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AmberC
05-29-2006, 11:14 AM
I have a male ram that looks really fat. I accidentally overfed all my fish the night before last so i assumed it was bloat. He is the only one that is still suffering. I gave him some epsom yesterday, but there is no change. I KNOW he is a male for sure.. but he looks like he is full of eggs! His tummy should NOT be this fat.

I am going to put some prazi in there when I finish his w/c in a minute. Can I add epsom too? Just in case he does have worms to make sure he does not get blocked by them?

Thanks!
Amber

pcsb23
05-29-2006, 11:24 AM
Amber,

Prazi and epsom are safe to mix. Prazi will only deal with tapeworm.

AmberC
05-29-2006, 11:26 AM
Thanks Paul. Here is a pic of him. Any ideas for me? I am doing a huge w/c now. Just finished taking out the rest of the gravel. Been doing that slowly the last couple weeks. Its my 20 gallon QT tank.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/CristaMeganMommy/fatram.jpg

Amber

AmberC
05-29-2006, 11:28 AM
BTW.. Prazi is all I have right now. I have not seen any signs of worms. But I have also not seen him poo. Thats why I tried the epsom first yesterday.

Amber

pcsb23
05-29-2006, 11:39 AM
Amber, no further ideas, I'm no ram expert. He definitely looks fat though. If its bloat he should pass soon ish, I find somethimes upping the temp a little, say by 2 to 4 degrees f for a day or so helps with the digestion. Lets hopw the epsom does the trick. Have you any reason to suspect worms?

AmberC
05-29-2006, 11:47 AM
Paul,
Not really any reason to suspect worms.. but the female that I had posted about not too long ago.. she died. The one with the funny thing on her mouth here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=50769

and I had noticed that SHE was fat too, but I assumed it was eggs. Maybe I was wrong. I am looking at this male really closely and the scales under his belly are starting to stand up. I am hoping this is not dropsy. I had that once before on a guppy. Do you think its just cause hes swollen.

I am starting to think this might be more serious than I initially thought, since I lost that female and they were both in my discus tank :(

Do you think I should still prazi and epsom him?
Amber

pcsb23
05-29-2006, 12:28 PM
Amber,
I remember reading that thread and thinking most bases were covered. Just looked at it again and wondering if was viral/cancerous. Not sure that applies here though, unless there are lessions showing? I guess you will have just disposed of the other rams body? Only way to positively confirm dropsy I know of is disectomy (horrid but...). Ok is he swimming OK? or is abnormal? I would be tending away from worms at the moment, but would treat with the epsom anyways. So hold on the prazi. Is he in with discus now or in qt? If he's in qt when was he last with your discus? Sorry for the questions. Don't elevate the temps too high just yet, in case its bacterial.

AmberC
05-29-2006, 12:37 PM
Ack.. ok I went ahead with the prazi. :( I can do another w/c. He swims ok.. and I haven't fed him yet because I was afraid to if hes blocked up, but the last time he ate it was bws and he ate that. He seemed to have a hard time getting a worm down.. sucked in/spit out several times before it stayed in. But he DID eat it. Generally tho hes been hiding under plants and sitting right on the bottom of the tank. Looking very uncomfy.

Hes in QT by himself right now. Two nights ago. Yes I got rid of the other female :( Dont know if I'd know what to look for in disection anyways lol or even how to do it properly. Eek.

Thanks Paul
Amber

pcsb23
05-29-2006, 01:51 PM
Ack.. ok I went ahead with the prazi. :( I can do another w/c. He swims ok.. and I haven't fed him yet because I was afraid to if hes blocked up, but the last time he ate it was bws and he ate that. He seemed to have a hard time getting a worm down.. sucked in/spit out several times before it stayed in. But he DID eat it. Generally tho hes been hiding under plants and sitting right on the bottom of the tank. Looking very uncomfy.

Don't worry about the prazi won't harm just wanted to save your money.



Hes in QT by himself right now. Two nights ago. Yes I got rid of the other female :( Dont know if I'd know what to look for in disection anyways lol or even how to do it properly. Eek.

Thanks Paul
Amber
Ok thats good (qt). As for the disection its easy with dropsy. Not nice but when you gently cut the gut a lot of fluid comes out - eek indeed.

It sounds like it may be an internal bacterial infection. You may need some anti biotics to treat this, furan2 would be the best bet as its a powerful broad spectrum AB. Again though, I'm not a ram expert so diagnosis may not be the best.

AmberC
05-29-2006, 02:22 PM
Thanks for trying Paul.. even if your not a ram expert :) I still trust your judgement. I was starting to think along those lines myself anyways.. :(

I shall see how he does today with the prazi and epsom since I only did one epsom treatment yesterday anyways and if hes not better I'll see what I can get for antibiotics. I dont think my lfs here carries furan2, but I'm not sure. If not.. guess I'll be making an order.

Thanks Paul!
Amber

nolefan
05-29-2006, 03:41 PM
Amber,
I have used clout in the past with my african cichilds with some sucess but I also have killed a few using it.The problems was the same the fish would bloat and act like they were throwing up.Just from my experience.

Lee

lhforbes12
05-29-2006, 04:47 PM
</ begin rant> This is the third time I have tried to post to this thread and a (8^*(&*^%% thunder storm keeps knocking the power out Grrrrrrrrrrrr <end rant\>

Hi Amber,
I agree with Paul, I would try the epsom salt only. Two things though (which you probably already know) Rams are very short lived, 2 years is typical, 3 years is ancient, also rams (really all dwarf cichlids) prefer cooler temps at night (many keepers have 2 heaters just so they can accomodate this). If it were me I would PM Kenny and/or try here: http://www.apistogramma.com/cms/
I have gotten some great answers to questions from those folks. (don't be misled by the name it really should have been called "dwarfcichlid.com" IMO)

Larry

ps I'm sorry to hear about this guy and your female

AmberC
05-29-2006, 04:50 PM
Thanks Lee and Larry! I was hoping Kenny would come on too. There has been no change on this guy at all since I first noticed it :( The other two rams (one gold female, one blue female) both are fine. Discus all seem fine and the rest of the tetras and all them seem fine too. Keeping my eye on them all tho since two sick rams in about a week. :(

Amber

Kenny's Discus
05-29-2006, 05:31 PM
Hi Amber - although I breed rams I'm no expert when it comes to diseases of rams. That's why I didn't comment on your thread. IME I think anytime when you see bloat and if epsom salts don't relieve it, I tend to think you might have a case of internal bacteria infection. If it was due to the latter in most cases it's troublesome for me personally.

Since Paul is the expert(he always said he's not) here I would listen to him as I always, highly appreciate and trust his suggestions. And don't forget we have Al here who also breeds rams himself. PM Al Amber?

Hope your rams will recover soon Amber.

Kenny

AmberC
05-30-2006, 07:04 AM
Hi Amber - although I breed rams I'm no expert when it comes to diseases of rams. That's why I didn't comment on your thread. IME I think anytime when you see bloat and if epsom salts don't relieve it, I tend to think you might have a case of internal bacteria infection. If it was due to the latter in most cases it's troublesome for me personally.

Since Paul is the expert(he always said he's not) here I would listen to him as I always, highly appreciate and trust his suggestions. And don't forget we have Al here who also breeds rams himself. PM Al Amber?

Hope your rams will recover soon Amber.

Kenny

Thanks for popping in Kenny! I appreciate it. Paul has helped me a LOT. I tend to heed his advice, even if he says hes no expert. I had no idea Al breeds rams too! I did not pm him.

Sadly tho... the little guy was dead this morning when I came out. :( I am assuming it was more than bloat. The epsom and the prazi did nothing. Now I am nervous because they were in my discus tank!

Amber

Kenny's Discus
05-30-2006, 07:09 AM
You're most welcome Amber! I'm really sry to hear this. When you said the rams were in your discus tank, were they exhibiting bloat symptoms there initially? What about your other discus now? Do they look normal, or should I say, the same, to you now?

Kenny

Kindredspirit
05-30-2006, 07:25 AM
I am sorry chica ~ I never saw this thread ~ little self-involved as of late~


Hang in there woman!

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif

AmberC
05-30-2006, 07:25 AM
Yes the two rams exhibited signs in the discus tank first and were removded as soon as I saw it. I haven't inspected them yet, but just passing by the tank they seem fine. I will be keeping a very close eye on them.

Amber

AmberC
05-30-2006, 07:27 AM
I am sorry chica ~ I never saw this thread ~ little self-involved as of late~



Hang in there woman!



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif

Aww Marie that is ok. Your fish are a little worse off than mine.

Amber

pcsb23
05-30-2006, 09:40 AM
Amber, sorry he didn't make it. I know you will be doing, but just watch your discus a little more carefully for a day or two.