance adding a disease to my tanks.

And so people, that is why you must quarantine. You would not want your discus or any other fish tank to get something like this in there and having to put fish down.

I did use the Quick Cure in the beginning which has formalin and malachite green in it and that did not get rid of this stuff. I did go up this morning and took another good look. There is no change for the spots getting smaller, still the same.

Thanks all, for your help, notes and info. Another learning curve and some info for anyone down the road if this ever shows up on their fish.

pcsb23
04-06-2006, 12:47 PM
Barb,

I'm glad you have good qt practice, and I bet you are too! If ever we need a reason to QT this must be one of the best. Bleach should do nicely for clean up, you can always put the sponges in the microwave soaking wet and on full power for 3 mins or so, mind they are cheap enough to just ditch.

I guess we've all learned a little form this, sorry it looks as though its not going to turn out too good.

traco
04-06-2006, 01:19 PM
I feel crummy but I would feel just sick if I had introduced this disease to my discus!

Kindredspirit
04-06-2006, 09:07 PM
Hey Woman~

Tell me... wld you ever put them in with anything else even if they did make a full visual recovery?


I wonder.......I do not know what I would do~I am so sorry for all of this, Barb~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

traco
04-06-2006, 09:13 PM
No, I wouldn't put them in with anything. And even if they breed, babies hatch, fry grow, they would be contaminated also, right?

I just don't have any luck with rams, it seems. Thought third time lucky, but more like unlucky.

Kindredspirit
04-06-2006, 09:55 PM
aww...your killin me here woman! I just had one of my babies die today ~ well ~ actually just found him dead~


Hope it is not the beginning of something.......



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

Ardan
04-07-2006, 06:02 AM
but I thought it was only apparent on the skin and not the fins.
It can be on the fins also according to Untergasser, but I have no experience with this disease.
Mat could be right.


Ardan

Kindredspirit
04-07-2006, 07:51 AM
Hey Barb ~ Check this out woman! I didnt have time to read it for you but let me know if this helps, okay?


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=+lymphocytosis+in+rams&btnG=Search



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_38.gif

traco
04-07-2006, 11:04 AM
Hi all. I stuck this note on my thread over on SC but wanted to post here also for others to read and learn.

No decreasing in the spot's sizes. I am going to put them down as there is no improvement. It's not worth risking my other tanks with the discus and angels in them. I wanted to put these rams with the discus and it's just not worth it.:( It was a hard lesson to learn especially when the general consensus for mixing anything with discus is frowned upon and now I can see why.

I'm going to clean out the tank, fill with fresh water and add bleach, let the filters run with nothing in them to clean them out well too.

Thank you all for your help.

Jarrod
04-07-2006, 11:22 AM
Barb...damn..sorry you are having to go thru this!! It sucks I know. I do have to agree with you on the nothing else with the discus..the ramifications or potential of introducing something bad to them just isn't worth it. Again sorry you have to go thru all this!
Jarrod

pcsb23
04-07-2006, 02:27 PM
Barb, if no improvement seen then sadly Mat was right. For what it is worth you are doing the right thing. Still it really stinks.

traco
04-07-2006, 04:14 PM
Well, it's done. :cry:

I've given the tank and all equipment a soak in a bleach solution, rinsed well and dried.

Buy healthy fish, hopefully from a home breeder, try and stay away from LFS stock and a long, long, long QT.

Again, thanks to you all for your comments and help. Appreciated even though the outcome was not what we wished for.

ItsGeoff
04-14-2006, 09:57 AM
you could have tried a saltwater bath.....

traco
04-14-2006, 11:47 AM
Geoff, I did try a saltwater bath and still no improvement.:(

pcsb23
04-14-2006, 06:39 PM
Barb,

I reckon you did all you could, experience can be a hard teacher, but they are lessons well learned.

You're right its not the outcome we wanted, but you did absolutely the right thing by qt'ing them, this is a real 'Reason To Do' case. We all get tempted no and again to cut short or not bother, hopefully everyone will take note!!

Don't feel bad about it, you made all the right decisions, that take wisdom and guts.

take care,

Jarrod
04-14-2006, 06:46 PM
as Paul said tho, you did everything you could and did it all the right ways Barb...sorry it turned out that way!!...it would NEVER be easy to have to make the kinds of decisions you had to make...and the only thing I can say is know in your mind and heart you did EVERYTHING possible to make it turn out in a way other than it did...and no one I don't think could do anymore than that...
Jarrod

traco
04-14-2006, 10:30 PM
Thank you, guys.:)