oxygen Discusssion

[LoJack]

Hey everyone,

My discus are in a planted tank and I just brought them home a few days ago. The tank is fully cycled, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, Ph 7, C02 (25ppm)

Both of my discus are not moving at all, fins clamped, and gasping ... I just got home and seen them this way. I shut my C02 off, and added an airstone immediately.

Please help, I don't know what to do, what could it be. I tested my water immediately and those are the params I got ... I don't know what it could be

I've kept fish for years ... and never encountered this problem. The tank has many other fish in it, and only the discus are showing this behavior

[scolley]

LoJack - 25ppm is not a lot. Certainly not too much. I don't know discus well, but I'm comfortable with fish in planted tanks, and that's not too much.

But it could be too much if it were cranked up to that level quickly. Do you run your CO2 24x7? And if not, do you know how fast the count rose to 25 ppm?

And how do you know your CO2 was 25 ppm? Lotta debate on the accuracy of correlating pH with KH. But knowing your KH would be great.

Good luck.

[GrillMaster]

Sounds like they are a lil stressed in the tank, but they have only been in there a few days. The N03 is a lil high...Are you dosing it? If you are stop. Do a 60% WC, and it should be back to 2 ppm where it should be. I would imagine the tank they came from didn't have N03 that high....

How big is the tank? Can we get a pic of it? You mentioned 2 discus...Not exactly a school of em. No buddies to get them thru the tough times. Obviously C02 is not the problem at 25 ppm, an the rest of the fish are doin good.

Whats the temp?

I really dont think the c02 has anything to do with this issue.

[scolley]

Let me qualify that... it's not a lot in a healthy planted tank where the plants are producing a lot of oxygen. That said...

You can outgass that CO2 by stirring up the surface of the water. I've done some bone-headed things with CO2 (lot's, lot's higher than 25 ppm!) and was able to make a dramatic difference quickly - both in reducing CO2 content and raising O2 content - but just getting a pot with a handle and scooping up 100-200 pot fulls of water and pouring it back into the tank - agitating the surface as much as possible as you do so. It works.


More...
Bastalker ninja posted on me... didn't see that before I posted this. Water change as he mentioned, if you can do it, is even better. But 25ppm CAN be too high if you went from 0-5ppm to 25 rapidly by blasting it in, and would be particularly bad if you had a low O2 count at the same time. But right now, it looks like we need more info.

[White Worm]

I wouldnt do a large wc unless you age your water. Tap water trapped in pipes is not high in oxygen content. Lots of surface agitation is the key.

[scolley]

I gotta go to bed. But just in case, a few last contributions here...

1) Here's a chart you can use (if you weren't using something like it already), that you can find your CO2 count if you know your KH too.

2) Sorry Mikscus, I gotta disagree about the surface agitation. Manual, or even assisted with something splashy like a well positioned HOT Magnum does help. It's what I originally suggested. But I know from experience that it does not change the CO2 as quickly as a 50% water change does. And regardless of the O2 in your pipes, if you hold a fill hose over the tank (as opposed to under the surface) and do a nice splashy fill, you can get a heck of a lot of O2 into a tank quickly as a part of your water change as well.

Good luck.

[White Worm]

I think we do agree here. Splashing water from any source would be the key which could come from wc or 100-200 pots :D You are agitating the surface with both procedures. Splashing, return water, surface agitation is what adds oxygen and gases off C02. A 50% may not be bad but I was talking about anything larger than a 50%. We just dont know the water source yet.

Do you use conditioner? Age your water? Temp? Just alot of missing info to make an accurate conclusion.

[LoJack]

Yes I use prime, I don't age my water, the temperature is 82

I stopped the C02 ... and added an airstone ... they are off the bottom which is great, but they still look ridiculously unhappy. Now although the C02 wasn't too high, it did get that way rather quickly ... could that be it?

[White Worm]

2 discus will be stressed. They are in new surroundings and stress in small numbers. Lots of water surface movement / airstones if you have seen improvement since you added the airstone. If this is the problem, you should see improvement rather quickly as the oxygen level comes up. Keep the tank lights off. Do you have a qt or hospital tank?

[hexed]

LoJack,
I am a little confused? First when and where did you get the discus? Why did you take them and put them into your planted tank without QT them first? I would suggest that you put them into a hospital (QT) tank for at least a month. Just because they look healthy in the tank you seen them in does not mean they are healthy at all. A lot can happen from the store to the planted tank or from the seller's house to yours - ALWAYS QT your fish before adding them to an established tank whether it is planted or not. How big are these guys? If they are small and you want to grow them out, use a bare bottom tank and feed the heck out of them and do daily water changes of 50%. It is going to ruin your nicely planted tank letting the non eaten food to just sit there until you do a water change. Are they facing the back or sides of your tank? You said they are not moving, fins clamped and heavy breathing, are they very dark or almost black in color? are they eating? What color is their poopy?

I am going to be away for a week and hopefully Paul or another moderator can continue this for me.

I do suggest that you remove those discus from your planted tank and QT them in a bare bottom (BB) tank with 50% water changes and watch them, sounds like they might be getting hex :( It is also much easier to treat for illness in the QT then it is in a planted tank. I have nothing against planted tanks as I have a few myself, just against placing non QT fish into one :(
Frank

[White Worm]

Do you have a qt or hospital tank?

I agree with frank....hence my last question. i was just being a little more indirect. :)
Temp is a little low also, put em in a bb qt tank and up the temp to 86-88.

[pcsb23]

If I am reading this correctly these 2 discus were added to an establishe planted tank without quarantining them? Well its not ideal, but we've all done it at some time.

Now that they are in the tank it may be a moot point moving them into qt now. If they are to cath anything from the other fish and vice versa the damage is most likely already done. Indeed moving them again will only add to the stress. The reaction described could be attributed to illness or stress (or both). I would suggest before moving the fsh about we try and determine if it is stress or illness. If its illness move them to treat in a qt, the risk is necessary, if its just stress I would suggest managing it in tank.

It is probable that the discsu came from tanks that were low to very low in CO2 and if the CO2 level rose quickly (as inferred by your comments) then this along with their recent move will cause this reaction.

Partial w/c and a reduction for now in CO2 will resolve this in a day or two, they may be skittish for a week or so anyway. I would keep the CO2 levels down, even off, for the next week 10 days, do partial w/c every day of 25 to 33%, and then restart the CO2, but do it gradually. Having kept discus in planted tanks for some years this is the best method of acclimating them, once acclimated they are normally fine.

It is very important to monitor their health during this time, if they are off their food (which I suspect they will be) then expect to see stringy white feces, if they remain dark, go to the back of the tank or a corner and take a head down attitude, then it will be time to pull them into a qt/hospital tank for treatment. They may tke the above now and for a day, give it 2 or 3 das before makng the assessment. However if they develop white on their slime coat, qt them straight away.

82f is the bottom end of temps for dicsus but is ok(ish), aim for 84f its good for the discus and most plants will do fine at that temp too. I run my planted tanks at this temp.

brtw I moved it to the disease section, should get more attention here.

hth,

[lhforbes12]

I am frankly a bit amazed at most of these responces. Your problem is a simple one. You do NOT have a CO2 problem you have a lack of O2 problem. Simply get the water surface moving and your problem will disappear. Oftentimes folks want to preserve as much CO2 as possible by keeping their water surface still, this is just about the worst mistake you can make. It is ALWAYS important to have gas exchange in your tanks, this is most easily done by creating movement of your water surface. Most people assume that adding an airstone is driving CO2 out, what it is really doing is creating surface movement and forcing O2 in. CO2 does NOT displace O2 in the water column, you can have saturated CO2 and saturated O2 in the same aquarium at the same time. The simple proof of this is pearling, pearling occurs because the water is saturated with O2 so the O2 from the plants can no longer be taken up easily by the water, so you get air bubbles rising to the surface. Another thing to note is that discus need LOTS of O2, which is exacerbated by the water being very warm (the warmer the water the less O2 it can hold). ALWAYS have surface movement in your tanks.

[pcsb23]

Putting a discus from a normal CO2 (as in atmospheric) to injected tank can and does stress them, nothing to do with O2. When I move discus into my planted tank they stress for a day or 2 then settle down nicely.

[scolley]

The simple proof of this is pearling, pearling occurs because the water is saturated with O2 so the O2 from the plants can no longer be taken up easily by the water, so you get air bubbles rising to the surface.
Right.



Another thing to note is that discus need LOTS of O2, which is exacerbated by the water being very warm (the warmer the water the less O2 it can hold). ALWAYS have surface movement in your tanks.
Which is why I believe this last statement is not. IF your plants are pearling, AND IF your point about surface movement is that it is required because of its facilitation of gas exchange, THEN there is no need for surface movement of of any significant amount. When your plants are pearling, I think you've already got all the O2 you are gonna easily get in that tank.

[lhforbes12]

Steve,
Except that plants only produce O2 during times of light, they use O2 24/7

[scolley]

I suppose it gets back to the question of what was meant by "ALWAYS have surface movement in your tanks."

If that is "always", as in "all tanks should be able to provide", then there could be merit to that. Though I personally know that agitation is not necessarily required for healthy fish in a planted tank, discus O2 requirments could be high enough that they are an exception. I wouldn't know. I'm a discus newb.

But if that was "ALWAYS", as in "all hours of the day", then that is not true. Not if you've got nice pearling plants. Night time - maybe for discus. But not during pearling.

I don't mean to be contentious. But I think the point is worth a little clarity. People do not need to have surface agitation all the times in a healthy planted tank.

[White Worm]

You can outgass that CO2 by stirring up the surface of the water. I've done some bone-headed things with CO2 (lot's, lot's higher than 25 ppm!) and was able to make a dramatic difference quickly - both in reducing CO2 content and raising O2 content - but just getting a pot with a handle and scooping up 100-200 pot fulls of water and pouring it back into the tank - agitating the surface as much as possible as you do so. It works.





Manual, or even assisted with something splashy like a well positioned HOT Magnum does help.... if you hold a fill hose over the tank (as opposed to under the surface) and do a nice splashy fill, you can get a heck of a lot of O2 into a tank quickly as a part of your water change as well.

.
These suggestions are all surface movement/agitation.
Then.......



there is no need for surface movement of of any significant amount.

??????? there are probably more here that dont have planted tanks or enough plants to make a difference. If you dont move the water surface in a tank without plants, you suffocate the fish. Fish breathe air not water.

[pcsb23]

One point worth mentioning here is that if a tank is thought to be O2 deficient a very quick way of upping the O2 is to add some hydrogen peroxide. Do it in small doses and observe the fish (or plants, if the water becomes O2 saturated any O2 the plants produce will bubble off them or pearl as its csalled). Start with a teaspooon (5ml) of 3% h2o2 per 10 gallons of water.

Discus require no more or less O2 than most aquarium fish, they use more simply because on the whole they are bigger than most other fish kept in aquariums.

Btw I don't believe the issues that LoJack have are O2 deficiencies, more to do with a sudden transfer of discus from CO2 normal to CO2 relatively high, thus stressing an already stresed fish.

[lhforbes12]

OK, this seems to be getting a little contentious and that is my fault because of my earlier post. I apollogize for that, I should have stated what I did much more kindly.
Lack of O2 show very different symptoms than CO2 poisoning. Lack of O2 will have your fish gasping at the surface for air. However too much CO2 will tend to do the opposite, your fish will be languishing on the bottom of the tank.
This happens because O2 and CO2 are not mutually exclusive of each other. Put another way your water can have saturated O2 and saturated CO2 at the same time. What happens in CO2 poisoning is the fish is breathing in O2 and CO2 at the same time, over time the CO2 displaces the O2 in it's system and causes the fish to become weak. It doesn't "think" it needs O2 because it is getting O2, just no longer enough.

[scolley]

These suggestions are all surface movement/agitation.
Then.......


??????? there are probably more here that dont have planted tanks or enough plants to make a difference. If you dont move the water surface in a tank without plants, you suffocate the fish. Fish breathe air not water.

Read the thread. The first comments were indeed about surface agitation. But it was clearly direction to fix a temporary problem - not a suggestion related to a steady state condition. I know that is quite clear in the thread.

And also, your second comment is out of context. You included a single snipet of my statement that was in fact very well qualified. If you go back and read it, you will see that it clearly only applies to planted tanks where the plants are pearling.

This is a thread about a problem in a planted tank. Must all comments here, even when specifically about planted tanks (with discus) apply equally to ALL tanks with discus? If so, there's gonna be a lot of ignorance and misunderstanding being spread around here about discus care in a planted tank. Everything that holds for one is not going to be true for the other.

And as to the quantity of plants, again, read the thread. My comments were clearly qualified as saying "if your plants are pearling". That holds true. Even if you have 1 plant. If it is pearling you are O2 saturated, or close enough for it not to matter. Plant quantity at that point is irrelevant.

lhforbes12 - Your last post is well put. Thanks. And nothing but agreement here.

[brewmaster15]

I have copied this message to this section for further discussion along technical lines.. The original thread in the disease section went way off course.

-al

[pcsb23]

I stopped the C02 ... and added an airstone ... they are off the bottom which is great, but they still look ridiculously unhappy. Now although the C02 wasn't too high, it did get that way rather quickly ... could that be it?

Actually I missed a trick here, and should have asked the question if they were on the bottom or at the top. Lying or being on the bottom of the tank is one of the key indicators to an adverse reaction to CO2 and not an O2 deficiency. This is sometimes referred to as CO2 shock, and depending on the amount of CO2 can be fatal, although it shouldn't be in this case.

I'll post this in both threads as I think its relevant to both...

[GrillMaster]

I brought home a dozen congo tetras, an a dozen black neons a couple of weeks ago. They came from a non injected C02 tank. After a 30 minute acclimation, I tossed em in the tank which in fact was C02 saturated since i was injecting it in the tank. All the fish immediately started gasping at the surface indicating that 02 was lacking. I didn't add an air stone, or turn the C02 down, but simply watched them closely. Two days later they were just fine. They acclimated themselves to the C02 levels in the tank.

I don't have very heavy surface movement in my tank, since heavy surface movement will in turn out gas the C02 making it counter productive for the plants. I have introduced alot of fish into my C02 saturated tank with the same results. Gasping, but settling right in.

Fish will do just fine in a C02 saturated tank. Like said before, if fish come from a non C02 tank to a C02 saturated tank, they will be a lil stressed, but will get over it.

Planted tank enthusiasts like to keep around 5-10 ppm N03 in the tanks to feed the plants. Pet stores for the most part dont introduce N03 to their tanks, just merely tap water everyday. Probably not alot of Nitrate in the tanks. Probably not alot of phosphates either. So taking a couple of discus from an lfs, an dumping them into a C02 saturated, high N03, an P04 tank might just stress them out a bit for a few days.

If I buy discus from anyone, I will want to know exactly what all these levels are. Whats the ph, N03, P04, temp, GH, an KH measurements in their tanks, an do my best to duplicate the same in my quarantine tank. Then I will gradually induce all the parameters into my quarantine tank to match the show tank in which they will ultimately be placed.

The less stress on any fish will allow alot more success of the fish's survival.:D