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View Full Version : What is this about planted tanks and stunted discus growth?



Catfish Junkie
07-04-2006, 09:53 PM
Is this true? How would this be possible? Though I am fish keeper I have never heard this before. In fact i've read that the plants help them be more at ease. Someone with experience here please help me out! I've got 2 right now but plan to get many more. All to go into my planted tank.

billeagan
07-04-2006, 10:01 PM
I have never heard of such a thing. You wants plants in the tank as they will help the discus feel more comfortable/give them a place to hide.

And, the plants use nitrates which helps your tank/filtration process.

Bill

dandestroy
07-04-2006, 10:17 PM
tell you what, I'm pretty good with planted tank, and just starting with Discus...

putted my litle guys in their new planted 80 gal... their behavior changed in 1hr

they look way more happy than in the empty BB tank. They play in the plant, they run around, they hide behing the drift wood when afraid.

Even my GF noticed the difference right away.

In addition water quality is amazing with a lots of plants, and their colors shows a lot more against the green leaves.

lhforbes12
07-04-2006, 11:11 PM
I have to disagree strongly with both Bill and Dan. I have grown discus both ways, in planted and unplanted aquaria. They always grow larger in unplanted tanks. The reason for this is really two fold;

1. Young discus need constant feeding and clean water, doing this in a planted tank is next to impossible.

2. Young discus need clean water and many, many, many water changes.

So while it is possible to grow discus in a planted tank, it is impossible to do so and to have the discus reach the same size they would have in a BB tank. Also plants will do extremely poorly if made to suffer the constant water changes needed to grow discus properly. Other problems are that discus need high O2, plants need high CO2. Keeping high O2 and high CO2 levels, while not impossible, may as well be. High surface movement to provide O2 for the discus will also drive out CO2. Additionally, discus just do not do well with high NO3 (nitrates) and anything over 20 ppm tends to stress them IMO, plants, on the other hand, love high NO3 levels. Also try keeping the substrate clean and also keeping the plants happy... it aint going to happen. What you end up with is stunted discus and stunted plants.
The best solution for both discus and plants is to raise the discus to at least sub-adult size and then add them to a planted aquarium. This can and is done by many of us.

This is my 125, note the size of the discus

Dissident
07-04-2006, 11:36 PM
I grew out 6 2" Blue Snake Skins in my planted tank (110g).
http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b35/cschema/110x/
I would only recommend it for people who have a good background with planted tanks. High-tech and low-tech. I kept planted tanks for 5yrs (HT and LT) before I got into discus. The lessons I learned in that time were valuable. For the last few years I was interested in discus but never got around to getting any, as well as all the comments I got regarding planted tanks and discus I decided to hold off and read read read, and I am glad I did.
I had no issues growing some really nice discus and have them spawn in my planted tank. 4 of the 6 I started with at 2” back in December have bodies larger than a CD (never measured them). I have never had a discus loss or disease in this tank. Other people have had a lot of problems, which I attribute to lack of knowledge of the dynamics of a planted tank as well as discus.
Planted tanks tend to have much higher DOC (dissolved organic compounds) levels for obvious reasons. This makes 100% WC hard because if you go from high DOC to 0 DOC it can really stress the fish and even cause death.
Nitrate levels to some extent are irrelevant, since in a planted tank you are typically adding NO3 to the system to keep the proper NO3:PO4 ratio. Typically nitrate levels are used to determine over-all water quality, it’s not necessarily that the NO3 is bad (20+ppm would be hard on any fish) but everything that goes with it (other dissolved compounds). So while in my planted tank I keep 15-20ppm NO3 I still do every-other-day to daily 30%-50% WC.
They are harder to keep clean of rotting food, in a heavily planted tank there are a lot of places for food to sit and rot. If I notice during feedings that a lot of food is on the substrate and the fish are not interested I immediately will pull out the siphon and clean it up. IMO extra filtration is a must.

Depending on your comfort level in planted tanks and discus the choice is up to you. If you are confident with both and are willing to put in the extra work the go for it. Personally I agree that a well kept planted tank is much better than any well kept BBB tank. I would also love to have another planted-discus-tank keeper around, there are not too many of us, but there are plenty of us who are willing to help if you have any questions or run into any problems.

Plantedtank.net
And here are two great resources you should use extensively.

wolfbane
07-04-2006, 11:58 PM
I raised my discus from 1.5 inches to 4 inches in a BB tank, then put them in my graveled and planted tank. They are around 5-6 inches now, after a year in the planted tank. The growth slowed greatly once in the planted tank, but slow growth continued. I vacuum like crazy once a week and do 50% water change.

crazie.eddie
07-05-2006, 12:42 AM
Do discus experience slower growth, after they reach a specific length? I understand this occurs in some fish, which is what some of you are experiencing.

Basically, it looks like we have 2 different opinions. Since there are no true scientific studies found, there is no true answer. Unless someone wants to do a 2 year study growing 2 discus of the same species in a planted and BB tank, with both tanks fed, cleaned, water changed the same.

Timbo
07-05-2006, 04:49 AM
i have to agree with larry. in the longer term, the juvies will grow faster and stay healthier in a bb. its easier to keep really clean.

i say "in the longer term" because, as dandestroy notes, in the short term, the discus may seem more comfortable with a planted environment...but it is impossible to keep it as clean as a bb and eventually the juvies will suffer; this is usually exhibited by inhibited growth.

it depends on your objectives really. if you want maximum growth in your juvies, go bb; if you want a nice display and are willing to do the extra maintenance (and yes, there will definately be more maintenance on a gravelled tank to keep the parameters good for juvies) and dont really care about maximizing growth then you can try a planted tank.

planted tanks are fine for adults who have stopped growing really fast, but for juvies...i'd have to say go bb.

crazie.eddie
07-05-2006, 06:49 AM
A well maintained planted tank would help in keeping ammonia, nitrites/nitrates down from a dangerous level. After all, mother nature has done it for years. You don't see a big whirlwind huricane sucking up detritus from the lakes/rivers where discus originated from, followed by a massive downpour of rainwater? So I guess mother nature has been doing something correct.

Besides, those who had BB tanks and planted tanks and state the discus grew better in bb tanks. How many of those changed foods during those times? A change in food, better/worse vitamin content, change in growth rate.

Now if only a few breeders could perform an unofficial scientific test, like what I mentioned above.

ticman
07-05-2006, 07:02 AM
I find the above opinions very interesting.

Two other variables. Plastic plants and sand substrate.

Any comments on whether this might change some of the dynamics with regards to growth rate and cleaning.

Thanks,

Mike

Tony_S
07-05-2006, 09:08 AM
So I guess mother nature has been doing something correct.

Mother Nature doesnt strive for 6"-7" discus with perfectly round shape and small eyes either.;) Especially not in 12 months or less....
Have you ever noticed that most wilds have VERY large eyes in proportion to thier body size? IMO thats due to the very slow growth they experience under 'natural' conditions.

Tim said it well...


it depends on your objectives really. if you want maximum growth in your juvies, go bb; if you want a nice display and are willing to do the extra maintenance (and yes, there will definately be more maintenance on a gravelled tank to keep the parameters good for juvies) and dont really care about maximizing growth then you can try a planted tank.

All of the 'top quality" domestic's you see, on this site and others, where grown out in bare bottom tanks....guaranteed.

Tony

lhforbes12
07-05-2006, 10:09 AM
I had no issues growing some really nice discus and have them spawn in my planted tank. 4 of the 6 I started with at 2” back in December have bodies larger than a CD (never measured them). I have never had a discus loss or disease in this tank. Other people have had a lot of problems, which I attribute to lack of knowledge of the dynamics of a planted tank as well as discus.
Which exactly makes my point. A CD is 4 1/2", to me that is a VERY SMALL adult.


Planted tanks tend to have much higher DOC (dissolved organic compounds) levels for obvious reasons. This makes 100% WC hard because if you go from high DOC to 0 DOC it can really stress the fish and even cause death.
That is an interesting theory, it's backwards, but interesting. High DOC are what is is bad for discus, not low.


Nitrate levels to some extent are irrelevant, since in a planted tank you are typically adding NO3 to the system to keep the proper NO3:PO4 ratio. Typically nitrate levels are used to determine over-all water quality, it’s not necessarily that the NO3 is bad (20+ppm would be hard on any fish) but everything that goes with it (other dissolved compounds). So while in my planted tank I keep 15-20ppm NO3 I still do every-other-day to daily 30%-50% WC.

High NO3 (actually Nitrogen in most forms) is a bad thing for discus. High NO3 will definately cause them to breathe rapidly. Keeping them at high NO3 is a sure way to cause them stress and therefore disease.


They are harder to keep clean of rotting food, in a heavily planted tank there are a lot of places for food to sit and rot. If I notice during feedings that a lot of food is on the substrate and the fish are not interested I immediately will pull out the siphon and clean it up. IMO extra filtration is a must.

I'm confused... are you trying to make my point here?


Depending on your comfort level in planted tanks and discus the choice is up to you. If you are confident with both and are willing to put in the extra work the go for it. Personally I agree that a well kept planted tank is much better than any well kept BBB tank. I would also love to have another planted-discus-tank keeper around, there are not too many of us, but there are plenty of us who are willing to help if you have any questions or run into any problems.


I agree at least somewhat. As Tony already pointed out, it's what you want in your discus, if you want discus which are small, growing them out in a planted tank is fine. If you want 6"-8" monster discus, you will never achieve this in a planted tank while they are young. Also a quick check in the Diseases section will show you that 99% of the problems that people run into are due to having a substrate in their tank, especially when their discus are young.


Plantedtank.net
And here are two great resources you should use extensively.

These are two fine resources, an even better one for plants is here; http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/
This is where Karen Randall, Scott Hieber, George Booth, Erik Olsen and many other of the plant "pros" hang out. You will notice that I don't mention The Krib, that is because it is an archive now with no new information, and the information there is now considered mostly wrong. Erik Olsen, the owner of The Krib, has many times discussed taking it down for this very reason.


A well maintained planted tank would help in keeping ammonia, nitrites/nitrates down from a dangerous level. After all, mother nature has done it for years. You don't see a big whirlwind huricane sucking up detritus from the lakes/rivers where discus originated from, followed by a massive downpour of rainwater? So I guess mother nature has been doing something correct.
Water changes do a much better job of this, which is exactly what happens in the wild btw. Comparing a tank to a lake or river is worse than comparing an apple to an orange, it's not even as close of an analogy. A tank is a very closed environment, lakes and rivers are quite open. As to the downpour, are you joking? What do you think initiates spwning in the wild? Answer; onset of the rainy season, when downpours occur often. As to the water passing by (whirwind hurricane) this happens every SECOND of every day, not sure what you are thinking here Ed.


Besides, those who had BB tanks and planted tanks and state the discus grew better in bb tanks. How many of those changed foods during those times? A change in food, better/worse vitamin content, change in growth rate..
Mine get EXACTLY the same foods, why would there be a reason the change?


Now if only a few breeders could perform an unofficial scientific test, like what I mentioned above.

I already have, which is why my replies to this may seem bit harsh. We have been over this time and again. The simple fact is this: BBB = large healthy fish, tank with substrate = smaller fish which are usually less healthy.

Kindredspirit
07-05-2006, 10:15 AM
....if I cld chime in.....


Do most want maximum growth? To be honest I never really thought bout it ~ till now ~ I was always concerned with keeping them well and providing the best care I cld offer and learning from the ones I trust ....here ~ not how big they cld get ~ in retrospect I wonder now...."top quality" ...Tony....I wonder if mine are! lol!

I just learned ~ and quick ~ that bb was so much easier cuz no matter what people say ~ we do all slack on that infamous wc ~ and when your tanks are not bb there will ultimately be issues ~ make no mistake about that ~ you read it time after time ~ people going bare bottom after a well learned lesson ~ I have never had issues due to lack of wc but the constant concern is forever present!

Personally I do not think the discus gives a sh!t if it is bb or not ~ itz us....they all seem pretty much indif and happy either way ~ give them a place to hide and they will ~ there is no hiding in my tanks ~ I hate that ~ and I no longer have any bb left!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_32.gif

dandestroy
07-05-2006, 10:28 AM
Other problems are that discus need high O2, plants need high CO2. Keeping high O2 and high CO2 levels, while not impossible, may as well be. High surface movement to provide O2 for the discus will also drive out CO2.

High O2 is given by photosynthesis process of the plants...more plants you have more O2 you get. CO2 level can be high at the same time. More CO2 does not mean less O2 what so ever, they are completely independant. High water movement will tend only to equilibrate disolve gas to the air that is move around... therefore in a heavily planted tank, water movement will loose CO2 and O2 in the same time (that is if your O2 level are behond normal O2 air level).
CO2 evaporate faster cause the difference between the tank and the air is bigger, since Carbon dioxide content in fresh air is around 0.035% while O2 is around 20.946%. If you were going to have pure Oxygen over your tank that would increase the rate of evaporation of CO2, and of course no O2 would evaporate but water movement would increase in dissolution in water. (Keep also in mind that plants also produce Co2 during the night cycle or a should say the light independant cycle in order to produce the sugar they require live )

For sure you have more O2 in a planted tank than in BB tank (unless you have water fall going on).

As for cleaning BB tank, for sure its easier, but my planted tank as a powerpull buffering effect on all that poisonus stuff, and my corys and shrimps take care of a lots of crap as well as all the bacteria of the substrate.

I have to agree that the discus can get bigger with BB tank, but I swear that they are more happy in the planted one. Mine my not become so hudge (but they will be like nature intended to), and this small size will not be inherited to the young one if I ever come to reproduce them. Of course, I will say it again, if you are a breeder and that people wants hudge discus you have to go BB (and also for ease of cleaning a lots of tank faster). The market wants big discus right now. Me I want happy healthy colorfull discus in a beautifull decorative display tank in my living room.

Dissident
07-05-2006, 11:32 AM
Which exactly makes my point. A CD is 4 1/2", to me that is a VERY SMALL adult.

I'll get out a ruler and let you know what size they are at 7-8 months ;)
3 of the 6 are at least 5-6" 2 are 4-5" and one is catching up, always small untill the last month where he for some reason hit a late growing spurt. I would be supprised if the big3 dont top out over 6" (not includeing finage) by the end of the year.
I am also growing out some (you know who I am talking about;) ) in a BB to kinda test this theory.



That is an interesting theory, it's backwards, but interesting. High DOC are what is is bad for discus, not low.

Yes high levels of DOC is bad for the fish too. But going from high to very low is very hard on your fish. I was mostly pointing out one of the challanges of a planted tank. You are going to have elivated levels of DOC but at the same time you don't want to change the enviroment so much the fish suffer from the most basic practice, large WC.



High NO3 (actually Nitrogen in most forms) is a bad thing for discus. High NO3 will definately cause them to breathe rapidly. Keeping them at high NO3 is a sure way to cause them stress and therefore disease.

I have never noticed stress by adding KNO3 after WCs, but again I have never added KNO3 to get to 40ppm. 10-15ppm is where I like to keep planted tanks at. Any fish will suffer from high levels of NO3. Elivated levels of NO3 due to poor maintinance is diffrerent than elivated leves due to the addition of something like KNO3. Typically high levels of KNO3 (bad on their own) also are a sign that you have elivated levels of other organic compounds in the tank from rotting food/poop/etc.



I'm confused... are you trying to make my point here?

What? I can't agree with you Larry?:D



I agree at least somewhat. As Tony already pointed out, it's what you want in your discus, if you want discus which are small, growing them out in a planted tank is fine. If you want 6"-8" monster discus, you will never achieve this in a planted tank while they are young. Also a quick check in the Diseases section will show you that 99% of the problems that people run into are due to having a substrate in their tank, especially when their discus are young.

We will see ;) You will just have to make that trip up here and see my planted-tank grow-outs :D
But I do agree that most people will have problems with substrate/planted tanks.


--
If you do want maximum growth with the least amount of work BBB will be the best way to achieve that goal. You still can grow out nice sized healthy discus in a planted tank if you put in the effort.

Tony_S
07-05-2006, 11:34 AM
Do most want maximum growth?

You have to seperate the 'masses' here IMO. New keepers (less than a year), No....they typically have no idea what can, or cant be achieved one way or the other....enter...."the learning curve".
Beyond a year experience...I'd say yes (for the most part) Even if 'they' dont know it....they've seen pictures of BIG, BEAUTIFUL, HEALTHY, VIBRANT discus....and start seeing the difference between higher and lesser quality. Its the real KNOCKOUT discus that they see, that they want....



in retrospect I wonder now...."top quality" ...Tony....I wonder if mine are! lol!

In all honesty....NO! But that IMO is due to the learning cuve you and everyone else goes through...and truthfully, you learned faster than most.
Growing massive show quality discus isnt something that's a GIVEN with a BB tank and massive water changes...IMO its something thats learned over time....Its the finer points, subtle things that GO ALONG with BB and massive changes. Top quality foods....the right amount OF those foods, good quality, stable water...and LOTS of it, wiping tanks down EVERY day, NEVER(or rarely) missing waterchanges, Being able to spot subtle problems BEFORE they turn into problems...etc.


you read it time after time ~ people going bare bottom after a well learned lesson

100% CORRECT!!



I have never had issues due to lack of wc but the constant concern is forever present!

Sure you have....its the simple fact that the issues youve had and or, are having... arent something that jumps up and bites you in the ***.
Your not worried or concerned that your discus ARENT huge, or show winners...and thats fine....But I can ASSURE you, with Cary Strong genetics, the potential WAS there.




Personally I do not think the discus gives a sh!t if it is bb or not ~ itz us....they all seem pretty much indif and happy either way

In some cases...no, they dont care....they could care less if they're only 4 1/2" vs. 7"
But throw the illness factor in that most 'new' keepers experience with planted tanks, and its a different story.


Tony

lhforbes12
07-05-2006, 11:37 AM
High O2 is given by photosynthesis process of the plants...more plants you have more O2 you get. CO2 level can be high at the same time. More CO2 does not mean less O2 what so ever, they are completely independant. High water movement will tend only to equilibrate disolve gas to the air that is move around... therefore in a heavily planted tank, water movement will loose CO2 and O2 in the same time (that is if your O2 level are behond normal O2 air level).

Other problems are that discus need high O2, plants need high CO2. Keeping high O2 and high CO2 levels, while not impossible, may as well be.
Where exactly in that statement do you see that I said high O2 and high CO2 are mutually not possible? O2 and CO2 do not have a direct correlation, that doesn't make my statement wrong, what it actually does is show a basic lack of understanding, on your part Dan, of the dynamics of an aquarium.

CO2 evaporate faster cause the difference between the tank and the air is bigger, since Carbon dioxide content in fresh air is around 0.035% while O2 is around 20.946%. If you were going to have pure Oxygen over your tank that would increase the rate of evaporation of CO2, and of course no O2 would evaporate but water movement would increase in dissolution in water. (Keep also in mind that plants also produce Co2 during the night cycle or a should say the light independant cycle in order to produce the sugar they require live )
I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. But yet again, you show a basic misunderstanding of biology. Plants use O2 24 hours a day, not only at night. I'm a bit confused, the first part of your statement seems to agree with what I stated.


For sure you have more O2 in a planted tank than in BB tank (unless you have water fall going on).
Absolutely, unequivically wrong. It is FAR easier to maintain high O2 in a BB tank.


As for cleaning BB tank, for sure its easier, but my planted tank as a powerpull buffering effect on all that poisonus stuff, and my corys and shrimps take care of a lots of crap as well as all the bacteria of the substrate..
What buffering effect are you reffering to? The fact that planted tankis have higher DOC? That is a bad NOT a good thing. If you actually think your corys and shrimp "take care of lots of crap" you really need to get yourself some new information about basic husbandry in an aquarium.


I have to agree that the discus can get bigger with BB tank, but I swear that they are more happy in the planted one. Mine my not become so hudge (but they will be like nature intended to), and this small size will not be inherited to the young one if I ever come to reproduce them. Of course, I will say it again, if you are a breeder and that people wants hudge discus you have to go BB (and also for ease of cleaning a lots of tank faster). The market wants big discus right now. Me I want happy healthy colorfull discus in a beautifull decorative display tank in my living room.

Mine are just as "happy" in a BB as they are in a planted tank. Actually they tend to show stress bars far less often in a BB than in a planted tank, probably becaue the BB is a LOT cleaner. Anthropomorphising your fish as "happier" in a planted is a purely personal idea and has absolutely nothing to do with reality. I think the only one that is "happy" is the keeper, which is fine.

Kindredspirit
07-05-2006, 12:45 PM
Sure you have....its the simple fact that the issues youve had and or, are having... arent something that jumps up and bites you in the ***.
Your not worried or concerned that your discus ARENT huge, or show winners...and thats fine....But I can ASSURE you, with Cary Strong genetics, the potential WAS there.
Tony

Okay ~ My discus from Cary are approx 13months old now ~ give or take ~ are they done growing Tony? I have no idea ~ I do know that two are pretty big ~ and then I have a little one too ~

My question to you is: How cld I have done anything different in the 13 months I have had them? I followed very rule in the book which I obtained from here ~ and I have never had a problem with them ever in any way ~

So ~ Perhaps you can say the potential IS there? STILL?


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

tpl*co
07-05-2006, 12:48 PM
I guess I'll be on the fence and say it depends on what type of planted tank you have (high tech vs low tech) your cleaning, feeding and water change routine that would mean success with growth rate between a planted and bb tank.

I agree with the more relaxed and cleaner tank arguements with planted tanks. I noticed my fish in my low tech planted tank are more relaxed than in my bb tank and I don't have to battle algae as much.

Now, here are some things that I think are fueling the debate. Plants are obsticles that Discus have to go around to search for food. I've seen them do pretty amazing acrobatics in search for food but there still is the possibility of food going places they can't reach. Juvie discus have to be fed more often which could mean this uneaten food can fowl the water. Dirty water can mean slow growth rate or sick fish. This is why I like the low tech potted plant technique so I can have my plants and vaccuum around them when I need to too!(even take everything out if I need to) Sampson and Goliath grew up in this type of tank and no one could say they are stunted!

Also, types of food you feed in this situation is important too (or get yourself a good clean-up crew). I don't feed beef heart, and I do feed CBW, FBW, tetrabits and flake.

I've noticed that in a planted tank getting a balance of the type of plant to the amount of light and nutrients available is trial and error. This could put stress on fish if some plant doesn't make it and turns to mush (polluting the water). Plants that should have been fine didn't do well in my tank and things that were experiments did great, but this is part of the fun of fish keeping!

OK, what I did to get a more "natural" not a pot look (OK I'm going to get the Rio Linda vase comments :)). I cut the bottoms off clear plastic drink bottles and put holes in the bottom of that (like drainage holes). Big Gaterade or drinking water bottles work well. I'm also going to use clear large berry containers for larger plants. I then fill these with Eco complete or some other planting media and gravel. These can be disguised easily with drift wood or left in view as they tend to disappear in the water and you just see the gravel and substrate inside of them! I also have those fake planting rocks but they take up a lot more space for the amount of planting area. I just use plant tabs now too after a bad reaction to fertilizer incident with one of my larger discus.

I also probably run a lot more filtration than a lot of people have on their traditional planted aquariums. But then this tank is discus first, then plants, so I'll try to see if a plant does well in the conditions that are there for the fish and if it grows, good.

Tina

lhforbes12
07-05-2006, 01:41 PM
Tina,
To my mind this is a BB tank. btw these fish are 10 weeks old

tpl*co
07-05-2006, 01:56 PM
LOL, well Larry, I have a few more pots than that! (plus a one pebble layer of gravel just for looks). I'll try and take a picture of it when I get home :).

Tina

Alight
07-05-2006, 06:15 PM
This is also a bare bottom tank. This was several months ago. The babies are now 4.6 - 5.5 inches each.

Kindredspirit
07-05-2006, 06:27 PM
Al ~ that is one beautiful sight! Wow ~ I think I have seen that before yes? I love it! Now Al will you leave it like that even as adults? Very tempting....what are your plants names? If you dont mind....

hmm.........

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

tpl*co
07-05-2006, 06:43 PM
I agree that's beautiful! How many watts per gallon do you have on that tank to keep those red plants so red?

Tina

Tony_S
07-05-2006, 06:57 PM
My discus from Cary are approx 13months old now ~ give or take ~ are they done growing Tony?

Discus dont ever stop growing...Most of thier growth comes in the first 8 months, but the MOST important growth span IMO is the first 3-4 months of thier lives....this is typically where the 'damage' is done by most new hobbiests (providing they start with good stock) Even if thier learning curve is short...damage is done quickly (and permanently) at this stage of thier lives. Once a discus starts to lag behind, even slightly in the growth department...its nearly impossible for them to catch up.



I do know that two are pretty big

Define "pretty big"....I bet its different than my definition;)



How cld I have done anything different in the 13 months I have had them?


Without knowing what your exact routine was from start to finish, thats nearly impossible to say....it could have something to do with waterchanges...feeding....combination of the two...



Perhaps you can say the potential IS there? STILL?

After 13 months....No.

Disclaimer here Marie.....Remember, Im talking about growing out MASSIVE, THICK discus...Not 'nice' healthy discus that most new hobbiests would and should be happy with for a first try. For someone new to discus you've done better than most IMO.

Tony

ILuvMyGoldBarb
07-05-2006, 07:06 PM
It is FAR easier to maintain high O2 in a BB tank.

This statement makes me question weather you have actually closely observed your heavily planted tank. Anyone who has kept a very heavily planted tank (which I have) knows that the whole reason you have to add CO2 to the water is that there is insufficent amounts of the gas in the water for the plants, and what CO2 is there is being used up but the plants quicker than it is being produced. With the proper intake of CO2 the plants will start pearling, a process which clearly removes CO2 from the water and replaces it with O2. I'd like to see any BB tank produce that much O2. Sure at night your BB tank may have mor O2 but there is no way it has more during the day it has more than my planted tank.
While it is true that plants use O2 all say long they use much more at night. I found that out the hard way when I forgot to turn on my powerhead one night. :( All my fish were gasping at the surface for O2. Within an hour of the lights coming on over the tank, they were all happy again breathing normally. Why? Simple, the O2 level of the water had been increased by the plants. So I have to strongly disagree that a Planted tank means less O2 for your fish, I've seen the opposite to be true. BTW, for the record, I have a 37gal BB growout tank. I weigh in here ont to prove faster or slower fish growth, simply to deal with the issues of water chemistry in a planted tank.

Again, along that line, in my planted tank, my nitrates never read higher than 5ppm and my water changes were not always faithfully done every week or even every 2 weeks. In fact, there were times that I failed to do a WC for almost 4 weeks. I checked the nitrate level just before that WC and it still read 5ppm. Faulty test kit? no, because that would mean all 3 of my test kits were faulty as well as the one at my LFS. Now mind you, I did not have Discus in that tank and now that I do have Discus that will be going in there I will be doing my WCs much more frequently.

dandestroy
07-06-2006, 01:01 AM
High O2 is given by photosynthesis process of the plants...more plants you have more O2 you get. CO2 level can be high at the same time. More CO2 does not mean less O2 what so ever, they are completely independant. High water movement will tend only to equilibrate disolve gas to the air that is move around... therefore in a heavily planted tank, water movement will loose CO2 and O2 in the same time (that is if your O2 level are behond normal O2 air level).

Other problems are that discus need high O2, plants need high CO2. Keeping high O2 and high CO2 levels, while not impossible, may as well be.

Where exactly in that statement do you see that I said high O2 and high CO2 are mutually not possible?
well this is what your statement imply. Let me rephrase the last one "It is almost impossible (not totaly impossible...but we can consider it as so) to keep high O2 for discus while keeping high CO2 for plants.


O2 and CO2 do not have a direct correlation
Of course you remember now that I point it out to you...but maybe I offended you by pointing out some technical detail that you forgot about.


, that doesn't make my statement wrong, what it actually does is show a basic lack of understanding, on your part Dan, of the dynamics of an aquarium.
And now the flaming part...what this really necessary?
You have no idea what I do for living, so I can only smile to the "basic lack of understanding, on your part"

I was trying to quickly summarize the Calvin cycle without going technical but if you want more info feel free to google (or I can suggest some reading as well)


CO2 evaporate faster cause the difference between the tank and the air is bigger, since Carbon dioxide content in fresh air is around 0.035% while O2 is around 20.946%. If you were going to have pure Oxygen over your tank that would increase the rate of evaporation of CO2, and of course no O2 would evaporate but water movement would increase in dissolution in water. (Keep also in mind that plants also produce Co2 during the night cycle or a should say the light independant cycle in order to produce the sugar they require live )

I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. But yet again, you show a basic misunderstanding of biology. Plants use O2 24 hours a day, not only at night. I'm a bit confused, the first part of your statement seems to agree with what I stated.
Flaming again cause you don't understand the information I'm trying to share on this forum. (you could just have asked for more details I would be please to give you more info)

briefly its like Stars War there is light and dark phase:D

the light phase refers to the capture of lights by which protein fixed to the thylacoïde membrane will grasp electron from water
2 H2O ---light---> O2 + 4 H+ + 4é

the electron will then go from the primary aceptor to reduce NADP+ into NADPH
2 H2O + 2 NADP+ ---light---> 2H+ + 2NADPH + O2

So far a lots of O2 is produced during the day...but what's in for the plants in all this? they have to make energy from the sun (of a nice metal halide bulb :) ) after all

the proton will have decrease their concentration gradient going from the thylacoïde to the stroma of the choroplast in order to produce the stockable energy known as ATP

H+ + ADP3- + Pi2- ------> ATP 4- + H2O

Now the plants has to convert this energy into stockable sugar which will be done using CO2 and NADPH

6CO2 +18 ATP4- + 12NADPH + 12 H2O ----> C6H12O6 +18ADP3- + 18Pi2- +6H+

this step is totaly independant from light energy (which was not the case with the 3 others), and is therefore known has the obscur phase of photosynthesis. This last step occur mostly during the day as well, but at night it is the only step that is possible to accomplish for a plant.

You would be right to ask about were does that CO2 production comes, cause according to those equation CO2 is only taken to be used. While the plant cannot produced sufficient amount of NADPH and ATP without light energy, CO2 is less efficeintly used and while the plant takes up some CO2, it also release the unused excess. It s critical to note that no O2 are produced during the night as well and that is only a by product of the cycle during the day...which for our planted tanks mean that the ratio O2/CO2 diminish during the night

Feel free to correct me on the equation, its a bit far in my mind

a lot of brieffed explanation are given on the web
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/photosyn.htm
check the ref at the bottom for more info,
including Lodish "molecular cell biology" available in all good University near you ;)

wikipedia sums it up pretty good
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis



For sure you have more O2 in a planted tank than in BB tank (unless you have water fall going on).

Absolutely, unequivically wrong. It is FAR easier to maintain high O2 in a BB tank.
As you like to say: "this show a basic lack of understanding, on your part" and I think ILuvMyGoldBarb answer this issue quite well at post # 26 just above


As for cleaning BB tank, for sure its easier, but my planted tank as a powerpull buffering effect on all that poisonus stuff, and my corys and shrimps take care of a lots of crap as well as all the bacteria of the substrate.

What buffering effect are you reffering to? The fact that planted tankis have higher DOC? That is a bad NOT a good thing. If you actually think your corys and shrimp "take care of lots of crap" you really need to get yourself some new information about basic husbandry in an aquarium.
I'm not talking about a higher DOC, cause of course this is a better situation in a BB. I'm talking about the powerfull effect of plant and substrate and bacteria to filter your water here. I will never have any NH3 in my planted tank, even if I don't change my water for one week. With the same fish load a BB would show skyrocking NH3 level after one week. BB tank rely heavily on water change to remove excess NO2, NO3 and NH3 (hopefully before reaching NH3), Java moss is my sponge filter ;)


Mine are just as "happy" in a BB as they are in a planted tank. Actually they tend to show stress bars far less often in a BB than in a planted tank, probably becaue the BB is a LOT cleaner. Anthropomorphising your fish as "happier" in a planted is a purely personal idea and has absolutely nothing to do with reality. I think the only one that is "happy" is the keeper, which is fine.

well let me return the exact same argument to you about happyness in a BB:D .

mine showed significant improoved behavior in the planted tank (you should see them playing in the grass). Some human like hudge cities, other like the mountains, and other leaves surounded by corn field...which one his more happy and healthy?

You see I don't mind that you disagree with me on subjective stuff as long as I can disagree with you, but instead of flaming me on scientific facs, ask for more details (or proove me wrong)

For sure this is my longuest thread ever (probably the most mistakes in one thread as well...hey english is only a second language to me:antlers: )
and don't talk to me about spell check Its not working on mine... keep saying that I have a Firefox version that is not invented yet

lhforbes12
07-06-2006, 01:55 AM
well this is what your statement imply. Let me rephrase the last one "It is almost impossible (not totaly impossible...but we can consider it as so) to keep high O2 for discus while keeping high CO2 for plants.


Of course you remember now that I point it out to you...but maybe I offended you by pointing out some technical detail that you forgot about.
I did say that, but unlike you or ILuvMyGoldBarb I actually have an understanding of basic water chemistry, so far neither of you have shown even a modicum of understanding of even rather basic principals of water chemistry. Plants need high CO2 to support high growth, plants do photosynthisize during times of high light, at which time, even though they always are using O2 for respiration, they are emitting more O2 than they use... DURING LIGHT TIME ONLY but they use O2 AT ALL TIMES. In order to have CO2 stay in the water column the surface must be kept somewhat still. When you see pearli8ng on plants where do you think that O2 is going? Let me tell you where it is NOT going, it is NOT going into the water column since if it were there would be no pearling. Pearling is caused because the water column is already saturated with O2 and is no longer dissolving into the water column. During times of no photosynthesis the plants and animals in the water column are both depleting the water column of O2. Unless there is surface movement this will reach a critical level and your fish will be gasping at the surface (gee... how about that... just like ILuvMyGoldBarb's does). To keep that from occuring surface movement must be maintained hence it is not possible to have high O2 and high CO2 consistantly.


And now the flaming part...what this really necessary?
You have no idea what I do for living, so I can only smile to the "basic lack of understanding, on your part"
Which you continue to show, to my mind I never flamed you. I was merely trying to teach.


was trying to quickly summarize the Calvin cycle without going technical but if you want more info feel free to google (or I can suggest some reading as well)



Flaming again cause you don't understand the information I'm trying to share on this forum. (you could just have asked for more details I would be please to give you more info)

briefly its like Stars War there is light and dark phase:D

the light phase refers to the capture of lights by which protein fixed to the thylacoïde membrane will grasp electron from water
2 H2O ---light---> O2 + 4 H+ + 4é

the electron will then go from the primary aceptor to reduce NADP+ into NADPH
2 H2O + 2 NADP+ ---light---> 2H+ + 2NADPH + O2

So far a lots of O2 is produced during the day...but what's in for the plants in all this? they have to make energy from the sun (of a nice metal halide bulb :) ) after all

the proton will have decrease their concentration gradient going from the thylacoïde to the stroma of the choroplast in order to produce the stockable energy known as ATP

H+ + ADP3- + Pi2- ------> ATP 4- + H2O

Now the plants has to convert this energy into stockable sugar which will be done using CO2 and NADPH

6CO2 +18 ATP4- + 12NADPH + 12 H2O ----> C6H12O6 +18ADP3- + 18Pi2- +6H+

this step is totaly independant from light energy (which was not the case with the 3 others), and is therefore known has the obscur phase of photosynthesis. This last step occur mostly during the day as well, but at night it is the only step that is possible to accomplish for a plant.

You would be right to ask about were does that CO2 production comes, cause according to those equation CO2 is only taken to be used. While the plant cannot produced sufficient amount of NADPH and ATP without light energy, CO2 is less efficeintly used and while the plant takes up some CO2, it also release the unused excess. It s critical to note that no O2 are produced during the night as well and that is only a by product of the cycle during the day...which for our planted tanks mean that the ratio O2/CO2 diminish during the night

Feel free to correct me on the equation, its a bit far in my mind
No problem, the Calvin Cycle has nothing to do with CO2 use or Oxygen generation per se, it s mainly a process by which plants convert energy from the sun (light) into first starches and then sugars, what exactly does that have to do with the discussion we are having?


a lot of brieffed explanation are given on the web
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/photosyn.htm
check the ref at the bottom for more info,
including Lodish "molecular cell biology" available in all good University near you ;)

wikipedia sums it up pretty good
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis




As you like to say: "this show a basic lack of understanding, on your part" and I think ILuvMyGoldBarb answer this issue quite well at post # 26 just above
Which you continue to show




I'm not talking about a higher DOC, cause of course this is a better situation in a BB. I'm talking about the powerfull effect of plant and substrate and bacteria to filter your water here. I will never have any NH3 in my planted tank, even if I don't change my water for one week. With the same fish load a BB would show skyrocking NH3 level after one week. BB tank rely heavily on water change to remove excess NO2, NO3 and NH3 (hopefully before reaching NH3), Java moss is my sponge filter ;)

And I never have NH3/NH4, NO2 or NO3 in my BB tanks, they have biological filtration. The only thing you are buffering against by having a substrate in your tank is your eyes. Substrate attract feces, and other detritus, plants will use NH3/NH4, NO2, and NO3 but only in periods of light. They aren't "buffering" anything.




well let me return the exact same argument to you :D .

mine showed significant improoved behavior in the planted tank (you should see them playing in the grass). Some human like hugde cities, other like the mountain, and other leaves surounded by corn field...which one his more happy and healthy?

You see I don't mind that you disagree with me on subjective stuff as long as I can disagree with you, but instead of flaming me on scientific facs, ask for more details (or proove me wrong)

For sure this is my longuest thread ever (probably the most mistakes in one thread as well...hey english is only a second language to me:antlers: )
and don't talk to me about spell check Its not working on mine keep saying that I have a Firefox version that is not invented yet
Dan I believe I have already made my point, but I guess it's one I failed to show well enough. As to your fish being happier... best of luck to them.

pcsb23
07-06-2006, 03:04 AM
Just a gentle reminder to all participants on this thread, keep it civil. If you wish to have a personal spat or debate please use PM's.

Thank you.
SimplyDiscus Team.

Kindredspirit
07-06-2006, 03:37 AM
I was a participant ~ somewhere! lol! But now I am totally lost Paul! Thanks for the 'gentle reminder' ~

Think I shall go and see if my discus grew any:(



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_2_8.gif

Tony_S
07-06-2006, 05:37 AM
Think I shall go and see if my discus grew any:(



Ouch...

Tony:inquisitive:

steve.ryall
07-06-2006, 08:43 AM
What was the question again ???:D

dandestroy
07-06-2006, 10:38 AM
I did say that, but unlike you or ILuvMyGoldBarb I actually have an understanding of basic water chemistry, so far neither of you have shown even a modicum of understanding of even rather basic principals of water chemistry. Plants need high CO2 to support high growth, plants do photosynthisize during times of high light, at which time, even though they always are using O2 for respiration, they are emitting more O2 than they use... DURING LIGHT TIME ONLY but they use O2 AT ALL TIMES. In order to have CO2 stay in the water column the surface must be kept somewhat still. When you see pearli8ng on plants where do you think that O2 is going? Let me tell you where it is NOT going, it is NOT going into the water column since if it were there would be no pearling. Pearling is caused because the water column is already saturated with O2 and is no longer dissolving into the water column. During times of no photosynthesis the plants and animals in the water column are both depleting the water column of O2. Unless there is surface movement this will reach a critical level and your fish will be gasping at the surface (gee... how about that... just like ILuvMyGoldBarb's does). To keep that from occuring surface movement must be maintained hence it is not possible to have high O2 and high CO2 consistantly.

dude check the refs (clearly you have no idea of what I wrote), and search the web, you will see that uses of oxygen is only a Byproduct, and that the net output of oxygen (thats over the 24 hr cycle) is quite significant compare to what they use.

At least you agree (whitout knowing it), thats if plants show pearling its because the tank is saturated in O2. Have you ever seen your BB tank pearl O2...no... well thats shows right there that some planted tank demontrated higher O2 content (and my ricia are still pearling at the end of the night for your info) (in fact i have to had that its more because of speed of disolution of O2 that you get that peraling effect in addition to O2 saturation)


neither of you have shown even a modicum of understanding of even rather basic principals of water chemistry

Ok I have to say it now, your pushing it with your flaming over and over...So here I go:

I have a bacchelor degree in Microbiology/biochemistry, I have a master degree in molecular cell biology, I have a Ph.D. degree in human molecular genetics... I'm going to HMS in september to continue my post Doc.
"So ok I know nothing about photosynthesis, cellular biology...and specially water chemistry...cause biochemistry and molecular cell biology is so unrelated to that" End of Sarcasm
(I have more textbook on the subject, that you would thing its possible to own or waste money on.) ....

So what makes you so amazingly the "god of I know it all in water chemistry"?

dandestroy
07-06-2006, 11:00 AM
No problem, the Calvin Cycle has nothing to do with CO2 use or Oxygen generation per se, it s mainly a process by which plants convert energy from the sun (light) into first starches and then sugars, what exactly does that have to do with the discussion we are having?

well clearly I need to point out some part more carefully
the last step (the obscur phase) says exactly the reverse of what you are saying

6CO2 +18 ATP4- + 12NADPH + 12 H2O ----> C6H12O6 +18ADP3- + 18Pi2- +6H+

this is where CO2 is all used in order to create sugar. This is part of the Calvin Cycle. Read carefully its all there...all of it

As for generation of oxygen (in the calvin cycle of photosynthesis) its in the 2nd step of the light phase

2 H2O ---light---> O2 + 4 H+ + 4é
2 H2O + 2 NADP+ ---light---> 2H+ + 2NADPH + O2

ILuvMyGoldBarb
07-06-2006, 11:05 AM
I did say that, but unlike you or ILuvMyGoldBarb I actually have an understanding of basic water chemistry, so far neither of you have shown even a modicum of understanding of even rather basic principals of water chemistry. Plants need high CO2 to support high growth, plants do photosynthisize during times of high light, at which time, even though they always are using O2 for respiration, they are emitting more O2 than they use... DURING LIGHT TIME ONLY but they use O2 AT ALL TIMES.

While it is true that plants use O2 all say long they use much more at night.

Apparently you missed this part.:huh:



When you see pearli8ng on plants where do you think that O2 is going? Let me tell you where it is NOT going, it is NOT going into the water column since if it were there would be no pearling. Pearling is caused because the water column is already saturated with O2 and is no longer dissolving into the water column.
I suppose that CO2 in the bubbles given off by CO2 injection do go into the water column either?!? Of course they do.

I question your understanding of "basic water chemistry." The higher the light the faster the plants will use the CO2 in the water, the more CO2 they use, the more O2 they produce. Pearling is not cause by a saturation of O2, it is caused by O2 being produced faster than it can be absorbed. Quite frankly though, even if you statement were accurate then you just proved my point; there is more O2 in the water column of a Planted Tank!


(gee... how about that... just like ILuvMyGoldBarb's does)
Just for the record, at least get it right when you reference something I said. My fish only gasped at the surface once.

dandestroy
07-06-2006, 11:05 AM
And I never have NH3/NH4, NO2 or NO3 in my BB tanks, they have biological filtration. The only thing you are buffering against by having a substrate in your tank is your eyes. Substrate attract feces, and other detritus, plants will use NH3/NH4, NO2, and NO3 but only in periods of light. They aren't "buffering" anything.

And you have never left it one full week without WC as stated (don't only use the part you like, read the full thing properly)

The substrate is quite an ecosystem in itself, in 1 tablespoon of substrate you have more denitrifying bacteria than in your sponge filter.
Furthermore there is also tons of others bacterias that will work in decomposing and using available nutriment which are in the feces. (This is the microbilogist talking here...I can show you my diploma in a pic if you don't believe me)

for your info NO3 and NO2 reduction occurs 24hr at a steady states and is accomplish by the mitothondria as well, not only by the chloroplast during the light phase

lhforbes12
07-06-2006, 11:27 AM
This will be my last post on this thread. While a planted tank that is pearling is correctly saturated with O2, that is as high as you will get, notice that I give no numbers, this is because too many factors are in play to do so, temperature and pH being only two of them. In a BB tank where I don't care how much surface movement I have I can super saturate the water column, which means that I can get O2 to a higher level than in your planted tank, and I can do this 24 hours a day. (Dan if you think that plants are giving off O2 24 hours a day you need a basic chemistry book, what they do USE 24/7 is O2). As to pearling in a BB tank I can make plants in my BB pearl quite easily, but to do so I would actually need to lower the level of O2 first.

Carol_Roberts
07-06-2006, 11:31 AM
99% of non-wild juvenile discus are reared in barebottom tanks with sponge filters. The first time they see gravel, plants and decorations is your tank or the tank at the pet store.

Those new to the hobby need to learn how to care for an aquarium, see the amount of food leftover, see the feces produced, see how algea and diatoms grow on surfaces. Those new to discus especially need to learn these skills. Then, once you've mastered growing out discus try them in planted tanks.

There is a reason that livestock, including ornamental fish are gorwn out in controlled, clean enviornments. It is not to punish them. It is for the health of the livestock. It is important for overall health and growth to control disease, contaminents, food consumption, and waste removal.

Bottom line, the easier you make it to care for your fish the more likely you will do the work involved.

dandestroy
07-06-2006, 11:46 AM
(Dan if you think that plants are giving off O2 24 hours a day you need a basic chemistry book, what they do USE 24/7 is O2)

Again go read my post over again.
You are the one saying that don't want to admit the fact that the calvin cycle as a light and a dark phase.

I have stated all along that the output of O2 is conduted during the light phase. But O2 is also used 24hr by mitonchodria in roder to produce ATP (exactly like in your own cells).

So no I have never said that O2 is release 24hr a day, I said that over a 24hr period the output of O2 is positive.



As to pearling in a BB tank I can make plants in my BB pearl quite easily, but to do so I would actually need to lower the level of O2 first.

I don't get this one you want to decrease your O2?
I tough you said that pearling occur when water is completely saturated with O2.

personnaly not a lot of plants will pearl, and they do so in heavy planted tank. If you put one Valisneria and you cut the leaves, you will see buble going up,but that's not pearling, its more like bleading. The best exemple of pearling is the one you can see on heavy ricia fluitans planted tank.

So if its that easy for you to make plants pearl in your BB tank...do it and post it (and I know that when trowing a good bucket of water some air gets stuck on the leaves...so don't try that one). Put some Ricia in and show me the peraling over a time course.

You cannot flame me about lacking basic knowledge...this is just insulting IMO

I have gave you scientific explanation, I have give you references to go too, I have reexplained the stuff you did not understood form what I wrote.

And you kept telling me that I'm wrong because I lack basic knowledge
I can only give up to such an argument

dandestroy
07-06-2006, 11:55 AM
99% of non-wild juvenile discus are reared in barebottom tanks with sponge filters. The first time they see gravel, plants and decorations is your tank or the tank at the pet store.

Those new to the hobby need to learn how to care for an aquarium, see the amount of food leftover, see the feces produced, see how algea and diatoms grow on surfaces. Those new to discus especially need to learn these skills. Then, once you've mastered growing out discus try them in planted tanks.

There is a reason that livestock, including ornamental fish are gorwn out in controlled, clean enviornments. It is not to punish them. It is for the health of the livestock. It is important for overall health and growth to control disease, contaminents, food consumption, and waste removal.

Bottom line, the easier you make it to care for your fish the more likely you will do the work involved.


I do agree to all of this, and as I have mentioned here and in other post, I could not imagine a breeder doing something else than BB, because of the work load involve, specially in cleaning. What sells is the hudge fish, and we all know how critical the first few months are to accomplish this goal. So In order to make the bussiness viable, or in order to win contest you need hudge fish. In order to have tons of hudge fish or promising one, you need an efficient way of working in order to minimize the cost and workload, and this can ONLY be accomplish in multiple BB tank.

I would also reversed one of your statement. The one about mastering to grow discus first in order to learn,and then put them in a planted tank. While I do agree with that, I believe that one should also learn pretty dam well how to work a planted tank, and once they have master the planted tank skills, then they can think of putting discus in.

Dissident
07-06-2006, 12:59 PM
I personally would have to agree with Dan on that last statement. A high-tech planted tank is MUCH harder to learn how to maintain than discus alone. There are quite a few things you can mess up in a HT Planted tank that can hurt the fish in it. For someone witht he room time and money I would go BBB and planted, by the time the discus are ready (if you get them at 2") you should have a good understanding of planted tanks by then.

Alight
07-06-2006, 01:48 PM
I personally would have to agree with Dan on that last statement. A high-tech planted tank is MUCH harder to learn how to maintain than discus alone. There are quite a few things you can mess up in a HT Planted tank that can hurt the fish in it. For someone witht he room time and money I would go BBB and planted, by the time the discus are ready (if you get them at 2") you should have a good understanding of planted tanks by then.


Much agreement here! I'll go one bit further... It is much easier to breed discus, raise fry, bag them, sell them and ship them than it is to maintain a high-tech, high-light planted discus tank. I've been doing the former successfully for decades, but I'm still very much a poor learner on the later. It is an interesting challenge, however, and I'm having fun with it.

To Marie and Barb--Hope you see this! Yes, I posted a pic of the grow out tank previously. I really need to update that photo as the plants are twice as big now and there are actually even more plants in it now. Barb, there is only 64 watts of light over this tank, but these are 2X 32 watt T-8s that really put out more light than 2 40 watt T-12s. The babies are almost adults, now, and I will keep them in this tank until they pair off. I'll put some of the nice pairs in my high tech planted tank, and the rest will go into breeding tanks.

The light is only on about 8 hours a day, too. The red plants are the Red Temple, that really doesn't take much light to grow quite nicely and look nicely red. There is some R. Macranda in this photo, too, but these are trimmings from my High-tech planted tank. I put them in the grow out tank so that the otos can clean off algae before I send them off to others.

Al Light

dandestroy
07-06-2006, 03:41 PM
I really want to see that tank...specially for the rotala macrandra..nice going

here a shot of the best I have seen from some speciallist of plants in Qc (http://www.aquatropique.com/osCommerce_catalog/)

I got a set coming in, hopefully I'll get them to shine like these

Alight
07-06-2006, 04:10 PM
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=50196

Sadly, as I look at the photo above, from when I started my attack on the algae, you can see that my R. Macranda once looked very nice, and was multiplying like crazy (the stuff in the foreground was overflow). My Macranda is now only a shadow of its former self. Hopefully, it will regenerate now that I have the algae more under control, and have started to feed the roots more. Even more sadly, I fear that my R. Magenta, which also looked very, very nice for quite a while, may now be entirely gone.

I started to have a problem with all my heavy root feeders, recently. I chalk it up to the fact that my substrate--just plain gravel-- had a nice mulm content before I added the root feeders, so they were happy for a while. However, after 6 months, they exhausted the nutrients in the gravel, and so aren't doing well now. I just started using Jobe plant spikes to feed them more macros, so hopefully, things will pick up again.

So, for you a warning--feed that R. Macranda through the roots with some good stuff. If you have Eco-complete, or some other such macro containing substrate, so much the better.

John_Nicholson
07-06-2006, 04:28 PM
I did not read all of this but wanted to throw some stuff in....

BB are much easier to care for and are much better for newbes to do. Discus need clean water if they are going to reach their full potential. Most people cannot really keep the conditions that clean in a planted tank. If you think it is clean run your hand though the gravel and tell me what you see. Also on the thought that plants remove a ton of "crap" form the water......Well you could get by with just plants and no filter at all in the right conditions...so get you a 10,000 gallon well planted tank and put about 10 fish in it....Remember when comparing tanks to nature...water volume....We come nowhere close to matching nature in that regard.

In conclusion...Do whatever you want to do but remember most old timers and all breeders do BB. There has got to be a reason. I learned the reason many, many years ago when I raised my first set of discus.

-john

Ed13
07-06-2006, 05:03 PM
I did not read all of this but wanted to throw some stuff in....

BB are much easier to care for and are much better for newbes to do. Discus need clean water if they are going to reach their full potential. Most people cannot really keep the conditions that clean in a planted tank. If you think it is clean run your hand though the gravel and tell me what you see. Also on the thought that plants remove a ton of "crap" form the water......Well you could get by with just plants and no filter at all in the right conditions...so get you a 10,000 gallon well planted tank and put about 10 fish in it....Remember when comparing tanks to nature...water volume....We come nowhere close to matching nature in that regard.

In conclusion...Do whatever you want to do but remember most old timers and all breeders do BB. There has got to be a reason. I learned the reason many, many years ago when I raised my first set of discus.

-john

In a few words he is exactly right...
Since I live in an area of warm climate year round, I use to grow aquatic plants in the backyard and to control mosquitos I added small fish. In no time this fish are healthier, bigger and with better colors. So I started placing Rams and apistos in vats or tanks 20-30 gallons full of vegetation. They came out beautifull. But beacause of the food added I still needed weekly water changes...
In a bigger volume of water it may have been somewhat unnecessary. For this reason, when doing discus on planted tanks, my preffered starting size of the fish are at least 4" and at least 20-30 gallons per adult fish I you want to do WC on a weekly basis..Otherwise you end up with sub-par discus!!

dandestroy
07-06-2006, 06:27 PM
hey alight just groing marandra is an exploit in itself so good job

Catfish Junkie
07-07-2006, 10:25 PM
WOW!!! I am almost sorry I asked the question. JUst to give a few of the tank parameters: 75 gal HEAVILY planted tank, lowtech, Fluval 404 and Eheim 2213 canisters using peat inside. Water quality is pristine. multiple communiies of shrimp and 6 Corys and a 4in Pictus cat. The tank is very clean, all food is completely gone within ten minutesThe 2 discus I have are really very nice about 2.5- 3in. Problem is that the one is truely king of the tank. It bullies the other into near constant hiding. I want nothing more to grow these the healthiest, biggest, and brightest genetically possible. I think that is the goal of any, all discus keepers. My WC schedual has just been set up for the planted, however, after reading these posts I will most llikely dedicate the other 18gal hex I've got to the discus for the time being. Changing 20gal of water every other day on top of the fact that it would need pH adjustment and water softening. The water here in soCal is perfect for African Cichlids, hard and alkaline. Don't think I can keep healthy discus in this water without buffering.
Anyway thank you all for your insight and experiences, sorry to cause such turmoil. Thanks agian.

tpl*co
07-07-2006, 10:42 PM
With 2 discus putting them in an 18 gallon won't stop the agression. You'd need to up the numbers of discus to spread it out. I wouldn't rule out keeping them in your 75 planted. Just keep in mind feeding 3-5 times a day and keeping the water quality up (and get yourself about 2-3 more discus!).

Tina

Catfish Junkie
07-07-2006, 11:06 PM
yeah the wife and I plan to get more. The problem with agression I know won't go away and would probably get worse in a tank that small.

Tony_S
07-08-2006, 05:56 AM
sorry to cause such turmoil


These BB vs. planted threads can get pretty heated...but...
Turmoil?? Naaaaahh.....this thread was pretty tame actually! I didnt get one single nasty PM this time around!!:D (although Im sure Marie wanted to send me one);)


The problem with agression I know won't go away and would probably get worse in a tank that small.

If your having aggression problems in the planted tank, I would STRONGLY recommend that you DONT put the two discus(didnt realize you only had two) in a BB tank....99% chance you'll end up with one discus if you do.

Tony

Catfish Junkie
07-08-2006, 08:25 AM
That's kind of what I was thinking. Maybe I'll grow out the other in a BB. Thanks again for everything, this has been very helpful.