To Biofilter or not? help me out here...

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Been thinking about something and want to get a discussion going on it...

Most members here use sponge filters or powerfilters to biologically remove ammonia and nitrites from their tanks... we use wc to remove Nitrates or plants in some cases.

In many hatcheries with drip systems and continuous flow systems...these may be used also .

I know of several breeders here and overseas that use no filtration, instead they just change water...I figured 100% 1-2X aday.. but what I found was some do as little as 30%? I suppose biological filtration is being carried in the water column in that case and probably on the tank walls.

To my conditioned mind the above situations don't seem like good conditions for discus to breed in, but they do and quite well by what I have heard and seen.

So heres my questions..

1) If you are doing water changes of 80% and higher daily... are you wasting time and money with biofilters?

2)Is there an inherent benefit in the non-bio filtration method... over using a bio filter.. what role does pH and alkalinity play in this..


I'm so intrigued that I have switched a tank or two of breeders to just water changes...I'll go with ro water and keep the pH acidic just in case.. in my mind... If I did that...any ammonia generated would be as the least harmful ammonium.. and without a biofilter present..that should stay as ammonium and not get converted to toxic nitrites....
I'll also go with 80- 100 % wc daily as I am a little anxious on this.


Anybody ever do this? thoughts on this etc.

Thanks,
al

[brewmaster15]

One benefit I can think of right off the bat is limited placed for parasite eggs and cysts to hide.. Filters suck these up and and may provide a reservoir for things like fluke eggs..

-al

[roclement]

Al you are an early poster! I think that as long as you have enough water movement in the tank to allow for gas exchange, and your tank is not overcrowded, or overfed, this no filter approach should work!

Your second point seems to be correct, in most cases, save some of our most excellent members! Filters become more of a place for problems to occur than a beneficial area for bacteria.

Please post your findings, you might just save us all a lot of money and work!

Rod

[pcsb23]

I know a lot of the Asian breeders in places like Malaysia don't use any bio filtraztion, but their water is soft and acidic, and I believe they do 100% w/c at least once a day.

I would be loathe to try it with water of a ph greater than 7.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

I'd be interested in your results.

Couple questions...........

1-Did you start with a sterile tank or just pull the sponges?

2-Are you testing Ammonia, nitrites & nitrates daily to see if they lower or raise with time? And what are the results so far?

Sounds like a constant drip system would work fine without bio-filtration since its basically constant water changing and the amount of ammonia, nitrite & nitrates would depend on how much the drip is.

Keep us posted.


I do however feel the expense of a sponge filter and air pump running it isnt that much compared to the time it takes to have to do more frequent WC's.

[brewmaster15]

Cage,
I did not sterilize the tanks....just wiped it down and pulled the filter.. and did as close to 100 % wc as I could do..

At this point we are at T= 30 mins in the experiment... since I just set this up 5 mins before I posted:)


I'll monitor ammonia and nitrites probably daily before the wc.

-al

ps.. Rod, mornings are my best time.:)

[kaceyo]

Al,
Are you going to do one or two 99% wc's a day? And what is the target pH in this tank? When raising fry artificially I noticed that overnight the total ammonia would reach levels most would consider dangerous, but due to the pH being a bit under neutral and the ammo never climbing higher than 2ppm it was never a problem. And that was with the tiniest of fry. I did find ways to keep the ammo from getting so high but still, I had no probs when it did.
Great experiment.

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Kacey,
I'm going to start with ~100% 1x a day... and see what that works out to in a 29 gal for ammonia...I'm actually hoping to eventually have enough info to try less water changes..

oh and since RO water isn't exactly cheap to make...I'll be using the water change water over in another breeder located below it...provided the parameters are good.

-al

[Timbo]

hi brew

good luck with the experiment and it will require diligence with the w/c's. i think that it will work fine if not too many w/c's are missed or not missed for an extended period of time. i like having a sponge or two going all the time myself so that if i need to be away for a few days...bio-filtering is not a concern.

i am sure your plan will work, it just wouldnt work for me :)

[kaceyo]

Al,
I have a pair carrying fry that went freeswimming and attached yesterday. The filter in the tank was killed off by using formalin for fungus control of eggs too soon after a PP treatment, so it has been running with mechanical filter only for about three weeks now. Just prior to the once daily 30% wc's the ammo has been testing at 1ppm for the full 3 wks. I pulled the Hydro V yesterday and today, 24hrs later, it's still at only 1ppm, so I know there has been no bio-filtration going on.
The tank runs at a pH of 6.6 to 6.8 and is fed three very light meals a day. The fish seem to have had no negative effects, at least behaviorily or visually. So I think your experiment will be a big success. Now I'm thinking that if I had simply removed the filter 3 weeks ago and started doing larger wc's instead of leaving it in the tank to recycle, the water would have been much cleaner as there would have been no trapped detritus in the sponge filter.
If I did it on a larger scale I would want to have fully cycled backup filters in case something came up and I couldn't do the daily wc's.
Looking forward to your results and insight into this,

Kacey

[GrillMaster]

Nice test Al! I imagine you will have a pretty good idea with your amonia tests before the next water change.

It will be interesting to see if your 29G can make it 24 hours after the 99% with out any ammonia readings.

Mark

[April]

well..i have heard that some asian breeders with fry dont use filters..and i was told that the filter is what made the fry have problems with nitrates..and ph slides etc. for instance in my soft water..i had alot of problems raising fry and at 6 weeks i got the spiralling problem. when i had continuous water running in.. i was better off. thats what i was told..its the filter and the cycle was what was affecting them. some breeders in asia also leave the algae on the walls for helping fry with filtration.
ill be watching..and reading.
its the dedication thing though..with no filter..cant skip on wcs.

[brewmaster15]

I'm not sure about the not being able to skip water changes...In theory.. if the water is acidic..the ammonia generated should be ammonium.

When you cycle a tank with ammonia...theres a lag between ammonia and nitrite spikes.. Because as the ammonia increases theres food for bacteria that feed on it and make nitrite....when I have done this ammonia cycling , the lag is pretty pronounced... I'm guessing I would not see Nitrites for a while in this setup and as for the ammonium.. I know its less toxic than ammonia... I'll have to do some research to see how much less toxic ..Thats reallly key for how forgiving the wc regime can be.

Hmmm..
Should be fun.:D

-al

[Jason]

The breeders that I know that do not use filters including myself is for 2 reasons.

1)Heavy feeding and water changes is one of the major keys to getting the fry to market size quickly as possible, because of this the water in the tank must match the replacement water(wich is normaly tap in places like singapore) as closely as possible. In a tank with 1 or 2 adults and 100-300 fry being fed the amount of food required, if a sponge filter is used the end result of the nitrogen cycle can change the water parameters too much from the replacement water.

2)Alot of the strains nowadays just can't parent as well as the older or wild types, either they are too light in colour or just plain suck:p whatever the reason may be the fry will make a B-line to the dark vibrating sponge filter just about every time.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jason,
Thanks for the Imput here. Nice to see you online and posting:):)

-al

[April]

there..thats what i was trying to say..lol.What jason said. thats why my fry kept spiralling and dying . especially when their eating volume increased and their waste..

[D discus]

Hey Brew!
why not go with wipeing down the tank and 100% water change,this would be what they do in the Orient! Check incomming water for Nitrites! If OK , keep PH Acid (less chance of Ammonia!)(Discus Brief)(Did they ever restart in US?) DD

[kaceyo]

Quote "I'm guessing I would not see Nitrites for a while in this setup"
Al,
Why would nitrite (or nitrate) show up eventually in the system your planning? Keeping the sides and bottom of the tank wiped down and 100% w/c's should mean you'd never get these byproducts.

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Dick,
Discus brief never started up again.:(

Kacey.. I meant if I did nothing...no water changes.. it would in theory take days before I see any nitrites..this happens after the ammonia starts to increase.

well... its been over a day.. and I am barely detecting any ammonia products....my pH has been 6.5 -6.6, temp 28.5 C. Fish look fine. just so I get a handle on how the ammonia rises in the tank...I think I will let this tank go another 24 hours without the water change.. I want to see how the ammonium increases in this tank and what effect , if any I can see in the pairs behavior and appearence.

If anyone has any articles on ammonia verses ammonium toxicity...please post them... I have read a thousand times that ammmonium is less toxic... but how much less so..I have no idea.


-al

[tpl*co]

Al,

Is there any water movement in this tank? Do you have an airstone in there?

Tina

[brewmaster15]

Hi Tina,
yes there is, sorry, forgot to mention it.. It has the hydrosponge assembly...without the sponge...so technically an airstone.:)

-al

[GrillMaster]

Al, this was pretty good readin. Scroll down to the chemistry of ammonia.

When doing ammonia tests, you are actually getting the readings on the ammonia molecules, and the ammonium ions. The hydroxyl ions that raise the alkalinity in a tank forms with the ammonium ions to get ammonia. Lower ph tanks dont have the numbers of hydroxyl ions therefore the ammonium ions dont have the hydroxyl ions to attatch to produce ammonia.

Then water temp comes into play. Higher temps will turm ammonia toxic faster than lower temps. Which is not an option of course.


http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/ammonia.htm

Mark

[FishLover888]

Another thing to add: if you use some of the de-cholr products, it may affect your ammo readings.

[brewmaster15]

Mark,
thats an excellent article.. Thanks!!!:)

Tells me alot ...

basically... at 30 C... ammonia is 8X as toxic at pH 7.5 as it is at pH 6.5...It doesn't exactly say that but it implies it by the levels it says are safe for a fish.

-al

[brewmaster15]

Looking at that chart and my test kit.. It looks like I can have as much as 8 mg/l ammonia/ammonium at pH 6.5 and still be okay.. thats pretty much the highest reading on my kit.:)

-al

[Ardan]

Excellent experiment Al!:)
How are you getting the ph to 6.5? Adding anything? RO?
Not sure anymore what your well water ph is.

My ph is 7.5 usually, and KH 7, so to change the ph it takes RO + acids:(
I therefore have never tried your experiment although when I was treating oscars a long time ago, I added acid to keep the ph slightly acidic to counteract ammonia, seemed to help.??:)
keep us posted:)
Thanks
Ardan

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ardan,
I'm using Ro water which has a conductivity of about 50 Us.... I have had some minor fluctuation in pH... between 6.5 and 6.7 I have been adjusting with dilute hydrochloric acid .

been about 1 1/2 days nows... and I am reading maybe .25 mg/l TAN (Total ammonia)

-al

[kaceyo]

I've found the ammonia toxicity chart to be very reliable. There have been times I would have been freaking out about ammonia levels but after checking the chart realized I was in good shape. A real stress reducer. It's amazing how high levels can get without problems under the right conditions.

Kacey

[Greg Richardson]

Al. This is what we need. More people doing experiments sharing their results while getting feedback. Good for the hobby!
Thanks!

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Dick,


well... its been over a day.. and I am barely detecting any ammonia products....my pH has been 6.5 -6.6, temp 28.5 C. Fish look fine. just so I get a handle on how the ammonia rises in the tank...I think I will let this tank go another 24 hours without the water change.. I want to see how the ammonium increases in this tank and what effect , if any I can see in the pairs behavior and appearence.




-al

Did you bother to check the nitrite & nitrate readings?

Just wondering if there is still any nitrifying bacteria in the tank converting the ammonia? Possibly some in the sponge tube thats still operational in the tank?

[brewmaster15]

Hi cage,
Since the tank wasn't sterilized I am sure theres probably some bacterias present... but I have been monitoring nitrites and its been 0...

Nitrates I have not monitored.

-al
ps..
I don't use lift tubes:)

[brewmaster15]

48 hours and no wc... Fish look fine.. act fine...

tank parameters..

Total ammonia .50ppm-1.0 ppm
nitrites 0 ppm
pH 6.6

so basically ammonia is creeping up at this point.


Acid water may not be necessary to raise discus...but it does have some benefits:)


-al

[GrillMaster]

This is actually an interesting topic!

I for one dont have a squeeky clean tank. The lights stay on for 12 hours each day and as a result has built up diatom algae here an there on the tank floor an walls.
With 2 sponges and an AC 500 on the old 55G tank, is all that filtration really necessary with 70% WC's each day? Hmmmmmm...

I might just join in on the experiment Al...

Mark

[Polar_Bear]

Al,
Out of curiosity, are you doing anything for water surface movement?

[brewmaster15]

Larry,
Alls thats going on in that tank for surface movement is the typical airflow from the hydro sponge cage.... no sponge on.

day 3..


pH 6.6
total ammonia... 0.5-1.0 mg/l
nitrites 0 mg/l
temp 28.5 C

Fish are still looking and acting fine....Breathing is normal.

I have not changed any water at this point.


Preliminary observations..I'm thinking having hydros in my breeders that are getting 50% wc a day is probably not necessary at all if I keep it acidic...

More observations to come as time goes by.

hth,
al

[Ryan]

On my 55 I only use two Hydros with the daily water changes. They are mainly good for picking up small particles in the water because I don't have any type of power or canister filters. But really I think the w/c are what keep the tank clean and the water quality good.

Al, maybe you'll save a ton of money on Hydro sponges? :D

[brewmaster15]

Day 4...

Ammonia still creeping up..

temp.. 28.5 C
pH.. 6.6
total ammonia.. 1.0 -1.5 mg/l
nitrites 0

Discus appetite is good, behavior is fine, look and act fine.

No water changes yet.... at this point I'm thinking I may start with wc, as the water is starting to look slightly cloudy... though the fish don't seem to mind one bit. maybe wait another day.

The gears are definetly turning here.

-al

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Still curious about nitrate levels and if they have been rising or falling.

The ammonia is supposed to be ok with a lower PH but are the nitrates less harmful with lower PH as well?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Cage,
If I start at 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites....and the ammonia increases.....but I'm not seeing a nitrite increase...Nitrates should not be increasing.... as they come from Nitrite and the biofilter.



I just tested both my Ro water supply and the tank...Both are 5 ppm... thats what my well water is also. Thats using the Red sea nitrate 2 mini lab test.. The test I did was test #2...the more sensitive one of the two tests in that kit.

hth,
al

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Thanx Al .......... was just curious if there was still some lingering bacteria converting some of the ammonia to nitrites and then into nitrates and that may have been why the ammonia level was going up so slow giving you false readings of the amount of ammonia.

When the nitrifying bacteria is there and fully cycled .......... you never see nitrites either. Thats why i was wondering if you were still getting rising nitrates.

Thought maybe there was still some bacteria there to convert a small portion but just not enough to keep the ammonia at zero.

[brewmaster15]

Day 5...
still no water change...

pH ..creeped up a tad to 6.7...re-adjusted to 6.5
total ammonia... 2 mg/l
Nitrites 0

Fish look great...acting and breathing fine....eat well. really can't tell theres anything out of the ordinary with them.

al

[Alight]

Not sure I understand why you are not changing water? Without biofilter, the ammonia will rise at some constant rate. When and if a biofilter starts to form on the tank walls etc, nitrites will form.

Is the point to see how fast ammonia builds up? Or to see if a biofilter will form on bare glass?

I thought the original point was to see if just doing daily water changes would keep the water in good condition without any biofilter. If that's the case, water changes would have been being done.

Can you explain what is the reason for this experiment?

[kaceyo]

I could be mistaken but I think the point now is to gauge the effects of ammonium in a low pH tank on the health of the fish. How toxic is ammonium? I don't know, but this experiment might shed some light. We already know you can succeed in raising healthy discus without biofiltration if the pH is low enough and WC's are done.

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Al,
Kacey is right...

Initially I was interested in the hows and whys of the breeders that keep their discus without biofilters... but then I realized that there was some basic info I lacked.

Its hard to understand the effects of Total ammonia in an acidic tank of discus until you have actually done an experiment where you maintain the pH and allow the Total ammonia to rise.. According to whats availible for literature and charts... That value thats safe for fish should be close to 8.. After 6 days of no water changes..I am a value of about 2-2.5 mg/l

Now that I know the rate the total ammonia rises in this 29 gal, with adult discus, and 2x a day feedings.... over a period of close to a week.. I can see and understand how some breeders I know can have no biofilters, and do water changes of 30 % every day or two. One of these breeders has water thats closer to pH 7.0

If the water is acidic... It seems you don't need a biofilter with the kinds of wc that most of us are doing or saying we are doing... I barely saw any total ammonia in that tank.. the first few days...and what I did see... would have been non-toxic ....SO if I am doing 30% a day as I do on my breeders.. There does not appear to be much of a point in a biofilter....provided my water is acidic. In theory you could easily maintain this system with small water changes and probably a larger one once a week.

Theres another benefit here as well... whether you believe Nitrates are an issue or not in the wellbeing of a fish.. Discus come s from waters with pretty much 0 nitrates..... I always thought there were 3 main ways to get rid of nitrates..
-water change
- plants
-resins

now I know 4 ways. Theres not any nitrates if theres no biofilter..If you interupt the cycle at ammonia and lock it all up as ammonium... thats it...


I thought the original point was to see if just doing daily water changes would keep the water in good condition without any biofilter. If that's the case, water changes would have been being done. Now that I have some basic info...this is whats next on that tank... I'll do a large wc and repeat the experiment with 30% every day like I do on my other tanks and I'll monitor ammonia and nitrites.



I'm not advocating any one do these things...I am not sure what I will do with my observations at this time. I am hopeful that others will take a look at this and try it as well and share their observations .... I think theres some potentially interesting information to be learned here.

HTh,
al

[Marinemom]

So according to the forum page, there are four pages to this thread but I can only access the first three pages. Is there a reason for this? Let's see what happens when I post this and see if it does post because my first attempt to post this failed. I wonder if it will be on page three or four and if it is on page four if I can access this or not.

As far as the topic for this thread I think it is a very interesting topic and experiment. Please keep us updated as to the progress and results of this experiment.

Diane

[brewmaster15]

Must have been a technical glitch or gremlin in the system Diane.:)


I've been getting alot of questions by pM...
Just to answer some..

This is a 29 gal tank, in it I have 2 adult discus and an airsupply line.... I have been feeding 2 times a day... one feeding is pelleted food..( new life spectrum, ocean nutrition or tetra bits) the other frozen blood worms or brine shrimp.. I have not done any water changes to date..I have siphoned a little of the feces out as I see it.

an interesting note ... as ammonia rises.. my pH rises...this morning I was at 6.9 so daily I have to adjust pH to 6.5

hth,
al

[roclement]

Al, just a quick question, if you stop the bio-filters, there will still be bacteria cycling in the tank itself (surfaces), so you will never be able to completely stop it, is that at all relevant, or am I just over scrutnizing?

If it s relevant, even if we stop bio filtration we still have to cycle our tanks??? Man...my head is hurting! If not, you may hae stumbled upon the easiest tank set-up method ever, water, air stone, correct temperature, dechlor, add discus!

Rod

[brewmaster15]

Hi Rod,
I think it safe to say that theres still some bacteria there... but not alot... and its limited to tank surfaces and water column.. Theres a tremendous difference of surface area for bacteria to colonize when you look at bio-media like a sponge. Think of how long it takes a sufficient amount of bacteria to colonize a sponge enough and reproduce enough to handle ammonia and nitrite in a non-acidic tank.... weeks and weeks.

At this point I am not seeing any increase in nitrates...the biofilters end product...nor am I even reading nitrites...so alls we have is Total ammonia levels rising.....and not continuing down the pathway.

hth,
al

[kaceyo]

Al,
Are you going to take the total ammonia up to 8ppm? It would be interesting to try maintaining the 6.5 pH and 8.0ppm total ammonia to see what, if any, effect it has on the fish. And if it does have a detrimental effect on the fish, see how long it takes to show up.

Kacey

[GrillMaster]

Al... I could be wrong, but I dont think you will ever see nitrites in that tank. Obviously no nitrates. The fish wont allow you to see nitrites. The ammonia levels will start adversely effecting the fish before you start to see the ammonia to nitrite turnover.

Like I said, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. :D

[brewmaster15]

Kacey,
I won't be able to carry this out much past the end of the week.... this up coming week I'll be MIA alot so the fish will get some time back in a biofilter tank..

I'll pick up the experiment again in a week or two. At that point It'll be just water changes.

At the current rate of ammonium build up.. I think 3.5 - 4 mg/l will be the max... unless the fish start showing stress. My biggest fear is that the ammonia will cause the pH to go up and brings it into the toxic range.. Keep in mind... This will have been over a week since they have been exposed to ammonia in acidic water conditions... that alone is an amazing piece of info.:)


At this point...you'd not know anything was different in the water from my other breeders.:) These guys look fine, act fine and are eating as normal.

One thing I have learned is how wilds survive in those holding boats and holding tanks in the Amazon, and in shipping bags from there to here.. acidic water.. It also has application to shipping domestics..

take care,
al

[Ed13]

Kacey,
I won't be able to carry this out much past the end of the week.... this up coming week I'll be MIA alot so the fish will get some time back in a biofilter tank..

I'll pick up the experiment again in a week or two. At that point It'll be just water changes.



Now that you mentioned this I'm wondering if setting a time table is appropiate, for example weekly, instead of allowing amonia to climb to 8. Of course that would probably be a whole other experiment.

I for one find this experiment very interesting(I would have chicken out by the second day btw), never would have guessed the rise in ph.

[Alight]

I'm guessing that nitrites will eventually show up, even with relatively low ammonia levels. This is because, while the tank starts out sterile, it won't stay that way and some of the nitrospira (or is it nitrosomonous?) bacteria will eventually stray into the tank and take up residence somewhere on the glass.

Once they become established, it will be difficult to remove them, short of sterilizing the tank again.

While ammonia can be tied up in ammonium, nitrite will be toxic even at acidic pH.

[moik]

hello, Brew you stated in a previuos post that the ammonia is rising and the PH is rising. What method are you using to lower the PH?

[brewmaster15]

I'm using acid to lower the pH. muriatic acid...which is dilute hydrochloric acid.

Just so everyone knows.. I am between 3-4 mg/L total ammonia today... verified by another hobbyist that was here today ( good luck with those Angels jay!) As a point of reference on the level of total ammonia...... The ammonia test kit only goes up to 8..

Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 0.. pH 6.45 after adjusting...prior to that 6.9

Fish are fine..


-al

[roclement]

update?

[GrillMaster]

update?

Al's actually takin a lil time off at the moment. Bringing his family an his brother down to Fla. for a well deserved camping vacation. I am sure he will get right back into the experiment when he gets back. :)

tc
Mark

[Lance_Krueger]

Al,
Back from your vacation yet? Curious about more testing in this regard with soft water and no bio filter. What would you think about setting up a central breeder rack with fourteen 29's, a 200 gallon sump, soft acidic water, Daily water changes of more R/O water (about 80 microsiemens and pH of 6.5) and no bio filter? Would that work? Maybe some floating plants in the sump to eat up ammonium?
Thanks,
Lance Krueger

[brewmaster15]

Hi Lance,
been back awhile now, unfortunately:(:(


What would you think about setting up a central breeder rack with fourteen 29's, a 200 gallon sump, soft acidic water, Daily water changes of more R/O water (about 80 microsiemens and pH of 6.5) and no bio filter? I'd love to have one.:) Seriously.... I can't say how that work...just that given what I saw in this little exercise... Its something I think more people need to look at..

The key here is pH ..... I'm still evaluating this and trying to understand it all, so forgive me for being vague...but I learned a tremendous amount from this, came up with a tremendous amount of questions and ideas as well... and have a few more things planned....I'll post more on it after the next round of experiments...

In the meanwhile..If anyone wants to try and repeat what I did here, I think that would definetly be helpful.

Thanks,
al

[Lance_Krueger]

Al,
I'm very close to setting up just such a setup. I was going to use trickle towers with bio media, with a veggie filter in the 200 gallon sump beneath the breeder rack. But after seeing your experiment here, I don't see why it wouldn't work. And if it doesn't, I could always add the trickle tower after the fact, in this setup I have planned. Maybe I could use mine as a test setup, and document it's progress.
Even though you haven't set up such a breeder rack, is there anything in my short description that would be a red flag?

"What would you think about setting up a central breeder rack with fourteen 29's, a 200 gallon sump, soft acidic water, Daily 33% water changes of more R/O water (about 80 microsiemens and pH of 6.5) and no bio filter? Maybe some floating plants in the sump to eat up ammonium?"


I don't need exact firsthand experience here, just your thoughts on if this should work, or not. Or anyone else's thoughts or experiences here would be appreciated too.
Thanks,
Lance Krueger

[brewmaster15]

Hi Lance,
Sounds like a great test Lance...Just be sure to monitor and record all your parameters daily.

Based on what I saw with one tank...I don't see why what you are thinking would not work.. I think the only time you may run into a difficulty is when there are fry in the tanks... You will probably want to set it up so that any particular tank can be isolated from the system and have full water changes done 2X a day when fry are present ....either that or maintain a few biofilter hydro sponges in the sump to be used on the fry tank if needed.
what plants were you thinking of for the veggie Filter? I was just talking with Cary the other Day.. you may want to talk with him as he has incorporated plants into his setup at home.

Good luck,
al

hth,
al

[Lance_Krueger]

Hi Al,
Yah, I've got it designed into the system so any tank can be shut off from the system, like when I put formalin or meth blue in after the eggs are laid, or when the fry are on the parents backs and I want to start hardening up the water. Plus, I don't want the babies sucked up into the overflow of a central system if they're scattered before attachment.
Would a few hydrosponges in the sump make enough nitrates to matter? I wouldn't think so, would you? The plants in the sump would eat them up anyway, right?
Regarding plants, I was considering fast growing stem plants (like water sprite, or hornwort, or milfoil, or anachris, or something along those lines), but because my sump is going below the bottom rack of the breeder setup, the sump will be 8 feet long, by 3 feet wide, by only 12 inches deep. So because it's so shallow, I was thinking about some large floating plants, like water lettuce, or water hyacinth. I was thinking about putting a blind from the water line to the underside of the bottom shelf of the rack, splitting the sump visually into two 4 foot by 3 foot sections. That way, I could light each half of the plants on alternating photo periods. In other words, I would have the plant lights over one half of the sump on for the daytime period (12 hours), and then they would shut off with a timer in the evening, and then the light over the other half of the sump would turn on for the nighttime hours. The concern I had is that if you light the whole sump for 12 hours during the day, and lights out at night, there might be a pH fluctuation, since the plants would be producing CO2 at night, causing the lightly buffered, acidic water to crash the pH. Maybe I'm being too cautious, but it was something the plant guys on some of the plant forums thought would be a good thing to do to keep the pH consistent.
I also did some researching in the saltwater forums, since they are big into refugiums, and I wanted to see how I could apply that to freshwater. The saltwater guys do this alternating light thing with their saltwater tanks. They light the display tank that contains their live rock during the day for viewing, and then when the lights are out over the display tank during the night, the light comes on over the refugium, which consumes the CO2 produced by the live rock of the display tank at night, plus the refugium is producing oxygen at night. They say this keeps their pH from diving during the night, which they used to have a problem with until they started reverse lighting the refugium at night. Keeps the water parameters (i.e. pH) very stable.
With my central discus breeder setup, I don't have any liverock or plants in the main breeder tanks since they are barebottom, so I'm trying to duplicate the same situation in the sump, by lighting half the sump on alternating light cycles. Any thoughts? Am I overanalyzing and complicating this? I am just wanting to have as good of water quality as possible. I'm just concerned that I might not have enough nutrients produced by the breeder pairs, to keep that many plants alive. But I guess they'll just die back until only enough plants are alive to consume the given nutrients. I just don't want to have to dose nutrients or anything like that, as I want the plant part to be as low tech as possible. I don't know, since I've never done this. It's a big experiment for me, and I haven't been able to find any info out there on a central discus breeder system using plants, so I'm just trying to pick and choose info from the various forums (discus, pond, saltwater, plant, etc.).
If it fails, I can always just take the plants out, or even add a bio tower if I need to. It's all easily added to a central system, and I have it designed into the system if I want to do that. Actually, I was planning to do the bio tower thing anyway, before I saw this no-biofilter experiment here you came up with. Got me to thinking, so here you go. Thanks for the idea. Very helpful!
I'll give Cary a call and see what he has to say, though I don't know him too well.
Lance Krueger

[froody]

ok sorry didn't read full thread lol

[tdr1919]

Brew,
There is a very sucessful breeder here on LI that does not do massive WC's
he explains that he pulls about 1" of water from each of his tanks daily (this also constitutes as cleaning) and replaces it with aged, PH balanced water.
each tank (large & small) have a sponge filter and either a canister or a hang-on filter. His fish are large and healthy, he been doing this for years.
- Tom

[johnm]

how does he get rid of the nitrates?

[kaceyo]

Tom,
I'd be interested in hearing details about this persons setup. Any chance of getting tyhem to post here about it?

Kacey

[dandestroy]

So any update on this ammonia/pH or live plant sump etc...

[Don Trinko]

I'm cycling a 75g tank now with fish. I have 6 skunk cats in it. I have watched the amonia carefully and it never went above 1.0. It has now gone to 0 and the nitrites are starting to rise. I think it is because I have very few fish in a large tank.
I think those who do massive wc daily may have a biologic filter but it is doing very little. If you leave very little amonia in the tank the amonia eating bacteria colony would be smaller. I'm new to the Modern Discus keeping so please corect me if I'm wrong. Don T.