General discussion on the Heckel's Natural History

[tatore]

When I read "heckel" i read "life"...it's the total interest taking me all my free time.
Different language (I'm italian) inhibites me to be clear...
However, I have at home about 18 heckels, in an aquarium, at least totally dedicated to their life and study.
In other tanks I breed Green, alenquer (just one) and blu discus, and in another tank just fry from alenquerXsemi-royal, about 80 small discus.

Ok, the focus is "heckel".
By myself I've turned back and separated them just becouse I've observed how the most important game in heckel's life is played by pH, soft water, wood (peaty), peat, black water, low light, and feeding...a beat different (I assume totally) from other discus.

I've seen spawning them several times, but space and time don't allow me to follow the fry, and it becomes impossible to grow up fry in a tank with 16 other discus...but it isn't impossible.

Somewhere, here in simplydiscus I've posted in the past some spawning picture of a heckel while fecunding eggs..don't know where.

Unsuccesfull!!! I didn't like for 1st alenquerXheckel, and 2nd pH too low was becoming fatal for alenquer....so I broke the pair.

From the low of my experience I say that heckels aren't easy, but I find more difficult other fishes, requiring continous treatment against lots of deseases, while heckel is able to raise his life with a good quality of water and a low pH.

Several times I had for free heckel waiting for death from my favourite importer, and now I'm sure they are the best I have, how? Respecting a beat what goes on in nature.
Never less than 10 heckels in a tank, never temperature over 28°C, never pH over 5,6, never fresh water not-prefiltered on peat, never lots of changes in the tank, never chemical additions, only peat, few light, floating plants, and peace around tank.

I treat them really in a total different way, they can't live with other discus, and other tetras not always resist in a low pH, so any choice you make only the time and experience may suggest you if it is ok or not.

Water has to be black, they are scared from light (in wild the full moon too is an enemy for them), and the season make different water parameters and foods.

So I change, and for several months I don't change so much water, I don't care of No3, PO4, but I care for foods, that during this period has to be poor, may be some spiruline flake, some frozen krill, some dry food, and few times during the day (they have to need and look for food).

If water level goes down...that's better, I just care to watch the filter pump, has not to remain dry, and nothing else.

Afterward fresh r/o water, changes, lower temperature, 12 hours of light and proteinic live food (shrimps and grindal (aenchitreus albidus)), and you see fishes clening something, fighting, showing best colours and so on.

Heckel, as Larry said (Larry, it's a pleasure to read your posts, I'm a fan of you), isn't coloured, and who has heckels may understand that they show the best coluours in 2 cases: for spawning, and if there's an alpha individual.

In other cases, they remain "prune", even defending their piece of aquarium: in wild it's the best way to to camouflage themselves from predators.

Another and last observation (that Larry did): they could be ready to spawn after 2,5 years old, not before.

that's why I suggest always to take small individuals, not adults.
It's more difficult to convince an adult that his life will finish in our tanks, better to start with small baby heckels, and satisfactions in long time will arrive.


I've spoken about parameters...and feeding heckels.
Let speak about heckel wild habitat:
for 6 months they do not have particular foods to find, they just take what they find on ground, like some kind of algae, (not usually but)sometime a sort of shrimps with a slim scheleton (esoscheletro in italian)poor of chitin, and detritus, this last for more than 50% of their diet. Water is low, in low water period, temperature (during all the year however) different from day to night, from ground to surface (top), and...after 6 months rainy season: What does it change?
Everything!
Fruits, insects larvae, water parameters (nobody may assume if pH becomes lower or lightly higher)different, softer, diluited by rain, lots of foods and so on...
Here's the miracle: some hormonal recall bring them to spawn, and usually succesfull spawns are 3 or 4 at least, no more.
Let analyse what does it changes, and difference between wild habitat and our tanks.

We use to feed them all the time with proteinic foods, all the year, always same water level, same pH, same temperature, nothing changes, nothing for a hormonal recall to spawn!

When I speak about a low pH, this last parameter is useful (or necessary) for wilds (and S. discus especially)to defend themselves from external attacks, to re-create the protective mucus fast, for bacteria (poor however in acid water) and fungus, but I'm sure (anyway not scientifically), that parameter changes are the fondamental ingredient to let them feel like in wild, different water level higher and lower), differend foods during seasons, and weather too...during winter it's easier to assist to a spawinig.

Heckel is the ancestral discus, is the one that isn't easy to hold just because their adaptability needs lot of time, and breeding even more low.
And even more low if we start with adults subjects.

[brewmaster15]

Hello Salvo,
You raised some interesting and valid points just now.. I have thought on the same lines when I think about the amazon conditions..

In Botany theres a train of thought that if you want a plant to flower... stress it the point of death... then bring it back to life.... you do this by a period of dry conditions or dormancy...which simulate a seasonal change..... give it water and nutrients following the dry spell and many plants will put forth flowers... Its done all the time in green houses and hobbys...

It makes good sense here as a possible factor.... There are seasonal variations in the availibility of food as you say... and that may be one reason why heckels do not spawn in captivity well... Theres no trigger caused by the poor food availibility, then rich abundance and diversity
of food.

Another possible difference... dissolved oxygen... during the dry spells... the water levels drop, the frequency and volume of water into the Amazon decreases and the dissolved oxygen may drastically decrease as well.. I have noted my wilds are particularly adapted to low oxygen water as opposed to domestics..... that may mean something..
When the rains come... The water may be enriched with oxygen.



JMO,
al

[tatore]

Sure!!
Forgot this point too: O2:(
In a habitat without plants and without water flow....where's the high concentation of oxygen? :confused: :confused:
And light? Are we sure that they love 17.000 kelvin of light???
Could it be more logical to use only the room-light and nothing on surface of tank (or just floating plant to cover part of fluorescent light)?

Have you never seen a wild discus immediately after catching fat??? I didn't.
But I use to see people that I've visited for articles and so on breeding green with so many foods, and the poor fishes became so fat....no words, but for human eyes they look healthy... :rolleyes:

[brewmaster15]

There is another factor that I have wondered on.

During the dry seasons rivers like the Rio Negro are still relatively large bodies of water with many tributaries flowing in.. but in the rainy season it floods its bank by as much 20 miles and does so for a hundreds of miles. Many tributaries must temporarily cease to exist when this happen.. and what you in effect have is a slow moving sheet of water with a tremendous area...

Thats got to open up a huge amount of foods as we discussed but it also creates some puzzles.. For instance How Do heckels (and other wilds) find each over such a wide dispersal area? We can tell the pH and water parameters of the negro proper...but what micro-parameters are created by the flooded area around the negro?

-al

[tatore]

Good reflections, and I mean colours and patterns make difference in wilds, as we do with different languages and specific physical peculiarities.
A good friend of mine, ichthyologist and bewitched by heckel coming back from Amazon area told me that nothing remains the same, from day to night, from a small pond on left to a bigger pond on right. What that water contains, or where is stocked water in that area.

It's difficult sometime think about the original discus habitats and then, turn back with the mind and think to see them spawning, without first take care of all the other needs-

I hope this topic will become big, starting with all experiences of us, succesful and not, pictures, opinions and reflections.

[tatore]

...just to show some picture..
Unfortunately peat colour hides colours and sharpness..

[brewmaster15]

Bellissimo!!!:)

[Apistomaster]

These factors discussed above are along the very same lines of thinking about the problems associated with breeding Altum angels.
Simulating a period of benign neglect followed by increased freshets of acidic RO water, increase in varity and quality of foods in the winter ( SA rainey season) is a very reasonable proposition to me. Unchanging monotonous feeding and water parameters may work fine for domestics but wild discus are still keeping to their internal instictual calendar and environmental expectations. I believe that Heckel are especially well adapted to low light levels because the Rio Negro has such dark water and where discus are found heavy growth of floating plants. I have considered that that may be why they seem more socialable and tolerant of each other because they may be takening advantage of other senses than sight compared to the other wild discus with big eyes. Some things subtle are involved with maintainng connections within their groups.
Al,
I may have accidentally erased some of my photos so I'll get busy taking some new ones, I am so inept when it comes to using my computer. I did learn what not to click on the next time. I'll send them to you if you PM me the address you want me to send them to.
Tratore,
Your Heckels are much larger than mine and have that full grown adult thickness. They are gorgeous examples of prime Heckels.
These are exactly the kinds of discussions we need to have.Everyone please jump in if you have some ideas.
Larry

[tatore]

I brought lots of them when they were really small...and nobody would buy them.
Except some of them a beat bigger...(like the clear one that you see somewhere).
Feeding or understanding what's better for them was easier, and the things that I always avoided are beef heart and at least tubifex too (I need to speak about this after a meeting I'll have on 18th feb in Rome, for "whirling disease")...
Reading you and Al is fantastic and magic, cause the only person that helped me until now, to breed better heckel was (and is ) Heiko Bleher, first with his book, then meeting him and by phone many times.
I'll speak about this thread and I hope he'll find the time to answer with few words.
I had a present from Heiko for my 40th birthday two days ago, a VHS "A life for discus", an interview with Dr. Eduard Schmidt-Focke showing his amazing pairs, discus, and I guess...we have to take a step back, thinking about this man, that bred everything, heckels, green, brown, blue, bettas...with unfinished semplicity of stuffs (peats, charcoal and r/o water)and wisdom-

[Apistomaster]

Salvo,
I think we often overlook the amazing work of the old masters like Scmhidt-Focke. Where would we be without his enormous contributions?
Larry

[tatore]

Some Apistomaster picture...

[tatore]

and more...

[Apistomaster]

Hi Salvo and All.
Slavo helped again by posting more of my Heclels and their aquarium. These were just taken a few days ago and all the PVC tubes are pleco caves. This is enough documentation of my fish for now. Let's move on to more thoughts, discussions and photos of your Heckels. Mine are still teenagers and about 9 more months needs to pass before I believe my Heckels become mature enough for possibly breeding by my estimation. I started just as Salvo has, with the smallest Heckels we could find. It was my hope that will help them become better adapted to life in captivity than had I bought large adults. Although for the record, I did have a couple of large adults that reached the stage of cleaning a possible spawning site many years ago but nothing ever came of it.
The keys to breeding Heckels most likely lie within their natural history and actual progress made by aquarists so lets try to figure out all we can.
Larry

[tatore]

They are in good shape!!
Thank You for your loriicaridae list, because I have none of them with heckels, for pH and temperature and succesfully all I hold in the same tank are tetras "axelrodi", some badis, and corydoras, but it might be useful to know more for having always the ground clean.

No dwarf ciclids, only some angel and just one altum (:( ), but they live well with same parameters.

Good news are that since we've started this discussion a couple of heckels show the caudal fin not light but darker...it means that some prayer is going up in the sky:D ( the evident symptom that something is happening), and they are taking a strong position in aquaria.

Turning back to your tank:
I see a pump that create movement on left back: why do you use it?
No dark back screen and I'm sure that if you observe them attemptly they use to move more toward the ground(brown) than for the upper side of the tank, neither for left and right side of tank, totally exposed to the light.

Seldom heckels do not feel secure if they don't find a dark black side to use as a shelter( I use a dark blue plastic sheet, one dollar per meter, and high roots).

You also have a plant that seems to be a "Ceratophillum demersum"..have you never tried to use it as a floating plant.

In my next project I'll have plants to put along the back of tank, like "Philondendron"(but only the roots, of course) and, if God assist me in my project, "Cyperus sp." as natural filtrator for exceeeding nitrates-

What do all you think about this?

[Moon]

I just got my Heckels last Friday. They are small about 3in (7cm) and are in a bb QT tank. They appear to be quite shy and will come out to feed but quickly get back to a corner and huddle. The back of the tank is covered but not the sides. Salvo makes a good point about covering the sides. I will try it. It may make them feel more secure.
I am really excited about my little guys and this project.
Joe

[tatore]

How many heckels did you bring?
I mean, it's important a dark back cover, but about the l/r sides it doesn't matter (if you don't have aquaria in a walking area :D ).
Anyway with heckels time to see them not shy is needed to wait: the few times I've changed their tank I've seen them after two months :D :D

[Moon]

I got seven little ones. They do come out when hungry. The tank is in my fish room. So no heavy people traffic, only me. They seem to know me by now.
Joe

[tatore]

Great, Joe!!!
It's the best figure to start!
Please, follow us on this project, and express any impression you'll have from your...children. We all need it.
Any picture about the special guests and tank are welcome.;)

[Moon]

Thanks Salvo
Yes, they are my children now. My real children are all grown up and left the nest. I am not good at taking pics, but I will try.
Joe

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear all,
my name is Heiko Bleher and some may know me. I just came back from another expedition (conference and collecting in southern India with great new discoveries, although there are no discus, only 3 other cichlids, but none of the latter is new) and saw that you all have some good comments on Heckel discus. But I wanted to ad a couple as the thread is very good.

First of all I must congratulate Salvo, my dear friend and translator of the Italian version of Bleher's Discus volume 2 (which I want badly to bring this year, but with 12 more field trips and 29 conferences booked for this year, time is running out and translations in 7 languages must be completed before printing...). He is definately right what Heckels are concerned (and has very well read my volume 1 about the wild discus well), but some others not.
Yes, Heckel discus need shade and places to hide, and lots of it, it is in their nature and in their (protective) gen. But they do not live were a heavy growth of floating plants exists (as Larry mentioned), as there are very few in the acid waters of the Rio Negro system and specially hardly ever were Heckels live. The water is definately to acid for most aquatic vegetation to survive and/or drive. No "heavy growth" is able to develop. But there are, what are considered terrestrial plants, which live part of their life under water (specially in the raining season), the Amazonian acará-açú bushes. And Heckel live, feed and find protection under those in many of their habitats (well explained and documented in my volume 1). Heckels live also under logs and/or drift wood, roots and submerged branches of trees in the igapós and lagos (heckels never, or hardly ever, occur in open Rio Negro waters because of the predatation danger and the bright daily sunlight, which even in the dark water penetrates to a certain extend).
Now what one can (should?) do to keep Heckels adequately is, as Salvo already mentioned, place some Philodendron on top (ie Monstera deliciosa), so its large roots grow (almost automatically) into the aquarium water (you should have an open tank anyhow for discus). Logs (watered drift wood, roots) or what I did, and worked very well is:
1. Many years ago I asked Holger Windelov, my dear friend and founder of Tropica Plants in Denmark, to root plants onto long pieces of watered wood and place stickers on its side to attach dem to the aquarium glass. And he did. I decorated an typical Heckel discus biotope aquarium at one of the first the Zoomark Fair and Exhibitions in Firenze, Italy years back and attached those wood-grown plant pieces (they were Microsorium pteropus - not really Amazonian...), which were about 10-14 inches long, on both sides of the 7 foot aquarium and placed 20 semi adult Heckels in it. That group immediately swam below those logs and stayed they beautiful. When they moved, they swam in the group to the other side, below those attached planted logs there. It was a sight and everone wondered. The alpha animal immedietly took the lead and it was wonderful.
Another thing I did a few years back in Duisburg, at the International Discus championships in a typical Heckel discus authentic biotope aquarium with 50 adult Heckels in it from the area of the Jatapu River (see also my book, page 327) and as I wanted to do it authentic I looked for hanging in trees/branches, as I simulated the flooded forest biotope time and found in the vicinity of Duisburg, a German tree with red seeds, just like some Amazon tree in the Igapó, and I cut a branche and placed it partly submerged into the 800 gallon tank, with just some logs and fine white sand. The Heckels had the time of their life. They even started to wanting to spawn in those 4 days... Many of the over 55,000 vistors asked were I got this plant... (and could hardly belive that it was from Duisburg...).
But this is what it is in nature and the fishes (wild discus) feal it immeditely. Naturally to breed them, you need to adjust the chemical parameters, for Heckels a must. That is also why Heckels are so unique. They don't require a high oxygen level and definately no turbulent water (no strong filter outlet nor any strong aeriation – if at all), as they come from slow, or none moving aquatic habitats. In nature they start to spawn after hardly 12 month, but in aquaria only (normally) after 2 years, as they need a long acclimation period.
But as you all know, breeding Heckel discus successfully has been in the hand of a very few guys around the world. They can be counted on a single hand... (that is Heckels with Heckels, not hybrids). Surely because the biotope and chewmic al parameters have hardly ever been meet. And naturally not their nutrition (that is why in my book I wrote about that subject more than 80 pages and researched hundreds of Discus stomachs and guts during the last decades, from discus immedietely after collecting in nature).

So I hope you all will have great Heckels and a great time and success with your breeding efforts. But remember, it is the "authentic" - nature-like - biotope that will help.

Now I have to go, as I must continue volume 2, Salvo is waiting...

best regards
always
Heiko

[Moon]

Thanks for the valued information. I shall certainly try to recreate this biotope for my Heckels.
Joe

[Apistomaster]

There are several of my Heckels that have dusky colored fins I associate with brooding colors, especially two pairs that have formed bonds. One of them is the dominant or alpha male of the group.

Mentioned earlier was wondering how Heckels find each other. I get the impression they are a shoaling fish and quite social amongst themselves probably from the beginning of their lives. I would think that they find another shoal and maybe mix together then subdivide depending on the season, availabilitly of food, or any number of reasons but that individuals are the exception and not the rule. I think Salvo made the point well for keeping Heckels in groups of 10 or more to simulate their usual behavior in the wild.

Larry Waybright

[kaceyo]

When two Heckles do breed, are all the fry Heckle types or are there other types as well?
Thanks,

Kacey

[David Urban]

Thank you to all of you specially to Salvo for this magnifical post
Salvo I am from Mexico I have 5 heckel in my 40 gallons quarentine tank, could you send me a PM with how to deal with this wonderful fishes
My tank is 100 gallons with hibryds I will sell all of them just to have my heckels and RSG as well as I can
Regards

[Apistomaster]

kaceyo,
Heckels are a species of discus and not just some color variety. Hybrids occur but are basically nonviable. Heckels make Heckels and not an unpredictable variety of color varieties.

Heiko Bleher has, to my satisfaction, settled the debate about Heckel hybrids. Yes they occur but they are nonviable. The surest proof most biologists require that a species is valid is whether it is reproductively isolated.

I have felt this was the case for a very long time but it was just my opinion. We are now at the point where the burden of proof to the contrary is on those who would dispute this.

Larry Waybright

[kaceyo]

Larry,
I know there has been much debate over the classification of discus in general and Heckle is generaly considered a species in itself, but have never had the chance to ask someone who has actually bred two wild Heckles how much variation there is within a spawn.

Kacey

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear Kacey,

if you really are able to breed Heckel discus with Heckel discus, you should have very little color variation between them, specially if you have received (bought) them from one and the same source. Once they are from one source the possibility is nearly 100%, that they both (or all) come from the same collection spot/area.
But you can see it in my book, on the pages 165 up 177 (and elsewhere in the book), the color variants I found in nature (with the exact location). There you can compare with thoset you have and classify them easy. And than you will know what you will get out, once you spawn and raised them.

Good luck and all the best

Heiko Bleher

[Apistomaster]

Well, that is why we formed a Heckel subforum. I have been planning my own project dedicated to breeding Heckels in captivity after 40 years of discus breeding. I have spawned and raised all other categories of wild discus, greens and the blue/browns.

It was clear to me in 1970 when I obtained my first Heckels that this discus was very different from the others. The intervening years have done nothing to change my mind.

As H. Bleher has said, only a hand full of aquarists have accomplished captive breeding of Heckels. I would add to that: this statement covers about 50 years of keeping discus by the best and brightest aquarists of the 20TH Century.

That doesn't mean it can't be done or I would sell mine all off and go get some greens.

I think it is useful (at least for myself) to consider the Heckels in the same light as the pioneers of raising reef fish in captivity. Accept the paradigm that the Heckel will not yield it's biological mysteries easily or quickly. Accept that this is an aquaristic challenge with few freshwater paralellels but one that has unparalelled rewards if and when we understand how to simulate their environment sufficiently that their biology will do the rest for us.

I really don't know just how to convey adequately the challenge this species of discus presents to aquarists who would breed them. They are the final frontier of the discus fanciers' world.

Larry Waybright

[tatore]

Just thank you, Heiko, I've understood lots of things since we met the first time.
If discus have a correct literature as a right support for enthusiasts and breeders is for your book(s).
At 40 I decided to take back to study Biology and now I'm busy until September (I have to study lots of books)-
Curiosity and interest started from the wonderful world of discus and aquaria-
Hope to read your pages and translate for you in italian.

Thank You Heiko.

Thank You Larry for your kind words.

[kaceyo]

Thanks Heiko for your insight into heckle breeding. Always informative and enjoyable to read.
Larry,
Good luck on your new discus endeavors. Hopefully you will be able eventually to add your name to the short list of heckle breeders.

Kacey

[Apistomaster]

Hi kayceo,
I appreciate you wellwishes but I have no illusions about the challenge they pose.

Salvo and I have been in a contact for some time now sharing our observations and thoughts about Heckels and have become fast E-friends.
We are approaching the challenge slightly differently which I feel is not a bad thing as I feel it will take much experimentation to come to more useful conclusions. We do do differ in our belief that Heckels require water matching their native habitat but I am using water with a pH of about 7.2 and 110ppm TDS for raising my fish.
I am doing this for two reasons: 1. Laziness or convenience. and 2. Discus tend to grow faster in water with more dissolved minerals.

I do not think that it will work for breeding though. I may even be running a risk that the ovaries with be damaged. Again, experimenting.

Larry W.

[Moon]

I agree with your thoughts Larry. Mine are in well water for grow out. When they are adults I will change water parameters. They are still small and will take about a year to mature. Interesting thought about the development of ovaries.
Joe

[Apistomaster]

Hi Joe,

Don't be too surprised if Heckels take twice as long as other discus to become mature enough to spawn.

Larry W

[Moon]

Hi Larry
I have lots of patience.
Joe

[Apistomaster]

Calcium deposition in the ovaries of many of the SA soft water tetras such as in Cardinals, Rummy Nose, Neons and the like has been cited in aquarium literature regarding problems with spawning fish reared in harder alkaline waters so that thought lingers over me as I grow my Heckels up in 7.4pH and 110mg/l TDS.
I am just giving it a try.
Mine are beginning to act much more like adults now that they are all 4-1/2 to 5 inches in diameter. A little courtship, bonding between pairs, and increased territoriality by said pairs. It is looking good so far. I think I'm looking at abiut 6 to 9 more months for my fish to become fully mature.
I got all the way with a pair of Heckels I bought as large adults many years ago as cleaning and guarding a site on a large flower pot. That was when I lived on the other side of the river from where I live now. The pH was the same but the TDS was 240mg/l. I was able to breed and raise wild greens, and Blue/browns in that water.
I know that 110mg/l is very high compared to the Rio Negro lagoons but just maybe healthy Heckels can be successfully bred in this water. I am more concerned about the osmotic pressure of this water preventing normal egg development as it does with the softwater Characins so I will change parameters when a pair gets serious and they are in their own tank.

Larry Waybright

[Moon]

My ph is 8.2 and TDS 340mg/l and raise all my domestic discus in this water. The baby Heckels are in this water for now and so are the Altums. I am thinking of changing the water in the Altums tanks this summer. They are about 18 months now.
Joe

[brewmaster15]

Hi larry,

Calcium deposition in the ovaries of many of the SA soft water tetras such as in Cardinals, Rummy Nose, Neons and the like has been cited in aquarium literature regarding problems with spawning fish reared in harder alkaline waters so that thought lingers over me as I grow my Heckels up in 7.4pH and 110mg/l TDS. Do you have references for these articles... Its of interest to me and I have not seen reference to it before.. I have seen it speculated that discus eggs once layed do not hatch in hard water because of the minerals in the water..The thought was always that this took place outside the fish though.. If theres info on it happening inside the fish...that is very interesting.

Thanks,
al

[Apistomaster]

Hi Al,
I can't recall the specific references. It is something I have come across in articles and old texts over the past 40 years and all in reference to SA softwater Characin breeding. If I find anything I'll post it. I think it is a hypothesis put forth by German authors.
Larry

[raglanroad]

Hi Al,
I can't recall the specific references. It is something I have come across in articles and old texts over the past 40 years and all in reference to SA softwater Characin breeding. If I find anything I'll post it. I think it is a hypothesis put forth by German authors.
Larry
There have been many such references to some calcium related difficulty in getting the eggs to come out. I think a few might have been scientific references, Larry. I can't remember offhand though.