Heckel F1

[Patrick70]

Hi All,

Herewith attached my Heckel F1 n juv.


regards.

[Ed13]

Nice!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
What heckel cross were F0?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Patrick,
Since we have a new section for heckel s I am going to move this there.:)

By the way... This fish looks like it has red turq in it... does it?

Thanks for sharing!

-al

[Apistomaster]

Hello Patrick,
I have basically the same questions as Ed13 and Brewmaster15.
This is a pretty discus but it appears to be the result of of considerable Turquoise in it's pedigree. An F1 Heckel is the result of the mating of two wild Heckels, so questions are raised about it's ancestory. It has many qualities of certain domestic strains, specifically HiFin Turquoise and a little Heckel.
Crosses are interesting but far from raising pure Heckels. There are even wild fish marked like this but with the more circular profiles typical of wild fish but they are not considered to be Heckels. Any info you could provde would be heipful.
What do you know about it's background?
Larry W

[ShinShin]

I don't necessarily see alot of turquois discus (red or otherewise) in this fish. Looking at the dorsal and anal fins, it suggests to me that the fish could be a natural hybrid by the continual black ring it displays. This black ring is usually apparent in the wild brown/blue discus, and it is well known that Blue discus and Heckles have overlapping ranges and will hybridize freqently.

Mat

[Ed13]

I don't necessarily see alot of turquois discus (red or otherewise) in this fish. Looking at the dorsal and anal fins, it suggests to me that the fish could be a natural hybrid by the continual black ring it displays. This black ring is usually apparent in the wild brown/blue discus, and it is well known that Blue discus and Heckles have overlapping ranges and will hybridize freqently.

Mat

I understand what you are saying and at first I also thought it was a natural occuring cross(I'm not really an expert with wilds), but he stated:

Hi All,

Herewith attached my Heckel F1 n juv.


regards.
It may be a misunderstanding on my part but this clears the doubt about them being wild. I guess all I wanted to know was if they are F1 then what were the F0. I thought about blues:) btw

[ShinShin]

I didn't mean to suggest that I thought this was a wild Heckle cross. Asian breeders have been successfully breeding Heckles for some time now. The reason that we don't see more of them is that there seems not to be a large profit margin in breeding them, as they are not in demand. This fish could have been (and probabally was) bred in captivity, maybe with another wild or domestic royal blue or similar type. This is just a guess and by no means not the only opinion. It would be nice for Patrick to give us some more info.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Heckels display the distinct black ring whenever the mood moves them. It is very
prominent in my suspected females when going through preliminary courtship behavior.
It shows up on almost all brooding female discus except some of the domestics that have had most of the melanocytes bred out of them. Not ever had any of those so I couldn't say for sure.
I don't think it is a very useful diagnostic characteristic.
Larry W

[brewmaster15]

Hi Pat,
Can you post some additional pictures? I'd really like to see the mate of that fish. More info on the pair would be really helpful as well as the conditions they were bred under.

Thanks!:)

-al

[ShinShin]

I will disagree with you on that one, Larry. I have never seen Heckles with distinct black rings like the one here on the photo, nor have I seen any to this extent on the many, many live Heckles I seen or photos I sifted through. The Heckles I own now don't. The two wild Heckle crosses that I have do.The wild browns (blues if you like) have this characteristic. Its not a matter of mood for them; it's simple there. Heckles do not have such a ring in my experience and/or observations.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

All I can say is that I have few that do The rest of them don't.
Even Heckels vary between individuals despite the fact that they are probably the most consistent in looks of all the discus.
You can see some in Aqualog SA Cichlids IV Discus and Scalare, especially the photos of a breeding pair but on some other examples shown.
Inductve reasoning fails sometimes. Example: Just because one has only seen black cows doesn't mean that all cows are black.

[brewmaster15]

I can see that ring on some of my heckels....not as pronounced...

But I am wondering... How many heckels have we seen that are breeding to know whether that Ring becomes more pronounced during Breeding? ;):)

Just thinking out loud.

-al

[Rod]

I very much doubt Patricks fish has any heckel blood what so ever. It looks all brown/blue to me although i don't think that is a fault in itself as it is an attractive fish. The heckel bar is not that uncommon to those among us who have a lot of experience with blue/ brown discus, it shows up by chance. I have many pics in my photo album of "heckels" that i bred that have no heckel blood in them.

[ShinShin]

There is a marked boldness of bars 1,5, and 9 and since this is a Malaysian discus where Heckle crosses have been produced commonly, there is a good chance of Heckle blood in this fish. How much is anyone's guess.

Rod, do you think that the pronounced bars you noted in your blue discus could have been throwback from a natural hybrid in the wild by previous generations of the fish you had or bred? I know you have a better grasp of genetics than most here do. I remember when teddyJ crossed a Heckle to a solid orange discus, he said that the Heckle bar did not appear in any of the offspring. They surely would have in future generations.

Mat

[Rod]

Rod, do you think that the pronounced bars you noted in your blue discus could have been throwback from a natural hybrid in the wild by previous generations of the fish you had or bred? I know you have a better grasp of genetics than most here do. I remember when teddyJ crossed a Heckle to a solid orange discus, he said that the Heckle bar did not appear in any of the offspring. They surely would have in future generations.

Mat

Yes Mat, It is possible there is some natural hybridization with heckel in my fish lines, but i have my own way out theories about why the blue/brown types have heckel bars from time to time. Basically i believe discus are a young group of cichlids and are still rapidly evolving, hence the huge color and body shape differences even from the same areas. The blue/brown types imo have evolved from heckel types as they spread out and found different niches to occupy. The reason the heckel bar mostly dissapeared is because it is an advantage for the discus in that new niche not to have a heightened bar, they somehow have an advantage over the heightened bar individuals so lost them over the generations. In the rio negro's tributies imo it is an advantage for the discus to have a heightened bar ,so it is still strongly evident. To sum up it is simply mother natures way of helping the fish (as a species) to survive.

Never had the pleasure of meeting or seeing teddy's fish setup, but the informatoin he gave you does not surprise me at all. Most likely the bar is controlled by several genes and the mateing of 2 discus carrying those genes is needed to make it show in some individuals. I agree that with continued breeding, heckel type bars would have appeared eventually.

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear All,

my name is Heiko Bleher and I just saw this beautiful discus, which you all are debating over. I can tell you, that this nice discus has nothing to do with a Symphysodon discus (Heckel discus), it is a rare Symphysodon haraldi (Blue discus), which can be found in the Alenquer region, and some other areas. You can see a very similar specimen (and all the details of it) in my new book on page 310, and elsewhere in my work.
My book covers practically every aspect of wild discus and more than 380 different wilds are shown - each with its preceise location of capture - which is meant to help anyone around the world to be able to identify and classify correctly the discus you have, bought or want to get. I wrote it to clearify once and for - even for feature generations - the misinterpretation for wilds around the globe.

I just thought I point this out to you all as it might be helpful and save you all time.

But congratulation to the breeder, and I would live to see the youngs growing up and what they look like (I am sure they will be nice blues, and if you are lucky you will have one or two with a similar design/pattern), as the one you have shown.

All the best
Heiko Bleher

[mikesmac]

Hello Mr.Bleher,

I didn't realize that you were a member here... welcome! I am one of the people in the group that bought your book through Bill Eagan (Absolutely Discus) recently, it is truly an interesting and thorough read. It took me about 2 weeks to get through it the first time and continues to impress me with it's quality every time I look back through it for some piece of information I remembered reading. I had actually been following this and other threads about the Heckel because of the references in your book about them and the difficulty (lack of success) in breeding them past a certain point by even the famous, well known breeders. I am really looking forward to getting Volume 2....do you have an idea on when you will be publishing it?

Mike

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear Mike,

thank you very much for your nice comments. Yopu have well noticed how much effort I have put into that book, and volume 2 has it equal...

Interesting is, and I am very happy, that you seem to be one of the few who really read it all. As most people I asked, although they give me the best comments, all 100% postive and constructive, some even call it the "Bible of Discus", they have not read it all. But are already asking for volume 2...

Anyhow, thanks and I am working hard on it and I am sure it will come out this year, but cannot tell you now exactly when.

If you read it over the parts of S. discus - the Heckel discus - and you are able, like Alberto, to get a good pair or 3 of helathy, good looking and not skinny or sick, discus than you are on your way. It needs definately the extreme low conductivity, at a constant value. That you must have. And the other things we talked about. Than I am sure you have a good chance too.

Thanks again and all the best
always
Heiko Bleher

[Apistomaster]

Helo Heiko,

I have had your new book a week now and have read it cover to cover twice already. Please be assured I am finding it an invaluable reference to all things discus.

Please understand, I was very hesitant at first about buying it because as you are very aware there has been many selfserving discus publications in the past but I found your book to be solidly founded in facts.

A Discus aquarist would be doing one's self a disservice not to heed the the advice and facts you have presented in your Vol. 1.

I began breeding wild discus in 1969 so I have learned to distinguish fact from fiction(fabrication) that has been presented in many publications since then.

Larry Waybright

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear Larry,

thank you also for youir nice comments. I agree totally with you (that is why I wrote, what I wrote on the begin of "How to use this book").
Larry I have 1000plus Discus books from around the world and do not know how many other publications in my files, and specially about wild discus. And reading in those over the last decades, I came more and more to the conlusion that people write about wild discus (and in most cases know all about them), although they have never been there (in the discus habitats, researched and/or collected or sampled). Only a very few went once, twice or even three times (less than a handful went more often...and than only with disqueiros, which collected for them ... not knowing the language... and often even not even where they were).
So, after more than 300 field trips and the research of the specimens collected, from my own sampling and not only of the fishes but also the water parameters and much more, I though I have material and figures to write it down better than the others. And what I wrote are only about the facts researched and hopefully it is good for generations to come. This makes my book different from all other books written, as I can only document what I have seen, experianced and anylised: facts and the truth. And I hope to do this for some time to come. (With most of the fresh- and brackish water fishes around the globe - that is also why I aim still 200plus destinations to research and colllect and not only to complete 1000plus field trips, but to finish my work on the most interesting creatures on planet Earth before it is to late.)

Keep up the good work and nice to hear that you belong to the "old guard" (you will love volume 2), thanks again and all the best
Heiko

[Apistomaster]

Dear Heiko,
Thank you for your kind words. I have been a student of discus a long time.
Recently I have been able to collaborate with Salvo Tratore and it has been a very productive friendship. We are doing somethings differently but I think that there is room to experiment using different methods to help uncover what works in captivity for Heckel Discus.

Many do not understand what the allure the Heckels have when there are so many more gaudy color varieties to choose from. I have always been drawn to them because they have a mystique all their own. I appreciate their subtle beauty and the challenge they present.

Larry Waybright

[ShinShin]

Larry,

Regarding the coloration of the dorsal and anal fins, literature describing physical charateristics of the Heckel, green, and brown discus states the the brown discus has a distinct purple/black ring completely encircling the dorsal fin from the back to the beginning of the soft rays as well as the entire anal fin, the green - 3/4's of the dorsal beginning from the back towards the soft rays, as well as the anal fin, while describing any dorsal or anal fins rings as indistinct on the Heckel discus. On a recent trip to Seattle to take a look at some newly arrived wild greens and Heckels, two tanks containing at least 30 discus, all the discus were as described as above. I looked through 7-8 books (including Heiko's) at wild discus, and saw no Heckles with the distinct black ring. I do have the Aqualog you mentioned but it's whereabouts presently eludes me. Might a Heckel's mood change this from time to time, probabally so, just as the intensity of the 5th bar darkens when stressed or ill, but unlike the brown and green, it is not there always. This dorsal fin characteric inherent to each species is often used by the likes of people such as Wattley in identifying wild discus and crosses of wild discus when pics are submitted to him for the purpose of an ID. There is significance to it.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

On the two Heckels I have with the "dark ring" more prominent than the others is very mood dependent and not identical to those on the other discus forms but definitely a prominent feature on those two fish.

This is really not a very important issue with me. I accept it as merely a normal variation.

[ShinShin]

But, Larry, I see it as factual, as accepted by the scientific community. ;)

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Hi Larry,
I only am saying I have a couple of Heckels with a definite and similar but not identical circumferential band to that of other species. Not as a diagnostic characteristic of a Heckel just some have a more prominent ring than most Heckels. To me it is a minor variation in color pattern within Heckels.
Just as Heckels have varying widths of horizontal striations. Interesting but not dianostic of anything except perhaps of a isolated population of Symphysodon discus at best.