Ferts and Algae and More [Archive]

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marilyn1998

07-06-2006, 07:07 PM

I have done so much reading on so many different kinds of algae that I am totally confused.

I have a 90G kept at 85 degrees because I have 8 discus, 20 cardinals, 3 rams and 3 bushynose plecos.
I run 186W of Flo lighting, 130W is compact. I run an AQ110 with a prefilter and a Filstar XP3 with a prefilter. Substrate is pebble rock, about 1" deep. Plants are root fed in clay pots with just the rock substrate. (WIll change that when I am done scaping). I do EI lighting and ferts using Greg Watson PMDD 1/16th tsp and 2 caps of Excel daily. On 7th day I do 50% WC, and run a 24W UV for 24 hours.

I got rid of green water about 2 weeks ago, but it seems that it is trying to come back. Water looks to be getting pale green tinge. I ran the UV again. Also, on my Ludwigia Peruensis and my Crypt Wendtii I have pulled off what seems to a green "root" looking strand with some nubs along it. (kinda like I would imagine duckweed to start as?) Read about thread algae, but it isnt thick at all. Just about half a dozen strands.

I have alot ot new growth on my water sprite, all my swords, and my anubias nana. My ludwigia repens is also getting bushier and taller.

My water params are ammonia at 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, KH 5, GH 7, phosphate 1.0 and iron at .1.

Should I be adding more KNO3 to get my nitrates up? is this the reason that I have green water starting again? my ammonia spiking? My tank has been running for 6 months. I cleaned my AQ about 8 days ago, and the Filstar is two weeks old. I run my light 10 hours on a timer.

No deaths, no plant matter hanging around that is dying. I dont understand an ammonia spike happening. I doubt my test kits are right. My nitrates HAVE to higher than 0. I have a full fish load and only do WC once a week. Tomorrow I am adding more plants. adding 10 vals, an onion plant, another repens, 5 pots of dwarf hairgrass, a red temple, and 2 mexican oak plants.
Will this help me out?
Any suggestions?
adding CO2 is not an option for me.

So, I am seeing these rootlike things that "pull" when I remove them, I am seeing a green tinge to the water and it "smells" like plants, and I also have these spots of algae on the glass that are dark brown/black and wont come off with the magnet scrubber.

IF I need to add KNO3, how much? I have all the Greg Watson ferts here:
KNO3 K2SO4 KH2PO4 MgSO4 CSM+B and PMDD. So adding something wont be a problem.

Other than that... the plants and fish are ALL doing great!!!!

lhforbes12

07-06-2006, 08:04 PM

Marilyn,
Your algae sounds like BBA (black brush/beard algae). Is it difficult to remove? You can safely run your UV 24/7 if think that will help. I'm unclear why you think you have a NH3 (Ammonia) spike when your test kit reads 0 ppm. can you clarify that? I think your NO3 test kit is bad. I know from experience that they only tend to last about 6 months and then will give you false negative readings. If your plants are growing you have NO3. I wouldn't add more fertilizers at this time, at least not yet. You are already adding carbon with the Excel, your ferts look perfect to me (other than the 0 ppm NO3, which I already discussed).

marilyn1998

07-06-2006, 08:55 PM

lhforbes12

07-06-2006, 09:15 PM

I was thinking I was having an ammonia spike since I was under the impression green water comes from excess ammonia. For a low light tank, I feel the plantws are growing FAST. My water sprite (from you) was trimmed down to about 4 inches high. I know low light they grow sideways, and it is now at least 6 inches wide. My ludwigia has groewn about 4 inches in height.

I doubt seriously that you are having a NH3 spike. Marilyn it sounds to me like you are doing very well actually.

The glass algae is very hard to get rid of. I am going to try a scraper tomorrow.

It's most likely GSA (Green Spot Algae) and yes it does love to grow on glass, also on the leaves of slow growing plants with broad leaves, like Anubias. I have always used one of those 3M green pot scrubber thingies (of course no soap) and they work very well for me. Running your UV more often will probably eliminate it.

Do you think if I went down to just 130 watts it would help??? I would keep everything else the same. Also, I would run the uv 24/7. I have two light fixtures. One is 56W and one is 130W of cpmact light.

Strangely, the water isnt looking green tonight at all. Go figure.

I don't think too much light is your problem. Algae was already in your tank with it's spores just waiting for an oppotunity to grow. The UV will end this for you, probably sooner than later.

Do you think that threadlike stuff is duckweed starting up?

That is definately possible. My last shipment from a nursery had some duckweed in it. I tried my best to get it out before I sent it to you, but you know how that horrid stuff is...

Marilyn,
To my mind you are doing a great job with your tank and are actually having good success. Algae happens to everyone, even me sometimes.
Your UV was a good choice, just use it a bit more often and I think you will see even further improvement. Keep dosing the ferts like you have been and don't worry about your NO3 test kit, use your eyes instead, they are actually far better than a test kit.

traco

07-06-2006, 09:39 PM

Hey Marilyn, we've got the same size tank and roughly the same for fish. I have not added any liquid fertilizers to my tank since putting the plants in. I have added root tabs to the substrate plants. I do not have algae issues either on the plants, glass or substrate.

I haven't delved too much into fertilizers, ratios, etc.... The only thing I have noticed in the last week is my ludwigia losing it's top leaves. Don't know if it is lighting or lack of nutrients.

You just added a canister filter? To run a UV? It'll be interesting to see what everyone has to say about your water problem. Sorry you are going through all this green water cr*p! Hope it improves for you. Don't you hate playing the waiting game?:p Don't give up.

marilyn1998

07-07-2006, 09:52 AM

Larry,

Thanks so much for the encouragement!!! I will try to have more patience and faith. I actually do think my plants and tank are doing great!!! I would be lost without you. As far as the duckweed, I dont mind it much. Just hoping it wasnt some kind of algae. Picking it off isnt too bad, and there isnt that much. Hell, if I can grow something that was small enough I couldnt see, it must be going good, eh?
I will continue as I am and just run the UV.

Barb,

I got the cansiter filter because I broke my other HOB. It REALLY makes a big difference. I thought the water before was crystal clear, but now it is AWESOME. And the green tinge has gone away. I truly think that I am just dealing with the remnants of the old green water. And I got THAT by dumping in seachem ferts by the instructions on the bottle. (i dumped all the kinds they had.) I have learned much since then.
My UV filter actually is one from petsmart that has its own powerhead attached. I learned from Larry and Big Al's that my Filstar xp3 was way too powerful for the inline UV to do any good.

As far as your ludwigia, I have had the same problems with mine. The peruensis and also my red temple lose leaves all the time. I took them out, pulled off ALL leaves that were weak, dark, curly and otherwise not perfect, then replaced the plants. This was more so I wouldnt carry a net around every time I went by the tank.

What I found was:
(1) The plant has now grown about 4 inches in 2 weeks.
(2) The top leaves are very very red and large and healthy.
(3) The stalk of the plant that was bare is now FULL of small rosettes of leaves that seem to be growing well.

I know nothing about what this means, but it could be that (like roses) the plant wastes energy on old, diseased and dying leaves. The light can penetrate better to the lower leaves. And maybe it is just time for the old leaves to drop off to make way for new leaves.

Very scientific, eh???? But I am having the same results as you are.

My new mantra:

Plants are cheap and they dont have feelings. They can look dead and come back to life as soon as you forget about them. Too much care and they wither, ignore them and they prosper! (not really, but that is what I am saying and I am sticking to it!)

Good Luck. And thanks Barb and Larry!!!

Alight

07-07-2006, 10:57 AM

Maralyn, the green stringy stuff is not algae or duckweed. You've describe a bladder wort. It's invasive like duckweed, so remove all you see. It's not as bad as duckweed to keep at bay, thank goodness.

Your nitrate test kit is definitely no good.

Try this. You have KNO3 from Greg Watson, right? Use the following link to mix up a 10 ppm batch of KNO3. http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm?chemnum=8&amt_grams=4.8&amt_tsp=1&amt_tbsp=0.33&h2oamt=500&tanksize_gal=55&tanksize_liters=208.2&mixppm=0.03+ppm+Phosphate&targetppm=.5-1ppm+Phosphate

Or just add 1/3 teaspoon of KNO3 to 1 quart of water. Now add 10 ml of this quart of water to another quart of water. 10ml is twice the amount in an A P test lot tube filled up to the test line. Same for the test tubes with the Hagen (tetra) test kits. It's also two capfulls of a flourish cap.

This will give you 11 ppm NO3. Now test this solution with your test kit. You should read right around 10 ppm. If you are reading 0, get a new test kit, and calibrate it against this same solution. Always calibrate new test kits with this solution.

It is very possible that your green water is being caused by way too much nitrate, which is possible using EI and the water changes you are using in a low tech tank.

You almost certainly have no NH4. NH4 test kits are usually on the mark, and with the plants you have, is unlikely anyway.

marilyn1998

07-07-2006, 08:12 PM

Thanks Al for the tip!! I will check that out.

Added some more plants today and am amazed at looking back to what the tank was just a few months ago. Putting some pics up on the photos thread. Come check it out!!!

Thanks to all who have helped me get this far!

Dissident

07-08-2006, 01:56 PM

Here is the problem as I see it:
You will be fighting algae for as long as you have that tank.
Why?
3.5W/gallon you are adding ferts and don't have CO2.
Remember the W/gallon rule breaks down with smaller and larger tanks. In larger tanks you do not need 4-5W/gallon to be high-light. 3.5W/gallon in a 90gal would be considered high light. Same as 3.5W/gallon in a 10gal tank would be considered low-med light. Takashi Amano and Tom Barr both have reports on this somewhere.

If you absolutly cannot run CO2 you need to adjust some of the following:
Less ferts. K is fine, Mg is fine, Fe is fine. NO3 and PO4 will lead to problems in your current setup. Overdosing EXCEL will help a bit as will the UV. But if you figure the cost of EXCEL over the next 12months a pressurized CO2 system would be the better route.

You do not mention how long you are running the lights for either. I would cut back to be close to 2.5W/gallon if possible and keep lighting on for 8-10hrs.

lhforbes12

07-08-2006, 02:07 PM

Dis,
Uh... where are you getting 3.5 wpg? She has about 2 wpg...
btw I agree 100% with eveything else though.

Dissident

07-08-2006, 02:44 PM

I run 186W of Flo lighting, 130W is compact.

(186W NO) + (130W PC) = (316W Total) / (90gal) = (3.51 W/Gallon)

Dis,
Uh... where are you getting 3.5 wpg? She has about 2 wpg...
btw I agree 100% with eveything else though.

But I take it by your reply that it is:
(56W NO) + (130W PC) = (186W Total) / (90gal) = (2.06 W/Gallon)

By the 2nd equation you can ignore 99.9% of my previous post :o

LOL, I was wondering why NO ONE was making that connection (my previous post) in any of the previous posts regarding the most basic principal concept in algae prevention in a planted tank.

I was beginning to think Alight and Larry were losing it and I needed to hold a planted tank seminar for the two of you :p I was ready to smack you two on the head! (3.5W/Gal + no CO2 + Ferts = upside your head!) Guess I just need a lesson on English comprehension skills :o

lhforbes12

07-08-2006, 04:19 PM

Yep.
Al and I already knew from previous threads it was 2 wpg though. btw Marilyn would be a charter member of a "I Hate Vortex Diatom Filters" club, along with you, Connie and Jim. Actually I'm very suprised that Marilyn didn't send me a note or call me telling exactly where I could put a Vortex Diatom, considering the problems she had with one.

Larry

marilyn1998

07-08-2006, 09:18 PM

Diss,
Thanks for the advice, but I do run just 2 watts per gallon. Sorry for not being clearer. Also, I may eventually got to CO2 if I have to. My problem is bringing in ANYTHING for this tank that costs $$ or time for my husband to put together. WIth the CO2 it is more telling him HOW to set it up and since I am clueless.....

Larry,

The Vortex would have been GREAT, my problem as you know is with the MS. I just cant get the thing primed on my own. And the less I rely on my hubby the better off I am. He loves my tank and doesnt care I have it or buy for it, he just doesnt want ANY part of it as he already has sooooo many projects on his plate from me. ;)

Alight

07-08-2006, 11:12 PM

LOL, Diss, sorry you got in to that. Nice that you took an interest, though. Yeah, we knew from previous posts that she had 2 w/g.

I do think it is not outside the range of possibilities that her nitrates are too high for 2 w/g without CO2, though, which is why I suggested she check her nitrate test kit with the calibration solution. At least, if she can calibrate her test kit, she can quit worrying about the 0 nitrate readings.

I believe that nitrates over 15 ppm could be a problem, not only for the possible algae problem, but for the fish as well.

Her photo post showed a really nice clean tank, though, so it is possible that everything is fine.

Al

marilyn1998

07-10-2006, 08:54 PM

Al,

Finally calibrated my test kit to your solution. Came out 0 as predicted. So I Am gonna get a new one. I heard Red Sea is pretty good?

Right now I am trusting my eyes with thiws tank. Fish and plants all growing, spawning, healthy... so I think I am ok. Have some BN eating my swords, but that is ok. A bit of colorless algae spots on glass. Gonna leave it. Not hurting anything and all I read seems to say let the stuff burn itself out.

Gonna get the new kit just for instances when I need to know.

Thanks!!

traco

07-10-2006, 10:25 PM

Marilyn, do my fork thing for your BN. I just stick a piece of zucchini or cucumber on a fork and down it sinks for the pleco to eat. Or canned green beans, rinsed well, then a few in the tank. That will help your pleco get some food other than your sword plants.

Glad things are looking a bit better for you.:D

Alight

07-11-2006, 12:49 PM

I just use the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals nitrate test kits. Less expensive, and with the calibration solution, very accurate. They are quite different from kit to kit, and do change their sensitivity over time once they are opened, but they tend to get more sensitive, not less sensitive once they are opened. As little as you need to check the nitrates, it's easy just to mix up a calibration solution each time you need to check, and the reading should then be very accurate.

I don't believe that BNs will eat sword plants, unless the sword plant leaves have a problem. I recently noticed my swords weren't doing as well as previously. Did the help thing on the planted tanks site (you may have noticed it) and they suggested macros were low in the substrate. After thinking about it a while, I realized they were probably right, as the macros in the substrate probably were accumulated from mulm that got there before I put the root feeders in.

So, I used jobe plant spikes (1/2 for each small plant, two 1/2s for the larger plants) buried deep in the substrate near the plants roots. This seemed to solve the problem. I'm going to do the same with my potted sword plants since I've noticed that they, also, are beginning to show signs of getting "tired" (slower growth, older leaves turning yellow and disintigrating between the veins, and some necrotic spots on relatively new leaves). I'm guessing that it's leave like these that the BNS go after.

marilyn1998

07-11-2006, 07:52 PM

Barb,

I am gonna try the green beans tonight. I had forgotten about the fork thing.

Al,

I was using the AP test kits. (has 2 bottles? 10 drops each?) or is there another one? I will get some of the jobes sticks. I remember Larry saying that too. Damn, I just read too many new threads and forget everything!!!
Thanks.

lhforbes12

07-11-2006, 09:04 PM