Heckels?

[tacks]

Okay I hope I dont seem stupid here but I am new to discus so new I dont have any yet but am working on it. my question is are Heckels just a breed of Wilds and Blues, Greens Etc. are also a type of Wilds. I am asking because it seems here that I am reading that Heckels seem a little tricky to take care. Most comments seem that they hide alot or are all Wilds this way. Thanks I hope I made my self clear Ed

[Apistomaster]

Heckels are the "original", first named and discovered species of discus found primarily in the Rio Negro, a special blackwater environment. They are all wild. caught and not bred often in captivity because they are harder to spawn.

Heckels are somewhat more shy than the other wild type discus but they do become tame after a period of acclimation and good health.

There are several things about them that sets them apart from the other wild discus. Check through the threads so far to get an idea about why some of us are trying to figure out what it is that might help us figure out what it is going to take to breed them. They are thought to be the evolutionary source of all other wild discus at this time.

I would add that does not imply they are a more "primitive" species. They have merely continued their evolution to fill the unique environments in which they occur.

They have less in common with domestics than the other wild discus because they haven't been bred as much and rarely but occassionally have bred with other discus. Those lines have invariably fizzled out at most by the F4 gen.
Larry Waybright

[tacks]

thank you ed

[ShinShin]

Heckles are being spawned Heckle x Heckle, and Heckle x domestic. They are just not being spawned in North American or European tanks with any frequency, and rarely still by us hobbyists. Asian breeders have had success breeding them. I have seen a tankful (at least 75 pieces) of wild Heckle x wild Heckle domestically spawned juveniles freshly imported from Asia 5-6 yrs. ago. Asian bred Heckle crosses were readily available from certain breeders as well during the same time frame I saw the 100% Heckles. Ray Kosaka had two Heckle crosses available often. Dennis Hardenburger, a former member here, purchased and spawned some of these Heckle crosses from Ray. You can read about it here if you search for it. Asian breeders were finding little interest in their crosses, so the profit margin was not there to motivate them to produce more.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

We hear that Heckels are bred on a fairly regular basis in SE Asia but I have seen little evidence or documentation that this is so. They are accutely aware of the value of pure bred Heckels in the world market so one has to wonder why they have not capitalized on it.

I remain skeptical.
Larry Waybright

[ShinShin]

Remain skeptical, then if you must. ;) That doesn't change what is. My phone conversations with Ray Kosaka and email communications with Shaifullah Yeng (Penang Discus) indicate otherwise. Like I said, Ray had a blue base and a red base Heckle cross routinely on his availabilty list. About 6-8 yeras ago several Asian discus sites offered Heckle x Heckle crosses as well as several other Heckle/domestic crosses available. One cross was a Heckle x Golden cross. The pics of this discus showed what appeared to be a golden type discus with a black Heckle bar resembling an Ica (only gold not red). Both Ray and Yeng said there was not much interest in these crosses, meaning no profit. Many people find the Heckle's bars obtrusive and don't find Heckles very attractive. Truth be told, I don't think they are the most attractive discus, either, not even if compared to only other wild discus.

Mat

[Ed13]

http://http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54108
pics 9-11 seem like heckel crosses to me!

[Polar_Bear]

Tacks,
Larry and Mat's discussion aside, I would urge you to start with domestic discus in any case. Far better prepared for your water parameters, especially if you can find a local breeder. Start with "easier" strains first and then go for the more difficult to keep ones is my best advice.

btw Mat it is spelled Heckel, for Symphysodon discus Heckel, as Larry said Johann Jakob Heckel being the first to return a discus for taxonomic identification. If recent events are to be believed S. discus and S. aequifasciatus are genetically identical, so will probably both be relegated to being Symphysodon discus. Like most of the people who have raised these fish, I'm not quite ready to buy into this yet, but time will tell I guess.

[ShinShin]

PB,

Yes, I know the history and know how it is correctly spelled, yet I mispell it 99% of the time. ;)

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Hi Mat,
I take that you are not ready to buy into H. Bleher's assertion that the Symphysodon discus Heckel is a separate reproductively isolated species?

Maybe Vol II will contain more on this subject.

I would never argue the point that Heckels are the most beautiful of the wild discus. I actually prefer the appearance of very high quality blue and greens but I have been there and done that and am trying to help understand or should I say, trying to learn how they can be bred in captivity.
If we can do that it would open an as of yet untapped source for the development of domestic Heckel strains that can be then selectively bred to produce new domestic forms. Some are sure to please the most jaded discus fancier.

Larry Waybright

[ShinShin]

Larry,

What I am saying is that Asian breeders had been breeding Heckels for some time and that they do not do so as much now because there is no demand.

I bought "Bleher's Discus" vol 1 from the author himself last summer and I am finding it very interesting. I have always suspected diet and age were two areas mistakes were being made by those of us that attempted to breed S.discus.The extremely low conductivity of the water was a given to me, and most likely all others as well. At this point, I am not willing to believe that we have to expose Heckels to the extremes mentioned in other threads regarding high/low waters, starvation, etc.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Hi Mat,

I agree with you about the deprivations cited but then that is a relative thing. Mild deviations from routine care may prove useful as has been shown in breeding many of the Hypancistrus species.
Perhaps constant routine care will prove sufficient and the real key is having a compatible pair of the correct age. I prefer that scenario myself.

Larry W.

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear all, and a speciall note to Mat's comments,

this is Heiko Bleher and I read your thread on Heckel discus in Asia and breeding of Heckel discus in Asia.

First of all thank you Mat, and I appreciate that you not only bought my book, but also went through my extensive work of nutrition of the wild discus in nature (which in itself was many years of work, research,and timeless observations above and below water etc., etc.).

But what you have definately wrong, as almost all people in Asia, is that Heckel discus are breed successfully in Asia. There has no real Heckel discus (Symphysodon discus) ever been successfully breed in Asia to my knowlefge and seeing, except for many of the so called Heckel cross'. Since I introduced Heckel cross from Schmidt-Focke and Homann to Asian breeders in the 1970s and 1980s, they have been breeding this hybrid, on and off. But NEVER a single S. discus with a S. discus.

The problem in Asia is, still today in most of the countries, that no one really knows what a real Heckel discus (S. discus) is, or looks like. They are totally fixed to tank breed varieties, almost everywhere. And most breeders and discus keepers believe a discus with a center bar is a Heckel discus (and in most of the Asian publcations it is shown and mentioned as such). I have never seen a single S. discus x S. discus breeding anywhere (at more than 300 breeders, from India, across Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, Korea, to Taiwan), only Heckel cross discus, that is a cross of a Heckel discus (S. discus) with a blue discus (S. haraldi). Even recently, in November/December of 2006, when I was invited for lectures on discus and to Judge in Malaysia (AQUAFAIR 2006) and in Singapore (World Discus Championships) and visted more than 50 breeders again in both counntries, no one had a single S. discus anywhere...
But all those which had a Heckel cross, they thought it was a Heckel discus...

Sorry but these are facts, as much as the facts that the real Pterophyllum altum from upper Orinoco (its type locality) has never been breed in captivity...

It is as Larry said earlier, so much mis-information out there, that it sometimes stinks (sorry, but I find no other word...). That is why I try my best to pass on only correct information and not to look to the fact which most do, that is good fo my pocket...

Keep that in mind and verify what I tell you, read my book again and wait for volume 2, as those facts - throughout Asia - are well explained in it.

And no worries to keep real Heckels in the water you mention, but if you really want to be successful in breeding real Heckels as Alberto, than you must give it the water they are used to and need for youngs to grow up.
That also is a fact.

Best regards to all of you,

Heiko

[Apistomaster]

I don't suggest that Heckels be subjected to extreme neglect then reconditioned in an attempt to induce spawning. I do think that there is such a thing as improving the conditions above the ordinary, timed to coincide with their breeding period.

This is similar to a phenomenon Apistogramma breeders are familiar with. It is very often the case that newly imported Apistogrammas spawn soon after recovering from the stress of capture and importation.

That is not an endorsement on my part to deprive Heckels to the brink of death and then reconditioned just to induce breeding. A very much milder regime would surely be the wiser course of action.

Larry W

[Martinphillip03]

Well I guess I am buying another Discus book

Marty

[ShinShin]

I am willing to conceed that there are many more people who know more about Heckels than I, however, I have seen what I have seen, that being a tankful of 2.5" Asian bred Heckel x Heckel juveniles (like I said, at least 75 pieces). These were not crosses, either. All looked like a clone of each other, and that being the physical characteristics of Heckel discus including very pronounced bars 1, 5. and 9, brown base body color, and very even horizontal blue striations. These were Heckel discus.

I have also seen Ray Kosaka's Heckle crosses he imported from Singapore and have a friend who has successfully spawned them. Like I said, you can read about this right here on Simply. Dennis Hardenburger is the man who spawned them. He also was the first to report the successful spawning of wild Curiepera's on any of the forums.This, plus all the photos that were posted on breeder sites of the many Heckel crosses. As I have already stated, there was even pics of a golden discus with the black 5th bar resembling an Ica Red discus. A man in Austarlia (teddyJ was his web name) also crossed a Heckel male to a solid orange pigeionblood female attempting to produce a solid orange discus with the pronounced 5th bar. To his disappointment, all fry resulted in no bars at all. Photos were posted on Discus Page Holland beginning with the actual spawning through the free swimming stage.

I don't know what else a person has to do to prove that these spawnings have taken place. Am I to believe that all these web site posting were frauds? That the discus I have seen were really not there? That my friend lied? Ray Kosaka and Yeng are full of BS? And what about all the pics of Heckel x Heckel, Heckel x wild blue, and Heckel x domestic in the book Asian Discus? That book has to be at least 7-8 years old now. Korean breeder Kim Young Gat had already bred Heckels to F3's at the time the book was published. Degen and Schmidt-Focke show their Heckel offspring in books published in '87 & '89.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Hi Mat,
The burden of proof does not fall on you but rather the breeders. If they wanted to they could reveal the steps they took to produce those "Heckels" you have seen.
Schmidt-Focke was able to demonstrate that Hybrids were no longer viable beyond F4 at most. The same thing applies to true green X other discus hybrids.

There is also the issue of mistaken identiy to take into consideration. There are wild discus that appear to be Heckels but are not in fact Heckels.
The plasticity of artificially bred discus has been proven obvious and a Heckel look alikes could be easily be selectively bred from haraldi stock. Phenotypes are not genotypes.(An intriging possibility on it's own merits.)

I do no doubt about what you have seen or heard. I do think there is a lack of proof that stands up to scientific rigor but that certainly is no reflection on you or your contacts. There is a distinct possibility that they got results that appear to pass the test but none that proves their fishes genotype. Phenotypically they could be dead ringers for Heckels yet they may be genotypically haraldi.

It will take years more to sort this out. More breeding experiments with fish of known genotypes carried out over time accompanied with solid documentation.

A very similar controversy is presently on going with regard to the breeding of P. altum angels. Specifically the Linke tank raised Altums. We hear that altums are also regularly bred in the FarEast but the details are just as sketchy. All the same issues and all the same lack of rigorous proofs. So please do not feel anyone, especially me, doubts what you have knowledge of within the limits of the information you have had privy to.

I respect and value you contributions and in no way doubt your sincerity.
I only think that there is more to this than first appears. Discus have a long record of mistaken identification and incomplete disclosure of "proprietary" information. We are all having to deal with this issue.

Larry Waybright

[ShinShin]

Come on, Larry. Why is it when someone else achieves something that others have not, the "have nots" always casts suspicion on the "have's " accomplishments (this is a general statement reflected here and other forums for years)? Isn't Kim Young Gat's write up (with photographs) in "Asian Discus" enough? Why does he have to reveal his success secrets to anyone (although he does mention some water parameters he used)? Why is it up to the breeder in the first place to provide anything more than a write-up and photos? I have "read" and "seen". I have not seen you disprove anything. All I see and hear is opinion from your side of the arguement (arguement as used from a logic point of view, not a fight). Show us some facts supporting your arguement.

I am aware of the difference between genotype and phenotype, as I am sure all the major Asian breeders do as well. We know Schmidt-Focke did. Degen often caught his own Heckels on his trips. So, there can be no doubt there. Those that he didn't, I am sure came from professional sources. Also, I doubt very much that there are that many blue discus masquerading as Heckels in the wild.The fact that it is proven that RSG and Heckel hybrids lose viabilty at F4 generations, is irrevelant, and does not take away from the fact that the Heckels have been spawned at least to that point. The F3 Heckels Kim spawnwd were not to domestics, so I would believe they are quite viable. Top Asian beeders have an uncanny knack to produce what they have set out to produce. Many of the domestic strains of today (some beautiful, others butt ugly) are the result of well thought out pairings, not the haphazard pairings that many novices are throwing together in their basement fishrooms hoping for that million dollar hybrid. It is ridiculous to even think that this would ever happen when millions of fry are spawned monthly by professional breeders in SE Asia that have a well defined goal in mind from the beginning.

So, while you doubt that Asians have attained success in this area, I'll accept the word of a professional importer who exclusively imported Asian bred discus and a top Malaysian breeder (and author of an excellant discus book) who have told me that there is little interest in Heckel discus, making them a nonprofitable venture. Spots are where its at in domestics, not obtrusive 5th bars, so that is where the breeders concentrate their efforts.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Hi Mat,
I am not being unreasonable to expect claims to withstand rigorous scientific proof. It is something that does not even warrant a justification on my part.
It is science that I care about not apocrypha.

Larry W.

[ShinShin]

I understand that, Larry. However, there is documentation on the subject, going back to the supposed first Heckel spawn in 1949, to Degen and Schimdt-Focke's success to the modern Asian accomplishments that for some reason you and Heiko seem to doubt have taken place. Three books off the top of my head that at least show pics with some anecdotal insight are Penang Discus 2nd edition, Asian Discus, and Asian Discus 2. The big advantage SE Asian breeders have attained succes easily (yes, with out much problem) is that the outside farms that exist there with the approimate photo period, temp, and water conditions mimic closely with Amozonia. There are pics in the books with Heckel discus up to probabally F5.

Mat

[raglanroad]

Mat,

this quote from Heiko shows me that a few breedings are considered acknowledged as verifiable.


But as you all know, breeding Heckel discus successfully has been in the hand of a very few guys around the world. They can be counted on a single hand... (that is Heckels with Heckels, not hybrids)

By using non-inclusion ( the safest way to make sure of no inclusion of mutts),in logical manner, all are rejected unless reasonably shown to be in the possession of a reliable source from capture locale to spawning in the tank.

Any f2, unless from f1 of similarly know solid chain of possession from start to finish, must be excluded. Tank breds bought from Somebody who bought from Somebody who bought..these offspring, which all involved may claim as "pure", cannot ever pass. Let one "kinda" respectable case in , and you let them all in. One weak link in the chain of possession, or ID and it's "all bets off".

One must start from wilds acknowledged to be heckel and document it in modern style, if it's to be accepted these days, because otherwise it could introduce the lowest form of success to a breeding project - a not-pure fish mixed in, right from the start.

Heiko has demonstrated to me that it is the logical route to take regarding altum definition of species. No matter how unpalatable to my personal or Altum Breeders' Club project desires, angelfish from any capture locales, other than the holotype collection locale, are not included until generally proven to be one and the same spread throughout the system , by DNA analysis.

In other words,to prove we have altum, we have to match DNA from the other locales to fish from the holotype specimen's capture locale, not the reverse.

DNA evidence acceptance has now reached the stage where it is considered the deciding factor, I believe, wherever possible.

Using the indicator of observations that populations are "Naturally breeding together - or not" to determine species differentiation is not considered as valuable a tool as DNA results are, it seems.

Somebody, soon, I'm sure, is going to do DNA testing on fish from Orinoco locations and we'll see. But it is up to the "inclusionists" to prove the case, to match to the holotype.


DNA acceptance lands a crushing blow to any naturalist theories of what "species" means. If a science uses measurements that are named, recognized units of measurement, it becomes more definite science. That's what most other "species-defining" distinctions lack.


On top of that, Heiko showed me why, (though I already knew the fact), that since even respectable museum specimen's ID have been horribly confused or are of different collection locale- and some remain so - that all pleas to authority of that type are null and void.

Add to this that some of the most highly respected scientific examinations have been on fish with collection locale I noted as saying " Dead. from "an" aquarium "
His direct assessment is better than that.

I should make it clear that I am not saying that Heiko said all these. I am saying that these are my conclusions that I reached after resisting for a couple of years most of what Heiko said regarding "altum or not".

I have not altered my position on what I expect the DNA will show regarding Orinoco angelfish from tributaries : I think they will show by DNA evidence to be the same as the holotype, but one must admit that we must match up to this standard of evidence.

And this is vital to our altum project.Edit: If my understanding of what heiko is saying is correct, my work for a couple of years might not be with altum, but another wild angelfish.

And yet when DNA testing is done, all Orinoco angels could be one species, if that's the way it looks.

But our project may not be a pure altum project if what I understand is correct. It might be a "Naturally Occurring AltumXScalare Hybrid" Breeder's Club or something. : )

It's not a thought I like.

[raglanroad]

then again, anyone who has a WILDxWILD heckel program, will in the future be able to prove the fry are pure heckel using DNA : )

[brewmaster15]

Dave,
By your argurment above, the only people who are really able to claim that their fish are wild heckels are infact the fisherman that collected them.... as they are the only ones that would definetly know they were wild., but I doubt that the local fisherman could tell the pure wild heckels from the f1 wild crosses that could in theory resemble the heckel parentage more than wild other parentage..for that matter, since phenotypes( how a fish looks) mask Genotypes( whats genetic inside) how can anyone really know what their stock is? Or whats inside an accepted "type specimen"

Like wise by your definition , I guess I better have all my heckels I now possess genetically tested to prove that they are indeed "pure"? heckels and not some natural hybrid.:confused: Now that'll cost me a pretty penny. As I did not collect, but purchased thru shippers. Someone please let me know where I can find a lab that is willing to test my fish against a type specimen? While at, please let me know which type specimen I should obtain genetic reference material from.

Though I value the science in genetic testing....What you are describing is not practical here... I Say that not because it isn't scientifically possible but because at this point...The experts can't even agree if a heckel is a species in its own right. so its going to be hard to test for something that may not exist...a species identity.

In order to genetically test heckels...you would need a standard to test against...Who will provide that standard to hobbyists like myself?..I'd assume it would have to be from the species type specimen and so again you need that and more importantly the access to it to run tests, I can see it now... hundreds of hobbysists begging for access to a type specimen. If as Heiko says the type specimens are all messed up.. what worth are they here? What can we test against.

Genetic tests are important, but they are not without their flaws.. If the reference material is flawed all results compared to them are worthless.

Though I understand the Altum comparison here...Altums are a distinct species and as accepted as one.. with heckels.. we have a bit of a more complicated picture, actually we have an exceedingly complicated genetic picture, IMO.

I for one, will take the wild heckels I have purchased from sources that had them shipped out of the Amazon. I will try in my extremely low tech hobbyists hatchery to breed them, because it is something I would love to achieve for many reasons... If I succeed I will count myself lucky beyond belief....If others chose to believe that I succeeded in this goal.. Great..If not and they question the validity of the breeding programs parent stock or offspring... I can live with that. Heckels breed in the wild and are numerous....all this hype about heckels being difficult to breed in captivity is true... but its only because we haven't focused our efforts on learning what it takes to breed them. By their reproductive success in the wild, I dont think theres anything difficult about heckels...the difficulty lays in us accepting that they may have different needs than other discus ( which is in fact one reason I believe Heckels are their own species)

So thats my view, without any genetic proof I can guarantee that it came from original wild Brew stock:):D
al

[ShinShin]

This has gotten far too complicated for our purpose, I believe, and if it continues down this road, many will lose interest in what we want to do - breed the wild Heckel. Alot of what has been accomplished in the aquarium hobby regarding fish husbandry has been accomplished by hobbyist and breeders, many of which have no scientificc background whatsoever. Is all this to be disregarded because of this nonscience background?

It's a given, Heckels have been proven to be difficult to breed in the home aquarium for the vast majority of the Western world. However, it has been done, and has done since the first recorded successful spawning in 1949. German breeders such as Degan and Schmidt-Focke (he has a scientific background) cracked the secret. This I have already mentioned and many also know. I have spoken to a man who resides outside of Seattle and he has bred Heckels back in the '80's. He tried for 5 years before he had success. His discus were over 5 years old when they spawned. They were from his original batch. Simply's own yogi just told us he spawned 3 different Heckel males, as others have spawned males as well, and that it appears that the female's mystery is what needs to be solved.

There is much info and pics as well to verify the Asian successes, and in fact, it has(d) been routine over there. But, I have already stated that, too. I, like Al, if I succeed, will tell everyone so, be satisfied with the success and won't care what anyone else thinks or believes, as I only have myself to please.

We are just hobbyists trying to have some fun. I am not going to have my Heckels DNA tested for this project. Just for the record, my discus were collected for Oliver Lucanus (Belowwater.com) in the Rio Nhumunda and sold to me by Oliver Lucanus on 12/12/06.

Mat

[raglanroad]

Actually, no.

remember, I said "reasonably shown". Nothing is foolproof, but true laxity in this area opens both the project and more generally, scientific knowledge advancement,to failure.

There is no doubt scientific ID of specimens has been messed up. That is historical fact , Al.

It does come down to DNA testing, unfortunately for your desires.
this is 2007.

What it comes down to is that the puzzles will not be solved by stay at home science. It is the active scientist who can have his specimens either personally collected or collected by reputable source that will do the proving for us.
All other ways include some wishful thinking aspects.

I'm not setting standards, they naturally rise as we become more aware.

As to access to the "holotype specimen" assertions, no again.

Once holotype locale DNA is studied, why on earth would it need to be tested again when testing for match ups by other fish ???????


Dave

[raglanroad]

There is a concept in science called "flasifiability". This entails realization that some things are not within the scope of science to prove untrue.

The existence of things which by definition are supernatural. These claims are not falsifiable by science because the subjects are by definition precisely able to defy scientific laws.

Similarly, if something is unfalsifiable, it is not science.

By refusing to allow that science takes precedence over wishes, one makes their project unfalsifiable.

Dave

[raglanroad]

important to understand about my conclusions: the distinction made between "exluded" and "not included"

"Not included" is provisional, not definite as "exclusion" is.

Personally, my project goes ahead. If we see in time that holotype area specimens DNA have been matched by some fish in other Orinoco tributaries, the door is wide open again.

[ShinShin]

Dave,

We are just some hobbyists attempting to breed some heckel discus.

Mat

[raglanroad]

Mat, believe me, I understand.

Like Homer Simpson, I had to go through the "five stages of grieving" after realization that Heiko is correct in his approach.

You see, somehow we have strayed from hobbyist land, and proposed a loftier goal: to make a BASE BREEDING STOCK for the hobby, a pool of 'pure' genetics.

This requires standards. If our altum project succeeds, then later on, in twenty years, if our fish are shown to be not "pure" altum in origin, we go down as having ignored science after having it shown to us. But having achieved a milestone in Wilds any case.
But having put lots of visually indistinguishable hybrid fish into the hobby. OUCH.

[brewmaster15]

Dave,

I disagree with you strongly.:)


You see, somehow we have strayed from hobbyist land, and proposed a loftier goal: to make a BASE BREEDING STOCK for the hobby, a pool of 'pure' genetics. That may be the purpose of your altum study group... Our heckel project is not that lofty an expectation.. ,,At least it is not my personal goal...others may have their own hopes...and thats fine,.. I think most just want to learn how to breed them... once thats accomplished all else can follow....Surely not before.

As for "Pure" genetics stock...That will need to be defined...but I Personally think that the reality will be far from the fantasy as to what is determined ultimatley, if ever, in Discus Genetics.:)

crawl before you walk...walk before you run....otherwise you are sure to fail and fall.

[brewmaster15]

From my introduction to this forum section..


Our purpose is to build an informational database on the requirements of wild Heckels and their biology. It is hoped that with such a knowledge base hobbyists and breeders may be able to captive breed Symphysodon discus in a consistent manner.

Without the above quoted accomplishments... none of what we are discussing here with regards to genetics and "pure" stock is even possible.

Hth,
al

[Darren's Discus]

Hi Guys,
quite a debate you have going on here.I am not nor confess to be a heckel expert have kept them over the years but never had any success. I to have read of heckel success and beleive it would be naieve to think that many people hav'nt had success with these fish there are a lot of people out there doing it for themselves and don't report it back in the late 70s and early 80s I remember a great discus breeder in australia his name was joe isencob he was breeding fish i had never seen before at that time he also had heckels not shure if he had any success with them or not what i'm saying is I cant beleive that the heckel has been around as long as it has and there has'nt been more succesful breeding ,we can put a man on the moon(or did we?) but we can't breed heckels I'm with shin on this one Asian breeders have been succesful in this area but due to there lack of commercial viability have not continued .If ford brings out a car that does'nt sell would you keep manufacturing it ! Please look at the post Dan from gulfcoast placed a few months ago titled wilds wilds wilds there are imo
some beautiful heckels there but are they wilds ?I expect not if you look at the vibrant colours and the straitions you would have to question there origin,
Dan please don't take offense to these comments they are only here for discussion purposes and i would love to own some of them !

cheers

[ShinShin]

Dave,

I have to agree with Al. It may be somebody elses idea to provide a "pure" Heckel domestic breeding pool, but until those more qualified to actually determine the discus genetic mess, and confirm exactly how many species we are dealing with (and exactly what they are) I don't see where this is possible. My goal is and has been to breed Heckel discus. It may or may not be anyone else's goal to do more. Until the species mess is determined by science, I don't see how more can be achieved. I feel confident that my current Heckels are just that - S.discus. If they do spawn, I will consider them F1. Since these were captured in the wild, in a region where there is an overlap with blue discus, can there be a cross somewhere in the lineage? Perhaps yes, perhas no. Or, maybe these discus were captured far from the overlapping range.

Mat

[raglanroad]

Edited Later:
Al,
I quote from a headline on the forum
Our ultimate goal is that of establishing a captive breeding program.
Perhaps my confusion over your statements stems from misunderstanding that. It must mean something different than what I comprehend. If you use latin binomials regarding your efforts, it signals the use of true specimens of the species named, I would think. "Captive breeding program" denotes an organized effort to me. running and stumbling is one thing. backpeddling till one pases oneself in reverse last tuesday is another. : )
End edit.

We are speaking of two or three different fields here, and I think Heiko addresses this situation well, as he can span at least 3 fields in his works.
You mention the hobbyists' field.
We have the collectors' field.
And we have the scientists' field.

The standards and even meanings can be different in the different fields.
I have fish from Oliver. I consider him to be expert in several areas, and just as importantly, reputable. So for any hobbyist considerations, I have fish that I can ask Oliver about: are they wild caught Orinoco angelfish ?

I can trust his answer. this satisfies hobbyist goals: the word of an authority on the subject, and who has a great reputation.

Mat, here's the situation on altums. Oliver tells me that he used to have a large supply of locally bred Linke line angels for sale, as many as wanted. Two local Quebec breeders were around. Horst Linke's line was productive.

If I were not selective, I could buy some of those how-many-generation-hand me-down-suspect fish, and call them Pterophyllum altum.If I were not selective.

But if I were, I would call them ALTUM TYPE ANGELS, not Pterophyllum altum, just to be more correct by being less wrong. These fish, to me, are provisionally not included in Pterophyllum altum. Some of our club members have the Linke fish. Any breeding of them will be a great source of excitement, and can further our studies, but those offspring will be categorized separately by me, cause I'm doing records keeping for the club until someone else does. In Poland they have had ALTUMISH Linke-ish Angelfish that sold for pennies U.S.

If I call scientific advances irrelevant to my hobbyist goals, I make my statements about Pterophyllum altum unfalsifiable. Everyone knows I'm not talking science, so my sesquipedalian mention of "Pterophyllum altum " could be fairly disregarded by those discussing it on the science level.

As to the collectors' field of work, we have to wait for biologist-
supervised collected samples to be analysed. For DNA work, that's the recommended route. At the current sophistication of such studies, they don't want LFS specimens. No catch coming in from origin unknown is really good these days. As well, if properly collected, other aspects might eventually be studied, such as what the relations are amongst species extant and extinct, and many others such as the reasons for changes in the discus ancestral forms over the years.

The scientists' field:
If I depend on Axelrod days' science understanding, as a hobbyist ( and so many fish were found and described ), I'm dealing with specimens described by such poor method that the description is almost void of meaning, as well as being of uncertain origin.

I can point out his hobby-level appraisal of the Heavenly Paradox Angel and you can actually laugh, at least you have to get a chuckle. The "dark gene" angel he was looking at was really sick, and had half the anal fin gone, and much of the caudal. So we are told that this is a "Moorish Idol !" appearance fish ( exclamation mark his ).


He mentions his favourites, and says he was hunting for blue headed discus...

If this information era is the source of angelfish hobbyist background understanding, it is outdated, as are those works built on some of Axelrod's contributions.

and "dead from an aquarium" is not much better for capture locale info; at least it's accurate though !

: )

Dave

[raglanroad]

I'll ask 66north ,my genetics info guide, for his thought on this subject.I already borrow some of his words and wreck the meaning so why not ? :angel:

He has a knack for presenting point counter-point and references on the science level matters.

[brewmaster15]

Dave,
Your altum project is a year or 2 old now right? Just as matter of back reference here, How many hobbyists have signed onto to your altum project and how many agree with your described criterias here?

Have you identified the Type specimen that you will test against for your altums? who collected it and documented its locale beyound doubt? Where is this Specimen currently? and is it acceptably agreed on as a type specimen by the scientific community?


Have you or any of those involved actually given all this a dry run by obtaining genetic samples of the Linke Altums in question, as well as your own "wild" altums and have had them tested in the manner you describe here? Have you tested them genetically to see how much the altums differ genetically from scalare?

Lastly, have any of those involved gotten past the initial step of having bred altums and have f1s that can be genetically tested.

Dave, my background is Biological Science and I use it everyday in my hobby. I am not questioning the science involved in your posts here..I understand it very very well, Though I don't think that at this point in time theres enough established "facts" to use genetics...latter for sure... How much latter? that depends on matters that you , I and all else here have no control of, IMO. Our role can only be to learn what it takes to breed them as that falls in our practical realm of experience, perhaps testing them after that if all necessary leg work has been done by the scientific community....which at this point it has not, IMO.

Hth,
al

[Apistomaster]

I think that Heiko Bleher's work as a collector, that of his taxonomic work, and that of his molecular geneticist consultants is putting us on the right track to be able to soon be able to be sure that we will know the difference whether we are breeding well defined true Heckels or just Heckel like phenotypes.

It is still a work in progress and for some time it will be a matter of subjective opinion whether not Heckels are being bred or just facsimiles. There really are non-heckels that by their appearance appear to be Heckels but are not in fact Heckels.

If the the fish are being bred that look like Heckels with relative ease, then those particular fish are going to remain to be suspect to me. Heckels, sensu stricto, are not easily bred.

I do think that Heiko's assertion than the S. discus has only been successfully bred a handful of times to date will prove to be true.
Molecular DNA work will eventually be able to distinguish differences that the eye can not regardless of whether the material is wild collected or aquarium specimens.

Reaching a consensus among aquarists will take time as we are an opinionated lot.

Larry Waybright

[brewmaster15]

Hi Larry,



There really are non-heckels that by their appearance appear to be Heckels but are not in fact Heckels. What proof is there of this?
I think if we make blanket statements like this, there should be proof, don't you?
Its generally accepted that genotype dictates phenotype . A heckel is a heckel because a heckel has the genes to make it look a heckel.



If the the fish are being bred that look like Heckels with relative ease, then those particular fish are going to remain to be suspect to me. Heckels, sensu stricto, are not easily bred. Thats a very subjective thing to say.,,If Mat breeds his heckels or I breed mine with ease...why does that mean they are probably not heckels?



Molecular DNA work will eventually be able to distinguish differences that the eye can not regardless of whether the material is wild collected or aquarium specimens. DNA and genetics is everywhere these days ..and everyone has come to use these phrases in everyday life...which is great... But The Amazon is an immense place, with many rivers.. and many populations...Its not like taking a swab from everyone in a small town and finding a killer... Its far more complex a scenario. I think DNA is a valuable tool but its only as good as its starting materials.

Take a swab of your mouth and send it to a ACME mail order lab and you too can know if your family lineage is.....who knows...maybe you have royalty in your blood.......TV and magazines make it sound so simple....It isn't like that at all.


jmo,
al

[raglanroad]

Al, I'm a bad records keeper and wish someone else would like to do that job. For your background information records, response to my club has been rather like this:

Scorned by one or two for maybe one day as "moot point". Nobody's breeding these but for Linke.

By day 3 or 10 or something we had the equivalent of a major leaguer in the discus world. We also have members from other countries than in NA. quite a few of our nicest fish are in Singapore.
We have a specialist in stunning domestic discus from there.
We don't see enough of pics and video or opinion, as most of the guys seem so humble and are focussed on producing beautiful planted tanks with fish that seem comfortable and gorgeous.

Lots of people joined and stated the fish they had or were hoping to get during the year I worked that end. Maybe 50. My pc has only been replaced this month and my paperwork is horrendous. I have to sharpen up if any of our members has spawns ! Meanwhile we have good knowledge of who has what, amongst us.
We know only that most of our fish are from Mark Denaro or Mark R or Oliver or Ruinemans, amazon Imports, and so on, and most exports are done through Colombia. So we have pet trade fish. Makes little difference whether from
Montreal or Frankfurt, as Ed would say.
Ed is a member too.

The purpose of the club was immediately altered to include one of scanning for evidence and authoritative opinions for support for the hobbyist having massive mortality going on.

Now that we have members with fish old enough to be considered well into spawning age, there had been mainly some pairing behaviours and not that much more.

As to getting Linke fish genetics done, that's certainly not on the front burner ! His fish were reportedly from near Puertoayacucho, as far as good translation from perhaps the broken local language used by Linke translations affords, so they are not altum anyway according to Heiko.

4 associates or members of the club claim spawnings, from the early 80's and early 90's.

as to numbers that adhere to my thinking, they probably number in the low zero's . :angel:

Al, as you indicate, the collection leg work for the modern analysis of specimens such as comparing holotype locale DNA ( as per Heiko's summations ) has not been covered much, to hobbyist knowledge, but it has been very well started already ! Because the work may take literally only a very few years or so to see results, we have to be patient I think and wait before I can say " This is a specimen of Pterophyllum altum" and by custom, use italics.

I am hoping Heiko elaborates on a couple of the difficulties with old previously collected specimens, in various regards.

Dave

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Dave,
Thats pretty much along the lines of what I thought.


As to getting Linke fish genetics done, that's certainly not on the front burner ! His fish were reportedly from near Puertoayacucho, as far as good translation from perhaps the broken local language used by Linke translations affords, so they are not altum anyway according to Heiko not being well versed in all the acceptible Altum sites...It seems to me that one should genetically compare the Linke "altums" to your wilds..If not anything else ...you can use it as negative standard should it not be a real "altum"


Where does your group stand on this area I was asking about?...

Have you identified the Type specimen that you will test against for your altums? who collected it and documented its locale beyound doubt? Where is this Specimen currently? and is it acceptably agreed on as a type specimen by the scientific community?


Have you or any of those involved actually given all this a dry run by obtaining genetic samples of the Linke Altums in question, as well as your own "wild" altums and have had them tested in the manner you describe here? Have you tested them genetically to see how much the altums differ genetically from scalare?

Thanks,
al

[raglanroad]

Thanks Dave,
Thats pretty much along the lines of what I thought.

not being well versed in all the acceptible Altum sites...It seems to me that one should genetically compare the Linke "altums" to your wilds..If not anything else ...you can use it as negative standard should it not be a real "altum"


Where does your group stand on this area I was asking about?...


Thanks,
al

No, Al. this is about non-inclusion. First we need the collection locale holotype DNA, then we compare other fish to what Heiko or any scientist shows to be fact.

It is up to the claimant ( Linke or anyone who cares to forward Linke fish as examples of anything) to do testing on them. If wealthier, I would still not go test Linke fish. There are more important fish to test : WILD FISH. Although Linke gives description of collection locale for his wild spawners. and is recognized as a collector qualified to supply scientific study, I believe. So I'd say his word and your certificates of ownership are your evidences in that case.

However, our group does not have an opinion that I am aware of. Should it have a group opinion ?

Al we will be seeing collections of multiple samples per species location if I understand method correctly.

Later Edit:Who will present such various holotype locale specimens for analysis ?
I wonder if Heiko might consider giving it more increased priority if we bug him ?

: ) I also would be most greatful if Heiko corrected me here or there on the misinterpretations or fallacies about this genetics and collecting subject that I have gathered so far.

This is a learning experience for me that can only be applied after I learn, so it's a work in progress. It's difficult for me to be too definite about "ruled out" when learning is still in progress, even as to terminology.

Dave

Edit: P.S.

Another astounding thing about the internet media is that lowly hobbyists with an idea and inquisitive nature can come into contact with the most accomplished specialists in the world. this is happening. Later Edit:To get real information direct is incredible. thank you for the opportunity provided, Al !

[brewmaster15]

Dave,
So to recap...basically.. There is no type specimen yet, and no one has tested any of your groups altums or linkes altums yet for what ever reason. .No one even knows what the genetic profile of an altum should be? or if the science is there to accurately distinguish a true "altum" ( "true altum" to be determined still?) from scalare or hybrid...

and yet.. this is the criteria that should be used to determine altums..or heckels as case here really is?

That in a nut shell is my problem with this whole line of reasoning. In theory it sounds like good science...In application its decades if ever from being a reality. Wish I could tell you otherwise...but I really think you are misleading yourselves if you think Genetics is going solve this mess in the next few years or anytime soon.

But thats just my opinion and we all entitled them.

take care,
al
BTW...I still think you should test Linkes instead of automatically ruling them out without a test...thats the scientific way to go at this. If you are going to genetically test fish...one more sample will not cost much more, yet the info could be extremely valuable.

[raglanroad]

Al,

Linke fish are of interest. they have not been ruled out as you suggest. they have been provisionally not included, by me, for use in club records as Pterophyllum altum if somebody breeds them. You may think that its wordplay or not but that's it. Not excluded. anyone who wants to use the club to present them as Pterophyllum altum associated with club membership other than who agrees wth that summation, can quit, kick me out, or keep the records themselves. I'll keep my own anyway. It's an arbitrary move, as most are in some way. I think the Linke altums are visibly different from wild Orinoco angelfish populations. JMO.

But I would think the most important is to establish what genetics are in wild fish : )

[brewmaster15]

Dave,

As to getting Linke fish genetics done, that's certainly not on the front burner ! His fish were reportedly from near Puertoayacucho, as far as good translation from perhaps the broken local language used by Linke translations affords, so they are not altum anyway according to Heiko.


ut I would think the most important is to establish what genetics are in wild fish : )



That sounds like ruling them out to me...but be that as it may...

take care,
al

[raglanroad]

Al, perhaps it is ruling them out of top position for expenditure of resources.
provisionally. : ) but not positively excluded from either being Pterophyllum altum or from being top priority for investigation at some later date. If they prove genetically that these originated from Pterophyllum altum only, then they would of course be top priority to study as to Linke's method. That's been done before by many though, by study of his book. The inside story (if there is more), such as the specifics of how the tank bred series was produced by which matings and so on I do not know.

[raglanroad]

Al, what would we have to compare Linke fish DNA with, if we do not pursue the wilds DNA info first ?

[brewmaster15]

Dave,


Al, what would we have to compare Linke fish DNA with, if we do not pursue the wilds DNA info first ?

You have roughly 50 members with wild altums, correct? A suggestion, by all means wait for your holotype type specimens to be collected and resolved by the science community... BUT

In the meanwhile... Start working!!! :) find a lab capable of what you are looking to do..thats going to take a good amount of time there... next find out from them how to collect the appropriate samples...and have everyone send in samples from their fish to a blinded recipient...Include Linkes samples as a control. Next try getting some universities to buy into the program and potentially bring in the funds to accomplish the goals.

With Altums from as many sources as you have...You need not wait to start your genetic testing. This is the validation part of the research protocol. Once this Data has been collected ...The genetic material will stay for years if stored properly.. and can be thus compared to whatever Type specimen agreed on down the road... Additionally it will tell you much in the ways of variation in your future breeding stock or about its homogenous attributes.

Additionally I would add a wild scalare and domestic scalare as negative controls.


If we were pursuing the same goals with the heckels...I would suggest we do the same...I'll leave that up to everyone here to decide.

Just some thoughts...

-al

[raglanroad]

thanks, Al. we're way ahead of ya !

We checked it out and realized why it's necessary to have biologist supervised collections. We might end up with flowerhorn cichlid samples mixed in once we are bottling our fish samples... and it's a job for trained people to document sampling of the wilds I believe.

Meanwhile we go forward and feed the stubborn fish. I think we are concentrating mostly now on how to bring them into better condition. Al, ever seen a fat, boxy Orinoco angelfish ? Mostly lean and muscular looking, the best have a nice smooth round flank. but not too many fatties ! Often we discuss various members experience with foods and nutritional aspects of foods to attempt boosting of the fishes' condition. We aren't looking for fat fish, but we are thinking of supplying some heavy gorging periods with lots of live food if the fish have the appetite for it. In conjunction, we are checking out and thinking and trying the best methods for deparasitizing and so on to maximize potential.

I'll try to get the quick little primer on the subject of samples of tissue and rough costs for analysis that I had received. Some practical considerations: we have no fees or dues or sponsorship.

A three-species study is in the works already by the professionals as far as I know. Patience is our friend in this case.

[raglanroad]

Al, just something from 66north found in this link , for a better picture about a couple of items. I think some info on a couple of Larry's points may be found here. Also you can see from the bottom link that we have already begun investigation as you suggest !

LATER EDIT: link supplied instead of quote
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=97151&start=0

[brewmaster15]

Dave,

Thats an interesting write up, what exactly was the question oir questions you asked him?:confused:

also.. Does 66north have a name?:D

Thanks,
-al

[raglanroad]

I think he's a member here Al. He has discus from Barb. We'll try to dial him in.

I asked if it is found that all Orinoco angelfish are eventually DNA pegged to be one and the same species, what possible argument could be forwarded to suggest any separation. I wanted to know if any reproductive or any type of isolation theory would suffice to knock DNA evidence out of the prime spot for consideration.

this was from our discussion with Heiko on Cichlid Forum last year. I had my first stage of grieving there..denial. : )

also, I was asking about the feasiblilty of sending samples of our fish for testing. I got an answer somewhere in my pc.

Our discussion was short but enlightening with Heiko, Ed, Larry, Jan ( who gets us some local scoop on taxonomy news from Europe), Phill Austen, 66 and more.

[ShinShin]

Larry,

You continually post information that appears you have adapted to fit the thinking you subscribe to. As well said as some of it appears to be, it is just that - a well thought out "thought" and has no scientific evidence backing it up. You are demanding scientific evidence while supporting your arguement with, at best, anecdotal information, and more likely, just opinion. It is highly unlikely there are that many nonHeckel "Heckels" that appear to be Heckels out there. Most will have traits of the blues they have hybridized with as well.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

ShinShin/Larry,

You said you had a copy of Aqualog SA Cichlids IV, right?
There are 5 or 6 pages in Goebel's book of non Heckel Heckel look-a-likes.
And yes some of the fish shown show some non-Heckel attributes. Some do not.
In any case such specimens are very rare in the wild and in captivity. Why would I be expected to pull examples out from under a log from a slough of the Snake River in Eastern Washington State?

Neither you or I are really in a position to do the validated DNA work Heiko Bleher has done and is continuing to do. One can choose to believe him or not about the issues concerning Heckel Hybridizations not being viable.
Neither of us have collected wild discus for forty years nor provided Dr Eduard Schmidt-Focke, who did much of the early work with hybridization using the finest of the fine that Heiko provided him.

All I think I have asked is that for anyone making contemporary claims of success provide contemporary proof. Documentation by modern digital photos of actual archetypical Heckels spawning with a non-Heckels, subsequent photos of the pair(s) caring for their young and subsequent photos of the actual hybrids breeding and raising the fry and on down the line should not be hard to provide.

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying it is that it is up to me to disprove the null hypothesis(the negative). That is a logical impossibility and frankly, ridiculous to propose.

To be sure, if I ever have a HeckelXHeckel or HeckelXnon-Heckel spawn I will document the hell out of it.

Larry Waybright

[yogi]

I cannot take credit for this line, because someone posted it on a general forum where discus DNA was being discussed. I'm getting kind of discus-ed out anyway. I find the personalities of discus keepers a lot more interesting.

[ShinShin]

Larry,

You were provided this information in the form of several books, and forums. There are pictures supplied by Jerry of at least one of his Heckels spawning with a wild discus, as did Alberto right here on Simply.


Anyway, this thread is getting too time consuming. My Heckels might have spawned and I missed it. ;)

Mat

[Apistomaster]

I missed the part where they raised their fry.

I understand. just simplydiscus.

The details come out slowly

They are tedious

Heckels are hard

Never simple

Larry Waybright

[raglanroad]

this is the kind of discussion we can look back on next year or in 2 years and see how our viewpoints have changed.
I can only imagine how humorous our primitive wrestling with the subject would appear to somebody who is more experienced. : )

We can see, however, that everything has to be done anew and done right for Pterophyllum.

On the same Cichlid Forum link Heiko explains about some of the problems with the old specimens.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=97151&start=0

[Apistomaster]

I agree. We are really at a very early stage in THe Heckel Project and we all want to learn as much as we can but it will take some time to sort things out so we share a common ground when more facts be come known, shared and accepted,

I will keep an open mind and along with my fellow Heckel admirers and hopefully someday breeders continue to share my experiences and any discoveries I might make with my group of potential breeding stock.

They have been going through a period of rapid growth, increased courtship behaviors and more color development. All in all encouraging signs.

I will be trying harder to be less confrontational and as collaborative as possible with everyone involved or interested in this project.

What we need are some wild Heckel spawns and fry bred right here in the West to show that we can do it and share how we did it.
Let the scientists sort out the definitions and descriptions of the speicies.
Few of us are in a position to do that kind of work but we can do the practical aquaristics work.

Larry Waybright

[raglanroad]

Jan is trying to join the discussions, but is having some trouble though he got registered.

[brewmaster15]

New accounts need to be approved..I just approved his.

hth,
al

[Apistomaster]

Hi all,

Jan joining in is great news. Not only is he an incredibly talented aquarist but he brings to any group the latest news from Eastern Europe where they crank out many of the rare Apistogramma species being imported into North America. There is a very active and productive bunch of aquarists in the Czech Republic. They seem to be able to breed anything they can get their hands on.
The most remarkable thing that has struck me is just how routinely they do this sort of thing. Their list of no success is much shorter than their list of success. I have not discussed discus with him very much. Mainly the dwarf pike cichlids and SA Dwarf Cichlids which are of great interest to me.
Larry W.

[raglanroad]

Guys, I wonder if we could discuss some more about the geographical distribution of membership of the Altum Breeders' Club for a minute ? the topic was opened in this thread.

membership appears to be
We have Singapore, N.America, England, Continental European membership, and
contacts from Japan, Mexico and other countries.

But we had not been in contact with the people living in those countries where the fish are from. Increasingly English becomes more dominant in science write-ups, but for us it would be great to have more contacts with hobbyists and students in S.America.

Seems Spanish would be an asset.

Ed , could you give any suggestions on how to get more connected with S.A. on a hobby level or news. like the catfish news. maybe some journals suggestions, forums* or whatever ?

* No P.B. allowed ? : (

Dave

[raglanroad]

and another thing... :p

you know how on youtube or other sites there is "tagging"? this would be a very useful tool I think.

D

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave,
I know this thread has wobbled back and forth between Heckels and Altums... but maybe we ought to split the two out here ? That altums did get discussed in here is understandable given the parallels between the two.....but it makes for some difficult reading I am sure..

My suggestion is to start a new thread in the Amazon section. Describe your altum group and its goals, issues , etc... I'll sticky the thread when you are done.

thanks,
al

[raglanroad]

actually I'm done on that Al.

was attempting to tie into suggestions of how to get more heckel and S.A. information for projects or hobby interests re: this thread's contents.

Edit: the offer for the sticky thread...I could maybe do something more oriented to our interest rather than club related.

[watermillman]

Hi friends, I´m here

let me any just little moments to my engaging with some threads, please.
And I´ll be bring any of my thoughts and regards here.

Thanks too much to Dave for your helping and to ářčáářbrewmaster15
also too much.

Now I want show you one fish from group, who came from Brasilia (I don´t know from how Brasil´s marketer) in 8.1.07 to CR - to my best importer - it is really "Heckel" ? Excuse me please for quality of my picture, I´m beginner with my camera, which I have only three weeks now.

Jan

[raglanroad]

Now I want show you one fish from group, who came from Brasilia (I don´t know from how Brasil´s marketer) in 8.1.07 to CR - to my best importer - it is really "Heckel" ?
JanHi Jan.
that's the million dollar question : )
dave

[watermillman]

Yes,
to my first reply in "communication thread" I was wrote, that discuses have too much communal questions with angels, they really have. By us I was began communication with members of our discus club from Prague (you know that they make this year third international championship in Prague?).

Heiko is man, who I honor for his knowledges but if we have too much questions with our fishes (here I think Pterophyllum genus), we all - scientists, professional breeders and hobbysts too must see only last valid revision. Last valid revision were made from Kullander in 1986! What it´s valid all wild and serious conjectures, if nor all about DNA tests not whole ended now?
I red, that French scientists found on ending in last year, that bringer for genetis informations are RNK also. What we know, what all is possible here? What new will be find in next times? And if I remember, we were talked last year, why Kullander don´t make new revision by Pterophyllums over DNA tests. Anybody (I think Alec?) was called him and he said him that he haven´t all good samples for it. Really? And after what he made his last revision in 1986? This revision is only one valid to this time and we must with good and bad take all only from it!
Absolutely all things, what we are saying between us about all are only our conjectures! Absolutely all!
If I take all, what I wrote up here, I must say, that we have only one altums now - from upper Orinoco areal. In my eyes with my rigorously survey on pictures and any fishes from Linke´s linie and any fishes from import to CR, I see everywhere same fishes in my eyes - if I don´t found any overt differences, I say that they are all altums for me. If want anybody say anything different, he must prove to me with his science serious work. It´s my own result.
Yes, I´m believe to Heiko´s modern thesis, but till I haven´t any serious evidences, I must take only old works.

In autumn ´06 I was four days from morning to evening with H.Linke in Prague´s championship. If he know english so same as I´m know deutsch, we must took our friend dr. Bydžovský for translator between us. I was ask Mr. Linke, where he catched his altums and he was answer me, that it were in beginning of ´90´s in upper Orinoco areal. If have anybody serious evidence, that Linke´s fishes aren´t same as Atabapo´s altums, so we must have two species now.
Linke was catched them near by San Fernando de Atabapo, Kay Andersen from Danmark also (he was there with his friend from Sweden also in beginning of 90´s, and he was catched fishes also for Kullander there).
By us were took from H.Linke his F1 fishes any breeders. Two from they are my good friends and perfect breeders - L.Dušek and J. Haidinger. Only J.Haidinger had from two spawns any good youngs, but he was very very dazzled from his success, that he forget his professional humility and his parental fishes were died. Now he´s waiting, same as another of my friends who were took young fishes from Haidinger´s spawns, to new fishes will be grown to spawns. L.Dušek have old fishes yet, but without any spawns.

On my picture here (photo by Radek Blaško in Prague´s championship) is one fish from Haidinger´s spawn - F2 by Linke´s line)

Jan

[raglanroad]

well said, Jan !
to me it is not so important about the details of where the geographic boundaries lie with the species, but that the system is in need of updating.

It seems to me that it even entails breaking some historical continuity with the old specimens or names.


Dave

[watermillman]

With DNA test, if it will be show as right and only really method, we can waiting by Pterophyllum genus , that after scientists have been sufficiency various suplements, two ways.
First from these ways is more valid species not only with angels, but by discuses also. Is possible, that we have be three species (Pt.altum, leopoldi, scalare) what we know now and other new (for example from Pt.sp. "Peru altum", Pt.sp. "Rio Negro", and others...).
And in second case is possible, that we will have be only one valid specie with any local forms.

I have one question to friends from discuses. How much were used DNA method with describing by S.tarzoo ?

Jan

[Apistomaster]

Hello Jan,
Such pleasure to welcome you here from me.
I hope you can describe any aquaristics activities happening in CR to us here.
Maybe some there have had success with Heckels, yes?
Your photo of Heckel appears to me a typical Heckel as we here know them.
Perhaps you start a new thread here about happenings there?
This thread has much disorganised trains of thought. Multiple issues, much talk of multiple genera of Cichilds Pterophyllum and Symphysodon needs separation to easier follow reasoning and topics.
I value your contributions and thoughts and am very happy to have your participations here.
Larry Waybright

[watermillman]

Hi Larry,

thank you for welcome. I know not only members from "Czech discus club", but any professional other breeders of discus fishes also. I ask them all, if in CR are any breeders, who make spawned really Heckel. They all give me same answer, no, not spawned this fishes by us every times still.
Nobody from these my knowns haven´t home really Heckel fishes, they all have green, blue and red discuses and various new modern and old forms also. They all spawn these all fishes fine, but if anybody from them had at his home any Heckel fishes, he was broken down on this problem his teeth.

Larry, I don´t know, if I will be valid member here. I haven´t any experiences with discuses.... Yes, but on the other side every fish is same only one fish, OK? Too much principles between angels and discuses are same, too much ideas can be same.;)

Jan

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jan,
Welcome again to our forum!:)

You had a question..

I have one question to friends from discuses. How much were used DNA method with describing by S.tarzoo ? apparently much was done in this study with DNA.

You can read on it here..
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1145
from it...

The discoveries were made following a study of the colour pattern, morphology and mitochondrial DNA of large numbers of Symphysodon collected from the length of the Amazon river.

Unfortunately I have not gotten a copy of the actual paper...


Ready JS, Ferreira EJG and SO Kullander (2006) - Discus fishes: mitochondrial evidence for a phylogeographic barrier in the Amazonian genus Symphysodon (Teleostei: Cichlidae). Journal of Fish Biology (2006) 69 (Supplement B), 200-211. but I greatly desire to read it at length.

Hth,
al

[Apistomaster]

Jan,

You have already made an important contribution.

That Czech discus breeders have been unable to breed Heckel Discus is valuable supporting evidence that this species of discus is very difficult to breed despite efforts made by expert aquarists of your knowledge.

I hoped you would have been able to say they have been sucessful.

This discus species does not yield it's secrets readily.

Larry W.

[raglanroad]

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1095-8649.2006.01232.x
$39 U.S. for the cause, Al : ) how does Simply feel about contributing? just joking Maestro : ) but seriously, literature in this vein would be a worthy project.

tarzoo smells fishy. anyone else think so ?

it gives the neotype an already mixed-up name of a lost specimen said to have been found long ago in Leticia in an aquarium...for some reason that strikes me as retrograde progress.

[raglanroad]

it's Wiki, but what the heck. anything for the faith.


The procedures for the designation of a new type specimen when the original is lost come into play for some recent, high-profile species descriptions in which the specimen designated as the holotype was a living individual that was allowed to remain in the wild (e.g.,[3]). In such a case, there is no actual type specimen available for study, and the possibility exists that - should there be any perceived ambiguity in the identity of the species - subsequent authors can invoke various clauses in the ICZN Code that allow for the designation of a neotype. Remarkably, the Code explicitly states that the designation of a neotype must be based upon an actual physical specimen that is "the property of a recognized scientific or educational institution", but there is no such requirement for a holotype.

:angel:

as for the Axelrod specimens with no date, and others, I'm pretty sure they can be trusted.
but then again, I bought a Stradivarius once....

[raglanroad]

Jan,
On the link I gave earlier it shows the email address of Mr. Ready.

As Mr. Bleher's work is also mentioned, it would be wonderful to sit down here and have conversation with both of them, wouldn't it ?
Dave

there are several means to see more information, even if other sites have it for rent. you might be able tofind more by yahoo search for the biographies of the research people and so find their works.

I haven't checked this one out much yet
http://www.calacademy.org/research/ichthyology/catalog/fishcatmain.asp

[Apistomaster]

I have long since disregarded anything written about tropical fish by owners of Strad's who own book publishing companies.
Larry W.

[raglanroad]

but I don't own any publishing companies...just the strad

however, I do own a t.v. station

BTW, that's not my clip, of course. Rusty is in there fishing.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Cichllids

Larry, it's hard to say for sure without the full report and even then it's not easy.
Could be just a name that could have been as well avoided.
Or it might be case of a study of a target based on outdated information, or some other scenario. Or maybe there's a very good reason behind taking this route.
But if we have to compare science that includes using questioned capture locale, or even non-existent samples, to science that involves modern collection and fresh start with an overview that makes sense, I personally prefer to see the modern version as more interesting, whether it comes to us peer reviewed or not.
D
That's my bias.based on the dichotomy I see from the outside.

[jt20194]

This is my first post. So I have read this thread and decided that I would post some pics of my “Heckels” to see what everyone believes they are. I have had discus on and off since 1964. Like everyone on the Heckel thread I love these fish and would like very much to have them breed. The pictures I posted are of the first two Heckels I bought in Dec 2006 form Tropical Fish World in Gaithersburg, MD a great LFS that imported these wilds. They were photographed in the first week of Jan about one week after purchasing them. I had some domesticated discus but traded those in for two more of the wilds and now have a total of 4 wild Heckels. All are doing great and two have shown some signs of pairing which is great to watch especially since their head and tail colors get so dark when they dance with each other. It may lead to nothing but I’ll enjoy them regardless. I’ll take some pictures tonight of all of them and hopefully can catch them in the act of spreading their fins and facing each other to share with the forum…

Now the question, I feel certain that these are wild Heckels and wanted to see what everyone else thought that have been engaged in this interesting thread.

Jim

http://www.taylorsclan.com/images/FISH1080/Heckel 1.jpg

http://www.taylorsclan.com/images/FISH1080/Heckel 2.jpg

[raglanroad]

Hi Jim.
Just saying welcome, and they're beautiful fish. The discus people should be back soon.
Dave

[Apistomaster]

Hi Jim,
I don't think anyone would doubt that you have fine examples of heathy classic Syphysodon discus. I have two "pair" that have been doing the courtesy s associatd with courtship as well as the sooting of the clear fins that goes along with interest in or actual breeding discus.

Dave,
I have to agree with you about the "modern" approach being acceptable since the situation with actual holotypes is so questionable. I'm not against a standard that can eventually be agreed upon however we have get there.

Your Heckel photos also show the dark ring that some only associate with the other species of discus. I have two I suspect are dominant females that show this dark ring to the same degree on one and a greater degree on the other. Sure it is not exactly the same as that of most green discus but it is proof that it does form part of the color palette of wild Heckel Discus, too. IMO it is only seen on very healthy Heckels with some interest in pairing and at this point I lean towards believing this is a female thing. Time will tell.

[watermillman]

Hi friends,

now I say to you one of our special with aquaristic alchemy. All from you are know, that Southamerican (and W.Afr & S.As.) "blackwater" fishes need soft water. Too much from our breeders were broken their teeth their works with demineralization columns and osmosis.
If we had bad forty years from "Second world war" - our socialistic totality, we cann´t going out of republic to all world as free man. Too much our aquarists made too much trips to nature in their free time after official work on hobby. By us were problems with all spectrum of all and demineralization columns had only several of us. If anybody of us was gained any blackwater fish from nature, we were shall go found good soft water for them in our nature. In 50. years were began old aquarists found forest springs and examined water from small forest ponds and brooks. Too much of us had and have their own water wells in our houses and we all, who prefered blackwater fishes, have our successes only with waters from natural sources.
With first generations by blackwater fishes nobody had good results with "induced" water from municipal waterworks or from columns and other destilation instruments.
Those aquarists, who make small characids or barbs in million pieces were need their system with water from columns mixed with small few water from official mineral water springs from our official market sector. But their generation fishes must be full domesticated in our conditions in any generations.
I know any forests springs maximum to 100 km from my home and I have good 25 l barrels for one m3 few of water. I´m going for any good soft water with my car if I need - so every over two to four weeks and I have my lovely spring so 60 km from home now. In this water I made all wild dwarf cichlids, bettas and other fishes. To that spring are going too much breeders, who make discuses also.
Is one very interesting fenomen by us. If I gain any interesting rare fish from nature, they not spawn in same values in hardness water, how they had at home, but they spawned in more hardest water by us. If I take fish, which were lived home in water so 15 - 30 micro Siemens, they are living in water with same parameters very good, but not spawning they. If I give them water between 80 - 120 micro Siemens, they in water from "my spring" are spawning very glad.
Yes, I give them also any humins extract (I´m using professional extract which is produced from brown coal and wood´s pulp) how ground and I´m encoring there
further natural products for more tanins. After more than fifteen years, what I´m making blackwater fishes I have my own recipes. Over year I´m going to nature and collecting there any leafs, flowers, etc.
My resume for it all is, that waters from destillation machines and "clear" waters from municipal waterworks are dead waters. Fishes prefering water from nature sources.
Jan Haidinger, who made Linke´s line altums have his own good water well and he is one from our discus breeders also.

Jan

[raglanroad]

hey folks,
just talked to 66 and he's got some really interesting things to let us in on.
right up our alley !
writing to J Ready now.

[Apistomaster]

When I was still living on the rainy Westside of the Cascade Mountain range near Seattle, WA, I also would seek out natural small springs or streams draining peatbog swamps or lakes with natural soft acid blackwater and found greater success with that water than I did from manufactured blackwater using RO/DI as the basis.

There is an intangible quality to "live water" as Jan describes it that tropical fish are responsive to.
I was not keeping discus at that particular time but rather SA Characins and the African Congo Tetras mostly. I would have more successful hatchings of their eggs in this live water than manufactured despite similar test readings.
Using this water I had my most successful spawn of Mikrogeophagus ramerizi.
From one pair of the Gold variety I had the pair spawn and care for their fry.
The total number of resulting fry was very close to 400. A feat never duplicated by me since.
There are no such sources of water where I live now on the edge of the Columbian Plateau, the largest continous lava flow in North America if not the world. All the natural water here is hard and alkaline. My city water is among the softest available in my region and comes from several deep wells. The pH is 7.4 and total hardness is 110mg/l. Across the border in sister city Lewiston, Idaho they process suface water from the rivers and have same pH but 240ppm/l total hardness.
With only an average annual rainfall of barely 18 inches, the only option available now is RO/DI processed water altered by peat filteration and some minerals for successful hatching of soft water Characin eggs and species from similar conditions such as Betta coccina, Apistogramma nissenji and Dicrossus filamentosus. Heckel Discus live well in this tapwater but I don't think their eggs or even spawning will occur in it. However other wild discus spawn and hatch without problems for me.

[raglanroad]

the barcode system blog: http://phe.rockefeller.edu/barcode/

Paul Hebert:http://www.uoguelph.ca/ib/faculty/faculty_hebert.shtml

how to: http://www.barcodinglife.com/views/login.php

[raglanroad]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070218/sc_livescience/freakynewbatsfoundbydnabarcoding


hand held scanners...I'll wait for these while the scientists grab the wilds DNA info. now I don't have to core drill my altums : )

Dave

[raglanroad]

Jan, 66 has forwarded the Ready Ferreira Kullander et al. study...I'll try to send it to you
Dave

[Apistomaster]

Dave,
That last link is very interesting. Imagine the day when all one would need is a scanner and maybe a PC to identify known species and tell when a new one has been encountered.
I can see this becoming a reality within 50 years.
Larry Waybright

[raglanroad]

It's right around the corner now ! They say in seven years collectors should be having the scanners. Right now we're talking 5-10 bucks per sample. Not necessary to do the Maury show thing. heheheh

Al wrote:

Take a swab of your mouth and send it to a ACME mail order lab and you too can know if your family lineage is.....who knows...maybe you have royalty in your blood.......TV and magazines make it sound so simple....It isn't like that at all.

Like wise by your definition , I guess I better have all my heckels I now possess genetically tested to prove that they are indeed "pure"? heckels and not some natural hybrid. Now that'll cost me a pretty penny. As I did not collect, but purchased thru shippers. Someone please let me know where I can find a lab that is willing to test my fish against a type specimen?
University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada.

66north wrote:

we have a lab at Guelph that's doing what you would call DNA barcoding. Basically they are using a small highly variable segment of mtDNA to identify species (which I think is a bit questionable) and they charge something like 5-10 bucks a sample. get a hundred dollars together along with some samples from known locals and problem maybe not solved but a heck of a lot more known in probably less than two weeks. Yeah it sounds so simple, but I know how it works.


http://www.theothernews.com/article.asp?dept=9&category=61&article=1321

[raglanroad]

The Altum Breeders' Club account has been opened at BOLD for our specimen samples. Dig out your Freezie Pops, guys.

[raglanroad]

this stuff is amazing. check out the tutorials. they do everything for you ! create trees, organize images, compare DNA sequences . it's like a DNA multimedia player. security is good, and you can allow access to any member, limited or unlimited access.

TWO THUMBS UP !

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave,
Unless I am wrong, I think in order for the technology to work here, they still need a code to compare the bar code of the samples you send in....so you still need that type specimen from the wild as a reference.

I Understand the science behind it well. Its a young technology in application though, and to be honest, for as much potential it has...many feel that it may have its problems too. Time will tell how accurate it will prove itself.

From the Links you posted.... This referenced one....
http://phe.rockefeller.edu/barcode/docs/ScienceNews_Dec4th_2004.pdf

Raises some concerns that unfortunately may be applicable to the wild discus forms , possibly to your altums....particularly the concerns on the potential to not be specific enough to tell apart hybrids and recently diverged species.

In any case, At The price of what they are charging it sounds well worth it for the trial...but I would at this point accept the results cautiously. Do you know the source of specimen that they have cataloged from the wild for your altums and scalare?

I look forward to seeing what they come up with though:)

-al

[raglanroad]

Al, there are no entries for any angels. So any one of us can be the first in the world, if we apply as loose standards as some recent reviews have.
I notice also for discus, tarzoo is not existent.

As to any problems over determination using this system, it's a fact to me that all these tests provide only differing views of the reality, never reality. And the different tests and analyses can be used to examine different aspects such as the more ancient time frame or more recent, historically.

We still need wilds genetics to compare to. I wonder if any of the already completed studies contain info on the fragment in question. In any case. we need the wild DNA.

But it does seem possible very soon to determine if scalare has been mixed in with tank bred altum. That is of prime importance. No fraud for the base breeding stock. Suppose it turns out that the majority of those involved agree that Pterophyllum is only one species. Then we still are interested in the variant or the subspecies or population that we know as altum, as well as Heiko's altum, not those other seemingly much easier-to-breed fish !

Others can turn out combtails or pearlscale hybrids, no problem. I think that breeders would always need a base stock to work from and to go back to sometimes..
D

[raglanroad]

For the meantime, until a responsibly collected DNA sampling is done for altum, we can be satisfied at one level by testing any altum from reliable sources such Oliver's or your own imports, Al.

It might not be an answer to finer degree questions, but it will be very interesting. At least then we can compare against scalare and leopoldi, and eventually against altum from the holotype locale.

I can also imagine a surprise if amongst our own altumish fish we have, let's say, 3 or 4 species !

D

[fusQer]

hey guys i recently acquired 5 4" wild heckels (rio negro), not necessarily intending to breed them but just because i like the way they look. but after seeing these threads i would love to contribute to any breeding research. is there some post somewhere or a url somewhere documenting what has been tried or what hasnt? mine are in a 29g barebottom right now in RO water 4-5 degrees GH, all sides of the tank are painted but the front and i have some black water extract but i havent put that in yet. the fish eat voraciously, right out of my hand too.

[Apistomaster]

fusquer,
It is that lack of "How toBreed Heckels" that we are trying to resolve.

Really only a few references and photos in the literature but not much in the way of an expose' article with photos explaining all that went into doing the deed.

Most of what we know boils down to three things.
1. They spawn like other discus.
2. A large soft acid blackwater setup is indicated by the obsrvations made in the wild
3, They are extremely difficult to induce breeding in captivity.