Albino Angel Pair

[White Worm]

I got albino angels from kenny and they layed eggs and then were eating them. Their opovitors (sp?) (sex parts) were definately sticking out. Hey Kenny, explain the process with angels. What do I need to do? How do you know girl / boy with angels? Help?

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Mike - I'm no angel expert(nor discus expert)...I only bred these guys when I happened to have a pair out of 2 angels I got, so I'll let other angel experts answer your questions. I do think that the M's & F's tubes are in a way similar to discus' especially the females' being longer and more visible. I've also found that IME it's fairly difficult to have the parents raise their own frys, but not totally impossible. Sry I couldn't be of more help on this Mike.

Kenny

[Kindredspirit]

Mike ~ Ryan pretty much ....or Al are the Angel experts IMO ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Ryan]

Females will be fatter because they are full of eggs. They have a thicker, more blunt ovipositor. Males' ovipositors will be thin and pointed at the end.

If eggs are fertile they will hatch in 2 - 2 1/2 days depending on water temperature. The parents will probably move the wrigglers if they don't eat them. They will not go free-swimming for 5 days or so. Feed them newly hatched brine shrimp as soon as they go free-swimming.

Albino fry can be harder to raise because they're pretty much blind at first. It might be beneficial to keep them in a very small tank so that the brine are easier for them to find at first. Once the fry form a "cloud" after free-swimming I would suck up BBS in a piece of airline tubing and blow it directly into the center of the cloud of fry. The movement of the BBS should stimulate the fry to eat it.

Be aware that female angels will spawn with one another, so you may or may not have an actual pair.

If the angels eat the eggs, you can either A) let them try again, or B) remove the eggs next time and artificially hatch them.

Ryan

[White Worm]

I did water change and they were eating them rather quickly. How often do they lay eggs and at what age?

[Ryan]

Angels will spawn about the same age as discus, maybe a little earlier... 8 - 12 months. It seems to depend on the fish and how they've been raised. I would say 10 months old is probably a good average age.

If they are a true pair (bonded) and you pull the eggs and/or fry they will spawn every 7 days with the right conditions. I try to discourage this with some of my pairs because they get run down really fast, especially the female.

Ryan

[Ed13]

Ryan is the expert here, but more often than not Angels don't make good parents. I would wait until the confirmation of male and female, let them make a few trys on their own, and if they turn out as bad parents pull the eggs and artificially raise them.
Ryan, correct me if my method is wrong please.

[White Worm]

Thanks, I will keep you updated if they lay eggs again and i will get some pics of their parts. They were much easier to see than discus parts. Very obvious that they must have just got finished when i went to look.

[Ryan]

I don't agree with the "angels don't make good parents" theory. I have only artificially raised one batch of angels in all the time I've kept and bred them, and eventually that pair got it right too. I think it depends on how much patience you're willing to have with a pair.

I think a lot of angel breeders are quick to pull a spawn from the pair if they don't get it right in 3 or 4 tries, but I've had it take up to 7 or 8 tries in order for pairs to get it right. I think this has to do with them being young and inexperienced, which is a good reason to wait and let them practice.

Another theory is that angels who've been tank-bred or heavily line bred or inbred for a long time sort of have the parental instinct "bred" out of them, because breeders pull the eggs as soon as they're laid and don't give the pairs a chance to try and raise. This is an interesting theory and I think there could be something to it.

Mike, I would let them try several times. You've got nothing but time. You will save yourself a lot of headache if your pair can parent-raise because they'll do all the work of fanning the eggs and cleaning the wrigglers, and you won't have to worry about things like fungus for the first two weeks.

Ryan

[White Worm]

They are in community tank right now and layed eggs on the intake tube to the filter. I will let them practice for a while because i dont have a tank for them right now. I have yellows in QT and scarlets coming so the angels will have plenty of time to practice. I may just set up a 10g for those two to have fun but not right now.

[Ed13]

I think a lot of angel breeders are quick to pull a spawn from the pair if they don't get it right in 3 or 4 tries, but I've had it take up to 7 or 8 tries in order for pairs to get it right. I think this has to do with them being young and inexperienced, which is a good reason to wait and let them practice.


Ryan

Guess this is what I was doing wrong, by the third try if they didn't caught up by then I would do it myself. In retrospect, I gave away such a beautifull couple of Koi's for no reason at all. Oh well....

[JeffreyRichard]

Ryan is the expert here, but more often than not Angels don't make good parents. I would wait until the confirmation of male and female, let them make a few trys on their own, and if they turn out as bad parents pull the eggs and artificially raise them.
Ryan, correct me if my method is wrong please.

I will confirm Ryan's opinion ... having had upwards of 100 pairs going over the past 15 years, I've found MOST pairs will raise their own spawns if you let them. Here's my rule of thumb:

- If you want to increase the likelyhood of a successful spawn, or want to maximize the number of fry that survive, pull the eggs (assuming the eggs are laid on a removable object such as slate, leaf, etc). Eggs can easily be hatched in anything from a 1 gallon bowl to a 2.5 gallon tank (my choice) up to a 10 gallon tank. Use clean water with a med (I use formalyn, 2 drops per gallon; but meth blue and acuflavine are also used) to help control fungus. Keep the h2o between 80 and 82 degrees for best results ... eggs will hatch in 2-3 days and fry will go free swimming in 6 to 7 days. Feed newly hatched brine shrimp once fry go free swimming. You can start to change water at that point ... also add a sponge filter.

- If you don't care about the size of the spawn, let the parents raise the fry. They'll fan the eggs and pick out the unhatched and deformed. I find spawn sizes are 1/4 to 1/2 the size of the artificially hatched spawn ... but that is still easily 50 - 100 fry in many cases.

You'll need to spread the spawn out frequently (or cull big-time) to get good growth.

Also, as Ryan states, albino fry are nearly blind, and much weaker than other varieties from my experience. I never was able to raise more than 33 albino spawns in all my years of breeding angels. The trick, I've heard, is to keep the newly hatched/free swimmers in a small container (2.5 gallons) and flood this with live baby brine. This does require LOTS of water changes, but anyone breeding discus knows the drill.

Good luck