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traco
07-30-2006, 10:47 PM
Then the top leaves start dropping off. It is the red ludwigia that this is happening to. I don't dose anything but did put root fertilizer tablets under each clump of plants when planting them.

Just not enough light for this plant I'm thinking? Would that cause the black showing up on the stems?

I do have some Flourish Excel and have not used any fertilizers to go into the water column. Afraid of algae bloom. But I guess the plants are telling me they aren't happy?

Don't want to go high tech either in lighting, CO2, high dosing of liquid fertilizers. Is there a happy medium I can achieve? I do water changes of 50% every couple/three days.

The cryps, 5 different swords, onion plants and a grass type are all doing well.

Hope this picture shows what I'm talking about.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/traco1/IMG_28581.jpg

Dissident
07-30-2006, 11:30 PM
not enough light. They are slowly rotting away at the stem. Very few stem plants will survive long in a low-light tank.

traco
07-31-2006, 12:00 AM
Damn, Diss. So all my substrate plants will slowly die away with the lighting I've got? I can't afford to buy another light strip. :(

lhforbes12
07-31-2006, 12:14 AM
not enough light. They are slowly rotting away at the stem. Very few stem plants will survive long in a low-light tank.

This is wrong, the correct answer is "not enough light. They are slowly rotting away at the stem. Very few stem plants will survive long in a low-light tank so get different plants". Like Anubias, cryptocorynes, java fern, sword plants, Sagittaria subulata, mosses.

Dissident
07-31-2006, 12:33 AM
These plants should be fine:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=51980

Larry your reply confuses and intregues me ;)
you quote me say im wrong and then give my reply as the correct answer? /scratch head
(other than adding 'get new plants')



Stem plants are different from what you refer to as 'substrate plants'. I guess if you only had the 2 options stem and substrate type plants, substrate palnts would get their nutriants from the substrate and stem plants would get theirs from the water column.
Most 'substrate plants' like larry mentioned in his cryptic reply would work fine; crypts, swords, sag, etc would work fine for you. But all things considered what is your lighting and tank size?

lhforbes12
07-31-2006, 09:02 AM
These plants should be fine:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=51980

Larry your reply confuses and intregues me ;)
you quote me say im wrong and then give my reply as the correct answer? /scratch head

Then my work here is done, as that is exactly what I was aiming for.
(I was merely being funny Dis, in fact I WAS agreeing with you.)

However I do not subscribe to the substrate fertilization in your second post. That is merely another myth, just like too much PO4 in the water column causes algae, that has been brought down over the years. You have seen my Echinodorus and Cryptocorynes, they get zero substrate fertilization, do they look nutrient deprived to you?

traco
07-31-2006, 10:38 AM
So, that would explain why my crypts, anubias and swords are doing fine. I am getting new leaves on these plants.

I did know that the "red" plants need higher lighting. But didn't know about "stem" plants and "substrate" plants.

Diss, my tank is the standard 90 gallons, lighting is 2 power compacts (130 watts total) and 2 fluorescent bulbs (either 64 or 80 watts total).

So adding fertilizer to the water column would help or hinder? Will it cause algae?

Dissident
07-31-2006, 11:13 AM
Then my work here is done, as that is exactly what I was aiming for.
(I was merely being funny Dis, in fact I WAS agreeing with you.)



Sorry I had to redo a friend's home-office and set up yahoo mail for pop3 access and only 1/4 of the email would pass throgh the yahoo pop3 server to Outlook2003pro and I wasted 3 hours with those idiots because they didn't take the time to type a disclaimer; 'it may take upto 30min for your settings to fully take effect' blablablablablabla. so I guess I was a little sloooow

Dissident
07-31-2006, 11:16 AM
So, that would explain why my crypts, anubias and swords are doing fine. I am getting new leaves on these plants.

I did know that the "red" plants need higher lighting. But didn't know about "stem" plants and "substrate" plants.

Diss, my tank is the standard 90 gallons, lighting is 2 power compacts (130 watts total) and 2 fluorescent bulbs (either 64 or 80 watts total).

So adding fertilizer to the water column would help or hinder? Will it cause algae?

For good low-light red plants:
Ruben Sword, Tiget lotus, there are a few red crypts also

Don't fert the algae column, Larry had it right 'get different plants'. Dosing the water will give you algae.

Kindredspirit
07-31-2006, 11:20 AM
Dosing the water will give you algae.


So why do people dose Dis? Thanks for the tips on low light plants guys!!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

Dissident
07-31-2006, 11:38 AM
So why do people dose Dis? Thanks for the tips on low light plants guys!!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

It is a ballance between CO2 ferts and Lighting.
The ferts + High CO2 + High Light will make the plants grow fast and out-compeat the algae for the nutriants in the water. If there is excess nutriants in the water, ie NO3 the plants will not be able to use the NO3 fast enough so the algae will use it and grow. Some ferts like Fe need Mg added at the same time, Mg allows plants to use Fe more efficantly so that way the algae again cannot take-hold. Some plants use nutriants faster than others, so it is good to have a nice ballance between root feeders and stem plants to help keep algae under controll.When setting up a high-tech planted tank you are re-creating the ideal conditions for plant growth which happen to be the same ideal conditions for algae growth, so it is a race to see who will win, the plants or the algae.

traco
07-31-2006, 12:05 PM
Good one Marie. I wonder the same thing. Do you have to be a rocket scientist to grow live plants?:confused: Is there a fine line when adding liquid fertilizers to the water?

Oops, too slow in typing as I just read Diss's answer.

marilyn1998
07-31-2006, 12:39 PM
Depending on how many plants you have, the amount of light, and the amount (or lack) of excel/CO2 will depend on the amount of ferts (if any) you will need. As Larry and Diss say, it is a balancing act.
There are many thoughts out there on what you need to do, but the ONE thing to remember is.. RESEARCH.

If you dont want a high tech tank, (me, Barb, Marie) then you watch what plants you have! I have tried alot of them. And mix and match among the plants and the lighting helps me decide what I need to do. I am sooo close to getting it right! (for me and my tank).

I have 1.5 watts per gallon right now which is DOWN from 2 watts. I found 2 watts gave me green spot algae. Not a bad one to get at all if you have to get one. Easy to get rid of.

I have lowered my ferts to almost nothing. I am still adding excel, since I am now moderate to heavily planted. I added a bit of potassium to help my swords and am sticking to just root tabs for now as that seems to be a good balance for me and the tank. Everything is growing well, healthy, and my fish are active and spawning.

Here are the plants I have: crypt wendtii bronze, amazon sword, osiris sword, melon sword, water sprite, ludwigia repens, anubias nana, and a green temple. I am going to add some horn wort and anacharis because they have medicinal effects against bacteria. Dunno how they will do.

Everything in this tank is HUGE except the green temple. Funny, that is the stem plant. the rest are bunch plants.

the plants that didnt do well for me are red temple, ludwigia perunensis, ambulia, the onion plant (I know Barb yours is great. mine rotted at the bulb.)
I had some hair grass and a val but they melted and ended up with leaves floating around the tank, something I cant stand!

The way they were planted could have also helped in the fact I didnt grow those well.

Anyway, HTH!!!!! And my green water was cuz I went NUTS with the ferts all at once. Just asking for trouble.

traco
07-31-2006, 12:45 PM
Hey, thanks Marilyn. I was thinking of your tank when I saw the plants start losing leaves. Same tank, roughly same bioload and your tank you finally are seeing some positives.:D

I guess I can just do trial and error. After all, most of the plants are cheap and if they don't thrive, well I can try a different type. I got a new bottle of Flourish Excel; might dose lightly once a week. Can't hurt.:o

marilyn1998
07-31-2006, 12:49 PM
Barb,

I know about the sameness. And yes, plants are cheap! THe excel gives CO2 for the plants to do better during the lighted hours. If you have many plants, that is needed. I am now battling a bit of slime algae on my repens upper leaves. I finally bit the bullet and lowered the height. IT was near the top!!! Now, not as close to the lighting, it is doing well. Water sprite is a good one. It grows like a weed both tall and wide!!! Nice for covering up the heater or tubing. ;)

Good Luck and let us know what works!

lhforbes12
07-31-2006, 12:54 PM
I had some hair grass and a val but they melted and ended up with leaves floating around the tank, something I cant stand!.
The way they were planted could have also helped in the fact I didnt grow those well.

Actually two plants known to have a problem with Excel for some reason, especially if it's over-dosed.

marilyn1998
07-31-2006, 12:56 PM
Larry,

Thanks, I didnt know that!! I knew anacharis doesnt like it... but I am hoping to get it to work anyway.

Dissident
07-31-2006, 01:00 PM
Actually two plants known to have a problem with Excel for some reason, especially if it's over-dosed.

Java ferns, windelov, bolbitis and most moss will die off if too much EXCEL is used as well. In extreme EXCEL OD anaubias and crypts will also melt.

FYI EXCEL is a source of organic carbon not CO2.

marilyn1998
07-31-2006, 01:01 PM
Diss,
I stand corrected. I thought organic carbon was synonymous with CO2. I told you all that math and science were NOT my strong point!

traco
07-31-2006, 01:09 PM
Any idea on what this new plant is? LFS did not know the name, thought it was some sort of val? It is a coarser grass type, not a soft flowing type of plant.

Onion plant is in front and then this grass type?

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/traco1/IMG_2863.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/traco1/IMG_2861.jpg

lhforbes12
07-31-2006, 01:16 PM
Barb,
The one larger grasslike plant closer to the foreground looks like Val. americana to me. The others also look like some other type of Val.

Actually, on closer look, I think I was mistaken. They both look more like a Sag to me. Perhaps Sagittaria lancifolia.

Kindredspirit
07-31-2006, 01:30 PM
Silk plants I say ~ still:o

traco
07-31-2006, 01:39 PM
I still have those around.:D

Alight
07-31-2006, 02:24 PM
Do you have to be a rocket scientist to grow live plants? Is there a fine line when adding liquid fertilizers to the water?


Well, I don't know how well rocket scientists do with live plants, but I'm a brain scientist, and I still haven't figured it all out. I guess it isn't rocket surgery (LOL).

So far, using a bunch of advice from people here, and from Tom Barr and others at the Plantedtank.net, I've managed to greatly reduce algae (in my high tech, high light tank), but it is by no means eliminated. Heck, I can even get all types of algae all at the same time (staghorn, hair, thread, blue-green, green spot, black beard, you name it!).

Seriously, the algae is under control, and the plants are all growing quite well, but I still have to use manual removal at each water change, or things wouldn't look so good.

So is there a fine line? For a low tech, low light tank, not really. I'd add no ferts to the column--the discus do that quite well thankyou. You might supplement the swords with root tabs if they begin to show signs of difficiency (necrotic holes, yellowing, early death of old leaves). Even some of the stem plants like a good root tab now and then (cabomba, wisteria, green temple). Plants should grow slowly and look pretty good. Algae should be pretty scarce, and if it occurs, should be easy to remove manually at water changes. You might need to clean the glass every 2 weeks or so is all.

I use job plant spikes for macros, and seachem tabs for micros for this purpose. Adds no ferts to the water column that I've been able to detect (if buried deep, anyway).

Kindredspirit
07-31-2006, 02:38 PM
I'm a brain scientist



I knew it Al. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_17_211.gif I so knew you were something very very important and smart to boot:) Much like Dis and Larry and Paul and Graham and Angela!

SO.......what is it exactly have you learned??


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif

traco
07-31-2006, 02:48 PM
Thanks Al.:) I do add fert tabs underneath the plants; maybe I should add more often? Once a month maybe? And the Job sticks work fine or better to stick with aquarium products for fertilizing?

Dissident
07-31-2006, 03:32 PM
You have to be carefull with jobe sticks. They are very high in PO4 and if you get them into the water column you will end up with some really nice algae.
I prefer the sera root-tabs for my rosette plants and crypts, the jobe sticks are for terresterial ferns, the reason ppl use them is because they do work well for aquatic plants and they are inexpensive.
Myself, I will spend the extra couple bucks to get ones that are formulated for aquatic plants and will not mess the water if they are dug up on accident.

Even in my low-tech tank I will add Fe, K, Ca, Mg about 1/month to help out a bit. I don't use much for substrate ferts except in my high-tech tanks where plants almost need the extra ferts because of the high-light and CO2. High-tech tanks will show neutriant defincies faster because the plants want to grow faster and without the proper ballance or enough of the right ferts the leaves will turn yellow, get holes, die off quickly, etc. Since substrate is the 'safest' way to fertalize a tank it is a nice suppliment for some plants. But it is not the solve-all for planted tanks by far.

A lot of the fun (for me) with planted tanks, both HT and LT, is trying different plants and seeing which ones grow the best given what tank they are in. It is also a great learning process for Planted Tanks, starting with a LT tank and adding more as you go finally getting to the HT point. The first thing anyone should add before upping light is CO2 and getting familiar with the system. Then add more light and then going to (powerded/liquid) ferts.

traco
07-31-2006, 03:44 PM
Thanks, Diss. So it looks like it is a "work in progress" when going with live plants. I also would rather pay a bit more for the fertilizer tablets as they are specifically made for aquariums.

Dissident
07-31-2006, 04:03 PM
Thanks, Diss. So it looks like it is a "work in progress" when going with live plants. I also would rather pay a bit more for the fertilizer tablets as they are specifically made for aquariums.

I have never tried these:
http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/pr1328.htm

but I have heard good things. and $9 for 50 tabs is a good price. Beats the $12 for 25 tabs at my LFS for the sera tabs.
And you can get some new plants at the same time, I have ordered from them a bunch and they always do a great job.

lhforbes12
07-31-2006, 04:23 PM
I no longer feed through the substrate, and I'm kind of suprised that Al brought up Tom Barr in conjunction with substrate feeding since Tom calls it "pointless". That said, using a tablet formulated for aquaria is usually the best choice since most of them have trace elements included in the mix, and they don't use Urea for NO3 (Urea being bad for fish).
btw, I really shouldn't say that I don't use root tabs at all, I do use them in the BB tanks, I add them to the pots, but of course, I don't fertilize the water column in those tanks. I prefer water column fertilizers only in the planted tanks since I can somewhat control the, far too often, rampant growth of Echinodorus and Cryptocorynes that way. I use Seachem's Root Tabs, but only because I bought a boat load of them before I knew better. As to PO4 and NO3 causing algae when in high amounts in the water column, this has been pretty much been debunked by Tom Barr. I know I really don't have any algae to speak of (and no Al and Dis, I'm not going to proseytize about a diatom filter) but that's mainly due to somewhat careful dosing of ferts and using CO2. Of course Al and Dis could, correctly, say that I have high tech tanks and so this doesn't necessarily apply. I disagree at least somewhat, I think with careful dosing even a low tach tank can benefit from fert dosing. It's all in just how careful you are willing to be. I believe for most, dosing by using substrate fertilizers is probably the easiest and safest method.
Hmmmmmm... that was rather long winded and round about even for me, especially since I could have just said "I agree with Dis and Al"

Larry

Dissident
07-31-2006, 04:30 PM
"I agree with Dis and Al"

Larry

Of course you do :D

One thing about substrate ferts, with an established substrate Larry, Tom and the others are right on about it not being really necessary. In a newly set up tank IME it is a good way to kick-start the seeding of the substrate, espically if you are not using flourite, eco, soilmaster, etc.

traco
07-31-2006, 04:46 PM
Phew, a lot to learn and absorb. So, my tank is a "new" tank with the substrate as it's only a couple of months that it has been in. So adding the root tab ferts. will definately benefit the plants. I did not use any fluorite, eco-complete, etc... just sand and a bit of gravel.

It shouldn't create a huge algae spawn if I do add the Flourish Excel once a week after a water change? It calls for a capful for every 10 gallons. My tank is a 90 gallon so even if I half dosed, it might benefit the stem plants?

And Diss, I'll go to that website you linked for me and check it out.

Thanks all for your replies. I find I still am learning so much here and with you experienced peeps here, a benefit.:D

Dissident
07-31-2006, 04:57 PM
Phew, a lot to learn and absorb. So, my tank is a "new" tank with the substrate as it's only a couple of months that it has been in. So adding the root tab ferts. will definately benefit the plants. I did not use any fluorite, eco-complete, etc... just sand and a bit of gravel.

It shouldn't create a huge algae spawn if I do add the Flourish Excel once a week after a water change? It calls for a capful for every 10 gallons. My tank is a 90 gallon so even if I half dosed, it might benefit the stem plants?

And Diss, I'll go to that website you linked for me and check it out.

Thanks all for your replies. I find I still am learning so much here and with you experienced peeps here, a benefit.:D

Flourish EXCEL will not cause algae, in fact it has a algacide in it so in 2x doseing it can kill algaes in time. You can continue to dose it every day and you will be fine. The only drawback is that it is much more expensive than getting a pressurized CO2 system.

Figure:
10ml EXCEL/Day in a 100gal (500ml bottle for $10/bottle) will last 50 days. Round to 60 days = 2months so for 1yr you will buy 6 bottles of EXCEL for one tank.
Figure:
Complete CO2 system = ~$140 + $5 to fill a 5lb tank and it can be ran on multiple planted tanks.

It all depends on what you want to do and how much you want to invest at this point of having a planted tank.

EXCEL is not CO2, it is an organic carbon that plants can use like they use CO2 but not as efficantly.

http://gregwatson.com/
Where I get my EXCEL from usually a few bottles at a time for my LT tanks, and sometimes I will dose it in my CO2 tanks.

Alight
07-31-2006, 05:25 PM
One thing about substrate ferts, with an established substrate Larry, Tom and the others are right on about it not being really necessary. In a newly set up tank IME it is a good way to kick-start the seeding of the substrate, espically if you are not using flourite, eco, soilmaster, etc.


Good reminder here Diss. This is exactly why I use the job spikes. When I first went high tech, all of my plants grew very well with no algae. However, this tank had been a low tech Discus tank for more than a year before that so the gravel (plain gravel) was very well conditioned with appropriately rich mulm. This got used up over time (high tech-high light really makes for fast growth by everything, including the rooted plants), which is when I started having algae problems and slow growth problems, and necrosis with my swords, etc. The plant spikes worked wonders for these problems.

I was very cautious at first, because I didn't want high PO4, nitrates, etc. in my water column. BTW, jobe spikes are slow release and contain no ammonia or urea. I measured PO4 and nitrate every day, and only added a couple of half spikes to start with. When the readings were not increased, I added more, then still more and the plants are almost back to their original growth rate, and algae has pretty much gone away. I've seen no increase in nitrates or PO4 in the water column caused by adding these. I put them at least an inch deep in the gravel, and am careful to put them in places where I won't be ripping them up, although one did come up when I pulled some Red Temple to trim it. The spike was completely engulfed in the roots.

I'd have to say that if you do not measure nitrates and PO4 often, they are probably not a good thing to use in excess.

It would be nice to have the micros as well as the macros together. But $3 for a lifetime supply (on sale) just seemed easier as a try out to see if macro spikes might help than the aquarium specific alternatives.

I suspect that the plant spikes are really the ticket for potted plants in the aquarium.

OK, that's what I learned, Marie!

So, everyone was right. I needed more, not less ferts. I just needed them in the right place, since I have 3/4 heavy root feeders, and only 1/4 column feeders.

One observation as a possible caution for those using Excel. I have to verify this with some real experiments. I noticed that my pin point pH probe went out of calibration after I used Exel. I bought a new probe so I could clean the old one and this one also went out after I used Excel.

I've quit using Excel and no longer have a problem with calibration. It may be that the Exel forms a film on the surface of the probe, causing a problem with the calibratin. If you aren't using a pH probe, don't worry about it, but in a high tech tank where you might be using a Milwaukee controller either full time or as a back-up, it could be a problem.

Al

marilyn1998
07-31-2006, 07:36 PM
Dis, Al, Larry:

What is the name of the jobe plant sticks again? I forgot. I went to buy some and they had a zillion of kinds!!

Al,

You stopped Excel. How planted is your tank?? And do you add anything for the CO2/carbon then?? I would love to stop the excel. And if using just the root tabs and jobes... I can handle that!

My plants: crypt, swords, water sprite, ludwigia repens. hornwort and anacharis on Wednesday! I have a green temple I may try to keep. would root tabs be enough for all these?

Of course, I would keep an eye on the plants for deficiencies and treat accordingly. (change the routine as needed).

lhforbes12
07-31-2006, 08:08 PM
Barb,
You want the "Fern and Azalea" plant sticks, but really any with an even NPK will work fine.

Dis,
Your Excel, CO2 system review is a bit misleading IMO. Big Al's sells 4 liter bottles of Excel for $38, far more than a years supply using your calculations. While a CO2 regulator and cylinder can be had for $145, I know of no place that would sell these items new at so low a price, plus shipping would need to be added. Also, I pay closer to $15 to fill a 10 pound and 20 pound tank (really $12 something for the 10# and a dollar more for the 20#). So depending on where and when you buy it, a CO2 system and Excel can actually have a somewhat similar cost IMO. All that said, I think injecting CO2 is by far the easiest method and would be worth it even if it were more costly.

Al,
That was a nice presentation. I was especially interested in the Excel and fouling of a pH meter probe. I use Excel, but not on a regular basis, and I own a PinPoint pH meter, I haven't seen this with mine. I wonder if it has something to do with the Milwaukee meter?

Larry

Alight
07-31-2006, 11:33 PM
Maralyn, I have a CO2 injection system for the carbon. I'm at least at 40 ppm all of the time with that. The tank is very, very planted. Even the rocks and driftwood have Java ferns growing out of them, and there is no place with light that doesn't have high plants and understory plants. To give you an idea, I just gave away 2 pounds of plants to Frank (Hexed) and the tank is still totally full of plants.

Larry, it's not the meter, but the electrode that was messed up. I got a new electrode and everything was fine again until I dosed Exel again (this time not over dose, just normal dose) and it went out of calibration again. I cleaned the old electrode, but didn't test to see if that fixed everything. I've messed up electrodes a the lab with organic compounds in the past, but they usually clear up with a bit of hydrochloric acid.

The really bad part of the calibration contamination is that it happens between pH 6.5 and 5.5. pH 7 reads just fine still. 6.5 begins to read as 6.2, and so forth, so the tank is not getting enough CO2. Better than the other way around, I guess. At least this way, you don't kill your fish, you just get more algae.

I had thought the contamination might be just due to my tank changes, because the electrode would go dry between changes, so I put the electrode deeper in the tank so it wouldn't get uncovered between changes. This seemed to work, because the calibration stayed good until I used the excel again. Then, it went out again. Could be just a coincidence and time was really the culprit. Just thought I'd pass it on in case someone else noticed a similar problem.

Al