DISCUS DIEING

[robert e. hansen]

hello need help
i had 15 discus i have 9 left. i have had them for 4 months now.
two ago three died. i think thay were pluged up. thay lost there color
turned dark. did not eat and it it took them about a week to die. lost
two more about three weeks ago. die in less than 24 hours. lost one more yesterday. again less than 24 hours.

when i started the tank up i had 4 swordtail 4 angle and 15 discus.
three weeks ago i took the swordtails and the angle out.

WATER CITY
winter water PH 6.8 KH 3 GH 5
spring water PH 6,4 KH 3 GH 5
summer water PH 7.6 KH 3 GH 2 to 3

i age my water two days before useing. we went on summer water
one week before i lost two fish. i did not know untell two fish died.
then i check the water. tank went from PH 6.4 to 7.6. water drops
most of the time four a week TUE and THUR 20% each day SAT and sun 30% each day. i started the 55g tank in the spring. if i have some thing to do on the week end i drop MON, WEN, and FRI 30% each day. the two discus died two day after a water drop the one discus three day after water drop.

FOOD first feeding tetra color tropical granules.
2ND & 3ND hikari frozen blood worms and brine shrimp.
4TH gest before i put them to bed HDH veggie wafers

filters bottom filter 4 stacks 10g of gravel on top.
hot magnum
in the tank 2 peces of wood 1 old 1 new.
discus are 2 to 3 in.
thats all i can think of. hpoe some one can help
e-mail b1b2r40@yahoo.com
i gave my e-mail because i do not know were to look if you can help.
i am new thanks for your time bob

[Kindredspirit]

Bob! You did it! You figured out how to post....good for you:) I was in the chat room with you and Larry and Ryan last night...I think it was last night!

Hopefully when you come back to this thread, your thread, you will see the members here who have helped you by replying....you will see their answers....so you really do not need your email addy, but that is okay....

and I am afraid I am still may confuse you as I did in chat, Larry was most helpful as was Ryan on what a post and threads were...but....

....I think you stated you have an underground filter? With 10 gallons of gravel on it?...get rid of it! It probably has so much crap under it....They really are more of a hinder than a help, I think!

As far as how to stabilize your pH ~ someone will be along to help you with that with more experience in that area ~

Good to see you posting, Bob!:) Hang in there...


Marie ~ :balloon:

[robert e. hansen]

ok marie, the bottom filter will be gone. it pane me i got a medcal air pump metel valve,
2 1/2 in. pvc pipe jest so i could have a lot of air.
OH i also have a large pleco and 6 baby snales in my discus tank

[Kindredspirit]

it pane me i got a medcal air pump metel valve,

Robert...babe, I have no idea what that is!^^^:o I am going to be no help to you I am afraid...

Do me a favor though, do not add any more creatures to this tank okay? Nothing. Nada. Zip.

Lose that underground filter....and do wc every day, Robert. How big is this tank? Wc wc wc wc....

Add Prime while filling the tank and I will see if I can round someone up that can better assist you!


Marie ~ :balloon:

[robert e. hansen]

marie i did not add any thing the pleco and the snail have been in there

[robert e. hansen]

marie tank is 55g

[Kindredspirit]

Robert, can you test your ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates, Please? Oh..I saw that it was a 55gal! Thanks...I have a 55gal too ~

[hexed]

The under ground (bottom) filter needs to come out of the tank. You will see how much crap is caught under it. Do 50% water changes at least once a day

[robert e. hansen]

marie ammonia 0 no2 0 no3 0 all 11 of my tanks are all ways 0 0 0

[tdr1919]

You cerainly have many different variables. I would first check your water even before you take out the under gravel filter. you need to know your amonia & nitrite levels. You may even have chloramines in your water, I beleive Prime will neutralize that. Get your water stable then go forward from there.

Tom

[Kindredspirit]

Robert, are you sure your ammonia is zero?....with an undergravel filter....seems unlikely...

For four months things were fine?....now they are dying? What is your temp?

[robert e. hansen]

marim temp is 84 i check the ammonia , no2 . no3 each time fish died in that tank and i check today 0 0 0 the tes kit is new this year i have not had a bad test sence my first tank.

[robert e. hansen]

marie temp was 75 when i lost the first two. i was told to turn it up

[robert e. hansen]

i half to get up at 3 i will be checking back tomorrow

[dvarnay]

I agree with above get rid of the under gravel filter and daily water changes.

When you say they are plugged up are they bloating or getting skinny. If they are bloating epsom salts will help clean them out and it will not hurt the other fish in the tank.

Cheers
Debbie

[Kindredspirit]

When you say they are plugged up are they bloating or getting skinny.

Cheers
Debbie

Not sure he mentioned they were plugged up? I think there is a thread re that issue though!

or not ~ :)

[tbrat]

I'll give completely different advice....Do Not remove that undergraverl filter. That will surely crash you system that you have already going on there. The only way to safely remove a filter like that is to tear the whole tank down and totally redo it. Don't remove it.
Every ounce of your substrate/gravel is already a working biological filter, without the air flow that the u/g provides the good bacteria in the gravel will all die and turns to a dangerous mix.
If you have another tank you can set up first then do so and move your fish to that before taking the undergravel out.
I've ran u/g for well over 25 years on all tanks breeders and discus alike, I can only tell ya if you take that out the recourse isn't good.
This is just one persons opinion tho.

best of luck to you!
p.s. when I first started with discus I could never get my levels right...then added an undergravel filter best darn tank I got in the house now!:)

[tbrat]

One other thing I noticed with your post, you stated...

WATER CITY
winter water PH 6.8 KH 3 GH 5
spring water PH 6,4 KH 3 GH 5
summer water PH 7.6 KH 3 GH 2 to 3

seems to me that you are having too much of a ph swing which can be deadly to most fish. How to stabilize it with swings like that is beyond me...other than aging water before using, then testing the tank water and holding water before doing a water change.

as for all that crap under an undergravel filter...its what feeds the good bacteria ;) don't take it out and make sure you have plenty of air flowing thru that u/g k.

again good luck!

[t_j]

I'll give completely different advice....Do Not remove that undergraverl filter. That will surely crash you system that you have already going on there. The only way to safely remove a filter like that is to tear the whole tank down and totally redo it. Don't remove it.
Every ounce of your substrate/gravel is already a working biological filter, without the air flow that the u/g provides the good bacteria in the gravel will all die and turns to a dangerous mix.
If you have another tank you can set up first then do so and move your fish to that before taking the undergravel out.
I've ran u/g for well over 25 years on all tanks breeders and discus alike, I can only tell ya if you take that out the recourse isn't good.
This is just one persons opinion tho.

best of luck to you!
p.s. when I first started with discus I could never get my levels right...then added an undergravel filter best darn tank I got in the house now!:)


By taking out the under gravel filter should not mess up the bio in the tank. As long as he turns off or closes the valves depending on what kind of filters he has it should be fine. This way when you take the filter out and the stuff from under the gravel comes out it won't go in to your good filters. Take as much water out and fill it back up with clean water and prime and turn the filters back on I don't see any problem. You may want to move the fish during this process for safty.

For the City Water and the PH changing during seasons shouldn't have really an affect on the fish. I use city water through the seasons and a lot of other people on thiss site do also and I personaly have never had a problem it is only a small change a couple times a year. JMO/JME

[tbrat]

By taking out the under gravel filter should not mess up the bio in the tank.

The substrate(in this case due to the undergravel) is the bio filter for the tank that is how an undergravel filter works, the "crap" underneath it feeds the good bacteria...how could it not mess up the bio in the tank?....gravel/substrate by itself only not with an u/g should only be taken out at a rate 1/4 each time that you remove it to allow other filters time to keep up/catch up with the bio change in the tank, due to the bio unstability that it causes when you remove such things.
In order to remove an undergravel filter, you better remove your fish first. Cause the second that comes out along with the gravel, which again Is your bio filter at this point, you will knock everything out of aliginment, and restart a cycling process. Seen it done it and do not advise it.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=59183
from my understanding all he did was remove his gravel/substrate and did it all at once.
again like tiffany. This is just one person expierence/opinion

[Tropical Haven]

I do believe I will have to chime in here. Getting rid of the undergravel filter will not make the tank crash by itself. Whatever bacteria that is in the substrate will stay in there whether you have an undergravel or not. Let me put it this way, if I have a planted discus tank with a wet/dry filter only hooked to it my substrate will have a massive colonization of bacteria in it and that is without a undergravel. My gravel will still work on the Nitrates or Nitrites if it came to that.
Now I will agree that once that undergravel is removed you should replace it with another source of filtration whether its a sponge, canister or ect. Keeping that undergravel in the tank will do more harm than good if alot of uneaten food and detris is laying underneath it.

[Kindredspirit]

Keeping that undergravel in the tank will do more harm than good if alot of uneaten food and detris is laying underneath it.


Ya think? Take it out. Well said, Scott:)

[t_j]

I do believe I will have to chime in here. Getting rid of the undergravel filter will not make the tank crash by itself. Whatever bacteria that is in the substrate will stay in there whether you have an undergravel or not. Let me put it this way, if I have a planted discus tank with a wet/dry filter only hooked to it my substrate will have a massive colonization of bacteria in it and that is without a undergravel. My gravel will still work on the Nitrates or Nitrites if it came to that.
Now I will agree that once that undergravel is removed you should replace it with another source of filtration whether its a sponge, canister or ect. Keeping that undergravel in the tank will do more harm than good if alot of uneaten food and detris is laying underneath it.


Thank you that is what I was going for you said it better then me.

I'm pretty sure he has another filter at least I hope he does but I would turn it off or close the valves during this process to keep any of that crap that comes from the gravel filter being sucked in to the good filter or other filters.

[Kindredspirit]

Thank you that is what I was going for you said it better then me.

He sure did, Tiff:)

[tbrat]

The only way a person can conceiveabley get all the detris out of that tank due to being trapped under the u/g is by tearing down the entire system, moving the fish, and starting over fresh. Otherwise you can and will cause a major system crash.
42 tanks all filtered by an u/g that got turned upside down,(lol don't ask:(lol), all 42 went thru major spikes and other nasty stuff which was another cycling process, which is why I say the last thing a person should do with an u/g is remove it while there is still fish in there.
Again same concept with just removing gravel/substrate from a system...posted a link earlier which is an example of what happens if the proper step are not followed(ie removing substrate only a 1/4 per time and waiting at least a week till the next removal time)...another cycle maybe small or maybe large who knows for sure varies from tank to tank.
Now then with this and all else being said, I will ask a question...
How many of you are willing to take the risk of cycling/recycling a tank with discus in it?
Also within his original post he stated fairly large ph swings...all I've read on this site is that consistency(stability) with water is the best water to provide to discus. I think stabilizing his ph is still the way to go here, I'm just not the person to advise how to go about doing that since my tap water here is always a constant(and yes I use city water too).
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/ph_nochange.shtml
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/ph.shtml
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=38487
U/G filters maybe a little outdated compared to some newer things, but when established they are still hard to beat since your not adding all sorts of other "foriegn things" to filter media basket, instead you are letting the environment(in this case an aquarium) take care of itself. ;)
Nuff Said.
Again Sir I truely wish you the best of luck solving your problem, I do understand how hard it is when first starting out with these great fish and the downfalls along the way, I think most of us have been there ourselves and wouldn't wish it on another, but we are here to help when we can.
Best Regards,
brat

[t_j]

The only way a person can conceiveabley get all the detris out of that tank due to being trapped under the u/g is by tearing down the entire system, moving the fish, and starting over fresh. Otherwise you can and will cause a major system crash.Again same concept with just removing gravel/substrate from a system...posted a link earlier which is an example of what happens if the proper step are not followed(ie removing substrate only a 1/4 per time and waiting at least a week till the next removal time)...another cycle maybe small or maybe large who knows for sure varies from tank to tank.
Now then with this and all else being said, I will ask a question...
How many of you are willing to take the risk of cycling/recycling a tank with discus in it?
Also within his original post he stated fairly large ph swings...all I've read on this site is that consistency(stability) with water is the best water to provide to discus.
Best Regards,
brat

One: I personaly have recycled my tanks a number of times with new discus and have NEVER had a problem. Two: with things like hoses and gravel cleaners valves and plugs you just shut down the take(turn off all filters) move the fish and take the UGF out of the take clean the gravel with the gravel cleaner and move the rocks around to. Take out most all the water fill it back up start up the filters and let the tank run for a little and put the fish back in. Three: I have taken out gravel several different times all at once and never had an ill affect on my fish (not saying any one should do this). I also did daily gravel and water changes on my tanks. Four: his Ph levels are probably all over the place because of the UGF and not enough water changes. JME/JMO

[Kindredspirit]

Two: with things like hoses and gravel cleaners valves and plugs you just shut down the take(turn off all filters) move the fish and take the UGF out of the take clean the gravel with the gravel cleaner and move the rocks around to. Take out most all the water fill it back up start up the filters and let the tank run for a little and put the fish back in.

Yup:D


Three: I have taken out gravel several different times all at once and never had an ill affect on my fish (not saying any one should do this). I also did daily gravel and water changes on my tanks. Four: his Ph levels are probably all over the place because of the UGF and not enough water changes. JME/JMO

Three: Yup:D

Four: Yup:D



Having said that ~

tbrat ( which btw, fits you perfectly!:)....and I love it!....I have a friend I refer to as The Brat....

....you do not sound like an idiot by no means ~ and this is your experience which is greatly appreciated!:)

[robert e. hansen]

robert here yester day i could not reply. this site would not lit me. hept saying your not log in. iwas log in.

plugup skinny, no color , very dark all most black, not eating.

city water, that was tap water not tank water.

when i do a water drop i do not gest take water out and put water back in the tank.
i clean the gravel. i have a 50 foot hose hook up to the sink. almost never use.

lets talk about the fish some of the are stell the same size when i got them some 3 in.
4 in. 1 is all most 5 in. is this normal.
yesterday i drove 160 miles to a bigger city to get prime hope it is worth the drive. i also
got two 40g spong filters. two old stile corner filters. i will use a poly fill and peat in them.

i also learnd that there is a discus breader here in the dalles oregon, can't find him. his first name is steve any one know how i can find him.

thank for all the info,
robert

[Apistomaster]

The problem began by trying to grow out 15 discus in a 55 gallon tank. Many have died or have not grown as you pointed out.

Should have started with just six. Once discus have been stunted they don't resume growing. Only those that are good looking that remain should be kept. All the knife edge thin discus are as good as dead. Consider putting those out of their misery. The remaining discus will thank you for bring the stocking levels to what they should have been all along..

Well maintained under gravel filter are still a viable filter systems provided you vacuum the crud out of the gravel when you make the water changes. The dirt that does accumulate under the plates plays no role in the function of these filters. It is the end result of the nitrogen cycle to end up with mineralization and that is what is under the plates. It looks like crap but how much time does anyone spend looking at the bottoms of their tanks upside down? The bacteria that do the work form a biofilm over the surface of each grain of sand. Gravel vac'ing does not remove these colonies(bacterial biofilm) but only removes excess detritus. U.G. filters are not my first choice but they do work with attention. Biological filtration is the same regardless of the method one uses.

An in place removal as has been already described works. Temporarily a mess but continued standard maintenance will result in a clean tank again with or without retaining the substrate. The biological filtration IS NOT interrupted by removing the under gravel filter plates.

[tbrat]

Mr Hansen:

I agree with the thought of too many in one tank. However, I will stand by the conviction that if you take that u/g out, the tank and discus are in for a rough ride. You can lesson the blow to your fish by moving them, but the tank??? it'll fix itself in minute.
All said just my personal expierence.

Good Luck to you Sir!

also stabilize your ph somehow...I've noticed with discus, if that swings any they stress, but thankfully haven't lost one yet due to it!;)

[FishLover888]

Let me do the math, you have a 55g tank, with 10g of gravel, some woods and other things. Plus, you may not be able to fill the water all they way up. This gives you about 40G of water (maybe even less). Your pleco is a poop machine, so are your discus. 15 of them for sure will mess up your water big time. The general rule is 10g of water per adult discus. You need daily water changes to make the discus happy. No wonder they are dropping like flies.

The problem with discus tank is that you have to keep water temp high to make them happy, plus you have to feed them more food than other fish for them to grow. Both will make your water go bad more quickly. The undergravel filter for sure dose not help in this case because it traps things within it and makes your water impossible to keep clean.

Your options are limited. Take out the gravel (make sure you have mature filter to take care of the bio load). Reduce the fish load (if you don't, nature will reduce it for you and it may not be the way you like), or buy a bigger tank.

[robert e. hansen]

OK now we are getting some were. i will cull out the little ones. it pains me but i will do it. i have dubble my water drops no fish loss over night, one fish stop eating to days ago
lost color, turning dark and was ded this morning. this is the way my first three fish died. could PROPER PH 6.5 by AQUARIUM PHARMACEUTICALS INC. be killing my fish. i gest started useing it, and i may have been useing PROPER PH 7.0 when the first three died
2 + mounth ago. i can not remember.

[mrsportys]

Bob, Sound like you mean well but your loving your fish to death.

1) Yes never have an undergravel filter for discus
2) Get rid of any charcoal you may use in the filter system
3) No need to waste time, effort having water sit for days (was it aeriated?) Use tap water (city as you say) Add Prime to declorinate.
4) Do you have any sponge filters in the tank aeriating, these also act as biological filters. If you do no, you CANNOT change 50% of the water daily as others have suggested.
5) Imagine under you bottyom filter all the NI buildup....and you change the water 50%....50% of what? The vast majority of the crap still is under the underground filter....
6) Tetras, plecos (minature) are ok in a 55 with discus but do not put in fish like mollies, swords, get disease too easily.
As opposed to getting bits and pieces from people e mail me at mrsportys@comcast.net and lets see if I can help further. I have 42 tanks of healthy discus, breeders, babies growing out.
7) 50 tests a day do not help....take NI daily to review, water hardness is? Also...you added wood....was this from the yard or bought at a pet store where it has been certified clean?
Good luck, lets get rid of this problem
Jim

[tcyiu]

I think there is a middle ground between the "get rid of UGF" position and tbrat's "keep the UGF" stance.

I agree with tbrat, that immediately doing away with the UGF will result harmful spikes. So what I would suggest is to start alternate filtration immediately (i.e. sponge, cannister ... ). Once the new filter media has matured, then I would start the process of removing the UGF.

If it were me, I would do the following to remove the UGF. This is not THE DEFINITIVE way of doing it, but it makes sense to me.

1. Transfer approx 70% (or as much as possible) of the clean/clear water out of the tank to an alternate holding facility (large bucket, secondary tank etc.).
2. Move filter and heater to this holding tank. Make sure the heater setting is not changed at all so as to maintain same temp. Make sure everything is stable so that the heater doesn't accidentally come out of the water, or that the water return hose could come loose and start spraying water everywhere.
3. Move fish to alternate holding tank.
4. In the original tank, dismantle and remove UGF.
5. Then proceed to give the remaing gravel a thorough washing - in the remaining water in the tank. DO NOT use tap water which might have chlorine/chloramine. Suction/vacuum out as much of the dirty water as possible, and repeat with aged water (whatever you use for your routine water changes). Keep repeating with aged water until the water stays relatively clear when you sift through the gravel. Use your hands to constantly and rigorously sift the gravel when cleaning.
6. Once the gravel is clean, I would add some aged water, and then migrate the heater and filter back to the original tank.
7. Once everything is secured, I would transfer most of the original water from the holding tank back to the original tank.
8. Assuming that the temperature difference between the original tank and the new tank is minimal, I would transfer the fish back and then top off with aged water.

In this process, my goals would be to:
a. minimize stress to the fish
b. Get rid of as much gunk as possible that is currently trapped in the gravel (and under the UGF).
c. NOT kill the good bacteria in the gravel
d. Use the mechanical action of sifting the gravel to remove a percentage of the bacteria from the gravel.

My reasoning for item d is that without the higher water flow of the UGF, the population of bacteria in the gravel will be too large. As a passive substrate, there may not be enough oxygen/food to sustain this larger population, therefore a die-off could occur resulting in extra decaying organic matter.

This is for your consideration. This is what I have done succesfully, and would do again.

Tim

[robert e. hansen]

thanks for every one help. i removed the bottom filter and the substrite. i also took the carbon out of the power filter with no improvement in the discus. so i treated the tank twise and the food fore times foe internel paracites. four days my last sick fish was getting two more day he or she is doing fine. i only have five fish left out of 17. 2 RED SCRIBBELTS and 3 FLACHEN. i hope i get a male and a female of each color.

my water was good during the filter changes. the amonia was the only thing thae went up and it only went up to less than .25 ppm.
thanks again for all who helped bob

[dvarnay]

Bob, I am glad that you have sorted your problem out. I am sorry the hear you lost so many and good luck with the ones you have left.

[robert e. hansen]

there all stunted i half to try again after i save some money.

j will keep these to help me learn. thanks bob