Spawning Heckle Question

[William Palumbo]

Hi fellow Heckelers,

I know that there are two schools of thought on whether Heckles...true Heckles, have ever been bred in captivity. Which raises a question that I have had for awhile about the topic. Many years ago, maybe the late '80s, I remember a hobbyist named David Dollman, who lives in my state,of Illinois, in a Chicago suburb, who supposedly bred two wild Heckles together. He was one of the hobbyist in Wattleys'" Discus for the perfectionist book". Also, from what I have heard, is that Wattey himself wanted to, and did, trade some of his fish for the F1 Dollman Heckles,and also getting himself into the above mentioned Wattley book for doing so. Does anyone remember this?, and if so, were they actually two pure Heckles? As far as I knew at the time, it was NOT a Heckle cross.
Bill

[Apistomaster]

I do remember seeng ads by Wattley in old TFH issues when in was in the small sized format listing Heckels for only $16.00.

[Apistomaster]

I believe Heckels have been spawned but only rarely over the years and that we haven't had enough success yet to establish an aquarium strain that might be easier to work with than the current wild stock we are keeping.

If I believed Heckels have never been bred I would not be as interested in accomplishing it, whether by myself or anyone else who is trying.

There are some fish that have just never bred in captivity but fortunately Heckels aren't one of them.

Larry W.

[Ed13]

Hi fellow Heckelers,

I know that there are two schools of thought on whether Heckles...true Heckles, have ever been bred in captivity. Which raises a question that I have had for awhile about the topic. Many years ago, maybe the late '80s, I remember a hobbyist named David Dollman, who lives in my state,of Illinois, in a Chicago suburb, who supposedly bred two wild Heckles together. He was one of the hobbyist in Wattleys'" Discus for the perfectionist book". Also, from what I have heard, is that Wattey himself wanted to, and did, trade some of his fish for the F1 Dollman Heckles,and also getting himself into the above mentioned Wattley book for doing so. Does anyone remember this?, and if so, were they actually two pure Heckles? As far as I knew at the time, it was NOT a Heckle cross.
Bill
Heckels have been spawned together in captivity, anyone that tells you otherwise is either lying or blind(metaphorically speaking) the only controversy is if they have been spawned with effortless succes and/or in large quantities as a part of a breeding program!
Altum Angels are the ones that have never been spawned in captivity!???

[Apistomaster]

Good response Ed, actually I think more people are trying to breed Altums than Heckels but in the end similar debates exist:
1.Routinely done in SE Asia.
2.The controversial H. Linke strain. (The purity of the line is in doubt.)
3. Isolated reports as we have with Heckels. (Azuma, TFH published his Altum account.)
At least that is what I have been able to figure out.

I have trouble with any claim that asserts neither species has been bred in captivity.
If I had more room to accomodate them I would like to ge some very fine wild RSG Discus to kill time with while I hope my Heckels spawn some day.
What I have come to realize is that many of the folks who have been defenders of the proposition Heckels are bred routinely in the Far East have yet to even bred any discus let alone ANY wild fish. Therefore their authoritive credentials are rather insubstantial.
True discus fanatics can never have enough discus. What is unfortunate is that the marketplace may not support the purchase of Discus that have to grow to near maturity before they show their colors.
Larry W

[BC Mosaic]

True discus fanatics can never have enough discus. What is unfortunate is that the marketplace may not support the purchase of Discus that have to grow to near maturity before they show their colors.
Larry W

I'm sure/hoping that there are ways around this issue - PR/education would/does help and I say this with personal experience although with a totally different "product".
Having said that, what would be the next "primo" discus that would excite the appetite of discus purists or even those fanatics "that can't get enough discus"?

Great thread BTW.

[Apistomaster]

As pliable as discus have proven to be in the hands of breeders plus unique wild fish yet to be brought into the "fold" there are no limits to what we will see in the future that will pique the interests of discus fanciers.

The discus has proven to be as easy as guppies to breed by design into whatever is wanted. I'm surprised that one type I haven't seen yet is an all black discus or all black with the red and blue markings retained.

I did see the photo of a black discus captured by and shown in H. Bleher's new book. If that was a genetically black fish then it is probably only a matter of time before there is a domestic black.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Larry,


What I have come to realize is that many of the folks who have been defenders of the proposition Heckels are bred routinely in the Far East have yet to even bred any discus let alone ANY wild fish. Therefore their authoritive credentials are rather insubstantial. I feel These kinds of comments are counter productive, and in my opinion completely uncalled for and hypocritical. You seem to feel that only your Opinion on whether heckels have been bred routinely in another part of the world than you live in is valid. You are welcome to your opinion on this subject as are other members here...but do not belittle the experiences of other members because their opinion is different from yours. I take personal offense at the implications and accusations here, as I am sure others do.

Please let me know why your "authoritative credentials " in this matter and wilds in general are any better than anyone elses that you can comment as above?

The Idea of the heckel project is to work together to solve the questions surrounding heckels.. Comments like these will do nothing to make this project a success, instead they will destroy it before it even gets off the ground. I have already found myself losing interest in posting on the matter...and I have invested a significant amount of tanks and stock to the project at my hatchery.

Mutual respect is the only thing that will allow open communication of ideas and thoughts here as to heckels breeding.

Thank you,
al

[Apistomaster]

Hi Al,
I'm a little surprised that you should bring this issue up long after that post was made and in a thread that has been nothing but friendly in tone.

I'll try to be more tactful. It cuts both ways. But if you wish to place it all on my doorstep, it's OK. It is as they say, "your store." I'm just the guy that asked you about whether this special subforum would be a good idea. Apparently you thought it was. If you feel strongly about the old post then you have the power to ban me. I don't wish to not be an asset to your website.

I guess 40 years of breeding discus beginning with wild fish first and the fact that none of these tank raised Heckels mentioned seem to have ever been seen or distributed by anyone in the West has formed two schools of thought.

1. The one that believes it is a rare event. You know I am hardly alone in this belief.
2. The one that believes it's routine. Where are their fish?

Camp two have been represented by some rather obnoxious statements, I have not been that obnoxious. I have expressed a desire for seeing signs of these routinely bred and produced Heckels but none have been forthcoming.
The breeders in the West, few as they have been, at least have recorded their results in photographic form and published them.

We can all just go back to working alone on our goals and no longer share information. I have for nearly all of these 40 years. That has been the way of the past. My wild discus resources are all invested in Heckels. I only raise domestics for the money. No one ever gave me the keys to the kingdom. I had to work it out by myself many years ago before everyone had hundreds of domestic strains from which to choose.
Maybe because I began breeding wild discus and selling F1 discus before most of my critics were born has given me a different perspective.
Cheers,
Larry Waybight

[brewmaster15]

Hi Al,
I'll try to be more tactful. It cuts both ways. But if you wish to place it all on my doorstep, it's OK. It is as they say, "your store." I'm just the guy that asked you about whether this special subforum would be a good idea. Apparently you thought it was.

I guess 40 years of breeding discus beginning with wild fish first and the fact that none of these tank raised Heckels mentioned seem to have never been seen or distributed by anyone in the West has formed two schools of thought.

1. The one that believes it is a rare event. You know I am hardly alone in this belief.
2. The one that believes it's routine. Where are their fish?

Camp two have been represented by some rather obnoxious statements, I have not been that obnoxious. I have expressed a desire for seeing signs of these routinely bred and produced Heckels but none have been forthcoming.
The breeders in the West, few as they have been, at least have recorded their results in photographic form and published them.

We can all just go back to working alone on our goals and no longer share information. I have for nearly all of these 40 years. That has been the way of the past. My wild discus resources are all invested in Heckels. I only raise domestics for the money. No one ever gave me the keys to the kingdom. I had to work it out by myself many years ago before everyone had hundreds of domestic strains from which to choose.
Cheers,
Larry Waybight



Larry,
Asking for the sub-forum doesn't give you any special rights..It was a good idea and I agreed and made...For the benefit of all...not anyone particular point of view.


I am not taking exception to your view on the current status of tank raised heckel. I am taking exception to what amounts to a totally uncalled for comment about members that differ from your opinion. Who are you to comment on what they have bred or have not bred? Forty years as a hobbyist is an accomplishment...its not a liscence.

I happen to be one that believes that heckels have been bred and can be bred easily given the right circumstances...I have seen enough Heckel crosses over the years to believe that... My reasons that they are not common are economics...Theres no commercial demand for f1 wilds....

Does your comment....
many of the folks who have been defenders of the proposition Heckels are bred routinely in the Far East have yet to even bred any discus let alone ANY wild fish. Therefore their authoritive credentials are rather insubstantial. now apply to me because I disagree with your views? I have always respected your views...I don't agree but I respect them.

I don't have 40 years in this...and make no claims to it...but I can assure you that I am not inexperienced as your blanket statement implies.

That is my point....react to it as you see fit...but your post was not warranted and it has nothing to do with it being my forum.

Thank you,
al

[Apistomaster]

My post was not directed at you at all. It was for those who have very little experience with breeding discus but seem to be authorities on the subject and had been acerbic in their tone directed at me personally.

Of course I respect you. You already know that. As I said above, it is your website and it benefits you more than anyone else. You are free to do whatever you wish. I was of the impression that your experience with breeding discus included breeding wild fish.If I was wrong in that assumption, I apologize.

My suggesting that you add a special forum for working on the Heckel breeding problems gives me no rights. It was just a good enough suggestion for you to go ahead and open it.

I can only choose to share my experience as long as I 'm allowed to by you.
Discus fanciers can take what I say I know with a grain of salt. There are some that have expressed their thanks to me for sharing and I am happy to help discus fanciers to the extent I can or am allowed to. Nothing more.
Cheers,
Larry Waybright

[brewmaster15]

My post was not directed at you at all. It was for those who have very little experience with breeding discus but seem to be authorities on the subject and had been acerbic in their tone directed at me personally.

Of course I respect you. You already know that. As I said above, it is your website and it benefits you more than anyone else. You are free to do whatever you wish.

My suggesting that you add a special forum for working on the Heckel breeding problems gives me no rights. It was just a good enough suggestion for you to go ahead and open it.

I can only choose to share my experience as long as I 'm allowed to by you.
Discus fanciers can take what I say I know with a grain of salt. There are some that have expressed their thanks to me for sharing and I am happy to help discus fanciers to the extent I can or am allowed to. Nothing more.
Cheers,
Larry Waybright


Larry,
Directing that comment at anyone is wrong, ... whether directed at me or someone thats not even posting in this thread...It was an uncalled for personal attack and was not necessary to make in this thread.... what purpose did it serve? you used this thread to take a swipe at someone not even posting in this thread...
had been acerbic in their tone directed at me personally. I suggest you take the gripe off the forum next time.. Posts like these don"t belong on this forum.


On a more related note... Something for you to think about when you are calling for your proof of tank raised heckels... you may want to look for Commercially raised f1 wild greens, browns, and blues... I think you will find them equally uncommon as f1 heckels.. and we KNOW that these non- heckel wild forms are easy to breed , don't we? Does that mean anything? It does to me.


If you want to debate the comment issue with me further...Pm or email me, but I suggest you drop it.

-al

Ps..
I was of the impression that your experience with breeding discus included breeding wild fish.If I was wrong in that assumption, I apologize. apology not necessary..I am quite experienced at all aspects of keeping and breeding wilds discus, angels, and others

[Apistomaster]

Not debating. The reason I don't worry about F1 discus of the non-Heckel variety is that I can produce those for myself with just a little time and patience.

It is the frustration at doing so with Heckels that has always made me want to get them to spawn so tank raised Heckels become available to work with further without perhaps, as much difficulty in getting them in the first place.
Larry

[DavidH]

Hey all,
been a long time since I've posted.

Just a question? Back many years ago I visited Fairy Lake Discus Palace in San Francisco. I think the owners name was Herman.
I was sure he had an article that stated he had bred heckles...
Anybody heard of this guy and was it true?

Dave

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave,
Herman is a legend, one of those truly gifted breeders.. I have heard from many that he had a knack for breeding heckels.. He is retired from what I hear but I do believe that he was one that bred heckels on several occasions.

Many consider him a true master with discus.

hth,
al

[DavidH]

Thx Al,
I bought my very first discus from him. I think it was about 1983 or around that time.
He had pairs all around the top of his store above eye level.
I saw no fry so I asked Herman where they were. He took me into a back room full of tanks and fry.

Dave

[CliffsDiscus]

Herman Chan is the Heckle King that's it, lets look back at history, 40's years,
Dr.Walls Discus they were Heckle bloodline this was the late 60's, later Bing's Colbalt also from the same bloodline this was the early 70's. Where did these original bloodline come from no other than Herman Chan. Almost every
big Discus Dealers has visit Fairly Lake at one time or another. Herman is not
retired yet but he was just talking about it a couple weeks ago. The secret
of breeding the Heckle is out as Herman was talking about his method to me
a year ago.

Cliff

[brewmaster15]

The secret
of breeding the Heckle is out as Herman was talking about his method to me
a year ago. Okay Cliff, soOOOOOO please do share:)...and get to work breeding them@!:):)

-al

[ShinShin]

Larry,

I have taken exception to much of what you have written about everyone one else that disagrees with your ideas, many of which are either just plain wrong or are fostered by denial. I also know that you have not been breeding discus for 40years as you constantly brag. This info came from you via a direct email to myself. I have also read on another forum where you claim to be the first to breed the wild discus, and we all know that that simply is BS.

You have been offered time and time again, information that you ignore because it does not fit into the fantasyland you reside where you are sole king and master. BELIEVE THIS: PEOPLE ARE AND HAVE BEEN BREEDING HECKEL DISCUS IN CAPTIVITY, AND FOR QUITE AWHILE. JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T DOESN'T MEAN OTHERS AREN'T. Many people here offered up evidence to this, and believe it or not, many of these people know more than you know. You'll find that last comment very unpalitable, but true. There are also many here that have been very succesful in breeding discus and are knowledgeable in all phases of the hobby.

It has been explained to you that there is no market for F1 Heckles, and because of that, Asian breeders are not mass producing them. As far as your question about why haven't they been offered for sale, you were given an answer to that as well, and just ignored it. They have been offered for sale. Discus Hawaii offered them for sale for quite awhile. Call Ray Kosaka and ask him personally. He is located in Honolulu. Dennis H. of this forum purchased and spawned these discus from Ray, but you've been told that already as well. There was simply no market and Ray quit carring them.

As far as Heiko's black discus, the discus was not black, simply a darker than normal discus. When we are talking black discus, we mean Yucatan Black Mollie black.

You asked for this subforum, act as though only your thoughts carry any substance and/or validity, and have driven people, myself included, away from participating. It's time to face reality, Larry: People have been and are breeding Heckles. Your not.

Mat

[Lisachromis]

Herman Chan is the Heckle King that's it, lets look back at history, 40's years,
Dr.Walls Discus they were Heckle bloodline this was the late 60's, later Bing's Colbalt also from the same bloodline this was the early 70's. Where did these original bloodline come from no other than Herman Chan. Almost every
big Discus Dealers has visit Fairly Lake at one time or another. Herman is not
retired yet but he was just talking about it a couple weeks ago. The secret
of breeding the Heckle is out as Herman was talking about his method to me
a year ago.

Cliff

Not trying to get involved here too much as I don't have heckels. But this got me thinking.... How do we know Dr. Walls discus were heckels? Or Bing's cobalts? Not saying they were or weren't, just want to know how we know they are.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Ed13]

Not trying to get involved here too much as I don't have heckels.


Same here, I prob won't be posting again as I can't contribute much and I don't what to fuel more comments of the nature that have already taken place! Did not really liked reading something like this on this site!
I'm sorry to bring Kenny to this discussion, (Sorry buddy) however I love looking at his pics!
It seems to me that at least one breeder in Asia has or is using heckels for a breeding program and I don't know if their is or was a market for them but I really like them especially the ones from the first thread.. The threads:

pics 9-11 of Post #1, page #1
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54108

pics in post #209, page#21
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=45944&page=21

I can't really comment much more as I've never breed Heckels myself nor have I visited facilities in Asia, I can only go with the trust the images and the person/or breeder word create

[Apistomaster]

Shin Shin,
I began breeding Wild discus in the Summer of 1969. I began breeding TR discus afer I grew out some of my F1's I have raised discus off and on ever since. I have taken breaks but it is like riding bicycles.
I did take a break to raise a family. But I stayed involved with tropical fish including discus. If you have a different impression about my accomplishments, I can't help you. I don't remember ever meeting you at any point in my fish keeping stint. I remember all the people who I helped get started with and later became discus breeders in their own right.

What I posted was that in 1969 I was the only one here in the Pacific NW East of the Cascades who did raise discus to the best of anyones' knowledge.
Not to mean clear to the East coast but just limited to the 300 mile radius where the surrounding shops bought my fish. I raised discus instead of having a "real job" through my years attending my local community college. I was able to go jobless despite the fact that I only charged $3.00 each for my discus. When selling to the shops back then I would have enough feed back to know that no one else was raising discus for sale. That is something that was news back then and we in the region all knew each other, Put it in another way, I had no competition from another discus breeder in within my regional distribution area.

I did meet other discus breeders in that period in San Francisco, Portland and Seattle. They were all Asian breeders. You have no clue as to what I have done in my involvement as a tropical fish keeper starting at age 11 until today. All you know about me is that I am lighted phosphors on your computer screen
I opened my own shop with the help of my parents in 1966.
It became a matter of public record through local newspaper stories that in 1969 I had the largest fish shop in Idaho. Not many 17 year olds had a fish shop then let alone the largest in my region. It was unusual for kids my age to have gone that far. Unusual enough to cause the write ups. I just happened to begin breeding discus at that same time. We closed the retail shop in 1972 and I continued to raise discus for the shops East of the Cascades here in the PNW until the end of 1972. I have intermittantly raised groups to get a few pairs and sold surplus fry as a hobbyist throughout the years from '69 until the present.
I have retired early and have been supplying discus to local fish shops and several in Spokane.
For all I know you may have raised many more wild discus and later, domestic discus than myself, maybe 20 years before I was born. Feel free to share.
I have a lot of history in the inland PNW and because others buy from me they know me now and they know me by reputation from way back because they were the kids who worked for the people I use to sell to and have gone on the open their own shops as the old guard grows old and is replaced.
The facts are that I had to travel far and wide to meet other discus breeders when I was beginning. It was something one had to do if you wanted to meet them because there were few and far between in the West in those years. Of course if you were actively involved with discus back then you would already know all this.
It should be pointed out that since you are among my greatest critics and I have been very open about my experience all I have heard are your critiques but nothing about your own background in breeding wild or domestic fish.
Would love to hear about your experiences and depth. I might find I can learn somethng from you that would help me be a better discus breeder. I raise a variety of fish but I did sell a $1000 in discus last month at wholesale prices.
I have a small fish room and many other interests and I can only sell this many discus regionally three or four times a year. Discus are just one type of fish I raise and sell.
Larry Waybright

[brewmaster15]

Larry,
What I posted was that in 1969 I was the only one here in the Pacific NW East of the Cascades to did raise discus to the best of anyones' knowledge.
Not to mean clear to the East coast but just limited to the 300 mile radius where the surrounding shops bought my fish. I raised discus instead of having a "real job" through my years attending my local community college. When selling to the shops back then I would have enough feed back to know that no one else was raising discus for sale. That is something that was news back then and we in the region all knew each other, Put it in another way, I had no competition from another discus breeder in within my regional distribution area. I Think that the quote Shin shin was referring to is on another forum .....

The quote was...

Hello All,
I'm Larry Waybright aka apistomaster. I have been breeding tropical fish since 1965. I am either the first or one of the first to begin breeding wild discus starting in 1969, in Lewiston, ID. I continue raising discus. Currently I have a nice turquoise strain and I have 10 Heckel discus growing up

I don't know if you were or were not the first to breed wild discus..... to be honest it doesn't matter to me either way....what I do I know is this thread went way of track Larry and it started when you deliberately took a pot shot at another forum member that had not even posted in the thread yet... I don't know how you expected it to play out...but it has played out exactly how comments attacking others play out on a forum... with a return attacking comment.

I think its time for you and Shin-shin to take it off the forum.....This is not going to go anywhere but downhill from here....

I'd rather not lock this thread, but I will if need be.


Thanks,
al

[Apistomaster]

I am agreeable to that, Al.
I do think is is true that I did not misrepresent myself.
One can hardly change the history of one's life.
It is just some local history that happens to be true.
Larry

[Yoda]

My problem is not to get the Heckels to spawn but to get the eggs hatced.

By lover the pH to 6 the spawning starts, but I newer has been able to get the egg hatched. kH is between 2 and 3 and the temperature is 29C.

[Darren's Discus]

Yoda,
great pictures all the best trying to hatch the eggs ! keep us posted on your efforts .


cheers

[Apistomaster]

My problem is not to get the Heckels to spawn but to get the eggs hatced.

By lover the pH to 6 the spawning starts, but I newer has been able to get the egg hatched. kH is between 2 and 3 and the temperature is 29C.

Yoda,
Congratulations. Your recorded success in spawning your Heckels is inspiring. Seeing is believing.
Do they continue to spawn?
If so have you or are you going to experiment by tweaking some fine points like lower pH, higher temperature, simulating blackwater, raising the measured redox potential, UV or ozonization to provide very low water bacterial counts and even just trying to hatch some out artificially and using methylen blue or some such just to see if the eggs are at least fertile?
There has to be some way to get them to go all the way once you get this close..
I know that it is not that unsusual for wild discus to only spawn once or twice then never again for reasons that hard to fathom. For me, with wild greens and one pair of Royal Blues, the males were ready but it was the females that were so hard to keep healthy enough to produce more ripe eggs. It always seeme that spawning took so much of what little reserve energy they had that they would sometimes become run down after spawning as if it just took too much out of them.
Could be I supplied an inadequate diet and I know that in the past there were no antihelminthics which were of low toxicity/high efficacy and I suspected that was a contributing factor. There are such much more improved medications available now that keeping the females closer to peak condition has a greater chance than when the cures were as bad or worse than the infestations.

A good post to perhaps put this Heckel project back on the right track. It's about just the fish.

[Yoda]

My Heckelpair are placed in a community tank so lowering the pH under 6 is not recommended. The only way to do this is by lowering the kH too. With a heavy planted tank and low pH and kH the water is unstable. I have a pair of browns that also are spawning in the tank, but I have the same problem with them.

The community tank is a 140 gallon tank with three Eheim canister filters. Automatic pH-regulation with CO2. The spring water is about 7.8-8.0 and with 0 kH. With CO2 I normally lower the PH to 6.7 and with carbonate I raise the kH between 2 and 3.

To get the discus in the mod I don’t use carbonate with WC and the kH slowly gets between 0 and 1. More CO2 is added and the pH dropping down to 6. With heavy WC and increased water movement the fish are trigged.

I don’t dare too lower the pH further because of the risk of damaging the filter bacteria. To do this I have to move them to a 48 gallon BB-tank where it is easier to control the watervalues and quality of the water.

To prime the fish, before trying to get them to spawn, I am using homemade beefheartmix and liquid vitamins. The pair is three years old so I am not in a hurry. Patience is the name of the game :)

[beamolite]

Hi fellow Heckelers,

I know that there are two schools of thought on whether Heckles...true Heckles, have ever been bred in captivity. Which raises a question that I have had for awhile about the topic. Many years ago, maybe the late '80s, I remember a hobbyist named David Dollman, who lives in my state,of Illinois, in a Chicago suburb, who supposedly bred two wild Heckles together. He was one of the hobbyist in Wattleys'" Discus for the perfectionist book". Also, from what I have heard, is that Wattey himself wanted to, and did, trade some of his fish for the F1 Dollman Heckles,and also getting himself into the above mentioned Wattley book for doing so. Does anyone remember this?, and if so, were they actually two pure Heckles? As far as I knew at the time, it was NOT a Heckle cross.
Bill I am David Dollman and yes I successfully bred two wild Heckels together in July 1988 and got about 100 babies from the spawn. I got the parents when they were very small. I was able to go with a friend who owned a petshop to a wholesaler and obtained them there. I sent Jack pictures of the parents and he said yes they were indeed pure Heckels Jack traded me some fish in exchange for the babies. I lost the parents and all my discus when the angelfish-discus disease wiped out all my fish. If you have anymore questions feel free to contact me.

[madfish]

When I was down in Rio I stopped in a pet shop one day. And what I seen will never leave my mind that place was the heaven of all shops. He had every kind of discus and amazon fish that you could think of. But really stuck in my mind is one tank he had a pair of heckels in there with some very young fry on them. I only wish that there wasnt a language gap between us so I could have found out what he did to get them to breed. One day I will have to make another trip down there just to see if that shop is still there.

[Lisachromis]

I am David Dollman and yes I successfully bred two wild Heckels together in July 1988 and got about 100 babies from the spawn. I got the parents when they were very small. I was able to go with a friend who owned a petshop to a wholesaler and obtained them there. I sent Jack pictures of the parents and he said yes they were indeed pure Heckels Jack traded me some fish in exchange for the babies. I lost the parents and all my discus when the angelfish-discus disease wiped out all my fish. If you have anymore questions feel free to contact me.

Do you have any pictures at all? Even ones from a regular camera that could be scanned. I think I can safely say this for everyone when I say "I'd LOVE to see some pictures of this"!

Oh, and for the others.... do you remember how you bred the Heckels? water parameters, food, etc...

[Apistomaster]

I hope some one who is successful in breeding pure Heckels is able to distribute the young so an aquarium strain of Heckels can become established in the hobby. The interest in Heckels is greater now than any time I can remember.
If they follow the same trend as most fish bred in captivity then breeding them should become more common place.

[Apistomaster]

I don't believe Heckels have never been bred in captivity, only that it has been a very rare accomplishment. I am mostly surprised that no one ever went on to keep a TR strain of Heckels going. There are alway these reports that something went wrong and the fish produced were all lost. I think given the number of people trying to breed Heckels is greater than any time in the past and we should begin to see some results fairly soon. Next few years should be very interesting. Like Heiko pointed out, the Heckels are extremely popular in Japan so the Heckel community has a much larger following and spawns should be inevitable.

I know that I have one pair that is especially promising. What I need to do is find a way to squeeze in another 75 gal tank and allot it to that pair and begin adjusting them from living in my tap water to conditions similar to those of the Heckel biotope. This pair is engaging in every form of pre-spawn behavior but are not likely to go any further in the group setting and in my tap water.
Curses to the limited space I have to work with.

[Göran Ekholm]

I can only say that i have done all i possible can but i only had pair cleaning a con but that's all, and i got some big and fat ones

[Göran Ekholm]

some more

[Darren's Discus]

Goran,
some great looking big heckels you have,all the best with them.


cheers

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi all of you.,

this is Heiko Bleher and I saw this interesting thread (only now?) and like to make some comments, for Larry E. Matincheck (as he mentioned my name), Larry (Apistomaster), Yoda, David, madfish and Göran:

Larry E. Matincheck:
1. I do not know if Larry (Apistomaster) claims to have been the first to breed wilds, i dougt it. He never mentioned it to me or anywhere else I know of. It also can not be, as the first breeders lived before he was born (all coming up in my volume 2, each detail of each and every first breeder).
2. It is definitely Wrong your statement, that Heckel-discus have been breeding in captivity for quite some while. Schmidt-Focke i.e. tried for 30plus years without success, and all I have seen so far (with only a handful of exceptions) were NOT Heckel-discus breed with Heckel-discus. There was ALWAYS a blue/royal blue or similar other discus involved. AND throughout Asia NO-ONE has EVER breed the true Heckel-discus. All those I visited (a few hundreds, all in my book II) thought they had done it, simply because they did not understand what a real Heckel-discus is (and many still do not know in Asia). The very same happens all the time with the real P. altum, everyone thinks that he/she is breeding them...
3. Show us one single evidence (pictures not words).
4. WHY should there be no market for F1 Heckles, that is ridiculous. One could sell thouysands every day (at least me...).
5. Let us see what Discus Hawaii offered them for sale, not words.
6. My collected discus was black, dark if you want, but I never didi I say it was yet black or like a Black Mollie black, there are very few such black fishes altogether.
Note: I am happy Al is taking this BS off.

Yoda: Great that you had/have eggs, but I dougt they will hatch with pH 6, or 67, and also not at KH 2-3. Nor with CO2. You should read what I wrote about Heckel-discus, parameters and habitats. Microsiemens must be below 20... and more things you must look/read at.

David: like Lisa said, we all would love to see some photos from 1988. Any available? Actually I could (and would love to) still include them in my volume II, as a permanent record for generations to come (as I did with Vol. 1). Please inform. And also: I will give a talk in Toronto on July 26th, maybe you can come.

madfish: if you saw those in Rio, can you tell me the store name? You know I am partly Brazilian and started my wholesale place (exporting Brazilian fishes, mostly which I collected myself) already in 1965 in Rio de Janeiro (that is why I called my company Aquarium Rio, later, end of 1967, transferred top Frankfurt, Germany). I know every store there and can ask next time (I am doing again to expeditions in August in Brazil).

Göran : first of all I like you, already because you are one of the few to use your own name on the web (what I think everyone should do, to avoid many problems...). But I think you have really beautiful Heckel-discus, congratulations, but you are NOT doing all possible as you say, by what I see on the pictures.
1. Wild Heckel-discus do not know PVC pipes.
2. They do not know empty aquariums (missing at least fine sand) - remember they are WILD fishes.
3. I do not see anything NATURAL in your aquarium and they are lookig for it. Have a look at my Bleher's Biotopes on my website. To get an idea.

That is all guys, I must go,

all the best

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com
www.aqua-aquapress.com

[Göran Ekholm]

I have with fin sand i almost all me tanks and rots and fore months, from late November to march i collected live food every day for them, almost all me tanks are biotope tanks, i have your book i brought it from you in Duisburg.

I learned from a German gentleman that lives in Sweden breeding true Royal Blues in the 80`s not semi royals but true fullstriped Royals about the fine sand, you had learned him!

I keep me Heckels in Ph 3,8 and a conductivity of 12-22 microsiemens, i have bin carrying water from the forest collecting it from a peat swamp fore months by hand daily for kilometers!

Believe me when i say that i done all i can!

Here are some of me tanks, but its difficult to see in the dark water, but if this is not a heckelbiotop under the dry season then i don't now how to do!

I also feed them with food made of sea mussel and fruits like strawberries and blueberry's, mango, bananas and all kind of tropical fruits and berry's!

I simulated the rain season by chancing all the water and put ed in a forest of plants. I have seen photos of namunda blueface heckels breeding, but i believe that the true Rio Negro heckels have never been bearded.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

it all sounds very good and you have paid good attention. Now the thing is yo wait and continue. The other suggestion I can give you:
Rio Negro Heckel-discus normally spawn in nature February-to April (seldom or never in January), during the raising and flood season. They will retain that spawning-period for sure.
I.e. Nhmaundá Heckel-discus will spawn during the month of November-February, hardly before or after, so they will retain that period as well (and I saw one, which is for sure from there).
But more about the different periods of Heckel-habitats is in my book, as you know.

I am almost sure, that Barbara has Heckel-disus from the Rio Negro and they cleaned at the time this year when it is also in nature...

Patienca is the Italian word.

best regards

Heiko

PS: did you see on my site what you missed in Poland...

[Apistomaster]

What I claimed and is fact about my breeding wild discus is this:
In 1969, when I was 17 years old I was the first to breed wild discus in the inland Pacific Northwest USA, East of the Cascade Mountain Range in Eastern Washington, East of the Cascade Range in Oregon, all of Idaho and all of Montana. I make no other claims of being first. I also operated the largest purely Tropical fish shop in the state of Idaho at that time. That is a matter of Public Record, repeated several times in articles written in the Lewiston Morning Tribune, a leading daily Idaho newspaper. They found it interesting and I had dropped out of high school to keep up the shop.
I make no other claims of being the first.
I bred one pair of wild Royal Blues and 2 different pairs of wild Browns.
I did not breed any tank raised discus until my F1 wild fry grew up and began spawning.
Not long after(1970) I did acquire some juvenile nickel sized brown Discus which had been imported from SE Asia by the now defunct tropical fish importer, Long Beach Fisheries,Inc. located in Los Angeles, CA. Those were the second tank raised Discus I ended up breeding. I was able to raise and sell enough Discus to allow me to attend LCSC three years without having to hold down a real job. I am surely the first of their students to have ever done that.
I hope that clarifies my statements of fact.
The facts are that there were mostly breeders in the Asian communities of Seattle, WA and Portland, OR who were also breeding Discus. I only saw plain colored Brown Discus being raised by any of these breeders and the breeding pairs were tank raised discus. None of them were breeding any wild discus at that time. I tracked down every breeder of discus in the Pacific Northwest USA I could find to meet with them and compare notes.
I am only familiar with the ancient Discus history of the Pacific Northwest although I was aware of some others within the Asian community in San Francisco were producing a fairly large number of tank raised discus contemporaneous with my own efforts. Maybe some were spawning wild discus, too. I simply am not that familiar with what others were or were not doing outside the areas I described above.
I hope I have clarified the extent of my Discus projects I had going on in those nearly 40 years ago.
Heiko is correct in his understanding that I have never claimed to be the first to ever breed Discus. To think anyone ever might have thought I made such a ridiculous claim is the most preposterous thing I have ever heard.

[Göran Ekholm]

I will never give up! But i will regret for the rest of me life that i missed Crakow! I had to work, it was panic on one of the construction sites, and i had no chans it was kayos.
But i still need to get some juvs from me to Barbara, so if there is and one that will travel from Sweden to Crakow please PM me,

I will some day breed Heckels! If i live that long!:p
But i really must admit i hate them some days!!!!!

[Moon]

I will never give up! But i will regret for the rest of me life that i missed Crakow! I had to work, it was panic on one of the construction sites, and i had no chans it was kayos.
But i still need to get some juvs from me to Barbara, so if there is and one that will travel from Sweden to Crakow please PM me,

I will some day breed Heckels! If i live that long!:p
But i really must admit i hate them some days!!!!!

I do agree with you. Keeping discus is a love/hate relationship with me too. When I go down to my fish room and all of the discus come to greet me I'm happy. When one or two are in the back corner of the tank looking miserable I.m not happy.
Recently, my group of Heckels have not been quite normal. Sometimes they eat all the food and on some days just hang togather and won't eat. Not quite sure what to do.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Moon,
My Heckels do the same thing. I think they are a naturally bipolar species. They range from being as tame as a discus can be to cowering in fright over something as simple as putting on a dark jacket from the opposite side of the room. I have come to accept that they will have their off days. Their bad days always pass.

Hi to Goran,
Goran, your pairs of Heckels are beautiful. I have been able to get Heckels to the point of cleaning potential spawning sites and in all other ways, acting like a mated pair in the past and with my present group of 10. Mine have always been in lightly planted tanks with pieces of wood. The "pairs" have either chosen clay pots containing large specimen of E. bleheri Amazon Swords or smooth pieces of bog wood as the sites the guarded and cleaned. I have had them make trial runs as if spawning but just like everyone else, I have never had an actual spawn.
If enough of us keep trying long enough, someday someone will make the necessary breakthroughs and produce some tank bred Heckels. I hope it happens in my remaining lifetime. I wonder what will happen first, successful breeding and raising pure bred wild Heckels or man on Mars?

[brewmaster15]

Heiko,

Note: I am happy Al is taking this BS off. :confused::confused::confused:

For the record... I interceded in this thread Over a Year ago when it went off track..


to quote...04-09-2007, 09:40 AM (see post 23 this thread
to be honest it doesn't matter to me either way....what I do I know is this thread went way of track Larry and it started when you deliberately took a pot shot at another forum member that had not even posted in the thread yet... I don't know how you expected it to play out...but it has played out exactly how comments attacking others play out on a forum... with a return attacking comment.

I think its time for you and Shin-shin to take it off the forum.....This is not going to go anywhere but downhill from here....

I'd rather not lock this thread, but I will if need be.


Thanks,
al again...please note that this was last year.

If you have other concerns of how Our Forum is Run...please feel free to discuss them with me anytime by PM. Thank you.

-al

[William Palumbo]

WOW!...Hard to beleive I started this thread over a year ago...Where does the time go? I have seen a lot of nice Heckles on here and was intresting hearing about the different ways Heckles are trying to be bred...from all over the world!...We are probally complicating something that could be easier than we think. There is probally just a slight trigger to take our Heckles from cleaning the spawning site...to actual eggs being laid. Could be something as simple as varying water levels, or photo periods...but harder to know at what lengths to take them, or what combination to execute them in. I read an old article once about a hobbyist trying to breed a certain type of catfish. He wound first begin by first lowering the tank level...turning off the lights, and with a camera strobe made it look light lightning, loud music for thunder, while he filled the tank back up with cold water , raising the water level as would happen in the wild...basically he was simulating a thunderstorm. Supposedly it worked for him. I guess we can only go so far with water chemistry and types of food before we need to move on to other areas....Bill

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear Al,

thank you very much for the clarification. You know I am really on the road (or better in the jungle of nature or the jungle of civilization and the latter is not so much my cup of tea...) most of the time, therefore I cannot be with you, or better forums all the time. But I must give you some credit, and I have told the same to many people on my exhibitions and lectures around the globe, those who ask me, that simplydiscus is one of the best forums worldwide. And I also think Larry does a very good job... He knows discus and other fishes.

I also must tell you, that I am not so difficult to reach, as there are cell.phones and internet now already in the deep jungle areas (many wireless), but still, if I get a advice by e-mail of a thread people asking (to me or some wild) questions, I can answer fast. This is been done with several forums and works very well. maybe you want to think about it.

Anyhow, thanks again and all the very best, and keep up the good work

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com
PS: later on there will be some wild Cuipeuá biotopes on my website, authentic biotopes I decorated at Interzoo with details of the description of the orginal discus habitat

[brewmaster15]

Dear Al,

thank you very much for the clarification. You know I am really on the road (or better in the jungle of nature or the jungle of civilization and the latter is not so much my cup of tea...) most of the time, therefore I cannot be with you, or better forums all the time. But I must give you some credit, and I have told the same to many people on my exhibitions and lectures around the globe, those who ask me, that simplydiscus is one of the best forums worldwide. And I also think Larry does a very good job... He knows discus and other fishes.

I also must tell you, that I am not so difficult to reach, as there are cell.phones and internet now already in the deep jungle areas (many wireless), but still, if I get a advice by e-mail of a thread people asking (to me or some wild) questions, I can answer fast. This is been done with several forums and works very well. maybe you want to think about it.

Anyhow, thanks again and all the very best, and keep up the good work

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com (http://www.aquapress-bleher.com)
PS: later on there will be some wild Cuipeuá biotopes on my website, authentic biotopes I decorated at Interzoo with details of the description of the orginal discus habitat

Thank you Heiko!:) We try hard to be a good resource for discus enthusiasts everywhere....I appreciate your kind words here.

I will think about your suggestion...maybe we can talk about it further.

Thanks again,
al

[ShinShin]

Heiko,

I never claimed to spawn wild discus, much less be the first to do so, nor do I recall ever saying anything about you and black discus. You are very confused, man. Perhaps Larry W. said something about that. He is Apistomaster. In my day, I was known as the LoveMaster Maybe you have heard about me, and that has caused this confusion ;).

While I never would challenge your knowledge on wild discus, as you probabally already read on the thread regarding which wild discus book is the best, I basically said your book had no equals, I do strongly disagree with you insistance that Heckels and Heckel crosses are rarely bred. That is a totally ignorant statement on your behalf. Pictures, as you want, are located right here in the Sponsor section. Ray Kosaka sold them regularly when he owned Discus Hawaii. Dennis Hardenberger (a member here at one time) purchsed some and successfully spawned these. My friend, Shaifullah Yeng, who graced me with an autographed copy of his 2nd book Penang Discus 2nd edition as a gift, has pictures in his book, as does Degen. Alberto, a member here, spawned wild Heckels. F1 Heckels have been offered several times on Aquabid.com. These were F1's spawnwed by Ken Davis, also a member here.

I asked Shaifullah Yeng and Ray Kosaka (by the way, they both confirmed the regular spawning of Heckels, and Heckel crosses in Asia) why they weren't more common and both said there was no market for them. So, I have to disagree at how lucrative these discus would be. While your expertise in wild discus in their natural habitat may be unquestioned, in this area, it is very suspect. Here, the Asian breeders are your master.

Regards,
Mat, the other Larry

[Apistomaster]

Heiko,

I never claimed to spawn wild discus, much less be the first to do so, nor do I recall ever saying anything about you and black discus. You are very confused, man. Perhaps Larry W. said something about that. He is Apistomaster. In my day, I was known as the LoveMaster Maybe you have heard about me, and that has caused this confusion ;).

Snip


Regards,
Mat, the other Larry

Mat,
I thought it was settled that we would spare the sarcasm and just stick to what we know and you really don't know me and have no business implying I made any statements that I have not. Please exercise some restraint and respect.
Thank you.

[plecocicho]

It may be tru that spawning of heckel and hybrid discus has hapenned, but the spawning of two heckels with eachother is rare. I doubt that the absence of true F1 heckels is due to nonexistant market for such discus. I doubt so much, that i will do a poll on this subforum.

[plecocicho]

Edit, i think that can be done only by the moderator group,right? Can then the group moderator please do this poll: Would you buy true (not hybrid) F1 heckel discus if it was for sale?

[William Palumbo]

I would buy F1 Heckle fry. From most pics I see in books...the fry from the Heckle crosses never look good...from the shape, to the central bar...never seen any crosses that looked like "real" Heckles...therefore I would not purchase fry from a Heckle cross...Bill

[wgtaylor]

Ok, for some Heckle breeding info.....I found this web site very interesting. Yoshito Ikeda in Japan has been breeding Heckle males and females. He doesn't seem to breed Heckle to Heckle only Heckle crosses. He has some good documentation complete with pictures. Maybe Heiko can say if these are true Heckle but they look good to me. Wild Blues and Greens are also documented. I had to do a lot of digging to get water parameters and kept a spread sheet which I have included a picture. Here are three links to Yoshito's site. Long links hope they work. The translation to English is not perfect. Bill



Original Japanese Only Site
http://homepage2.nifty.com/discus-breeding/

Translated Japanese to English
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage2.nifty.com%2Fdis cus-breeding%2Fpage3-breed.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Translated Japanese to Spanish
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage2.nifty.com%2Fdis cus-breeding%2Fpage3-breed.html&sl=ja&tl=es&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[William Palumbo]

Cool link Bill...Too bad they do not show what the fry turn out to be...or did I miss it?...Bill

[plecocicho]

Bill
this links corroborate my claim (and Heikos) about breeding of heckels.
William i meant heckelxheckel, not heckelx(hybrid, wild green, wild blue).

[wgtaylor]

Bill Palumbo, click on the number 1 - 17 and it wll bring up another page with info and pictures of fry.

plecocicho, This is only breeding info for wilds. Yoshito chose to breed Heckle crosses. It may be the Heckle females don't like Heckle males, I could'nt say. Bill

[William Palumbo]

Thanx Bill...I see it now. I figured I missed it. Did not know to click on the numbers. So far I do see a lot of nicely shaped fry...Bill

[wgtaylor]

It is not my intention to support any debates only provide Heckle breeding info. It appears Yoshito uses the dry season method, isolating the spawning tank and letting the ph drop until spawning activity starts. Another person to do this was JimmyL. He posted on Discus as a Hobby how he spawned many Heckles that way. I suppose you could e-mail either of these two to see if they had success with Heckle to Heckle. Just getting a female Heckle to spawn is a step in the right direction.:) Bill

[Apistomaster]

Seems like we could add the Heckel breeding topic to religion and politics as one of those really polarizing subjects.

I think it's clear from my posts that I agree that successful spawns of Heckel X Heckel are few to non-existent, yet I stop short of believing it has never been done. There are too many skilled aquarists, who have operated silently behind the scenes for decades, for me to assert that it has never been accomplished. It is logically impossible to prove it has not been done.
It is possible to observe that pure tank raised Heckels are not currently available in the USA.
It is a fact that Heckel Discus are imported in large numbers to Japan and Japanese aquarists want them badly enough to pay prices we would find exorbitant. That speaks for itself that this species of Discus is commercially viable in Japan, at least.

I am comfortable with the concept that pure bred tank raised Heckel Discus would have commercial value in the West. I for one, would sure be interested in having some and believe I'm not alone in this.

I have noticed that what little pre-spawn behaviors like potential spawning site cleaning and false spawning runs I have observed by a couple pairs of my Heckels have a close correlation with simulated dry seasons followed by generous RO water changes. There's no doubt, in my mind, that this is a part of the puzzle, in inducing a female to produce ripe eggs. They have also shown a strong preference for choosing smooth sections of wood to clean.

But there is still something missing to the solution of finding an approach that finally leads to repeated successful breeding of pure wild Heckels. Hopefully, those who figure it out will be willing to share the details of their successful methods so they may be subjected to peer review and experimentation. The scientific method is the most powerful tool mankind has invented for answering questions or solving problems relating to the physical universe. It has the beauty of being free of personal bias or opinion.

Wild Blue/Browns respond well to a similar regime simulating the dry then wet season but they are a pretty accommodating species of wild discus in the first place.

Breeding any species of wild Discus is good experience to use as a stepping stone. I think spawning wild Greens is a step closer to spawning Heckel Discus than wild Blues since they
also prefer more extreme water conditions and a diet more similar to Heckel Discus than Blues. They seem to be a little more demanding Discus species than Blue/Browns.

[Göran Ekholm]

Give me a PM on where and from how and i will bay all f1 heckels any of you can produce.

[Apistomaster]

Give me a PM on where and from how and i will bay all f1 heckels any of you can produce.

Hi Goran,
That's a good one. Prepare for the deafening roar of silence.

[wgtaylor]

Here is a direct quote from JimmyL, extracted from Discus As A Hobby web site. If this helps anyone that's great. If you want more information or pictures you will have to contact JimmyL. He appears to be very helpful. Bill
Quote

It's hard to say....Depending on where your Heckle's came from. I bred the Nuhmunda Heckels at Ph-4.5 and the Medeiras at 6.8 they varies in different regions. Blue face is harder to breed too. They all need low conductivity as low as 60 microseimen. Ph crash is very easy. I always use a central system with large volume 10 x 30gallon tanks in series with total capacity of 300 gallons to keep ph stable. I first isolate the breeder with no water change and let the Ph drop by itself until they have spawning activity and lock it there by join in the breeding tank with the central system at the same PH to keep it stable. You have to find your own range.
Jimmy

[ShinShin]

Larry,

Reading Heikos's post, it is obvious he is confused as he addresses both of us, using both our names as if we are the same person. As I said, "perhaps" which means - possibaly, but not certainly; maybe - taken directly from a dictionary. Perhaps implies nothing, and implicates nothing, so lighten up. However, Heiko is correct in a couple of references that he made about you.

You did claim on another forum that you were the first to breed wild discus. Not the first in a certain area, but the FIRST. You had those poor fools thinking you were Jack Wattley's mentor. I read the posts. Someone here gave me the link to it so that I could read it. So denying that only makes you look worse. The black reference discus Heiko mentioned can be found on this forum if someone cares to search it out. You in fact did refer to a picture in his book.

Now, I have spoken to a couple of people who make money breeding, buying, and selling discus. There is NO market worth exlpoiting in tank raised Heckel discus or their crosses. None. PERIOD. You are correct in that Japan dealers pay top dollar for wild Heckels, as they do for wild RSG's, wild red eyed Curiperas, and other red type wild discus. They don't pay this for domestics, Heckels or otherwise.

We've been through this before. You and Heiko claiming quite incorrectly that Asian breeders have not mastered the Heckel. You were given names and books to reference. Call Ray Kosaka yourself. He's listed in Honolulu. Call Yeng in Malaysia, Nura Discus. Hell, there was some kid in Portland, Oregon who used to import and sell discus. He had a tankful of them and couldn't make any money on them. I personally saw a large tank of them myself. Contact Ken Davis, fish farm usa. He had been selling them the last couple of months on Aquabid.com. If they are that much in demand, why did it talk so long to get rid of a spawn? Call him. He's in Georgia. He imports fish for resale. Look under cichlids on AB. He's always there, or I'll personally help you contact him. But, by you contacting these people, your delusion will be killed.

I personally have no interest in this thread. Had not Heiko mentioned me, I would not have even given it a look. Someone gave me a heads-up about it. So, you live in your little world of whatever it is, and Heiko can go on being all about Heiko, as he always is. Okay?

Mat

[plecocicho]

Post pics that prove your wiev.And claim, that NO ONE would not buy f1 true discus is WRONG. If no one would buy f1 or f2, etc wild discus strain, why are there so many breders, that sell F1,F2,F3,etc offsprings?

[Apistomaster]

Ken's fish Farm has had some really pretty Heckel hybrids for sale for some time and they are very tempting fish. But hybrids aren't purebreds which is what the Heckel project is all about.

Heckel Discus and Altum Angels share much in common regarding the murky circumstances surrounding accounts of their captive breeding as well as both species being somewhat extremophiles with regard to their preferred environmental conditions.

Both represent extremely worthy challenges for the skilled breeders in the world who are interested in them. We will let the marketplace decide whether their progeny will have any monetary value, as it always does. I do know that many of us who prefer wild caught discus would be willing to find aquarium space for some TR Heckels just as we have for F1 Blues and Greens. It's pretty nice to get an opportunity to get essentially wild specimens that have been raised in captivity which are free of the usual parasites.

Obviously there are many of us discus lovers who prefer wild type fish over domesticated strains but I'm sure we will always be in the minority.
Domestics will continue rule the discus market for the foreseeable future.

In the final analysis what matters is the fish and not the personalities of the Discus specialist.

[ShinShin]

Larry,

Ken Davis, Fish Farms USA, had F1 Heckel for sale on Aquabid.com. He spawned and raised the fish himself, wild Heckel to wild Heckel. These fish were on AB for awhile. They did not move that quickly, obviously, as they passed through several times. He posted his accomplishment here, I believe. Perhaps I read it on the NADA forum.

I am not necessarily talking Heckel to Heckel in my other comments. Heiko insists that hybrids are not common, as you yourself have also said. I am saying you both are wrong, that in fact, they were quite common in Asia, but because of the lack profit due to the lack of interest, not many are raising selling them. As far as what the Heckel project is all about, it about whatever we want it to be, not what you say it is.

Plecocicho,

I offered you sources to see pics and actually speak to people. There are pics in the sponsors section.If you are truly interested in discus, do some of the work to know, don't depend on me to do it for you. I said nothing of people not interested in F1 wild discus in general. I said that there is no money in F1 Heckels. Heckels have a very narrow band of followers, and in fact, are the least popular discus sold in the USA. All you need to do to find that statement's truth is to talk to some wholesalers and retailers.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Zzzzz. wake me up when someone who has has first had experience breeding wild discus begins posting.

[brewmaster15]

Zzzzz. wake me up when someone who has has first had experience breeding wild discus begins posting. wake up then! and smell the egos Burning. ...this is accomplishing nothing.:mad:

Enough...:mad: If we spent half the time exploring the similarities and differences between heckels, and non-heckel and documenting them with FACTs... as we do on bragging rights and personal OPINIONS stated as facts about what others have done and not done there might actually be some F1's availible in the near future...

Bill,(wgtaylor)...thanks for the constructive facts and info.... thanks also to everyone else for your positive contributions and civil replies.

This Threads locked pending a cooling off period to be determined....

-al