Heckel leopard X

[Chinaman]

Hi,

I though I post a pic of the heckel leopard x that i got from the german discus show about 6 months ago. They were around 3" and two of them are now around 5.5"

[tpl*co]

Wow, love em'!

Tina

[brewmaster15]

Very Very Interesting!... do you know who the breeder was?

-al

[Bainbridge Mike]

Wow:

Those fish are really interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[Chinaman]

Very Very Interesting!... do you know who the breeder was?

-al

Al,

here is the link http://www.diskus-markt.de/ it was on the back of the receipt.

cheers

Jim

[ShinShin]

They're not really Heckels because nobody can breed real Heckels, just look alikes. They just have a pronounced 5th bar. ;)

Mat

[Apistomaster]

I stumbled on to a discus seller/breeder's advertisement on aquabid (not an auction listing) that had a pair of "Domestic Green Heckel adult pair" for $175.00 the other day.
The fish shown were very similar to Heckels, good strong 5th bar and even striations. Brighter colored than 99% of our wilds and where they really were different was their diameter:heighth ratio. They were not circular but "high fin" style. They did not make any claim they were a spawning pair.

Most reliably producing young pairs of most any good color variety is rarely sold except in events of just having to get out of the hobby.

I apologize that I am not listing the vendor's name but I wanted to just try to describe an interesting "domestic Heckel" that was actually for sale. If anyone wants to track these fish down I'm sure you can figure out how to do it. Had these been circular they would have been reminiscent of some of the wild hybrids shown in Heiko's new book.

[Chinaman]

They're not really Heckels because nobody can breed real Heckels, just look alikes. They just have a pronounced 5th bar. ;)

Mat

Mat,

I mentioned they are heckel Leopard X, didn't say they are pure heckel. Is a bit harsh to said nobody can breed real heckels, i though someone in the spain region (can't remember if the photos were posted here or on another forum) had bred a pair of blue face heckels with photo taken with the babies. Also alberto had bred a pair of heckels.

cheers
jim

[ShinShin]

Jim,

My post was tongue in cheek. If you have been following the Heckel threads, you would have seen I have been the sole believer in exactly that - Heckels are being bred, and being bred on a regular basis everywhere but the USA and most of Europe, hence most Americans and Europeans outside of Germany think it can't be done and/or isn't being done. Asians have been doing it for years, inspite of what anyone thinks or believes, or how many books they've written.

Mat

[ShinShin]

Larry,

I recall seeing that green Heckel as well, and if memory serves me correctly, they were offered by the charlatan of all charlatans in the discus world. Nothing that outfit says can be taken seriously.

Mat

[brewmaster15]

Mat,


you would have seen I have been the sole believer in exactly that - Heckels are being bred, and being bred on a regular basis everywhere but the USA and most of Europe, hence most Americans and Europeans outside of Germany think it can't be done and/or isn't being done. Asians have been doing it for years, inspite of what anyone thinks or believes, or how many books they've written. Sole believer? Sure take all the limelight yourself.:):) Sole believer might be a bit of an overstatement my friend.;):)

-al

[ShinShin]

Oh, I didn't realize there were more who shared this view on Heckels, Al. ;) Maybe I've just been more vocal in the Heckel Project about it than most.

Mat

[brewmaster15]

Mat,
Some people make statements, other ask questions that ultimately lead to statements... as long as we all get the answers when its said and done... Thats good enough for me.;):D

For the record...I also believe heckels have been bred more than is often believed...Now I hope to add first hand experience to what I believe!:)

-al

[puertoayacucho]

For a minute you had me there Mat... with your "Judgment Day Declaration"!

Well, here's another believer!

Ed

[standoyo]

Lol! I was what? I thought the 'Haitian' got to Mat! :D

That a nice variation of Heckel cross. Pretty!

[Apistomaster]

I don't think I have ever said no one has bred Heckels just that it is a rare in North America and Europe. It was my intention and hope that we could change this situation so that tank raised Heckels bred and raised in North America would become available and provide us with both greater knowledge about what it takes to breed our wild caught Heckels and at the same time establish a tank raised populations in captivity that might be a little easier to breed than the wild caught fish. It is more than a little odd that after over sixty years of Heckels in the Western countries we have not yet made raising Heckels into a routine business. Somethings are worked on just because the challenge is great.

Even if the effort is as crude as the thesis that a team of chimpanzees with typewriters, given enough time, could reproduce the complete works of Shakspeare completely at random. How we get there is less important to me than actually getting it done.

I do not have any actual first hand knowledge of the results of the efforts of the many discus breeders in SE Asia. It is apparent that they have incorporated Heckels into certain lines of discus with some goals in mind.
The value of some tank raised Heckels is high enough that it does make me wonder why none have been made available to their buyers. The price of wild Heckels in Australia and New Zealand is exhorbitant yet they are able to obtain SE Asian discus without the same difficulties as importing wild fish. There would be a profitable market for them even if they find do the Heckels esthetically undesirable I am sure they would not object in converting the "undesirable" discus into cash where there is a market to exploit.
There is a thirsty marketplace for wild type discus "down under."

I am actually trying to breed the Heckel Discus and I do have ten that I bought as 3 inch juveniles that are now 5 inches as one has to try or there is no chance of success. I could easily picked an easier Discus species to work with but I have already done that. It has only been the Heckels that have proven more resistant to persuasion.

[Ed13]

Larry,

by the charlatan of all charlatans in the discus world. Nothing that outfit says can be taken seriously.

Mat

Mat you MUST tell me who tought you that word and how in the world did you figured how to use it correctly. :confused: :D ;) . As far as I know is a Puerto Rican regionalism that only lately has been taking off in other latinamerican countries!

*I'm not saying that the seller is a charlatan (not a serious person, not trust worthy, always joking, misbehaving, and even taking advantage of others)

[standoyo]

Perhaps the idea of buying tank bred heckels isn't appealing?
Just like buying tank bred brown or red spotted green discus.

People are also more willing to accept defects in wild fishes.

I've got some turquoiseXheckel but they sure do not excite me the way a WILD heckel does! [Unless i'm really newbie!]
Breeding Heckels is a noble idea-destresses the natural source in the wild but making it untimately common like cardinal tetra sounds like a poor fate for them.

[Apistomaster]

Hi standoyo,

We all have different goals and opinions.
There are some of us who do like wild type discus and their tank raised decesendants. It seem to be a matter of interests and tastes . Something not meant or expected to be shared by all discus keepers. There is room for all POV's.

I have room for some of the pretty selectvely bred strains od domestics as well as wild fish and I enjoy them all.
Larry W.

[standoyo]

Hi Larry,

That perhaps is what keeps this hobby interesting. Different opinions and tastes. Let live. :)

[Apistomaster]

The fancy discus will never go out of style in the USA.

At the same time there has been a resurgence in interest in the wild forms, here. There is something about wild discus that has an appeal all it's own.

Perhaps it is the fact that they help bring us closer to nature is why.

[oskita]

post interesting, in my short experience, I believe that the problem with the reproduction of heckel, is in the little dispocision of the females to the egg-laying… like possible causes, it is spoken of the time that trascurren without eating after the capture. there is a spread theory widely, that it says that the females that have laid eggs in wild state, never do it in captivity. it is possible that the sexual maturity of these animals arrives much more behind schedule (3 or 4 years) that in the animals domestic servants. I have had the luck of which they laid eggs a female to me to alenquer f-3 and a pure male heckel (river unini)
http://i11.tinypic.com/315k9vq.jpg

[Apistomaster]

Males always seem to be more willing to breed with any female they are given.

Solving the problem of bringing a female Heckel into spawning condition in captivity is probably at the root of breeding Heckels.

I don't think it will prove to be whether or not a female has bred before so much as the correct diet and perfect timing. Reproducing the diet of wild Heckels in the aquarium has a long ways to go. We use diets that lack so many of the foods Heckels normally feed on and the diets are heavily skewed towards animal proteins instead of the native terresterial fruits that have been found to be part of Heckel stomach contents and they are seasonal foods.
I've never expected the Heckel Project to be easy but the more of us working on them the better our chances of success.
I know not everyone thinks Heckels are all that but they are a worthy challenge for those of us who do like them.
Larry Waybright