Quarintine of heckels

[David Urban]

Colud you help me with any link about heckels quarentine?
Or tell me if what Iam doing is right

Aquarium of 25 gallons for 5 heckels and one alenquer
20% water changes daily with reverse osmosis
live food
No Light
Filter fluval 205
I hope for your help

Regards

[Apistomaster]

Hi David,
I can tell you my method for quarantining Heckels. Brewmaster15, Salvo and myself are the ones who established the Heckel Project.
1. Recieve them in a tank of water matching the conditions in the wild. pH 5.0 10-20ppm/l hardness and peat filtered. Blackwater additives are not equivalent.
2. Initial temps are higher than for normal normal maintainance, 88F.
3. I use live blackworms as the initial first food. They are usually in need of a great deal of acclimation when first received and they always accept live blackworms. I continue to maintain this regime for at least 1 month.
4. I change one half their water twice a week. Use the same water parameters.
5. Begin indroducing other food in small amounts along with the live worms. A 2 inch diameter PVC end cap makes a good food container when placed on the bottom. I add far more worms than they can eat immediately so that they are able to graze as they wish.
6. At six weeks I begin to bring the temperature down to 82-84dF.
7. At this time I begin substituting some of the replacement water changes with some of my tapwater. This is a matter of style. Continued use of the previously decribed water is probably best but it is here that I deviate from the best advice. My Heckels are very heatlthy but once I begin to try breeding I will revert back to water simlar to their native waters.
8. Decrease the worms as they begin to accept pelleted food well. At that time I begin soaking the pellet foods in vermifuge drugs for the next two months, one feeding of drugged food per day for the next 6-8 weeks. I cut that back to one week every three months there after.

This is just a quick overview of what I do. It is not meant that this is the only way to procede. Ask if there is anything else I can clarify.

Larry Waybright

[mandisc]

hi larry, i think ur method shld work. i shld hv known tis forum when i bought my first heckels , but tat is history. i bought 15pc of 2.5" wild heckels 3months ago but killed 14 of them tru my stupidity. now only one survived and it's now abt 3.5"-4". i love her v much n hope it will grow tru adulthood. tks larry for ur info. maybe i'll get some again in the near future n try ur methods.

[mandisc]

the one tat survived ........photo taken last dec06 .

[Apistomaster]

I am sorry for your serious loses. Even if my method is not perfect it would have save all of those fish that had any chance of survival. There will always be a few that have passed the point where they can be saved but as I have said several times before, the Heckel Discus is remarkably resilient fish, given half a chance.

Out of 15 young fish (the most adaptable) You might have not lost any or at most a couple.

I did not arrive at my present level of experience without some set backs but I have never lost any wild discus that were not essentially doomed before I received them. I lost one such fish out of 12 I ordered and am presently raising and now have 10. One Heckel did die and one was a wild blue sold as a Heckel that happened to have a bold center stripe. That one has been placed with other discus leaving my group of ten Heckels.

I can imagine it could take you awhile to recover from this big of a setback but next time I would advice the following:

Buy several smaller groups, accilmate each one in succession, to limit your losses and to learn from your experiences.

Larry Waybright

[mandisc]

tks again larry............just wondering is there anyone who would ship those wonderful wilds to Singapore from USA or direct frm the Amazon at a reasonable price n quality n quantity? after a few discussion my good friend n i would love to have them.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Mandisc,

There must be some company directly importing to Singapore as Sigapore has long be a major discus breeding center and the breeders have incorporated wild stocks into their breeding programs from time to time.

I suspect there is at least one major discus cluc organized in Singapore. They have hosted Aquarama Discus shows on a periodic basis. Someone is surely "in the know" as to where you can find wild discus.

Unless your water chemistry is altered in the purification process you may already have nearly ideal water conditions. Perhaps you could test your water and share the results with us?

I believe that live foods are readily available in your location which is a big help when acclimating wild caught discus.

Larry W

[mandisc]

hi larry, as i'v mentioned in one of the buy n sell thread before, in asia good quality wilds are sent to japan/taiwan n hong kong.generally the rest of asia received the so call 'b' grade. yes there are a few regular importer who import wild discus but the discus never seems to impress. moreover nowadays only wild spotted green are being cross bred due to the 'demand for good spotted' ofspring.
lately it is well discuss amongst hobbyist and breeders that the chlorine level is v.high here in singapore and the ph is about 7-7.5 .
live foods are basically aplenty here so the food source is not a problem.
but i'm just wondering 'if' there is any exporter in the USA that deals and import discus(preferably heckels)directly from the AMAZON or transit them to asia (singapore)???

[Apistomaster]

Other than Heckels we in the USA apparently tend to also get what you call "B grade" for the very same reason. The Japanese market is willing to pay premium prices for premium wild discus.
I think it would be both very difficult and extremely expensive for an individual to engineer a shipment of Heckels from the USA to Singapore.
Your best chance might be to cultivate a relationship with a major retail shop or somehow a local importer to aquire some Heckels.

If that route is not productive I would work with the nicest wild greens you can find in Singapore. They are a very worthy discus and have great beauty.
They are easier to breed but that is not to say that they are easy. They would present many of the same challenges but with greater chance of success.

Another thing about green discus is that any two wild green discus have the potential to produce some grade A progeny. Only a about 1% of all caught wild are the grade A but all wild greens carry the genes to produce them.
It does become a rather large project to get there and a large amount of time.
I am myself a fancier of the green discus. It is only due to my limited space that I am not currently working with them as well.
Larry

[mandisc]

thanks again larry, i knew some of our local importer who import wilds occasionally. maybe i'll save enough$$$$ so as i could make an offer to them to import premium grade discus . for now it'll be work,work n more work for me .lol

[Apistomaster]

If you are fortunate enough to get Heckels again as young as your first ill fated group you will find they will all be pretty much identical in appearance.

As they begin to mature, a couple will shine brighter than the rest and tend to be the dominant fish.

[David Urban]

Thank for your answer Larry, I am doing the thing tha you say except black Worms because in Mexico, nobody sell it, I can use frozen blood worms instead of.
Regards
David Urban

[puertoayacucho]

Hi Larry. just gave a quick reading through this thread... you know I like the quarantine issue, we might go into it deeper later. But I noticed David mentions he's keeping 6 discus (think I missed the size) in a 25g. Even if they were small juvies David you'd better get running out to the petshop for a considerably larger tank. Personally, I'd go for at least a 90 so your fish can grow out nicely and supposing you're going to stick to that number of discus. Not that you can't keep more fish in such a tank, but this proportion of about 15 gallons per adult discus will make your life easier on the long run. The more gallons you make available per fish, the better (this regarding wild caught fish and in general). Here in Utah, I know a discus keeper (Utah Discus - owner "Eddy"), he keeps and sells Asian discus and it is impressive to see how many fish this man can keep per tank (and keep them healthy), but it's a matter of the work he puts in to keep those tanks in really clean condition and the resistance that asian breeding programs have managed to build into their strains... so a note here... there is a great difference between keeping today's domesticated asian strains and (on the other hand) wild discus, and as far as my experience with heckel's goes, it would be "irrespectful to ask them" to think of accepting any form of crumping in their residence.

And then, we have the matter of quarantine and whether or not the heckel keeper believes in profilatic treatments or goes by the school of no treatment if the fish looks healthy.

Ed

[Apistomaster]

Hi Ed,
A warm welcome to simplydiscus.
Your insights and expertise I respect a great deal as you are aware. I look forward to your contributions as your time allows.

Dave is an iconoclast easily my equal. I am growing up six domestic discus in only a 29 gallon. Of course I have to change a lot of water to keep them happy but they are nearing the pairing off stage which will allow a reduction in their numbers in the small tank. I don't much care about them compaired to my wild fish despite their beauty. They are so much more tolerant of less than perfection that they have actually done well. It is the first time I have ever tried to grow 6 discus to adulthood in only a 29 gallon tank.
Domestic discus are my "guppies".
Larry W.

[David Urban]

Hi Ed is only for querentine, they wil have their own 100 gallons tank with other three wild discus
Saludos from Mexico

[puertoayacucho]

Hi Dave, Larry...
I was just worried about the actual size of the fish vs. water volume and growth. If we're talking plain quarantine for some smaller juvies, of course it works, now growing out several adult discus, less yet heckels, in a 29... I'll say, stage left! 100g for David, that's more like me.

Ed

[puertoayacucho]

I wonder what are the general thoughts here regarding profilactics? That is, preventive treatment. Or would you oppose treating a wild caught cichlid unless it shows symptoms of some kind?

Ed

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ed,

I prophylactically treat all my fish for external parasites and worms. I do not prophylactically treat for bacterias. This is done when first received and not periodically.

-al

ps.. welcome to SimplyDiscus!:)

[puertoayacucho]

Hi Ed,

I prophylactically treat all my fish for external parasites and worms. I do not prophylactically treat for bacterias. This is done when first received and not periodically.

-al

ps.. welcome to SimplyDiscus!:)

Hi Brew (is it Al?),

I wish everyone would do the same. I read a lot of hobbyists wanting to not treat their fish because it is too stressing and saying that they don't see the need to do so if the fish look healthy.
I can attest that no matter how healthy our wild caught discus may look (and this goes for most neotropical cichlids, but more emphatically for discus, angels, uarus and heroines in general), their GI parasites will sooner or later bring serious problems. I lost wild and domestic discus (the latter specially when in contact with wilds) by the dozens - if not 100's until I began to treat prophylactically upon the fish settling in.
I feel it's not an option but a must.

Ed

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ed,
Al or Brew is fine.:)

To treat or not is everyones call, but for me...One of the main problems I see with not treating for these things is that it allows them to reproduce to dangerous numbers in an enclosed environment. I have often heard that fish carry parasites in the wild and are fine... and that is true for the most part.....but a fish tank isn't the wild...its a closed system which keeps any parasites that reproduce in close proximity to their host....sooner or latter...thats going to be an issue as these parasites increase and overwhelm the fish.

Add to this that some parasites are very difficult to control once they are established, things like costia, velvet etc.

hth,
al

[Ed13]

Hi Ed,

I prophylactically treat all my fish for external parasites and worms. I do not prophylactically treat for bacterias. This is done when first received and not periodically.

-al

ps.. welcome to SimplyDiscus!:)
How do you treat for bacteria as as preventive?

[puertoayacucho]

As a preventive, very clean water and a good quality diet.

[brewmaster15]

Hi ed,

How do you treat for bacteria as as preventive? You can't. Its impossible to know what antibacterial medicines will work against any potential pathogens there, assuming any will be a problem at all.. That said..I know many that use furan 2, tetracycline etc.. when they first get fish..This is not something I reccommend and is something that affects all of us as it creates bacterial resistence to important antibiotics.



As a preventive, very clean water and a good quality die I agree!

-al

[Apistomaster]

Hi Ed,
Just to clarify the 6 discus in a 29 gal project. I am using 6 of my home grown domestics in this experiment, not Heckels. They are expendables.
I am very close to pair off stage. Just interesting sometimes to see what I can get away with.
Larry W.

[raglanroad]

clay is apparently a bacterial prophylactic. when we concentrate on drugs, we can sometimes forget simple and possibly more effective, less health- compromising treatments.

my experience says that time and again, tropheus and other africans that would have been medicated into oblivion, get their guts in order after one or two feedings with clay in the food. there is documentation on clay's ability to handle organisms.

Using sterilized everything for quarantine, and pure water, no biofilter, the fish are not exposed to pathogen from other tanks or tapwater.

[David Urban]

To all
How do you treat for external parasites and worms when the fish looks healthy?
At this moment I only use daily 30% water change, with peat
regards ant thanks for your answer

[Ed13]

Hi Ed,

I prophylactically treat all my fish for external parasites and worms. I do not prophylactically treat for bacterias. This is done when first received and not periodically.

-al

ps.. welcome to SimplyDiscus!:)

ops I misunderstood, I see now you were talking about treating for worms and parasites and not about bacteria!

[Apistomaster]

I just use heat for protozoan ectoparasites and vermifuge in food for worms.
I only resort to any other meds on a case by case basis.
That means I sample the fish to look at the bacteria under my 'scope that cause diseases I cannot cure. I tend to be quick to euthanize rather than pretend I am going to effect some cure with some miracle in a can.
Larry

[puertoayacucho]

I treat all wildcaught cichlids (and other species in the tanks with them, if any) as Larry does. Heat and deparasting agents. Other than a broad spectrum deworming agent (don't know exactly what Larry prefers) I use a prazi composite (prazi + febantel + pyrantel) which provides a much broader spectrum of action than praziquantel alone. I also use metronidazole for flagellates and related protozoans. I provide these meds in the feed, basically soaking FDBW until saturation in a distilled or r/o aqueous solution made with the meds. I also apply heat. I try to do this ASAP after I receive fish.

Basically I provide the medicated feed and high temperature (for discus +/- 92F, for altum +/- 88F) for 3 continuous days each week with 4 rest days (on a good non medicated quality food and room temperature or 82F, whichever is higher), I try to keep it up for a month, observing fish behavior, apparent weight and growth.

In this way, the heat helps us to increase not only the metabolism (and hence the immune system) of the fish being treated, but also the life cycles of the parasites, some of which are only vulnerable after they are ousted from the fish's body and are impeded of finding an appropriate host or re-enter the fish itself (due to the concentration of the meds in the bloodstream of the fish during treatment).

The treatment is designed to handle, among other pathogen forms: protozoans: spironucleus/hexamita/octomita/bodomonas/cryptobia and other related flagellates, gyrodactylus/dactylogyrus, tapeworms, roundworms, pinworms and ringworms, it also helps mild GI bacterial infections.

I have also used trimethoprim sulfate in this formula succesfully. The latter specially in fish which show digestive stress (abnormal feces) when I receive them.

Ed

[brewmaster15]

HI Ed,
question for you...

prazi + febantel + pyrantel I have read that combination, though great for cats and dogs is toxic to fish...can you provide more details on the dose you use and how? Do you see any adverse side effects?

Thank you,
al

[puertoayacucho]

HI Ed,
question for you...
I have read that combination, though great for cats and dogs is toxic to fish...can you provide more details on the dose you use and how? Do you see any adverse side effects?

Thank you,
al

I burnt the skin off a lot of P. altum when I started using Bayer Drontal dissolved in water, I could not recover the fish. This was some 15 years ago. Discus in another tank did recover after recovering their mucous membrane. I must have used 1 to 2 tablets in a 40 gallon aquarium. Don't remember exact formulation weightwise of each tab, but they were the large dog dose.
When Drontal Plus hit the market I knew I was not going to dissolve this stuff in the water. So began experimenting in the feed.
Drontal Plus is the formula that contains the other two components that broaden the spectrum allowing treatment of a wider variety of worms.
I simply mortared a tablet of the product in about 50-60ml of distilled water until I got as much as I can to dissolve. These tablets don't crush easy.
I took a big tablespoon of freeze dried bloodworms (FDBW) and kneeded and squeezed them until thay had absorbed the medicated solution.
The worms only absorb as much as they can, and additional particles are lost when the worms come in contact with the water.
The fish only eat as much medication as can be suspended/held within the FDBW.
I later decided to add the metro in the same fashion into the FDBW instead of dosing it in water. Though in some cases, I might combine water dosed metro and fed metro.
Now I usually recommend using about 1/4 to 1/8 tab of the prazi composite and 1/2 tab of metro to about 100ml of distilled water and put in an amount of FDBW that will absorb this volume.
When fed and used as above described, I have not seen any secondary effects and my fish, rarely got sick again.
Normally, this treatment was only done once just after I received any fish.
Before that, I had a pretty hard time keeping wild discus alive for an extended period of time, 2-3 years at most.

Ed

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Ed,
I thought that might be the case.. The same will happen if you dose fenbendazole ( panacur) to the water......but in the food its fine. Something to consider for future evaluations ...much appreciated.

I wonder how much medication is getting into the freeze dried foods.. one other question if I can? How long do you feed the medicated foods and is it the only food you feed while treating?


Thanks,
al

[D discus]

HI Al just saw your post on Costia. Years and years ago a university in Georgia was doing an experiment with Flagellates Costia their heater mal functioned raising temp to 88F. All Costia perished! I believe a bruse+Costia=hole in the head. DD

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dick,
yes I believe heat is definetly a valuable tool in dealing with some parasites.. It can either kill them out right or speed their life cycle up to the point that medications become more effective.

-al

btw.. sent you a pm ( see your upper right corner of the screen)

[ShinShin]

Interesting thread here guys. I have flip flopped several times over the years about prophylatic treatment of newly acquired discus. I have now settled in on doing so, domestic or wild. While visual examination of newly acquired discus can tell some of the story, it doesn't tell all. Scraping and collecting fecal samples is surely the way to go, but, not always practical. For example, a recent shipment of 12 wild discus placed in a 100gal tank, I would have had a monumental task of attempting to scrape each fish, and try to collect a freshly dropped fecal sample. Collecting a fresh fecal sample from each fish may have taken a week. Who has the time for all that, especially with a job and family responsibilities? Treatment is the way to go, IMO these days. 1 or 2 fish, may be a different story, but who buys 1 or 2 discus at a time, generally?

I always treat upon arrival a formalin/malachite green. I don't raise the temp above the norm. After several days, I treat with prazi directly into the water. The following week, I wil treat with levamisole @ 1mg/L, repeating in 2 weeks. I generally do not treat with metro, unless the discus will not feed, then metro is placed into the water and temp raised to ~94F.

I think it is misleading to think or suggest that one's QT tank need not be large enough to accomodtae the number of discus one intends to purchase. Almost all discus diseases are stress induced. Shipping is stress inducing, then to place them in too small of a tank, overcrowding produces more stress, as does the actual treatment. I agree with Ed on providing adequate space for each fish, in particular if those fish are adults. I disagree, as well, with the idea that wild fish are more difficult. I have always found wild discus to be more hardy than their domestic counterparts. While being an iconoclast myself in the area of politics and religion, I found that when I tried to prove wrong the methods of the true discus icons such as Wattley, Schmidt-Focke, etc., it was an exercise in futility. Although Wattley never bred Heckels, probabally because he just gave up too soon, Schmidt-Focke and Degan have, something most of us here haven't.

Mat

[raglanroad]

I've used Ed's method of Drontal + for my altums, and no bad effect whatsoever was visible.

The corys stopped the occasional flicking they were doing.

We have information on the great product Flubenol15, which handles many organisms. This information is contrary to the information on the effects of regularly available Flubenol, with it's headstanding problems. Reports sugget immediately increased vigour of fish, along with Flub 15's wider spectrum of worm kill. Also it is not a nerve agent. Major advantage.

It also said to be proven to have no bad effect on fish, only on the worm physiology. Unfortunately, we are only in the opening stages of getting this product into North America through the help of the manufacturer and distributors.

Edit: just to clarify, when I say "we" are getting help to obtain it in NA, I refer to members of Finarama who are trying to buy some for their own use, from England or Bulgaria,or really from wherever it can come through legally. People can send individual gifts from some countries. The manufacturer and distributor are also forum members who are trying to help us out, not for any big payoff.

In Canada Drontal is not prescription, and is legal - but to buy it, you might need a vet, and from a vet you need an appointment to present your fish for treatment. And then pay the very high vet price for each pill. They won't sell these non-prescription pills unless you book , and bring in your fish !!
Basically have to get it from the net.

[puertoayacucho]

Shinshin, you have a sound protocol that seems to cover most common problems with newly acquired fish.
I too put Wattley, Schmidt-Focke and company's treatments to test and actually they were the base for my own. Discus for the Perfectionist is a text I consider most valuable, a copy of which I got personally from Jack Wattley 15 years ago when visiting his home. Putting together the experience of so many top discus breeders and himself taking the role of moderator produced an excellent technical writing. Degen, Untergasser, are all in the background of my practice.
Of course then, I'm at least a decade behind and hope to update myself in discus soon.

Ed

[puertoayacucho]

Thanks Ed,
I thought that might be the case.. The same will happen if you dose fenbendazole ( panacur) to the water......but in the food its fine. Something to consider for future evaluations ...much appreciated.

I wonder how much medication is getting into the freeze dried foods.. one other question if I can? How long do you feed the medicated foods and is it the only food you feed while treating?


Thanks,
al

Al, I try to keep this up for a 28 days, never less than 21 days. Actually I give the medicated food and live food the first 3 days of each week and during that time I increase temperature to 88F (for altum) or 92F (discus). During days 4,5,6 and 7 of each week, I feed just live food, recipe (self made food) and maybe a good pellet food, and I decrease temperature down about 5 degrees. So it's a 3 day ON / 4 day OFF thing for a month.

BTW, to those that have read any of my posts in Finarama or Angelfish.net concerning this protocol, if I ever said 4 day ON, 3 day OFF, it's my mistake (though harmless i would say). The idea is to administer the meds and high temperature as long and strong as possible, but allowing recovery from the stress, promoting growth or healing, and allowing time for and stimulating life cycle development of many of the pathogens involved. I really wouldn't see much of a problem if anyone goes 4 ON, 3 OFF with this.

I would strongly oppose 21 straight days of high temperature and medicated food only or on a daily basis for prophylactis purposes. The administration of meds on a continuos basis for such a period of time should only be for specific curative purposes.

Regards,

Ed