Murky Water-- HELP!!!!!

[marilyn1998]

OK here is as much background as I can give.

Established 90 gallon tank for 6 months, 6 weeks with plants.

Gravel: 1 inch of pebble rock. Plants are in pots full of this pebble rock and a root tab from Seachem.
Filter: AC110 and Penguin 350B
CO2: none added
Temp 84
Ammonia, NitrIte and NitrAte are 0. Phosphate is 1.0 KH is 6, GH is 9, PH is 7.6

Fish: 9 discus, 2 Kribensis, 3 Rams, 3 BN PLeco, 21 cardinals

WC every other day 30% from tap. PRIME added.

Filters cleaned once a month on rotating 2 week basis.

Plants: Red temple, Ludwigia Peruenis, 2 E. Bleheri, E. Osiris, E. Ozelot, Water Sprite, Ludwigia Repens, Crypt Wendtii, Moneywort?, 2 driftwood with Anubias Nana.

Lighting: Coralife 28w colormax and 28w 6700K, and Coralife Aqualight pc 65W colormx and 65W 6700k on legs.


All was fine for 3 weeks. I had 6 less plants and was using Flourish and Excel (1 cap each water change.) THen my smaller light went out on me, and I started dosing Flourish Nitrogen (2 caps first treatment, then 1 cap each WC in addition to the others). This was on 6-2, 6-4, and 6-6.

My water got murky and light green overnight. I did a 40% WC and only added prime on 6-7. Next day I added 6 more plants, and the little light was working again. I did a 95% WC. No ferts added. On 6-9, still murky water, so another 90% WC, no ferts. On 6-10 was started to get murky again so I did a 50% WC in the morning and added Flourish and Excel. In the evening water very murky, so did a 90% WC, no ferts.
Now today, water is about half as murky as prior days.

What do I need to do? Is it too much light?? Too little light? Or the ferts dosing that caused the imbalance?

I have ordered fert from Greg Watson so I can actually dose as the Rex Rigg site says and KNOW what I am dosing exactly as the Seachem is hard to figure out.

In this low tech tank, is 3x a week dosing what I need to start with?
Am thinking 3/4 tsp KNO3, 3/16 tsp KH2PO4, and 1/4 tsp K2SO4 each dose. Then 15 m trace and 4 ml iron 3x wk??

This murkiness is not a bacterial bloom.

I have ordered a Vortex XL Diatom Filter also. Hope this will help? Any suggestions? The more I read the more confused I get. Not being able to translate the dry ferts to the seachem products is frustrating.

How do I get rid of the murkiness? Do I need a 72 hours blackout? Lower Light? Higher light?

HELP!

[AmberC]

Marilyn, you said the water was light green? Is it green with the murkiness or was it just the one time it was green?

The reason I ask is that I was having terrible trouble with green water a while back. What happened was there was too much light and too much fertilizer and it was causing the green water for me. If you go back to this thread:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=46210

the second post I made has a pic of my tank back then and the "green water" I was experiencing. Is this what your tank looks like?

If so.. I'd recommend a black out and no more fert.

BTW.. I do not use fert at all on my tank. It gets enough light and fertilization from the fish that if I DO add it.. I end up adding too much food for the plants so the algae is able to take over.

hth!
Amber

[marilyn1998]

Amber what a great thread! I searched for 'green water' and came up with nothing like that! Thanks.

I ma off to yet another 90% WC. IT keeps it crystal clear until around noon, then slowly goes back to green and murky. Like yours, the end to end view is the worst. And the water is light green as it goes down the drain. The murkiness gets worse as the day goes on. I leave the light on from 7:30-10:00 pm. Gonna shorten that. I went back to work last week, so the length of time the light is on has changed. So has my feeding schedule. Too many changes in one week to pinpoint.
Guess I am just HATING the murky water. I know in time with the extra plants, the dry ferts, and the diatom filter I Will do better. BUT I NEED TO GET RID OF THIS CLOUDY SOUP!!!!!

akk!

[AmberC]

It so sounds like what happened to me. If you want to get rid of it QUICK! this is what *I* did and what I would suggest.

Cut the lights off completely.. keep the room as dark as possible until its gone. Stop the fert. and dont feed the fish for a couple of days because all of that is what the green water feeds off of. The fish will be fine for a few days without food and the plants will be fine too. They are hardy. Do the w/c as normal.. big.. daily.. and it should be gone quick.

I think what probably set it off is LOTS of light plus the added fertilizer.

Good luck!
Amber

Edit to add.. I know you have that sky light in the room too. My tank gets a TON of sunlight because of my front window.. indirect.. but light all the same. This, plus the tank lights, plus I was using fert too back then is what caused mine. NOW I do not use fert. Just tank lights that are on from 7am to 10pm on a timer and suglight. My plants grow like weeds.

[marilyn1998]

Here is the tank before the green water, with the lesser amount of plants:

[marilyn1998]

Here it is today. First picture shows the green water. You can barely see the filters in back

[marilyn1998]

In that pic above, my blue pair are dancing, :)

ANd here is the tank showing how murky, end to end...

[lhforbes12]

Marilyn,
Amber's advice will definately work. It's called doing a "blackout" and the usual way is to cover the tank completely with a blanket or something that light can't get through, and leave it on for 3 days. The green water was caused by stirring the substrate IMHO. Did you order the diatom? If you did don't do anything since the diatom filter will have it clear in a matter of minutes. I forgot to tell you that most people consider diatom filters to be "water polishers" and they do that wonderfully, but for me it's merely secondary to their actual usefulness.

[marilyn1998]

Yes I did order it. It should be shipping from Petsmart tomorrow. Hopefully will be here in 3 days. It was $10 cheaper there than Big Al's! NOw, about using it......... ;) I hope I can get it setup!

[Kindredspirit]

BUT I NEED TO GET RID OF THIS CLOUDY SOUP!!!!!

akk!


I agree!! Dontcha just hate it?? I had a prob with cloudy water and NOTHING helped so I got a HOT Magnum and cleared it up in hours if I remember ~

Not sure if what you are getting Sis is the same ~ nor was my water green ~ still tho end result is still HORRIBLE! lol!


Good luck woman ~ Amber seemed to hook you right up!



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_51.gif

[marilyn1998]

THanks Amber and MArie. I am gonna leave the lights out and keep the drapes closed until my diatom filter gets here. I am thinking with all the new light of summer, and then the added ferts, I overdid it.

Larry has me fixed up on the plants. And Amber on the lighting. And Marie, you are my conscience saying: PATIENCE!!!! and leave well enough alone!

I hate cloud soup!!!!!!!!!!:D

[lhforbes12]

Marilyn,
That reminds me! I would slow WAY down on the ferts, once or twice a week should be plenty with no CO2

[AmberC]

lol Marilyn.. it drove me nuts too! So I know how ya feel. So nasty looking! Mine got so bad that with your face pressed on the glass you could hardly see the fish at the back of the tank!!!!

It'll clear up tho :) Its just gonna be annoying as heck until it does :(

Amber

[marilyn1998]

Marilyn presses her nose against the tank and feels like she is in the clouds.

"Is it down yet?" :D :p

[Amh 1]

Go with the blackout method this will do the trick!

[marilyn1998]

I put a twin size conforter over the tank and it covers it fairly well. I am holding the sides together with chip holders. I am worried though that there wont be enough air for the filters, or it will get to hot. I keep peeking in to see if everyone is alive.

Am I being paranoid?? (dont tell me air stone, i have no pump.)

[pcsb23]

Marilyn, stating the obvious here but the balance has been upset. The balance consists broadly of 3 things, light, macro nutrients and micro nutrients. Whilst the blackout may well clear it for now, if you don't fix the underlying imbalance then it will re-appear, maybe not straight away, but trust me it will!

Ok looking at the first post, you state you have phosphates at 1ppm and nitrates at 0ppm. This is definitely an imbalance. It would seem that the plants are using the nitrates to quickly or more likely there is not enough. I have found that by dosing once weekly I never get or keep a tank in balance, either high tech or low tech. I would look to the ferts you have ordered and start increasing the amount or ratio of nitrates. You will need to re-dose after every w/c. With low tech tanks dosing after w/cs works ok, high tech its really got to be daily. You should be looking for 10ppm nitrates immediately after dosing after a w/c as a start point. The phosphate level looks ok if you can get the nitrates up. Dose a small amount of trace too, without them the plants cannot use the macros efficiently.

(you've probably guessed I don't like the blackout method!)

hth,

[marilyn1998]

Paul,
Thanks for posting! I think the trying to raise the nitrates with the Flourish Nitrogen is what got me so in trouble to start with. I have had alot of trouble figuring out the Seachem and that is why I ordered the dry ferts.
Here is my plan once I get the diatom filter and dry ferts in this week:

Daily dose with 5ml of Flourish Excel.

Sunday: Macro Dosing
1tsp KNO3, .5 tsp KH2PO4, 15 ml Flourish

Monday:
15 ml Florish with Trace, 4ml Flourish Iron.

This planted thing is harder to get settled than I thought!;) ;)

Actually, my green water wasnt too bad. I could still see through the tank, but barely. I figured I would be out of balance as I learned. My plan is to not let algae take hold. And to figure it out QUICK.

Thanks to all who are helping me! Thank the GODS OF DISCUS my babies are bigger... I cant imagine doing this with little ones!

[pcsb23]

Marilyn, I've never use the seachem nitrigen product so can't offer advice there. I'd be tempted to dose half of what you suggest on Sunday, the remainder on say Thursday. Also I'd be tempted to dose the flourish daily at smaller amounts too. The micro's (or trace) act as catalysts for the plants to use the macros. So I'd be concerend that a large dose of micros might cause a burst of growth in the plants that quickly use the macros up. In your case it seems the nitrate is getting used too quickly.

It can seem strange but more often than not increasing the ferts get rid of algae. Most people are tempted to decrease them. The reality is all about getting the balance which can be tricky, but once thre and understood is easy to manage. In my heavily planted tank my CO2 ran out, the first replacement cartridge came with no fitting, the second was empty!! So by the time I got it sorted my plants have now all grown hairs!! Still after some pruning and CO2 its getting back to where it should be.

hth,

[traco]

Yikes, I'm glad I haven't progressed to dosing fertilizers!! So far, I'm just relying on the fish and lights for my plants.

Getting the right balance sure is a fine art. I'll just stick to reading for now and wait a bit before attempting fertilizers.

Good luck, Marilyn. It will work out for you. Don't despair or give up.

[pcsb23]

I sometimes think keeping a planted tank is harder than keeping discus :)

[lhforbes12]

Paul,
Thanks for posting! I think the trying to raise the nitrates with the Flourish Nitrogen is what got me so in trouble to start with. I have had alot of trouble figuring out the Seachem and that is why I ordered the dry ferts.
Here is my plan once I get the diatom filter and dry ferts in this week:

Daily dose with 5ml of Flourish Excel.

Sunday: Macro Dosing
1tsp KNO3, .5 tsp KH2PO4, 15 ml Flourish

Monday:
15 ml Florish with Trace, 4ml Flourish Iron.

This planted thing is harder to get settled than I thought!;) ;)

Actually, my green water wasnt too bad. I could still see through the tank, but barely. I figured I would be out of balance as I learned. My plan is to not let algae take hold. And to figure it out QUICK.

Thanks to all who are helping me! Thank the GODS OF DISCUS my babies are bigger... I cant imagine doing this with little ones!


Marilyn,

You're killing me here! Do NOT dose that way! OMG!!! 1tsp. of KNO3 will have your discus gasping. Paul has a good and very well accepted way. Mine happens to be better though. Just do what I originally told you to do, it's really no fuss no muss, and extremely easy to do. BUT if you don't want to follow my way then definately follow Paul's. What fertilizer did you get from gregwatson.com? If you got what I told you to get, Paul's way will not work (not Paul's fault he doesn't know what you are dosing with). <sigh> Call me so I can explain it better

[lhforbes12]

OK, again I just took this picture. Please notice that there is no algae and I have NEVER wiped the glass to remove any algae. And again the tank is just over two months old (first water in it was 04/02/06)

[Kindredspirit]

Silk I say! SILK!!

But you hang in there woman!!



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_4.gif

[lhforbes12]

Silk I say! SILK!!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_4.gif

Blasphemy! Heresey! Ummmm.... bad bad bad, even

[Kindredspirit]

LoL! Yours does look great Larry I will give you that! However ~ I shall just enjoy your beautiful hard work ~:o

....and stick with my silk ones:D ...and oh yeah....three real ones!!! Lets do not forget that part ~

Sorri Marilyn for mini hi-jacking your important thread ~


M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_4.gif

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
Just how early in the morning do you get up? It must be 4AM there! The reason I keep showing the tank is because it is almost no work, which was kinna my point. I dose every day and that is the extent of any "work". If Marilyn's tank works out as well as I think it will, I'll send you some REAL plants for that beautiful rock 'scape of yours to make it even more beautiful.

[Kindredspirit]

I sometimes think keeping a planted tank is harder than keeping discus :)



Ya think? tank ~ water ~ parameters ~ FISH ~ problems are enuff for me ~


I am not even goin there with plants~

( at least not today:) )



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_4.gif

[marilyn1998]

Marie,


Nno worries, no hijack at all. I had the extreme pleasure of talking with Larry last night. I only ordered ONE product, (went with the mix, Larry, for ease), and that filter. Now, I only need to follow his directions.

Pretty easy. 1/16tsp of the fert, some excel, and one 50% wc on Sunday!
I will try it for a few weeks. THe plants really do ALOT to keep my params where they need to be. ANd now I am only feeding 3x a day, the tank stays clean enough. ANd I also use a prefilter.

Funny thing about the glass... I had brown diatom algae all the time and was cleaning the glass daily. Since I added the plants and they have had a chance to establish, (knock on wood) NO BROWN!!!

I will report on all the progress. After Larry talked to me, it seems failry easy. And I understand the process now, too. Kinda like learning about bio cycling. Hairy until you get the idea. And once you know how you 'uncycle', you are fine!

[lhforbes12]

Marilyn,
EXCELLENT!! and you have my # if you need me. Now if I could only get Paul and Al to stop reading APC and actually listen to what I've been saying I'll be happy. <grin>

[Kindredspirit]

How's it going Chica ?? Just checkin in:wave:



M~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_2_8.gif

[Vince+Carrie]

We've gone through various fun stages of algae attacks too. Brown, green, hair, black....you name it. Our planted tank has been set up for about 7 months now, and we were warned in the beginning that the various algae outbreaks were inevitable for a newly planted tank...

Which of course we scoffed at because the tank didn't have any algae at all for the first couple of months. We thought we were so good...haha :D

But anyways...we had a bout of green water too. We bought a UV sterilizer, and it was all gone within a couple of days. We leave the UV sterilizer running all the time, and have never had green water since.

[lhforbes12]

We've gone through various fun stages of algae attacks too. Brown, green, hair, black....you name it. Our planted tank has been set up for about 7 months now, and we were warned in the beginning that the various algae outbreaks were inevitable for a newly planted tank...

Which of course we scoffed at because the tank didn't have any algae at all for the first couple of months. We thought we were so good...haha :D

But anyways...we had a bout of green water too. We bought a UV sterilizer, and it was all gone within a couple of days. We leave the UV sterilizer running all the time, and have never had green water since.

Vince & Carrie,
It's pretty easy to not have algae and as you stated when tanks are first set up is when you usually have the most problems, the tank below has been up for a year and a half.