Angel Fish experts - Help needed

[pcsb23]

I have some F1 scalare angels and I need help to determine the sex of them. I have 6 in total, looks like at least 4 have paired off, but how do you tell which is which if you have never seen them lay eggs??

Any help is appreciated.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm fairly new to Angels, but IME the females are slightly smaller and more elegant looking. The males have a somewhat of a cichlid hump which to me makes them appear a bit course. HTH.

[pcsb23]

I'm fairly new to Angels, but IME the females are slightly smaller and more elegant looking. The males have a somewhat of a cichlid hump which to me makes them appear a bit course. HTH.

I had been told that by someone, didn't know if it was right, soooo in the pics the first one is male? and the second female?

What happens if there is no hump?? is the hump always there? Sorry if these are dumb Q's but...

[Tony_S]

Hey Paul

yes, definately male in the first, female in the second.

Tony

[LizStreithorst]

I ain't no expert but I agree with Beth.

[pcsb23]

Thanks, Beth, Tony & Liz.

[Paul Lucas]

What happens if there is no hump?? is the hump always there? tuch, tuch - humps on males - are there humps on discus!!??

Paul, an old guy at Arundel Aquatics, and he picked me many pairs long ago, said look at them head on - female has slightly rounded abdomen and 'wider ventrals' and the male is, just like in the human race, more slender lol!!! I'm sure there was more to it than that but give it a go - if they're mature it'll work as it does in discus

[pcsb23]

tuch, tuch - humps on males - are there humps on discus!!??

Not on good ones :)


Paul, an old guy at Arundel Aquatics, and he picked me many pairs long ago, said look at them head on - female has slightly rounded abdomen and 'wider ventrals' and the male is, just like in the human race, more slender lol!!! I'm sure there was more to it than that but give it a go - if they're mature it'll work as it does in discus
I shall give it a go!

[traco]

I've heard the story about the males have a hump, females no.

I've got a question for you, Paul. What is the difference between scalares and the angelfish we usually see in the pet shops? Are they all scalares and then get broken down into marbles, golds, blacks, etc...?

[pcsb23]

I honestly don't know, like discus there are but few true wild strains of angels, I could be wrong but broadly scalare and altum. Through inter breeding/mutation the various domestic starins have developed, much like pigeon bloods etc..

What I really like about these fish is their vigour, they are really strong fish and look "right" if that makes sense.

There are people on here much better qualified to answer your question than me, like Al (brew), Ryan(Smith) and Dave (raglanroad), and not forgetting Beth! Maybe they will jump in.

[kdazzel]

I think they both look like males.

My breeding angels the female is smaller with way longer fins on the top and bottom the male is bigger bodied but shorter fins on top and bottom,

you'll know for sure when you see the breeding tubes

kdazzel

[Ryan]

Barb, "scalare" is the species name. There are two definite forms of angels: Pterophyllum scalare and Pterophyllum altum. All domestic strains of angelfish are most likely scalare. There is at least one other species of angelfish -- most refer to it as Pterophyllum leopoldi, but there are also old texts that mention Pterophyllum dumerilii and Pterophyllum emeiki. Supposedly the last two are incorrect and do not exist. See, discus aren't the only fish that are confusing :)

Altums are imported a lot and sought after by angel hobbyists, but they are similar to heckels in the sense that they are nearly impossible to breed in captivity. Some have claimed to succeed, but there's been little proof offered.

So all tank-bred varieties of angels (marbles, golds, leopards, halfblacks, smokeys, etc.) were from original silver scalares like Paul's. They were basically genetic mutations that were isolated and bred to develop new forms, much the way discus are "created".

Now, as for the pictures... yes, I agree that the male is the first fish. However, it should be noted that sometimes female angelfish will develop that "hump" and sometimes females will be large and dominant, leading folks to believe they are males. So it's not always 100% accurate. The fish do not always develop a hump. I've had more males without a hump than with one.

If you have "pairs," look at them from the front. The females will have a rounder, more plump abdomen and the males will be thinner. Remember -- females will pair together. So if you haven't seen viable eggs or live fry yet, there's always the possibility that you have same-sex pairs.

Ryan

[Ryan]

I think they both look like males.

My breeding angels the female is smaller with way longer fins on the top and bottom the male is bigger bodied but shorter fins on top and bottom,

you'll know for sure when you see the breeding tubes

kdazzel

The finnage is really not a good thing to go by, unfortunately. Fin length varies from fish to fish and is one of the least uniform things about angels. Especially now with the veil and superveil genetics being hidden in most domestic angels. You could have standard-finned angels that spawn veil fry with long fins. So it's definitely not a factor in determining sex.

The tube thing, on the other hand, is probably the most reliable way I've found. As in discus, the females have a blunt, thick breeding tube while the males have a thin, pointed one. The female's tube appears several days before spawning -- if you see the male's tube, spawning's probably going to happen within the next day.

In Paul's pictures you can see the tip of the breeding tube on the female. I've found that with mature spawning angels, the female's tube rarely retracts completely -- the tip is almost always visible. Another thing to look for when sexing adult angels...

Ryan

[Ed13]

Barb, "scalare" is the species name. There are two definite forms of angels: Pterophyllum scalare and Pterophyllum altum. All domestic strains of angelfish are most likely scalare. There is at least one other species of angelfish -- most refer to it as Pterophyllum leopoldi, but there are also old texts that mention Pterophyllum dumerilii and Pterophyllum emeiki. Supposedly the last two are incorrect and do not exist. See, discus aren't the only fish that are confusing :)



:confused: Don't know, leopoldis do look significantly different. What about the red spotted peruvians(yes angels not discus)
There is also a new school of thought that views Orinoco altums as the true altum and leaves other "altums" as maybe another species or even as a scalare cross altum. I guess there is much to be studied still:confused:
but, I'm not a biologist nor a angel fan so.....

[Ryan]

Yes, P. leopoldi are significantly different. They have a more oblong shape and their markings are different.

Then you have the argument that "Peruvian" altums are just a form of scalare, while some think they're a totally separate species. So, as with discus, the wilds are a mess and there's still a lot of shifting back and forth about the classification of wild angels.

There's also a theory that P. scalare is one form, but that several other very similar forms exist, and that they interbreed readily in the wild and are often imported all under the name P. scalare... so the possibility exists that domestic strains are actually a mix of several similar types.

Confusing, eh?

[Ed13]

Confusing, eh?

VERY MUCH, so would you say that sometimes a location is the only way to put a name under them?

I say we go down to amazonia, bring along a bunch of buckets and nets and start working;) , but only after we catch some discus OK

[poconogal]

I'm fairly new to Angels, but IME the females are slightly smaller and more elegant looking. The males have a somewhat of a cichlid hump which to me makes them appear a bit course. HTH.
Paul, some male angels do have a bit of a hump, but many times they do not. I have had breeding pairs of Silver angels where the male had no hump, and the female was either the same size or larger than the male, even though they were the same size when I got them as tiny dime-sized babies. I've also had breeders of Gold Pearlscale Angels, where the male definitely had a hump and the female, as Liz said, was more elegant -- she was more feminine looking. Of course, the sure way to tell, 100%, is by the breeding tubes.

I agree with others who said pic on the left is a male and the right, female.

[poconogal]

The finnage is really not a good thing to go by, unfortunately. Fin length varies from fish to fish and is one of the least uniform things about angels. Especially now with the veil and superveil genetics being hidden in most domestic angels. You could have standard-finned angels that spawn veil fry with long fins. So it's definitely not a factor in determining sex.

Ryan
That's true, finnage is not a factor in determining sex of angels. Both male and female of my Silver breeders were superveils, as well as both of a pair of Gold Pearscale that I had. I only have one Angel now, a beautiful little Koi Angel, that was dime-sized at purchase a few months ago and is now about a 1/2 dollar size. But he/she? (the jury's still out) is a superveil combtail, the fins are humongous -- he/she has a caudal fin of approx. 4 inches in length already.

[pcsb23]

Yes, P. leopoldi are significantly different. They have a more oblong shape and their markings are different.

Then you have the argument that "Peruvian" altums are just a form of scalare, while some think they're a totally separate species. So, as with discus, the wilds are a mess and there's still a lot of shifting back and forth about the classification of wild angels.

There's also a theory that P. scalare is one form, but that several other very similar forms exist, and that they interbreed readily in the wild and are often imported all under the name P. scalare... so the possibility exists that domestic strains are actually a mix of several similar types.

Confusing, eh?

And it really does not take a lot to confuse me either ;)

Really useful information Ryan many thanks.

[pcsb23]

Thanks everyone, that is plenty of food for thought, and some good tips on how to sex them. Hopefully I will have more success sexing angels than discus :)

[traco]

Ryan, thanks for clarifying what scalares are. I heard someone say they have scalares F1's. I know F1 is first generation but got the impression that these ones the person had are different than your average golds, marbles, etc... I thought there were scalares, altums, leopoldis and then you go to the golds, marbles, ....?

I asked as I was thinking of getting another 2 angels for my tank and thought these sounded pretty cool.

[pcsb23]

My scalares are F1's my understanding is that they are first generation from wild parents. I am told they were bred from wilds, and have no reason to disbelieve them.

Well the two I pictured earlier are now safely in a tank of their own, so we'll see where this leads!



I asked as I was thinking of getting another 2 angels for my tank and thought these sounded pretty cool.

Barb its a shame I'm not nearer, I have 3 pairs now (I think...) but I only really want 1 or 2 pairs, I'd even have given you the choice....

[Ryan]

Usually if someone specifically calls them scalares, they are the "silver" variety which is found in the wild. Normally you'd refer to them as scalares if they were wilds, or came from wild parents.

Silvers, golds, marbles, smokeys, leopards, pearlscales, albinos, you name it... they're all P. scalare and might be labeled as such.

I personally love the silvers. Paul's are very nice, they'd be excellent if they were a little larger. Good luck finding really big monster angels anymore. They're out there, but harder to find nowadays. Angels seem to get smaller and smaller every year. People breeding too early, not spreading out the genetics enough, breeding brother to sister, etc.

[raglanroad]

People make referencto "wild type" in breeding programs, though they are necessarily wild-caught fish. they could be, or they could be domestic "wild type'.

The filial generations ( f-numbers) correctly refers to the progeny of your experiment or breeding program, whereas the idea that it refers to generations from wild is terminology from the African cichlid bunch, I think, as they want wilds or close to wilds, not intending to breed sports or freaks 9or do much line-breeding, etc. so the number really needs to be thought of in the context of the seller's program, not in necessarily in generations from wild.

The different names have been confused by the various authors over the years.
Currently recognized are altum, scalare, and leopoldi.
Scalare and leopoldi wilds are well documented breeders.
Altum has been documented also, but rarely, and there is debate as per Heiko's definition of altum, though nobody else seems eager to take that position.
Heiko also claims to have discovered what he believes is a new unrecorded species of angel.
Izeni Farias is now collecting to do a determining DNA study on the 3 recognized species of angels, much as she did the work that defined the current knowledge of discus species which Heiko interpreted in his latest book.
Dave

[traco]

My scalares are F1's my understanding is that they are first generation from wild parents. I am told they were bred from wilds, and have no reason to disbelieve them.

Well the two I pictured earlier are now safely in a tank of their own, so we'll see where this leads!



Barb its a shame I'm not nearer, I have 3 pairs now (I think...) but I only really want 1 or 2 pairs, I'd even have given you the choice....


Plane and road trip for Paul.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/320v.gif
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18_1_31.gif

[JeffreyRichard]

Having bred thousands of angels over 15 years, I would tell you it's not too difficult to sex angelfish, once you know what to look for. The best way to do this is observe several "real" pairs, and hopefully catch them spawning.

OK, but that's not helping you at this moment. What I look for when I pair up angels ... these are only GENERAL rules

1) Mature females generally have fuller lower abdomins ... they are rounder (eggs)
2) Females will show a bigger (wider) tube particularly after a water change ... male tubes are much smaller
3) Mature males have a more "bull-like" appearance ... ventrals seem more puffed out, heads MAY show a dome, tend to be more aggressive in a school (although if a female has layed eggs, she'll mostlikely be the aggressor)
4) A less reliable means is the angel of the anal fin to the abdomin ... males TEND to have a more gradual slope (45 degrees) while females TEND to have a 90 degree angel

[pcsb23]

Jeff, (and others) appreciate your tips, and going by them I am guessing that in these pics (different "pair") the first is female, due to shape and tube, and the second is male, again being slimmer and the tube slimmer.

Apologies for the poor pics, i am tired and they are camera shy.

Many thanks again.

[GrillMaster]

Paul, am subscribed to this thread for sure!!

I just picked up 6 wilds from brew...They settled in nice, just wanna see a couple pair up. Lots of info on what ta look for! I have only had em for a few days though. Its gonna be awhile.