Hi everyone. First post and Need help! :)

[12345]

I finally got authorized and am able to post! YAY! :)

So i picked up a "pair" of Lepoard Snakeskins yesterday. And after doing some research, I am not so sure that they are a pair. Their fins are of the same shape, making me think that they are either 2 males or 2 females.
My LFS still has 2 left to choose from but i just want your experiences! I would need to exchange them asap since they may not allow me to do so later.

2 questions:

1) What sex are they? (Fish A is about half an inch to an inch bigger).

2) I've observed that they are usually an inch apart in the corner. I am not sure if it is some kind of guarding ritual or one trying to intimidate the other. I also noticed they both have flicked they ventral fins a time or two when they other one came near. What kinda of behaviors should i be expecting from males and females?

Help a Noob out!

Thanks in advance! :)

Fish A (Bigger fish) Supposily a male:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishA.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishA1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishA3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishA5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishA4.jpg

Fish B : Supposily a Female:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishB.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishB1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishB2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishB3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishB5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishB6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/misteralanlee/FishB7.jpg

Sorry for all the pics. But i know that sexing is very difficult with minimal info, so i really hope that this will be able to allow you guys to help me!

Thanks again!!

[12345]

Any help for the newbie?! :)

[Don Trinko]

Those that breed discus can guess prety close but for the most part untill you see them spawn it's just a guess. Don T.

[12345]

Thanks for the reply. I have read a lot of great info here. I was just hoping for possible guesses from the experienced members here.
Please keep them coming!!!

Thanks!

[Ryan Smith]

There will be "possible" guesses, but it's really hard to say until you see breeding activity. You could always buy the other two fish and just have four, which increases your chances of a pair *evil grin*

[12345]

Thanks for the reply. I read that it is basically a crapshoot. But just comparing the shape and their reproductive areas, they look very much the same, not wider on one than the other. So i was just wondering if anyone could take a stab at it. :)

[mmorris]

Were they sold to you as a mated pair? If so, that should mean a proven pair; ie. eggs hatched. Martha

[12345]

No they were sold to me as non proven pairs. Just hoping that they will become a pair. I have not seen them chase each other but have seen them aways hangnig out together with the bigger one, Fish A nudging the side of Fish B.
Any info on how:
Male and females will behave?
Female and female behaviors? -
Male and male behaviors? - i assume they well chase each other and not hang out with each other peacefully.

Thanks again! :)

[April]

well..no idea. possible two females..possible two males..if you catch them bowing to each other..thats a good sign...hope you didnt pay too much..youd be better to get 6 juveniles and grow them out and let them pair. the males quite often has a wider tail fin. big fan. and he sometimes has more pointy dorsal fin..but not always..

[12345]

as far as behavior goes, the bigger one has increased his aggression since the last time i posted. Which was 15 mins ago. It is more aggressive and trying to bite the other one near the side of face and body and following it around the tanks. The smaller one doesn't seen frantic tho.
Any thoughts guys?

[Ryan Smith]

The problem you're going to run into now is that if they're not a compatible pair, the dominant fish is going to constantly harass the other. This could lead to stress, which could lead to sickness, starvation, etc.

Read up on discus pecking orders. That is why most people keep a minimum of six fish. You have to spread the aggression around. Even mated pairs can get aggressive with each other sometimes and have to be separated.

Is there a reason that you're going for just a mated pair?

Ryan

[12345]

Well currently they are both eating and seem relatively happy.
I was told by the LFS where i got them that if they are both males, they would chase each, fight aggressively and even stay at opposite ends of the tank.
Is this true?

As far as going for a pair is due to my understanding for keeping just the pair is because i am facinated in the breeding process of discuses. I have breed malawi cichlids with huge success. I gave up my malawi breeding project for discus. And as of now I only have enough room to keep a pair of discus.

I have been reading the forum a lot and i really do appreciate all the help. Could someone explain the possible behaviors of M/F and M/M or even F/F?

I am stillr eally new to this and i can't express how much i appreciate everyone's input. :)

Just wanna learn more. I for one can say that LFS will say anything just to get you to buy stuff from them. :(

Thanks again!

[mmorris]

Could someone explain the possible behaviors of M/F and M/M or even F/F?

Ryan's description can fit any combination. You might want to get a divider immediately so you will have it in the event they don't get along. You also might want to think about taking them back and buying a nice proven pair from a breeder. It might be worthwhile to pm the sponsors of SD and see if they can help you with this. How big is the tank?
Martha

[Ryan Smith]

If you intend to raise fry, you'll need more than just the one tank.

Male discus may fight, or they may not. Each fish has a different personality. Sometimes females will be aggressive with each other. In your situation, I'm going to guess that one of the fish will become dominant over the other regardless of the sex.

Maybe you have a decent LFS, but mine can't even keep discus alive much less pick out a pair for me. You could always try to get a proven pair from a breeder but you're looking at $300+ probably.

Ryan

[t_j]

If you want to know how they act you should do a search try words like "The Dance" or "Dance". I think not to long ago some one got it on video and posted it.

Good Luck!!!

[Ryan Smith]

If you want to know how they act you should do a search try words like "The Dance" or "Dance". I think not to long ago some one got it on video and posted it.

Good Luck!!!

Right, most pairs who are in the spawning mood will swim facing each other, then "bow" and turn their heads down toward each other. They will also clean a spawning site several days prior to actually laying eggs.

Aggressive nudging and pecking may mean many things. It could be spawning I guess, but most of the time when I see that it's arguing over food or trying to establish dominance. Same goes for tail slapping and gill flaring.

[12345]

Thank you all for the replies!!!

My LFS is pretty knowledgable about discus and flowerhorns.
I sold him all of my malawi cichlid babys (about 60 of them) for 200 bucks and he gave me a two leopard snake skins in return. I now understand that it is extremely difficult to determine the sexes of Discuses until one lays and the other fertilizes the eggs. I appoligies for my ignorance. I just wanted the best for these discuses.

Correct me if i am wrong but one possibly i can see is that the male, bigger one, wants to initiate mating while the female if anything is not mature enough for that. Cause at the end of the day, they do swim together most of the time.

[Ryan Smith]

Correct me if i am wrong but one possibly i can see is that the male, bigger one, wants to initiate mating while the female if anything is not mature enough for that. Cause at the end of the day, they do swim together most of the time.

Females usually reach sexual maturity before the males. Many times females will lay eggs for months before the males are actually fertile.

[12345]

That is pretty interesting Ryan. Now if my "male" is about an inch bigger than my "female", would this still apply? I have read on here that size does not determine maturity. But my "female" is about 4.5 inches and my "male" is about 5.5 inches.

With his aggression, he has not full on bit on her yet, but he does nudge her pretty good. I understand that stress would cause a fish to lose their appetite and stave. But if he carrys on doing this without biting, and as long as she is still eating, should i still separate them?

Thanks in advance!
:)

[A1 Aquarium World]

Nice looking fish,give them time i'm shure you will end up with a pair !


cheers

[12345]

Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I am just being paranoid about injuries. i've been keeping a close eye on them. I hope it all works out. *sigh*
Just read too much about the whole nudging thing now and it does seem like there is a tendency for them to nudge regardless if they are males, females, or a pair.
I have not seen them lock lips yet though.

*sigh*

[April]

size doesnt mean one is older or more mature..same as people..vary in growth and size even in one spawn. dominant better eaters..genetics..etc. thery could be siblings...coming from the same source. hard to say. if you did get fry..well..then you need 100 gallon tanks to start growing to marketable size. leopards arent always the best breeders. you mightve been better to start with a pair of turquoises,,or alencers or blue diamonds etc. starting with juveniles..you learn to grow discus and learn their behaviour..so when you do get a pair..or fry..you understand them better. thats why most people suggest starting with a group of 6 to 8 . they pair naturally and select their mate. you know..the chemistry. :)

[12345]

Thanks April. In regards to the behaviors, it seems like the smaller one (possibly the female) still huddle together with the bigger one (possibly male) even when he does nudge her a little (esp during feeding).
I have read on this forum that could be a sign of a possible pair since if they are both males, it is less likely for them to huddle together especially after couple nudges?

Any thoughts?!

:)

[Ryan Smith]

There is no way to tell for certain whether or not you have a pair at this point. It's really up to the fish. Discus take a little while to settle in once they've been moved, especially larger ones, so at this point they probably aren't in much of a spawning mood.

If you do have a male and female, there is no guarantee that they will be a compatible pair. I have a male fish in my tank that refuses to pair with any of the three females he's housed with, even though some of them flirt pretty heavily with him.

All you can do now is sit back and observe the fish. Their behavior may change over the next few days as they get comfortable and adjust to your aquarium. They may pair off, they may start trying to kill each other, or they may end up getting along fine with no intentions of pairing. Not to mention they may be female/female or male/male.

I guess at this point it's up to your fish.

[Don Trinko]

Get more discus and the odds go up. I think the behavier you are seeing is establishing the pecking order. (easy with 2 fish) My discus also chase each other and do "mock attacks". ( they don't actualy touch the other and I have never had any loose scales or other damage.) Most people recoment 5 or more discus. I have 4 in 3 different tanks. So far no major problems. With most chiclids you need to have a seperater or extra tank just incase things get nasty.
Don T.

[12345]

So the discuses have been eating like pis for the first 3 days since i've had them. My LFS has only been feeding them FBW and I have been doing the same. they are about 4 to 5 inches and I was told to feel then 3 cubes a day. one in the morning. one in the evening, n one more at night 11am ish. I've been doing 30% WC daily.

Yesterday morning they stopped eating n have not shown interest in food since. they have been pooing dark color poop even tho they stopped eating. are they just full or is there something else I should worry bout? Their colors r still very bright with no darkening. Any ideas? Thanks in advance! :)

[April]

give them a variety of foods. try some flake..or frozen brine shrimp etc. mix it up. fbw is like eating macdonalds day in and day out. ocean nutrition formula one flake is good... discus get sick of same food day in and day out. and you get better overall nutrition from changing . tetra colourbits some people use..or make beefheart recipe. one reason its best to start with juveniles before trying to get a couple and try breeding ...as you learn discus keeping first. you learn behavious etc..
hard to say why they arent eating..full..not h appy..feel like breeding..your giving them too much..they are sick of the same ole food..