OK Geeks, I'm gonna join!!!!

[White Worm]

Since visiting some of those planted sites that diss and larry posted, I have decided that I cant resist having some nice real greenery in the tank. I have 85g with eclipse hood (bunch of discus). 4 large sponge filters, just added silica sand (monterey from home depot..fine). I am looking at starting simple first and then maybe....... I have about .5 inch of sand in there now just to see what it looks like and I love it (I think the discus enjoy it too) I put in a couple of rock formation decorations but most is a blank slate for plant decor. Thinking of some vals to start with across the back for background height. Maybe gigante or spiral/corkscrew? Sound like an idea? I want to start simple with no crazy substrate or ferts. Just throw them in and let em grow. I would think I have to fill sand in deeper when I put the plants in right? How deep ya think? I would also like to go with a few Medium plants spread out and then some grassy look for the front areas. I will post some pics of the tank tonight so you can get a feel for the layout.

[t_j]

I don't really know any thing about plants but too me it sounds like you have it all planed out and nicely I think.:)

[Kenny's Discus]

Check this out Mike. It has bunch of info re plants/planted tanks. It's free to join.

http://www.sfbaaps.com/forum.html

Kenny

[idiscussdiscus]

How much wattage does your tank have?

[White Worm]

Like I said, simple, lol. I have no idea. There is 4 bulbs in the eclipse hood. Cool, another plant site. I see Kenny......Sounds like you have been doing a little research too huh? I knew I sparked an interest, lol.

[Kenny's Discus]

Like I said, simple, lol. I have no idea. There is 4 bulbs in the eclipse hood. Cool, another plant site. I see Kenny......Sounds like you have been doing a little research too huh? I knew I sparked an interest, lol.

keke Mike...I did the research just for you. (j/k) You're right I'm a member there myself.

Kenny

[Dissident]

You will want 3"-4" substrate espically if you are going to have any swords or anaubias.... or any plant with roots ;)

You could start with a simple DIY CO2 system for ~$10USD
Lighting would be key to know. 4 bulbs, 4x48" or 4x24", it makes a big difference, or if the bulbs have wattages written on them. You can get retro kits for the hood for ~$100USD (2x96W).

Think you have a good start.

Plant list for low-light discus tank:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=51980

Good to see you moveing over to the real show tank forum ;)

[marilyn1998]

One thing I learned, is start with as many plants as you can. Even if you just get a bunch of "bunch plants", fast growers and float them. If you have enough plants competing in the tank, the algae wont get a foothold. Once you have things settled, then go ahead and scape out with the plants you like. Your list sounds good!!! Keep the light at less than 2 watts per gallon and you wont need ferts in the water, or add CO2. That is if you are choosing plants from the link Diss gave. If you go with swords, put in a root tab among the roots. 1/2 tgab will do. bury it deep so it doesnt rise to the surface.

WHoo hooo. And another one bites the dust.;) ;)

[wolfbane]

Mike, 'bout time you came to the planted side of the tank!! Come swim with the fishies in jungles of green! You really need to know your lighting to find plants that will do well, so turn off the lights and have a look at the bulbs!

[gdtrfb]

I agree, put in as many plants at once as you can. I have done this with my tanks and it has been a no fail way keep the algae away. Swords will grow nicely. I have found the anubias to aslo be fail safe. Round it out with some different shapes and textures, like crypts and vals and you've got a great start to the planted life. Substrate depth in a tank you size for the sword and anubis should be at least 3 inches. Good luck!

[traco]

Welcome to the planted side. I've only been doing live plants for a couple of months and am still learning things. Like right now with Diss saying substrate should be deeper. It makes sense for the substrate root plants so I am going to have to deepen my substrate.

I started with anubias and java fern tied to a piece of driftwood. Now I've got some swords that are doing well in there. I do put fert tabs under those plants. I don't add anything to the water column. My tank I think is classified as a low light/tech tank. It seems to be working so far. I've had good luck with:

swords
anubias
crypts
java fern

I have not had luck with:

cabomba
red ludwigia

Good luck, lots of reading and trial and error for plants.:)

[White Worm]

OK... Current Lighting on the 85G.

(Eclipse) Natural Daylight Bulbs... (4) F18T8 24" Bulbs. (2) Bulbs per assembly.
It says for replacement bulbs, I can use Any T8 Flourescent up to 18 watts.
Does that mean per bulb or per assembly?
Hey Kenny...I will soon!! I'll bet I see a planted show tank in the magic garage some day.
Diss...Good thing I bought 50lb bag and I might have to go back for a little more (maybe not). I went to Home Depot and got RMC Pacific Materials Lapis Lustre Sand. Clean, Graded, kiln dried, monterey silica beach sand. Sound like ok stuff? Looks real nice. Simple to start, no injection, no adding ferts, etc. I will advance as i get the hang of things. With my luck, I would do something wrong and make the fish sick....No thanks. Simple! Throw it in and it grows!
Thanks for the welcome Marilyn, wolf, gdtrfb and traco. After thinking about it for months and scanning some of the tanks with greenery.....I look at my BBB and that was it, I definately wanted the sand (which I did already) and then I will work my way up to the higher tech later. Where do you all order your plants from? Aquariumplants.com really breaks it down into beginner plants, discus tank, easy, difficult, needs, etc. Where else to look? How many of each would you all recommend? I dont want to pack the tank but I nice layered start.
Trial and error is why I want to start low and work my way up, lol.

[White Worm]

First three pics are some updates of the Millenium Gold and scarlets from Kenny. They are doing great. The scarlets are growing very fast!

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Mikeandlisa119/DSC_0010.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Mikeandlisa119/DSC_0009.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Mikeandlisa119/DSC_0008.jpg

Left side of tank.. Dont worry Kenny, Juliet (ocean green behind sponge filter) isnt sick. The lights had just been off for about 30 minutes and they were already preparing for a good nights sleep and I turned on the light for some pics. She wasnt very happy as you can see, lol.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Mikeandlisa119/DSC_0005.jpg

Right side of tank
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Mikeandlisa119/DSC_0003.jpg

Right side again
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Mikeandlisa119/DSC_0002.jpg

A close up of my new sand. Its thin but I didnt want to go too far in case i hated it. I actually really like it so it stays and i think I will have to raise sponge filters up.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Mikeandlisa119/DSC_0004.jpg

[Kindredspirit]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_13.gif

[marilyn1998]

I have gotten most of my plants from aquariumplants.com. THey do good and if you call will talk to you a long time and help with anything you need.
I have also gotten some from Larry, here... and from LFS.

But, like LFS and discus, I dont think alot of them do plants well. I dont have a good record. Most of their plants are grown EMERGED. meaning, when you replant them, the leaves will wilt, melt and die. But the replacement leaves will do fine! Just make sure you rinse plans well as they can bring with them snails, algae and some other plants!

If you buy from aquariumplants.com or aquabotanic.com you will do well. Or, let one of us here send ya some!!!!!

[Mike C.]

I think that sand as a substrate would compact too much and be too difficult to keep clean. Anerobic (lack of air) breakdown of the organic matter in the tank would begin and cause all kinds of problems. I have been successful with numerous types of plants using just the small gravel that is available in bulk at fish stores or the local hardware store. I have an inch to 1 1/2 inches to anchor my plants and the gravel stays loose and is easily siphoned clean.

I wish I knew the plant names better, but I have three Amazon swords that have been doing well for a couple of years. I also have some other various swords that need replacing every so often, but do okay. Water Sprite does very well, propagating itself continuously with little floating offshoots that I can place in the gravel when large enough. (I end up throwing a lot of the Water Sprite away because it does so well.) I also have some form of water lily with purple leaves that sends leaves up to the surface where they float. And then I have some little grassy groundcover that I don't know the name of that sends out roots that shoot up with new plants, spreading through the tank.

I use only the two florescent tubes that came with the hood. They are just general broad spectrum lights. No CO2 and no fertilizers except the leftover food and feces.

You can see my tank in the thread "Loves the Spawn" in the Community section. I have only my community tank, mostly discus, planted. My other three are bare for spawning purposes.

[Alight]

So caring for Discus got to easy for yah? Well you've opened a whole new Pandora's box!

Your best bet on plant is to get them from another Discus hobbiest who has a tank with similar conditions to yours. would be a good place to look for plants, and so would the plantedtank.net. Many are into trading or will sell you them for a fraction of the cost you'll pay at commercial sites. Aquariumplants.com and Aquabotanica have sent me really nice plants, but the shipping charges are a bit much.

You have such a good local planted aquarium group, I'd really recommend you get to know them.

Welcome to the "Dark Green Side"!

Al Light

[White Worm]

I have gotten most of my plants from aquariumplants.com. THey do good and if you call will talk to you a long time and help with anything you need.
I have also gotten some from Larry, here... and from LFS.

But, like LFS and discus, I dont think alot of them do plants well. I dont have a good record. Most of their plants are grown EMERGED. meaning, when you replant them, the leaves will wilt, melt and die. But the replacement leaves will do fine! Just make sure you rinse plans well as they can bring with them snails, algae and some other plants!

If you buy from aquariumplants.com or aquabotanic.com you will do well. Or, let one of us here send ya some!!!!!
Thanks, I think that is where I will order from. Isnt it bad to ship plants during summer months though (heat)?

[White Worm]

I think that sand as a substrate would compact too much and be too difficult to keep clean. Anerobic (lack of air) breakdown of the organic matter in the tank would begin and cause all kinds of problems. I have been successful with numerous types of plants using just the small gravel that is available in bulk at fish stores or the local hardware store. I have an inch to 1 1/2 inches to anchor my plants and the gravel stays loose and is easily siphoned clean.


I use only the two florescent tubes that came with the hood. They are just general broad spectrum lights. No CO2 and no fertilizers except the leftover food and feces.

.
Yes, it will compact...therefore....no need for the breakdown. Waste stays on top and I just vacuum it off (easy, did it last night, 10 minute vacuum and 20% wc) I hover vacuum right above sand and it sucks up all the waste. Small gravel actually causes more problems with pockets of rotting waste that you can never completely vacuum clean (I have been down that road, lol) When you think you have it clean, you dont.
Lights that came with the hood....thats what I am talking about...SIMPLE!

[White Worm]

So caring for Discus got to easy for yah? Well you've opened a whole new Pandora's box!

Your best bet on plant is to get them from another Discus hobbiest who has a tank with similar conditions to yours. would be a good place to look for plants, and so would the plantedtank.net. Many are into trading or will sell you them for a fraction of the cost you'll pay at commercial sites. Aquariumplants.com and Aquabotanica have sent me really nice plants, but the shipping charges are a bit much.

You have such a good local planted aquarium group, I'd really recommend you get to know them.

Welcome to the "Dark Green Side"!


Al Light
Lets not go that far Al... Easy? Uh No. Comfortable / somewhat experienced? Yes. I just need something different and eye pleasing for my living room. I think the discus actually enjoy the new environment and the sand. I have heard others say that they enjoy the plants also. I shall look into locals. Yep, I've opened it and crossed over. I think as long as you first get the hang of what is required in keeping discus and you do fairly well, why not? I think that it is important to know your fish, tank, etc and when you get the feel...Those of you who get it, know what I am talking about. You just know when something isnt right without doing tests. You can just look at one specific fish and their actions explain it. Then you can move on with different areas of the hobby. Plants, breeding, etc. Most problems come from lack of patience and buying the first thing you see and doing it all at once. I did it and I think all newbies have the problem until they come here and get the facts. Alot of sickness and quality issues could be handled if more people did their research.

[Dissident]

Part of the problem of compacted and anarobic substrates is that the roots rot and the plant dies. The substrate becomes like concrete and the roots cannot penitrate it.

[gdtrfb]

I have also had good luck here http://www.azgardens.com/habitats_discus.php
Also very helpful people. The plant tools, tongs and scissors are great.

You mentioned a grass like front and then I see the background on your tank. Those "lawn" type of plants will need some of the high tech stuff you are going to stay away from. Also, as a rule of thumb - red needs higher light.

Just the sand makes things look pretty good.

[White Worm]

Part of the problem of compacted and anarobic substrates is that the roots rot and the plant dies. The substrate becomes like concrete and the roots cannot penitrate it.
What about small pebble base around roots and then cover with sand? Just to let the root get established.

[White Worm]

I have also had good luck here http://www.azgardens.com/habitats_discus.php
Also very helpful people. The plant tools, tongs and scissors are great.

You mentioned a grass like front and then I see the background on your tank. Those "lawn" type of plants will need some of the high tech stuff you are going to stay away from. Also, as a rule of thumb - red needs higher light.

Just the sand makes things look pretty good.
Thanks, I really like the sand look.
I noticed that the "lawn" type plants required a little more tech which sucks (like glosso right?) But, there are some small simple plants that grow and make some decent ground cover almost like a grassy look but just taller which wouldnt be too bad. I am prepared for trial and error thats for sure and like I said, I will advance into higher tech later but I want to start slow. I know some of those tanks on that site didnt happen overnight and they surely arent novice setups or novice plant geeks.

[Alight]

Most planted tank people use a fairly coarse gravel to prevent the problems Diss talked about. Even then, mulm can choke the gravel and anerobic conditions can set in if the gravel isn't vacced regularly. Pebbles are too big, and it will be difficult to hold a plant in position with them, as the roots won't cling to them.

A thin layer of sand is OK for an area of the tank with no plants, but you would be better off if the deeper substrate areas where plants are located are either gravel, or some really good substrate like Eco-complete, Soil Master or Flourite.

Of course, if you go high tech, you can have every square inch of the substrate covered with plants so the appearance of the substrate is really a moot point.

[White Worm]

Well, the good thing is if I do decide to go with something later other than sand...I only spent $3 on the whole bag and it could easily be vacced right out with no problem.

[Alight]

I've seen some pretty cool aquascapes where most of it was a thin layer of sand, with some islands of plants in soilmaster or ecocomplete of nice contrasting colors, and some nice driftwood pieces in the sandy areas. This would be sort of good for a Discus tank since it would free up most of the area for good Discus type food grazing.

Al

[White Worm]

Funny you say that, I was thinking just that! I want the sand look but I was gonna go with kind of an island look. Build up the areas that i want plants with a good substrate to contrast against or even with the sand color and the rest would be like a sandy beach trail. Maybe some decor (driftwood) would compliment the design but I want to plan it before I buy it all. I like something now and then I end up changing it later. Gets kinda expensive...Just ask my wife, lol. I will be ordering some plants this weekend. I'm gonna start with the vals, mid tank plants and some small grassy types. I will call them first and ask them what they recommend for the newbie plant guy for rear/middle/foreground, etc and I also could pick up a different substrate for certain areas.

[mickeyG]

Hey Mike -

I had the same idea. Just wanted to try some plants. So I did earlier this week. Added 4 large crinums and 2 med crypts. Ill keep you posted and maybe you do the same. Maybe we can compare notes?

Good luck to your effort. (I have my fingers crossed too that I don't get a bad case of the algaes or unhappy and unhealthy plants!

Michael

[Tiffi]

I got all my plants from aquariumplants.com as well. They've send me very good quality, packed everything very well, and really tried to please me!

As for aquascapes look at this site: http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2005.cgi?&Scale=2&op=showpage&name=view-showcase
There you will find a whole lot of pictures of all tank sizes. They are mostly high tech, but this way you might get an idea as to how you want to arrange everything.

At www.tropica.com and www.plantgeek.net you will find information about every plant, how tal/wide they grow, requirements, growth rate, etc.

What I did was go to www.tropica.com, find plants that suit your light, put some tall, medium, small ones together, and order them at aquariumplants.com. I think some driftwood displays always a great focal point!

Further, you can try to get some Malaysian Trumpet Snails from some forum, some aquatic gardeners association, maybe even at your local fish store (most don't know they have them and will give them to you for free). They are like earthwormes for the aquarium, stay burried in the sand most time, don't harm your plants, but aerate the ground and eat dead/leftover organic matter.

[Alight]

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/33185-kahunas-revenge-56k-warning-6.html

Above is a link to a tank with low light plants, driftwood, arranged in an island with sand around it.

I'd actually think that a group of three smaller islands with some rock stepping stones in between would be very attractive. Amano says to think about three triangles in a tank.

[White Worm]

OK got a couple plants just because I was there and I thought they looked healthy. A few potted lilaeopsis novaezelandiae and 2 bunches of anacharis (sp?) What do you thinnk?

[marilyn1998]

I dont know the first one. Anacharis HATES excel, so be careful. I tried to use just a little Excel when I had anacharis, (I dont use CO2), but even adding it to the right side of the tank, after 3 days the anacharis melted and shed little leaves that looked like scales ALL over the place!!!

Anacharis does put out an antibacterial thingy (very scientific explanation) that helps keep some algaes at bay. Good luck!!!

[Alight]

Anacharis is about the only plant I've had absolutely no luck with in a Discus tank, low or high tech.

Anacharis is actually of many varieties, and this may have been my problem. Much of the anacharis is a cold water variety that simply won't grow at Discus temps. There are some varieties that are more suited to warm water, but I don't know how to ID them for sure.

I don't know about the others you got, since I'm not familiar with them.

So don't be too disapointed, or discouraged at all if it doesn't make it.

[White Worm]

No problem, pretty cheap experiment anyway.

[marilyn1998]

Oh, the pots are Micro Sword!!! You will love that. if you plant outside of the pots, that will eventually carpet your floor! Nice choice.

[White Worm]

Thats what I was hoping for!!!! We will see. If they need ferts or anything, they are out of luck. Hopefully they will live. How long till you notice if the plants are dying? I put them in Sunday evening and they are all still green. i only have the roots buried in about an inch of sand because i didnt want to go crazy in case they dont make it.

[Ed13]

Oh, the pots are Micro Sword!!! You will love that. if you plant outside of the pots, that will eventually carpet your floor! Nice choice.

It's doubtful that it will form a thick carpet with so little light and lack of large amounts of CO2. It is a beautiful plant though, hope it works out for you.
In discus tanks you can't never go wrong with a carpet plant up front, middle of the tank dominated by large pieces of wood, anubias at the base of the wood, ferns on the wood, and the back either with large swords or thin plants like Vallinerias or Cryptocorine balansae or retrospiralis.

This is the basic layout I recommend my clients when they begin with plants because it does not require to many plants(cheaper) leaving you more time to work with the aquascape which is the hardest part. It is also easier to maintain because of the lack of stem plants

Just my two cents.....

[White Worm]

Thanks.. Here it is. I have six in the front of the tank.

16865

[White Worm]

Another

16866

[mickeyG]

Hey Mikscus,

Any luck - are the plants going ok. It has been about 9 days since I added plants and so far they don't look any worse then when I put them in. I am taking that as a good sign!!

Michael

[White Worm]

So far, so good. The anacharis looks to be browning so I dont know but I will give it some more time. The discus sure like to pick at them though. I wasnt even done planting and they were already nipping on the plants. The swords look good still but it has only been a few days. Good to hear yours are doing good. I guess if yours were gonna die, they would have already done it huh?

[traco]

Did you stick a fertilizer root tablet under each of your plants? That will help also.

[White Worm]

I didnt because I didnt want to have to worry about any extra stuff. If they dont make it, I may try that next time. I do like the look of the micro sword though! Hope it lives.

[Ed13]

The ones in the pic seem to still have the emersed growth on them don't panic if some of the leaves die off, if conditions are right they'll grow back pretty soon. If they don't make it and you still want a carpet echinodorus tenellus grows under less light than lilaopsis spec..

[White Worm]

Narrow leaf sword......thanks. I just picked these up because they looked nice and thats what the lfs had, lol. Its coming up on a week and so far they dont look any different than when I put them in. Does this mean they wont die? They may be a little lighter in color but nothing dead looking.

[Ed13]

This IME, is one of the plants that seems to go for long periods of time without much change unless a lot of light and I mean a lot of light + crazy amounts of CO2 and nutrients. On the plus side the plant in the pic seems to be strong and healthy and the fact that it was grown emersed will allowed to adapt better to your parameters

[White Worm]

You can tell it was grown emersed by a picture? How is that? I'm Curious!

[Ed13]

The second pic shows it better. Look at the leaves, when grown submersed they won't be as thick, long, or such a bright green. Plus you won't see stems shooting up from the sides. I'm even going to guess that the plant is from Florida Aquatic Nurseries(won't say why) but it might be fun if next time you can ask the store where you got it:)

BTW, separating a bit would have been a better way to plant it, since it will allow more light to reach more leaves plus it would have given you more pieces to plant creating faster the carpet effect without having to spend more cash. A second effect would have been an even faster time of the plant adapting to life underwater. But I am hesitant to tell to split it off so soon after planting it.

[White Worm]

There were actually two clumps in each pot. I bought three pots and now I have 6 seperate plants like you see. You mean to seperate them even more?

[mickeyG]

08-17-2006 11:59 PMMikscusYou can tell it was grown emersed by a picture? How is that? I'm Curious!

Yesterday 12:13 AMEd13 The second pic shows it better. Look at the leaves, when grown submersed they won't be as thick, long, or such a bright green. Plus you won't see stems shooting up from the sides. I'm even going to guess that the plant is from Florida Aquatic Nurseries(won't say why) but it might be fun if next time you can ask the store where you got it:)


you gotta know that I am even curiouser about how you know which nursery grew it!!!!

Michael

You can see that I don't know how to cut and paste these posts!!

[Ed13]

Ah ha! That's part of the game, wait till he asks the store!
BTW, it's only a guess...

[mickeyG]

ok.....I did lol and that kinda makes my day

thanks

Michael

[White Worm]

Anacharis is about the only plant I've had absolutely no luck with in a Discus tank, low or high tech.

Anacharis is actually of many varieties, and this may have been my problem. Much of the anacharis is a cold water variety that simply won't grow at Discus temps. There are some varieties that are more suited to warm water, but I don't know how to ID them for sure.

I don't know about the others you got, since I'm not familiar with them.

So don't be too disapointed, or discouraged at all if it doesn't make it.
Anacharis is slowly deteriorating:( . I already pulled one bush because it just isnt doing well. I may end up pulling the rest soon. They shed all over the place and are not very eye pleasing anyway. The swords are doing fine though:D

[marilyn1998]

My anacharis hated me too. Those leaves look like fish scales when they die, dont they??

[White Worm]

Exactly...they float everywhere and stick to the intakes....blahhhhh
What a mess! Pulled them all and still cleaning up scales, lol. I will go with Vals next time for the back and get some height. The swords actually look like they are growing???? They surely havent died so thats a good thing! Not bad for the first live plant try.

[marilyn1998]

You will like the vals much better. I have a list of plants that melted then floated all over the tank. Still cleaning up needles and leaves, hehe.

Swords grow like crazy!! So does water sprite. You would do well with those.

Enjoy the world of plants!!! It is fun (and cheap) figuring out which ones to get and WHERE to put them so they do best.

[White Worm]

Thats the best thing about it, cheap experiments, lol. It doesnt cost you much when you choose the wrong plant. A couple bucks and you can try something different. Plus, live plants just look better than fake or silk.

[pcsb23]

Hi Mike, been watching this thread, not so sure about the geeks bit but hey, I'll give on that :)

So given your quote

Thats the best thing about it, cheap experiments, lol. It doesnt cost you much when you choose the wrong plant. A couple bucks and you can try something different.

Maybe you should try experimenting on these (if you can get them;))
http://www.aquarium-gardening.com/product.php?flora_id=155

at the current exchange rate thats about $284 :D

btw, welcome to the dark (green) side, the force is strong!

Take care and keep with it!

[White Worm]

Thanks Paul...The geek thing was term of endearment, not meant to be rude...I'm sure you knew that, lol :D :D
I'm sure there are some pretty expensive plants out there but i will stick to the $5 range until I know that I can keep something alive. I may expand when I get the hang of it.....kinda like discus

[pcsb23]

Thanks Paul...The geek thing was term of endearment, not meant to be rude...I'm sure you knew that, lol :D :D

yup sure did ;)



I'm sure there are some pretty expensive plants out there but i will stick to the $5 range until I know that I can keep something alive. I may expand when I get the hang of it.....kinda like discus
I'll need to win the lottery before I get this one, damn nice though...

[wolfbane]

Holy Cow Paul!!! That has to be the most expensive plant I have seen. I nearly passed out when I looked at the link! I will stick to my hygro and "common" crypts, thankyou!! It sure is pretty though.