How should I start off??

[greyhoundfan]

I just rec'd my plants today. 10 Anubias Barteri, 7 Anubias Nana and 6 Java narrow leaf. I'll be affixing them to my driftwood tomm and start my 75 G running. As you can tell I chose low light, low tech plants. Just attach to wood and watch them grow.

I QT'd plants in PP dip. I'll do one more tomm before I attatch to driftwood. Since the tank will have no fish in it, what will the plants need to have as nutrients as they settle in? My plan is to wait a month and order some Cardinal Tetras and Rummy Nose tetras..(If Bill still have some left).. total number of dither fish would be at a 100. Than after a few mos. the tank should be ready for my BKs.

I feel that this is a good time line, I'm just not sure if I should be supplementing the plants with any nutrients until I put my dithers in there.

[Ed13]

I preffer the bleach, never have done the PP to know which is better

The basics, Nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus and Iron. At what concentrations will depend on the water if a Co2 source is present and light. Normally nitrogen and phosphorus are provided by food and fish so when they go in you'll need to reevaluate.

BTW, nice plant selections.
Are all going in wood? The same piece?
The fern usually looks nicer at a higher eye level than the anubias in my opinnion

[ezeke1]

I like your lowtech approach and that's what Im doing as well! For ferts, just go with Seachem's Flourish Excel for the macro nutrients. I think Seachem also has another solution for the micro and you should be set.

[greyhoundfan]

thanks for the feed back Ed and David..

Ed, what is your bleach solution mix? how long do you soak your plants in it? I am planning on attaching all the plants onto the driftwood.

I'm hoping it will come out half as nice as Dan's set up..
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=50294

[Polar_Bear]

Firstly, Seachem Flourish Excel is NOT a fertilizer, it is a carbon source ONLY. Reid, with the plants you have chosen, not knowing how much light you have makes it impossible to guide you. If you have very low light, use no fertilizer at all, the fish will provide everything the plants need. Even with the plants you have chosen the lights that came with your tank are almost certainly not strong enough. Since you have a 75 gallon my suggestion would be to go to a Home Depot type store and buy a shop light for $8, make sure it has an electronic ballast. Two T-8 lamps cost about $8 also (it doesn't matter what color temperature), buy what is on sale or cheapest, add a timer and you are out of the store for less than $30. This will provide all of the light you need. If you feel that you have to add fertilizer, which you don't, go here; http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/store/aquaticplantfood.php purchase the "PMDD Pre-Mix", use it at about 1 teaspoon per week ONLY, you will need no other suppliments.

[greyhoundfan]

Thanks PB.. at least you confirmed my set up. I'm not using tank lights, I am using a shop light from Home Depot. Holds two T8s 34 watts a piece..:D

[Kindredspirit]

Hey You! Good Luck, Reid! I loved Dan's set up ~ I so recall that picture:) Take some pictures as you go along here!


I am excited for ya!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[mmorris]

Reid, I'm trying to understand your chronology. You are waiting a month before you add any fish and so I assume the tank isn't cycled yet. If you are moving discus you already have to the new tank, wouldn’t it make sense to add the filter media from the discus tank and then add the discus? You can quarantine the dither fish in another tank. Or, perhaps better, add some of the media, add the dither fish, quarantine a month and then add the discus? I don’t understand why you are waiting a month to add fish if you have media. If you are concerned about organisms in the media killing the dither fish, then that will happen anyway when you add the discus. I must be missing something here. Why buy plants a month before the fish? Martha

[greyhoundfan]

Martha, I actually like your approach better. From what I've read I thought it was best to let the plants establish themselves first before adding fish. Maybe I can shorten it a bit. I was planning on using existing filter media. I prefer to add my dithers first since they will have a better chance of not ending up as snacks for my discus vs. putting in my discus first than dithers. I am going to wait at least a month to observe and QT the dithers before I add my discus.. Hope that makes sense.

I didn't make myself clear as this is my first semi-planted tank venture.

Thanks Marie.. I literally spent hours looking at Dan's and Scolley's pics and I just had to do it.

[mmorris]

I wouldn't bother waiting at all! I can't see any reason whatsoever for establishing plants before adding fish. Order those dithers today and have fun with that! :D Martha

[poconogal]

I wouldn't bother waiting at all! I can't see any reason whatsoever for establishing plants before adding fish. Order those dithers today and have fun with that! :D Martha
Hi Reid, I agree with Martha... I added my plants to my existing Discus tank after I cleaned them with a bleach solution and rinsed well. I'd get those Cardinals right away and let the plants and the fish get acclimated for a few weeks, then add the Discus. I did add my Cardinals to my tank several weeks before the Discus though, for the same reason you stated.

[Ed13]

Reid I do recommend your first idea. Actually is the only way I do planted tanks and reefs too. Plant the tank let the plants established, add cleaners, then tankmates and last the main fish.

Why? The plants usually arrive from the plant nursuries in an emerged form or suffered damage when they were pruned or shipped. Adding fish first or at the same time means their are going to be nutrients in the water that they won't be able to efficient;y remove, so there is a big chance of an algae bloom. Not to mention damage the fish may cause themselves by uprooting or touching the plants

True, in your setup it may not matter much as the plants you chose are not nutrient hogs, but the emerged growth part may still apply.

I also recommend the Seachem products for a simple tank otherwise you might as well go DIY. Flourish and Trace, maybe excel will do the trick, I use to buy them separetly(N,P,K,Fe) and adjust accordingly, but if you need to do this DIY is a better option

Two, 32w bulbs sounds perfect for this tank. I would choose at least one of the bulbs, prefferably the two, in the 6500k still the cheap ones. This bulb is more for your eyes(not too yellow) as basically anyone will grow them 3000k-6500k

BTW in case you were wondering, in reef tanks I go; rock; sand unless going Barebottom;. cleaners and working fish then; feather dusters, corals, clams etc; then the main fish

[ezeke1]

Firstly, Seachem Flourish Excel is NOT a fertilizer, it is a carbon source ONLY. Reid, with the plants you have chosen, not knowing how much light you have makes it impossible to guide you. If you have very low light, use no fertilizer at all, the fish will provide everything the plants need. Even with the plants you have chosen the lights that came with your tank are almost certainly not strong enough. Since you have a 75 gallon my suggestion would be to go to a Home Depot type store and buy a shop light for $8, make sure it has an electronic ballast. Two T-8 lamps cost about $8 also (it doesn't matter what color temperature), buy what is on sale or cheapest, add a timer and you are out of the store for less than $30. This will provide all of the light you need. If you feel that you have to add fertilizer, which you don't, go here; http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/store/aquaticplantfood.php purchase the "PMDD Pre-Mix", use it at about 1 teaspoon per week ONLY, you will need no other suppliments.

I mistakenly understood excel as a source of ferts and from what I've read of other's tanks, most who go lowtech only dose this are typically successful in keeping the plants. Sorry Reid, I wasn't trying to give you bad advice :(

[tpl*co]

With those kind of plants you really don't need to add anything at all except the fish!

I've got anubias, crypts and fern in my tank and I don't dose or dose only if I see any yellowing on the anubias.

This is low tech, low light tank remember? :);)

Adding all that is asking for algae problems.

Tina

[greyhoundfan]

Ed, thanks for the feedback.

Dave, I appreciate your feedback too.. No worries..

Tina, thanks for the reminder. I'll only add ferts if I see yellowing as you mentioned.

[Polar_Bear]

True, in your setup it may not matter much as the plants you chose are not nutrient hogs, but the emerged growth part may still apply.

Actually it won't, the reason being that Anubias are terrestrial, not aquatic, plants.
I should have added this in my previous post, while Excel is not a fertilizer it is a nice adjunct to growing plants, especially in a non-CO2 tank, since it will provide carbon to the plants that they may otherwise not have easily available.

[Ed13]

Actually it won't, the reason being that Anubias are terrestrial, not aquatic, plants.
I should have added this in my previous post, while Excel is not a fertilizer it is a nice adjunct to growing plants, especially in a non-CO2 tank, since it will provide carbon to the plants that they may otherwise not have easily available.
Larry you are right Anubias are basically terrestrial plants that grow so slow thy don't realize they are under water. But still there is a slight difference in their emerged and submerged forms.

Perhaps I'm overthinking this whole setup, chances are that waterchanges alone may provide enough for this plants IN YOUR SETUP.
Maybe we are all right, but one thing is for sure we all have our ways of doing things.:)
Me, the cards would have been here in Q in a separate tank. The plants would have been in the main tank already alone for up to a month, and any ferts or light schedule would be adjusted by their response.

One thing though, just because anubias, crypts and ferns grow perfectly fine under low light conditions doesn't mean they can't grow under high light, especially the anubias that "look" way different under high light

I've used Excel plenty of times, but in larger tanks a DIY CO2 setup is always more economical and more efficient, $2 dollars worth of yeast, sugar and Baking Soda may last you 3-4 weeks in your case Reid and it will still be low budget/low tech

[mmorris]

The plants usually arrive from the plant nursuries in an emerged form or suffered damage when they were pruned or shipped. Adding fish first or at the same time means their are going to be nutrients in the water that they won't be able to efficient;y remove, so there is a big chance of an algae bloom. Not to mention damage the fish may cause themselves by uprooting or touching the plants

Ed, according to your reasoning, adding fish to a tank without plants should cause one heck of an algae bloom! Yet it very seldom does. People who do adequate wc on tanks do not see a build-up of nutrients that might stimulate algae production. I have added plants to established tanks for years and I have yet to blame a fish for damaging the plants. Of course, I avoid plant eaters and those fish that dig. I seriously don't think tetras are going to do any damage to Anubias, or most any other plant for that matter. Martha

[Ed13]

Ed, according to your reasoning, adding fish to a tank without plants should cause one heck of an algae bloom! Yet it very seldom does. People who do adequate wc on tanks do not see a build-up of nutrients that might stimulate algae production. I have added plants to established tanks for years and I have yet to blame a fish for damaging the plants. Of course, I avoid plant eaters and those fish that dig. I seriously don't think tetras are going to do any damage to Anubias, or most any other plant for that matter. Martha

I accepted that my reasoning deviated from the scope of Reid's tank!;)
Also read it carefully I said they won't be able to EFFICIENTLY remove nutrients from the water so their is a big CHANCE of an algae bloom, never said IT WILL CAUSE ONE HECK OF AN ALGAE BLOOM, those are your words not mine, lol

Algae Blooms after setups in completely new PLANTED tanks(not tanks with plants, actual setups were plants aquascape and hardscape comprise 75%-100% of the clients approval) are far more common than you see or hear until balance is achieved (not just light, CO2, nutrients but plant mass and their metabolic potential and nutrient comsumption), even tanks done by Amano and other proffesionals, its just that we normally don't get to see that. I'm not even counting algae spores and strands arriving already in the pots, roots or leaves of plants.

Also remember that most planted tanks receive 1 Wc a week at most and normally no water is change in the first month is these planted tanks just so the plants can recuperate from damage, establish themselves and are ready to begin prospering by the time the fish are added(creating an eco-system first). So nitrifiers and other "good bacteria are irrelevant. Thats why discus often don't belong in some small setups(under 75g) and in some aquascapes.

As far as fish damaging plants, seen it happen to often with soft delicate plants. Eusteralis stellata arrives very delicate, so does riccia myriophilums, cabombas and glossostigmas to name a few. Some like Gouramis are too hard on Myriophilum and cabomba spec, Angels eating Hygrophilias and Bushynose eating echinodorus etc even large rainbow fish, colombian tetras, congo tetras and bleeding hearts too rough on leaves

Between 2005-2007 I've set up and maintained at least a couple of dozen planted tanks so I had the pleasure/discomfort of a whole lot of different setups in a short time with a ton of variables between them, as you would imagine this is were my practices stem from, not to mention my own tanks and reading other people experiences

[mmorris]

I accepted that my reasoning deviated from the scope of Reid's tank!;)
Also read it carefully I said they won't be able to EFFICIENTLY remove nutrients from the water so their is a big CHANCE of an algae bloom, never said IT WILL CAUSE ONE HECK OF AN ALGAE BLOOM, those are your words not mine, lol

Algae Blooms after setups in completely new PLANTED tanks(not tanks with plants, actual setups were plants aquascape and hardscape comprise 75%-100% of the clients approval) are far more common than you see or hear until balance is achieved (not just light, CO2, nutrients but plant mass and their metabolic potential and nutrient comsumption), even tanks done by Amano and other proffesionals, its just that we normally don't get to see that. I'm not even counting algae spores and strands arriving already in the pots, roots or leaves of plants.

Also remember that most planted tanks receive 1 Wc a week at most and normally no water is change in the first month is these planted tanks just so the plants can recuperate from damage, establish themselves and are ready to begin prospering by the time the fish are added(creating an eco-system first). So nitrifiers and other "good bacteria are irrelevant. Thats why discus often don't belong in some small setups(under 75g) and in some aquascapes.

As far as fish damaging plants, seen it happen to often with soft delicate plants. Eusteralis stellata arrives very delicate, so does riccia myriophilums, cabombas and glossostigmas to name a few. Some like Gouramis are too hard on Myriophilum and cabomba spec, Angels eating Hygrophilias and Bushynose eating echinodorus etc even large rainbow fish, colombian tetras, congo tetras and bleeding hearts too rough on leaves


You state that if plants are unable to efficiently remove nutrients then there is a big chance of an algae bloom. Therefore, according to your reasoning, tanks without any plants at all must have an even bigger chance of an algae bloom! Your point still doesn't hold here. I am well aware of algae issues, of course, but waiting a month to add fish is not going to avoid that problem. It still seems pointless to advise someone with anubias and soon, tetras, to wait a month to add the fish. What do you advise someone to do about necessary nutrients in the meantime? In lieu of fish, fertilize? Do you actually see any real reason here why he shouldn't add tetras now? This time, let's not deviate. Martha

[Ed13]

I already accepted my reasoning deviated from Reid's proposed setup, don't really know what else to say!!



You state that if plants are unable to efficiently remove nutrients then there is a big chance of an algae bloom. Therefore, according to your reasoning, tanks without any plants at all must have an even bigger chance of an algae bloom!

Tanks without plants usually have an increase in water changes and rely heavily in nitrifiers, that's why they don't have algae issues. But you are right tanks without plants have an even higher chance for an algae bloom, especially those cycling, but they lack the most important part for algae to thrive LIGHT, so they rarely develop algae. Put a light source over a cycling tank fresh or saltwater and see what happens!



I am well aware of algae issues, of course, but waiting a month to add fish is not going to avoid that problem. It still seems pointless to advise someone with anubias and soon, tetras, to wait a month to add the fish. What do you advise someone to do about necessary nutrients in the meantime? In lieu of fish, fertilize?



When I said that I was merely generalizing my reasons for not using fish in after the plants have established, the one month was just a timeframe its not set in stone. Nutrient consumption was just one of the reasons, plant recovery was another. I already replied that in this case nutrient consumption may not apply but plant recovery may. Along with anubias he purchased ferns which is grow emerged will have to adapt to the submerged form. In that transition the old leaves will start producing the new plantlets and eventually will fall so that new underwater leaves can grow from thee rhyzome. At this time even small fish will break off the leaves sending them through out the tank.
I already said than in his case I was over thinking it and that water changes alone may cover the needs of the plants he chose



Do you actually see any real reason here why he shouldn't add tetras now? This time, let's not deviate. Martha

YES, AND A BIG ONE that apparently you missed, the tank is not cycled yet;)
I already what I would do, ME, not what he should do;)

Me, the cards would have been here in Q in a separate tank. The plants would have been in the main tank already alone for up to a month, and any ferts or light schedule would be adjusted by their response.


Quite honestly I am a little dissapointed(not angry though) Martha, seems you don't whant to respect my ways and it reads as if you basically wanted to disagree with me, many things you replied I had already explained or taken back

[mmorris]

Ed, I suggested he use media from an established tank. Java is pretty tough stuff and neither plant can be expected to do much in a month. I disagree with your reasoning, certainly. `Respect' has nothing to do with it. Its pretty simple, really. He has some tough plants. He has media. He has (or will have) tetras that do little harm to plants, especially these. Toss them together! :D
Martha

[poconogal]

I purchased the same plants as Reid purchased, Anubias and Java Fern. I also have Moss Balls as well. After a bleach bath and rinsing, I potted the Anubias and Java Fern in plain gravel and put them in my existing Discus tank. I have a BD that eats Anubias leaves and was also munching on the Java Fern. I discovered this about a week after putting the plants in the tank. Anubias are very tough, and I think Java Fern might be even tougher (I recently removed the Java Fern and put them in a smaller tank with no fish and then decided to pull the heater. They have had no light and cold water for a few months and are still alive and green!) I now have Anubias "bushes" since they have done so well. If a Discus chewing on my then newly potted plant leaves did not cause any harm, I don't see where there'd be any problem putting Cardinals (which I have and they have never bothered the plants at all) and plants together immediately. I've also never fertilized as the Discus are doing an excellent job of this themselves. :D

[Ringo]

Connie, how much bleach is used for the bleach bath? How long do you keep the plants in it? Thanks for any info.

John

[alxjss]

I did a bleach bath, and still had those nasty mylasian snails, and it looked like the plants didn't like it. I had to yank them anyway...:confused:

[poconogal]

Connie, how much bleach is used for the bleach bath? How long do you keep the plants in it? Thanks for any info.

John
John, here's a link to a thread which gives the parts bleach to water. It also gives info on using Alum on plants too. When doing a bleach bath, its important to keep the roots out of the solution, and certain plants may not be able to tolerate bleach, those with more delicate leaves.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=44713&highlight=quarantine+plants

[poconogal]

I did a bleach bath, and still had those nasty mylasian snails, and it looked like the plants didn't like it. I had to yank them anyway...:confused:

You must have had some eggs on the plants, I guess. Just the bath won't get rid of all of them, hand washing each leaf, top and bottom, and stems helps.

[Polar_Bear]

Me, the cards would have been here in Q in a separate tank. The plants would have been in the main tank already alone for up to a month, and any ferts or light schedule would be adjusted by their response.

I agree with this totally. It also gives the plant's roots time to adhere to the driftwood before large fish start knocking them off.

[Ringo]

It sounds like using Alum may be the best method for new plants. Any ideas were I can puchase some from??

[greyhoundfan]

Ed, Martha, PB..thanks for the feedback and Connie.. You folks have been more than helpful. Certainly a lot more feedback than I anticipated.

Well, the least I could do is show you how the plants look.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/fishnut/plant2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/fishnut/plant1.jpg

I was really pleased with the quality of the plants I received with the exception of the narrow leaf java fern. They were a little smaller than I'd hope but I guess it'll grow.. slowly..

My anubiases are great and they all had health root systems. To their detriment, I picked the hottest part of the day to attach them to the driftwood, and they started to wilt fast.. I hastily put them on there and hoped for the best. Even if I took my time I don't think I could have done any better. I'm not an artistic person so please be gentle with my first attempt. I've read feedback about terrestrial and submerged forms.. I certainly hope that what I'm seeing now are the anubiases transitioning to their submerged form, they are starting to yellow and some of them have already lost their leaves. One good sign is that their root structures still look healthy..Nice and white.. that's a good color right?? The roots are firm and don't show signs of distress. I am not adding anything to supplement them at this time other than 8 hrs. a day of light..

Here's my light set up..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/fishnut/light1.jpg

Home Depot shop light, suspended over the tank. I can slide the light forward or backward. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

[Ed13]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/fishnut/plant2.jpg





My anubiases are great and they all had health root systems. To their detriment, I picked the hottest part of the day to attach them to the driftwood, and they started to wilt fast.. I hastily put them on there and hoped for the best.
They are nice, larger than I expected. Next time keepa spray bottle, fill it with dechlorinated water and spray the plants to keep wet. This way you'll be able to take your time.

Even if I took my time I don't think I could have done any better. I'm not an artistic person so please be gentle with my first attempt
Those this mean I can comment ;)

Ok, the small filter has to go or be hideng. If the wood structure was turned around it will cover the filter tubes;) maybe even giving the impression of the wood coming fromthe top bsck of the tank(trial and eror here) and the wood structure should not be dead center either. Some secondary wood pieces could have been used to separate the plant species or the ferns could have been tied up top in the wood and the anubias near the base and this structure lends itself to be used on concave setups( a U if you will with two peaks or two islands even if the second one is smaller). Remember Dan's tank, it portrayed layers even with just one piece of wood and that made you forget or ignore the lack of substrate

The best part its your tank and you can rearrage as you like their really is no right or wrong as long the needs are covered. So far A- for effort B+ for execution:D just kidding


I've read feedback about terrestrial and submerged forms.. I certainly hope that what I'm seeing now are the anubiases transitioning to their submerged form, they are starting to yellow and some of them have already lost their leaves. One good sign is that their root structures still look healthy..Nice and white.. that's a good color right?? The roots are firm and don't show signs of distress. I am not adding anything to supplement them at this time other than 8 hrs. a day of light..
Sure sounds like they are adapting but I'd be a little surprise if this transition was happening so fast. But yes, older emerged leaves will turn yellow and rot away while new lighter colored leaves begin to grow. the roots color might be from white to tan and even green as the rhyzome


Here's my light set up..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/fishnut/light1.jpg

Home Depot shop light, suspended over the tank. I can slide the light forward or backward. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Loving the light in its own track:thumbsup:it will leave you room for adaptability. I haven't spotted fixtures like this one in the Home Depots near me, its even got a reflector, just white boxes here:(

[Polar_Bear]

Reid,
I really like how you hung your light and especially how you fit your glass top on the tank. On the glass top, how did you overcome the center brace and isn't it a PITA when trying to catch a fish? I ask because I'm thinking of doing the same thing on a tank or two. btw I think you placed the light just about perfectly, although slightly closer to the glass would give you more light in the tank..

[mmorris]

Reid, I think the plants look great just the way you have them! If you could shove the filter behind the wood that would be good. Otherwise, you might want to think about a hob. I have some with clear intake tubes. Now, add fish! :)
Martha

[poconogal]

Reid, it looks great. Like Martha said, if you can hide the filter behind the wood, that's be even better. Get those Cards in there.. enjoy!

[pinkertd]

Nice job!! Be sure to post some more pics as growth and fish fill the tank in!

[greyhoundfan]

Reid,
I really like how you hung your light and especially how you fit your glass top on the tank. On the glass top, how did you overcome the center brace and isn't it a PITA when trying to catch a fish? ..

PB, I don't have any glass lid on the tank yet just the center brace you seen in the pic. What I plan to do is this, an idea from Diabolicle:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=50959

My glass lids will be on sliders. I hope to never have to scoop fish out of this tank. It would be a PITA. I would need to drain most of the water out.

I also dismantled this display. Instead of tieing the pieces together I shaped them into one long piece and rest the pieces in interlocking positions. It is easier to move around and remove from the tank in smaller sections. Since this is on a rack, removing one big piece of driftwood would not be possible since I only have 7" of clearance. I guess it's a good thing I haven't stocked this tank yet. The poor critters would be stressed out.