Are angels really that mean?

[tpl*co]

I got some blue blushers that I put in quarantine and they are really going at each other for dominance. Like juvie discus to the 3rd power! Are angels really like these little snots? I was thinking of having a discus/angel show tank but I'm wondering if I want to put my discus with these ruffians, LOL.

Tina

[wheeler]

if you were to put them in the tank while they are juvies and the discus were adults, they will learn they're place in a hurry. i definatly wouldn't do it the other way around. i'm sure some of the pros will be able to give some better pros and cons. i believe that in the end, it's a pretty close debate. your call really.

[April]

id stick to separate tanks. some people do have them togeather..but then theres also rumors..angels carry parasites or pathogens that the discus get..and dont cope as well..
ryan had angels who locked jaws..and his females mouth was stuck open..,fins gone..killed partners..etc. they can be mean.

[Ryan]

Angels tend to be much more aggressive than discus, IMO. Some strains seem to be worse than others. Angels will also overpower a tank if they are in large groups. If I were doing a peaceful community set up, I wouldn't keep more than maybe 4 angels unless the tank was large and you had plenty of cover for everyone. Especially once spawning starts. Now, if it were an all-angel tank, that's a different story. But there will still be a very aggressive streak in them when they get older and start to pair off.

Ryan

[Ryan]

April is right, I've had some nasty angels. But, I've had nasty discus too. I think that's just the nature of cichlids for you. Some will be amazing -- great parents, great partners, great tankmates in the community... and then some won't. Here is the koi pair that April mentioned. The female would violently attack the male once in a while out of the blue... they would go months without any quarreling, and suddenly I'd come home to find he had no fins or his jaw would be "stuck" open... Then one day, I came home and found him dead, even though he'd been perfectly fine. I think she was the death of him. lol.

Ryan

(The female is on the right)

[White Worm]

I have had albino angels from kenny with my discus for months and no problems. i put the angels in as babies and I think they know better than to piss off a discus. The angels will go at it with each other once in a while but nothing serious. There are only 3 angels in my 85g and they are out-numbered by discus. They pretty much ignore each other and everyone gets their fair share during feeding time.

[aben]

I've kept angels for a number of years and have had them in tanks, singly, with discus with few problems.

But, they can be quite aggressive,more so than discus IMO. However, as has been noted already, you should consider each case differently - not all angels are equally aggressive. I've had tanks of angels - males and females who have paired together and found that they do not become overly aggressive if they have enough tank space and you don't feed them as you would if you were going to grow them out or to get them to spawn.

I like the suggestion about keeping the angels and discus in groups that are similar in terms of physical size. However, I've had some relatively small angels try to bully much larger angels ;) However, again, that has been when they are already part of an established pair.

BTW - Ryan, excellent pair of Koi! :) Wish I could get my hands on some with such nice body shapes and finnage. Well done!

aben

[poconogal]

I had 5 angels about 14 years ago, nickle sized, in a community. Two paired off at that size - I was amazed, but I saw them lock jaws and wrestle. They then stayed together as a pair until they grew bigger. Once they were ready to spawn, the other 3 angels had to find new homes or they would have been beaten to death! My pair spawned every Friday, until my New York City tap water went haywire. They stopped spawning, the female wanted out of the relationship and beat the male to death! Some time after, I got rid of the community tank and got my first Discus. The female Angel was put in the tank with the Discus (she was fairly large by then). She hung out with them, the Discus ate more aggressively than the Angel (surprise!!) and outraced her to the food, but they were very peaceful and got along well. I'm convinced the Angel thought she was a Discus, and she was definitely part of their little shoal. So, even though an Angel can be aggressive, mean and nasty under certain circumstances, under other circumstances, that same Angel can be very peaceful and non-aggressive. I love Angels as much as I love Discus and will never be without at least one. Right now I'm growing out a beautiful little Koi, superveil comb tail, in my community tank. :angel:
Connie

[Kindredspirit]

T ~

I never really liked Angels ~ but they are cute small:p ~ I had Ms. Splotches for almost a year before giving her to Deb to put in her huge planted tank ~ but she grew up Tina with M. Pringles for the longest time with no problems ~

But ~ once this year I did put her in the discus tank with the 6 and she was a total butthead! She rammed them and had them all ( and they are big!) hiding in the corner ~

Out she came ~ ya think? Also the 'mystery illness' which has caused so much controversy with Angels ....was always stuck in the back of my mind ~ I just couldnt mix them ~ What IF ~ just IF ~ there was/is some validity to it?

As someone said ~ itz ultimately your call;)

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_134.gif

[traco]

Hi Tina. I've got angels in with my discus. 2 marble angels and 6 full grown discus. I have had no problems with any aggression between the angels and the angels and discus. I put the angels in when they were teenagers. They are faster for eating but I just make sure I feed in more than one spot.

Again, it also comes down to individual temperments of all your fish. I did have a couple of black angels in the tank also but they were mean! To each other and the other angels.

Ater QT try them, watch the tank closely and see how everyone gets along.:)

[used2bBubbles]

I've had angels for some time now. At one time, I had over 13 and there were smokies, blue blushers, marble veils, gold pearlscale, black hybrid and zebra lace. In fact, I bought 9 of them all as nickel size and they all lived happily in a large tank for many months. Then they started to become sexually mature and all h@l! broke loose! Some paired off, so I put them in tanks as pairs. The "odd ones" were put in other tanks, but they just couldn't get along.

I still have my 4 original angels, 2 marble veil females and 2 hybrid males. One of the females is a real terror; she spawns every 7-10 days, and if the male isn't ready for her, she beats him up. Even if he is ready for her, she beats him up AFTER they spawn! I've tried her with both the black males and one of the males is not aggressive at all. She nearly killed him (I pulled her out before it came to that). I put her in with my "tough guy" and she beat him up 3x pretty bad. So I got desperate and put her in with my discus. 7 discus and 1 angel. Pretty good odds. Well, she just made herself at home. I couldn't believe it. I turned the water temp down a bit on the angel tank after she had been gone for quite some time and she seems to have lost that severe aggression, but it's still early.

Here's how she acted the 2nd day she was added to the discus tank: do you think she was intimidated? HA!

[tpl*co]

OK, from what I'm reading it is the females that are bi****y and have attitudes and I should keep a small number of them? I'm debating about taking the whole lot back :(. The blue blushers are definitely making strifing runs at each other in the quarantine tank. I also got a couple of what I find are blue kois and so far they seem more peaceful (compared to the blue blushers). The fish I got are from a nickel to 25 cent size and I can see some individuals are already meaner than others! And here I have a tank with africans too (there the males just chase everything around the tank without really trying to do any damage :) but then I have more "peaceful" type africans LOL.

Tina

[Debbie]

Angels and discus together can be great tank mates or they can be a problem. Angels tend to feed more aggressively, but not always and if you feed enough it won't be a problem. If the angels pair up they can terrorize a whole tank, but if the tank is big enough, they won't bother chasing all over the whole tank.

The crap about angels carrying a pathogen that only discus are affected has never been proven and I find it to sound pretty ridiculous. Only one species of fish effected???

I have kept angels and discus together for years and there have been a few problems, but no more than with any other combination of fish. Angels can be aggressive, but I have had discus that you can't even put another fish in with, including an angel and angles that were just plain mean too. It all depends on the individual fish.

[used2bBubbles]

I have to agree with Debbie. It all depends on the individual fish. Unfortunately, you don't know how they will interact until you put them together. Those of us in the group of angel enthusiasts I talk to say that angefish were misnamed: they should be called devilfish because of their very mean demeanors. Now that doesn't mean every angelfish is that way, but it depends on the fish and who that fish is with. The female marble that I posted in this thread was just the sweetest thing for a few years. I just loved her. Then I put her with the non-aggressive black male and she was so patient with him. Then one day, that was it!

I will admit that lowering the temp from 84 to 82 or 80 helps lower the aggression some. However, it also lowers their immunity to sickness a bit.

Sorry we can't tell you exactly what to do, but always remember they are still cichlids. :)

Kathi

[tpl*co]

So sounds like I should probably take back the blue blushers that seem to have an atitude problem now or is it like juvie discus getting their territories? Do angels get worse with age?

I'm usually not into angels either (like Marie) but there was something about those blue irradescent patches on them (almost like a cobalt blue discus patch) that was attractive. Some even had rainbow colored scales and patches. These fish had me thinking, hmmmm, maybe.... and taking a second look, but if they'll be a problem they're out of there.

Of course one of my favorite of the babies (a partially diamond scale blue koi, with the bronze forehead) I notice now is missing one of those long flowy front fins (for lack of the technical name) and that is probably genetic? It is a beautiful baby but I wonder if I should take it back because of the missing fin?

Tina

[Ryan]

Tina,

If the blue koi is missing the pelvic/ventral fin completely, chances are it won't grow back. This can sometimes be a defect in fry and it's something I would cull for. I have had these fins fall off or get damaged on angels before and they grow back fairly quickly. My male smokey lost his while doing battle with spawning kribensis two weeks ago, and it has already completely grown back.

Angels tend to be like discus in the sense that they establish a pecking order and they like to fight and chase one another. It doesn't mean that they would direct the aggression toward other species, but they may. The only real way to tell would be to try it out. I've never found blue blushers to be particularly aggressive. In fact, they're one of my favorite angels. (By the way, blue koi are basically blue blushers with black patches :)).

It might be worth noting... in my opinion, healthy, good quality angels should be somewhat belligerent and feisty. That is typical angel behavior. As long as no one is getting seriously injured, the fish are just doing what they are born to do... be angelfish :)

[used2bBubbles]

It's a tough call, Tina. I went from 13 adult angels down to 4, only because I was tired of guessing who was going to pick a fight with who next. I was playing musical tanks all the time. And as far as whether they get better or worse with age, I can't really say. Depends on their environment, too (if they're with fish they like). Now I am no expert by any means, so maybe a breeder would be a better person to ask.

Oh, there is almost nothing prettier than watching a superveil angelfish glide across the tank (only prettier is a group of gorgeous discus!). And when mine do, I love it. So peaceful and elegant. So I see how you got "hooked!"

About the missing ventral, I would definitely question the store about that. I've never seen that. I know fins, etc. can grow back, but I don't know about a ventral.

I don't know if you stated how many angels you got. I'd say maybe keep 2 and see how it goes. I've been able to sell all mine to a lfs because angels are always in demand, at least in this area.

Sorry I can't be more specific. :(

[traco]

It you like the looks of the angels, wait out the QT time and get to know their personalities. Then when it comes time to introduce them to the discus tank, you know who is who and who makes trouble.

No harm in trying if you watch closely. I've never had any altercations between the discus and the angels. Feeding time is the only time as angels are even worse little piggies than discus!:D

[tpl*co]

Angels tend to be like discus in the sense that they establish a pecking order and they like to fight and chase one another. It doesn't mean that they would direct the aggression toward other species, but they may. The only real way to tell would be to try it out. I've never found blue blushers to be particularly aggressive. In fact, they're one of my favorite angels. (By the way, blue koi are basically blue blushers with black patches :)


LOL, the ones I got the blues look like half black or mottled black with the blue irradescence and red cheaks. The blue koi are my favorite with light bodies, irradescent blue patches, bronzy crown and patches and then dark patches that remind me of a cow or spotted puppy dog :). I got a few striped ones too, but with my kids and I those are the least favorite of the bunch and will probably go back.

Well then I guess I have very healthy juvie angels, LOL. Is there anything that I should look for in picking a young angel? I can pick a good discus easy enough, but looking at all those baby angels... Some had squared off top fins, what does that mean?

Tina

[Ryan]

Tops and bottoms of dorsal and anal fins should be rounded off. They may taper to a point, or they may be broad and blunt, but they should never be squared off or "chopped." This is often a sign that there was poor water quality when they were developing the fins. It's not to say that the fish can't be healthy, but it's just not very attractive and as they grow the fins probably won't look normal. I had several with chopped fins because my tanks were so overstocked when I was raising my last batch of fry. I culled most of those.

Always look for angels that are round. Body shape should be similar to discus. Under quarter size they tend to be slightly oblong, but anything quarter size and up should have rounded out. Eye size is hard to go by because small angels often have HUGE eyes. Fins should not be crooked or bent, they should remain fairly straight. Finnage seems to be the biggest problem with LFS angels... they often have misformed fins (unpaired ventral/pelvic fins, like you mentioned on the blue koi, missing or bad fin rays, chopped fins, etc.). Happy, healthy angels should be perky, feisty, and always hungry. Unless their tummies are so full that they're about to burst (and they can't close their mouths), young angels should ALWAYS be willing to eat.

The fish you described with the blushing gills and the mottled halfblack pattern are actually what you consider "smokey blushers". They are a cross between blue blushers and smokeys.

Ryan

[Ryan]

Also, another note about LFS angels... a huge problem that I see locally, both in mom-n-pop stores and in big chains like Petsmart and Petco, are angels that are clamped and huddled in a corner. I am not sure if this can be pin-pointed as any one thing, I would think it could be a number of things... but it's always Columnaris-like symptoms with hazy slime on the body and clamped fins that appear milky or opaque. Avoid any angels that look this way. Stores have tried telling me that it's just shipping stress and it will pass, but I don't think that is the case. I've watched stores lose entire shipments of angels even after treating them with a wide range of medications. This seems to afflict the smaller ones, from dime to quarter size, though I have seen large angels with this too.

Ryan

[tpl*co]

Thanks Ryan,

So "blunt" fins are OK, that's good. Yes, I saw what you were saying about the fins at the LFS, but they definitely do a better job keeping their angels than their discus!:p.

Smokey blushers huh? They are definitely very pretty and the blue koi are my favorites of the bunch. (I had to go to dinner last night so I picked out a variety of 9 juvies to see them in my quarantine tank, I have 7 days to return the ones that don't make the cut) :). I got one small leopard style angel too, but it sounds like my kids are with me in liking the koi and the lighter smokeys, LOL. hmmm, I may have to go back and trade the ones I don't like for more of the kois :).

LOL, they definitely don't miss a meal oportunity! I wasn't able to get any of the red spotted wilds, the entire shipment they had died :(.

[Kindredspirit]

...and where are we getting these lovely Angels? hmm....? Barb has one or two that I saw once in her pics ~ pure black with long flowing fins! I loved it! All black! I saw some at Capitol the other day Tina ..and they were small but didnt look too good to me:(

If I was to get any more Angels I wld get the ones that Barb has:)



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif

[tpl*co]

Well, dang Marie, you should have guessed that, 7 day return policy, one with a missing fin?

These were a little larger than the ones in the mixed angel tank. They were in the "blue angel" tank and the one right above it.

Tina