Uber filter? Jaubert/plenum Cell-Pore

[Seecher]

Thank you Hans for this information you're veritable Gold Mine of ideas!

Please note one of the major advantages of this filtration system is "• Up to 75% less water changes", this is definitely the direction we want to go.


<< snip>>
And search for Jaubert/plenum method of filtration for nitrates reduction,
it works quite fine in freshwater tanks too.
It seem to be a good site for the beginning:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/filtration/plenum.shtml
Hans

http://www.reefresh2o.com/biofiltration.htm

Jaubert/plenum Cell-Pore

ReefresH2O is ideal for freshwater and marine aquariums and ponds.

Its non-clogging, interconnected pore structure is an efficient home for
biofilms of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to grow. Water is able to
pass through quickly and easily, providing contact with both types of
bacteria.

All of this adds up to healthier fish and less work for you!

Cell-Pore Technology -

Cell-Pore technology is based upon a unique manufacturing process which results in a porous ceramic material unlike any other.

To begin with, all of the raw materials used are selected based upon purity and consistency. Gases are created during a foaming process of a prepared mix which in turn develops a desired porosity. These gasses are controlled to create interconnected pores of varying sizes - from sub-micron to 500 micron or larger.

The cast shape is then fired at a high temperature to ensure the resulting structure is sterile and free of soluble phosphates, silicates and organic material.

ReefresH2O with Cell-Pore™ Technology Advantages

• 10-100x more surface area per cubic inch than any other biomedia

• Works in freshwater & marine aquariums & ponds

• Smaller material & equipment footprint

• Works with existing filtration systems

• Less time spent cleaning your aquatic environment

• Up to 75% less water changes

• Mimics biological filtration found in nature without harvesting live rock

[Hans Kloss]

Thank you Hans for this information you're veritable Gold Mine of ideas!
Please note one of the major advantages of this filtration system is "• Up to 75% less water changes", this is definitely the direction we want to go.


I'm working on it from 5 years. An idea of self-purification in freshwater aquarium was taken from the "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad, the best book about fish keeping I've ever read.
Hans

[OriTeper]

I'm working on it from 5 years. An idea of self-purification in freshwater aquarium was taken from the "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad, the best book about fish keeping I've ever read.
Hans
hi,
have you been using it on discus tanks? where do you use the cell-pro slabs (under substrate, sump)? do you acctually need less water changes?

[Cosmo]

I've used cell pore cubes in my Eheim cannisters for a couple years now. The 9 X 9 blocks are unfortunately too big to fit into any filter or sump I own.

As with any other bio media, there has to be a constant flow of water through it so simply laying under substrate wouldn't be an efficient use unless you were running a UGF to keep a flow going.

Water should be filtered before reaching the media so that floating detritus does not clog the surface and prevent good water flow.

You can buy slabs made to fit most HOB filters @ drsfostersmith.com and possibly other sources but again, you need to have some form of straining material (filter floss etc) between the source of the dirty water and the cell pore media. I used a slab in an Emperor HOB once in the second slot - using a standard insert (with the carbon removed) in the first slot and that worked quite well.

Strange thing is I haven't seen the Rocker wet/dry advertised for some time now :confused:

[Graham]

There are all kinds of pourous ceramic media out there and as Jim alluded to they need water pouring through them or they clog. The smaller the media and pore size the quicker they'll clog.

Once the pores are clogged either with mulm or sloughed off dead bacteria the available surface area for bacteria, either aerobic or anaerobic is drastically reduced. Needless to say this would start with the inner pores.

Another potential problem is having anaerobic activity with in the system..........a lot of pathogenic bacteria are anaerobic, along with possible H2S production.

Most products are not exactly what thier manufacturers would like everyone to believe. There are no magical bullets out there that remove the need for fresh water

This one is Bakki House...it supposely produces far infared radition to zap organics:bandana:...great TT media though and when set up right it will gas off NO3

http://www.fototime.com/39A139A3518A4F4/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/6C41B4D549D9134/standard.jpg

[Hans Kloss]

hi,
have you been using it on discus tanks?


Yes, it is my 2nd attempt to "no WC discus tank". My previous project based on deep sand bed (DSB) and undergravel filtration worked for 3 years with reasonable result (3-4 weeks with no WC).



where do you use the cell-pro slabs (under substrate, sump)?


Cell pore slabs are not necessary for building aerobic/anaerobic bottom filtration. I use water resistant microporous cloth instead, placed under bottom substrate (tiny basalt gravel for aerobic and quartz sand for anaerobic filtration).



do you actually need less water changes?

I DON'T need water changes at all ;). My fish don't need it too, of course during reasonable period of time, IMHO at least 2 months.
But my water plants are stopping to grow after 1 month with no WC and I still cannot resolve this problem.
Hans

[Graham]

I DON'T need water changes at all . My fish don't need it too, of course during reasonable period of time, IMHO at least 2 months.
But my water plants are stopping to grow after 1 month with no WC and I still cannot resolve this problem.

Hans how can you state you don't need water changes and then turn around and state ''....3 years with reasonable result (3-4 weeks with no WC)....'' and then say that you're going 2 months with out changes.........sorry sir you are doing water changes, maybe not as many and as often as some but you still are doing them.

At about the one month period your water is missing some as your plants are not growing....that's when the water change should be done.

Fish, including discus are very adaptable animals and as long as changes to water quality are done gradually, they accept it....even where water is deteriorating


This reminds me of the Aquascapes Pond systems and their marketing BS...simply add water, their bacteria powders and top off as needed...it's an Eco-System...no maintenance, no work......then about 4 pages over they tell you that the pond needs to be drained power washed and vacuumed out each spring.....why because the water has gone to crap............

[Hans Kloss]

Hans how can you state you don't need water changes and then turn around and state ''....3 years with reasonable result (3-4 weeks with no WC)....''


It was QUITE ANOTHER TANK, with different filtration system, twice as small as my present 220 gallons. Playing with it I've been forced to WC due to nitrates level after 3-4 weeks .



and then say that you're going 2 months with out changes.........sorry sir you are doing water changes, maybe not as many and as often as some but you still are doing them.


Of course I do. But now I'm doing WC's for quite another reason.
Undregravel filtration kills my phosphates and it is normal, I must dose it every week. Plenum kills my microelements and I'm dosing it every 3 days to keep my plants growing. But after one month (sometimes more) my plants stop to grow for unknown reason- I suspect Ca/Mg ratio is disturbed but I'm still not sure of it.
After one month my water is still suitable for fish. Discus are eating, spawning etcetc. Additionally my quality controller ;) (Gymnarchus niloticus) behaves normally. This fish is much more sensitive for water quality than discus or even otos, every water deteriorations tend him to swim in panic or eventually to die before discus show to be unhappy.
Hans

[Seecher]

I DON'T need water changes at all ;). My fish don't need it too, of course during reasonable period of time, IMHO at least 2 months.
But my water plants are stopping to grow after 1 month with no WC and I still cannot resolve this problem.
Hans

Greetings Hans,

See if this resonates with you. I don't think water changes will
help your problem with your plants. I think it's the fact that you
are controlling your nitrates therefore starving the plants. This
may be a necessary to get on a properly balanced aquarium,
that is slow plant growth.

I grew miniature roses commercially for over 25 years using
hydroponic methods. I had a constant feed of nitrogen at 200
parts per million if I would let that fall below 150 the plants would
virtually stop growing or grow very, very slowly. They still look
healthy and all but I didn't have the rapid growth and I needed
to produce new breaks and blooms. Could this be the same
thing happening with your plants?

[Graham]

I'm not sure why a UG would have any affect on phosphates......... plants on the other hand want phosphates and a nitrogen source....they use ammonia long before they'll use nitrate as that nitrogen source....

The GH of the water shouldn't have a lot of affects on them either, unless you get into buffering chemistry and start looking at the CO2 and Ca relationship, with the CO2 being converted into CaCO3...head spins....:confused:

[Seecher]

Hans how can you state you don't need water changes and then turn around and state ''....3 years with reasonable result (3-4 weeks with no WC)....'' and then say that you're going 2 months with out changes.........sorry sir you are doing water changes, maybe not as many and as often as some but you still are doing them.

At about the one month period your water is missing some as your plants are not growing....that's when the water change should be done.

Fish, including discus are very adaptable animals and as long as changes to water quality are done gradually, they accept it....even where water is deteriorating


This reminds me of the Aquascapes Pond systems and their marketing BS...simply add water, their bacteria powders and top off as needed...it's an Eco-System...no maintenance, no work......then about 4 pages over they tell you that the pond needs to be drained power washed and vacuumed out each spring.....why because the water has gone to crap............

Greetings Graham,

I think this is really a stretch and you are grabbing at straws to
try and make your point. A yearly cleaning of an aquarium or
pond is not unreasonable and a far cry from 50% water change
three times a week ( for no apparent reason). To say that
replacing evaporating aquarium water is a water change, or
replacing water that has been removed do to occasional
cleaning constitutes a water change is reaching to make your
point. It's water replacement.

If water is dangerously deteriorating its needs to be replaced.
Deteriorating water can be measured. If an aquarium is
balanced water maybe deteriorating but at any various slow
rate. Perhaps that the best we can ask for in such a confined
area.

Tell me Graham, what would you do to make a balanced discus
tank, that is, that would last a year without major maintenance.
I would be interested in your comments.

[OriTeper]

Hans any way you could give us a full description of your system? and pics would be awsome too.

im trying to decide what kind of system i should go with on the 250gal im planning on building, its all so confusing with all the different filtering methods: canisters, wet sumps, wet/dry sumps, ugf, DSB, planums, plant filters, high-tech, low tech...

ahhhh! my head hurts :confused: lol

[Graham]

[QUOTE=Seecher;418634]Greetings Graham,

I think this is really a stretch and you are grabbing at straws to
try and make your point. A yearly cleaning of an aquarium or
pond is not unreasonable and a far cry from 50% water change
three times a week ( for no apparent reason).

You've kind of lost me here....with proper husbandry and regular water changes an aquarium should never need an annual cleaning. I've never stated that 50% 3 times a week was needed, in fact I don't do it, I don't think that it's needed..............50% once a week yup!

To say that
replacing evaporating aquarium water is a water change, or
replacing water that has been removed do to occasional
cleaning constitutes a water change is reaching to make your
point. It's water replacement.

I guess that you didn't get what I was trying to say about an AS system....just replacing evaporated water/topping off, is a lousy practice. It just concentrates whatever is in the water. Doing a decent cleaning and removing 10%+ of the systems water is a water change...a small one mind you but still one



If water is dangerously deteriorating its needs to be replaced.
Deteriorating water can be measured. If an aquarium is
balanced water maybe deteriorating but at any various slow
rate. Perhaps that the best we can ask for in such a confined
area.

The balance of a system changes daily to the bad side...it's always going down hill...the bio-load will dictate how fast that happens but it starts the second that we add living critters into that water

Tell me Graham, what would you do to make a balanced discus
tank, that is, that would last a year without major maintenance.
I would be interested in your comments.

For a year........ It doesn't exist or if it does then it would be my 2500 gallon koi holding tank with a ton of plants, Hyacinth and lettuce, a 4000gph Bakki House system and 2 fish with very regulated amounts of food........

Now to reality....1 fish per 10 gallons, weekly vacuming, settling chamber for heaving crud and weekly 50% water changes....the nature of the hobby.

Like I told one of the newer koi hobbyist who didn't like cleaning filters...If you don't want the chores that go with fish then take up stamp collecting.....

[Seecher]

[QUOTE=Seecher;418634]
Tell me Graham, what would you do to make a balanced discus
tank, that is, that would last a year without major maintenance.
I would be interested in your comments.

For a year........ It doesn't exist or if it does then it would be my 2500 gallon koi holding tank with a ton of plants, Hyacinth and

Hold on just a minute, you said that Aquascapes Pond systems
was viable for a year. You have pointed out one example and
yet now you disclaiming that example. So what you're saying is
it possible for aquascapes but it's not for you. Interesting, perhaps
you should look into Aquascapes systems a bit closer. :)

It's obvious that this is another situation there we're going to have
to agree to disagree. I would just as soon chat with folks that
are really trying to give this an honest effort then naysayers who
only want to shoot project down. That being said I welcome
"constructive criticism" is the best way to learn.

Incidentally I resent your implication that someone searching and
asking questions about achieving a balance discus tank is lazy
and not willing to do the work necessary to raise healthy discus
Quite the contrary is true.

To Al and Hans:
By the way I had an opportunity to pick up a handful of water
sprite and a dozen Malaysian trumpet snails. A small step to
the beginning of this project.

[Hans Kloss]

I don't think water changes will
help your problem with your plants.


I have NO PROBLEMS with my plants until one month after last WC. They are growing fast enough to restrict algae growth. But there is a moment when they almost stop to grow and ugly, green hairy algae start to grow faster than my shrimps can eat them.
It is not a problem of low nitrates ( I can keep it at almost any level, controlling water flow through plenum) or known microelements deficiency. It is not a problem of low GH (it's always below 1) or low pH (always near 5.5). My plants are extremely easy and fast growing- limnofila aquatica, cabomba caroliniana and ceratopteris thalictroides.
Hans

[Hans Kloss]

I'm not sure why a UG would have any affect on phosphates

My gravel is basalt. It is reach of microelements and iron oxide. Unfortunately iron oxide can react in acidic conditions with phosphate ions giving completely insoluble iron(III)phosphate. I noticed this effect in my previous tank. Nothing to worry about, it should stop sucking phosphates after 1 or 2 years. But my tank is still not aged enough ;( .....
Hans

[Hans Kloss]

im trying to decide what kind of system i should go with on the 250gal im planning on building, its all so confusing
ahhhh! my head hurts :confused: lol

It is simple- do 125 gal water change every other day and filtration system should be not important- even NO FILTRATION will be good enough. But remember- water for WC must be aged ;).
Hans
PS. I'm working on it. But must find one year old pictures and carefully consider all DISADVANTAGES of undergravel/jaubert filtration system. The major one is probably necessity of soft and acidic water. In tap water bacteria and fungi will eat your fish almost for sure.

[Seecher]

Ah... Multiple problems... let us know how you resolve them.

Thank you for listing of plants I'll make note of those for future reference.

[OriTeper]

It is simple- do 125 gal water change every other day and filtration system should be not important- even NO FILTRATION will be good enough. But remember- water for WC must be aged ;).
.

thanks :D i needed that! (lol i allready have a list of so many filters...) ill plan it like you say, 125gal every other day, and maybe a bag of bio media in there for my peace of mind.

time to start ordering equipment!! :D

[Hans Kloss]

125gal

But....how can you get 375 gal of AGED water weekly? :confused:
Hans

[OriTeper]

But....how can you get 375 gal of AGED water weekly? :confused:
Hans

If 1 day is enough to age water (is it?) then ill just build a big holding tank from acrylic and hide it behind my tank.
i am planning on using tap water with no R/O so i could fill this tank quickly after a wc.
which reminds me, i need to go buy some test kits to see if my tap water is ok. im thinking more of keeping the water parameters stable rather then perfect (i.e soft and acidic).

[OriTeper]

btw, will i get the same effectiveness if i changed 25% every day (as apposed to 50% every other day). would be a lot easier for me since i could use a smaller holding tank (wc will be automated anyway)

[Seecher]

which reminds me, i need to go buy some test kits to see if my
tap water is ok. im thinking more of keeping the water parameters stable rather then perfect (i.e soft and acidic).

Greetings OriTeper,

The test kit is a great idea, every fish keeper should have one.
Why don't you base your water changes on the condition of the
water prior to the change? You might be surprised that you don't
have to change the water as frequently as you thought. Discus
can be comfortable with nitrate levels in the 20 or 30 parts per
million range, if your tank water is below those numbers then,
chances are, you don't need to do a water change. Eventually
experience will be your best guide, but I think that experience
should be based on scientific knowledge of the quality of water
your discus like to live in.

(We are living in an age in which aquifers are being depleted and
water shortages are existing in many parts of the world, perhaps,
we should be a bit more judicious over the water that we use for
a hobby.)

[Graham]

This reminds me of the Aquascapes Pond systems and their marketing BS...simply add water, their bacteria powders and top off as needed...it's an Eco-System...no maintenance, no work......then about 4 pages over they tell you that the pond needs to be drained power washed and vacuumed out each spring.....why because the water has gone to crap............



Hold on just a minute, you said that Aquascapes Pond systems
was viable for a year. You have pointed out one example and
yet now you disclaiming that example. So what you're saying is
it possible for aquascapes but it's not for you. Interesting, perhaps
you should look into Aquascapes systems a bit closer.

OK back from fighting with hurricanes…………you need to read closer, I said no such thing; I stated that Aquascapes marketing BS states it; they tell you that the pond needs nothing, including water changes etc. It’s supposedly a balanced eco system. Go watch one of these ponds being cleaned after a year! Balanced septic tank


It's obvious that this is another situation there we're going to have
to agree to disagree. I would just as soon chat with folks that
are really trying to give this an honest effort then naysayers who
only want to shoot project down.

Over the last 47 years of keeping fish (fresh, marine, Reef, and show koi) both as a hobbyist and for a while commercially, I’m not being a naysayer to anything, but speaking from experience. If you can come up with a way to have a maintenance free eco-system in a glass box I’m listening.

There no question that water quality can be measured…but our little junky test kits are only the tip of the iceberg…nitrate is only one very small aspect to water quality….try getting an ORP, TDS, Salinity, DO and a few other electronic meters then you’ll really understand what’s happening with your water

[Seecher]

Over the last 47 years of keeping fish (fresh, marine, Reef, and show koi) both as a hobbyist and for a while commercially, I’m not being a naysayer to anything, but speaking from experience. If you can come up with a way to have a maintenance free eco-system in a glass box I’m listening.

There no question that water quality can be measured…but our little junky test kits are only the tip of the iceberg…nitrate is only one very small aspect to water quality….try getting an ORP, TDS, Salinity, DO and a few other electronic meters then you’ll really understand what’s happening with your water

I don't have 47 years experience in keeping fish. Only 10 off and
on. But sometimes that's a good thing. Someone who is not
entrenched with the hobbies presuppositions, traditions and
superstitions can sometimes give a different point of view .
I respect age and experience but as a person of the
sixties I continue to "question authority", if it doesn't make sense
there must be another answer that does.

I don't know that I can come up with a maintenance-free eco
system for fish in a glass box but perhaps a group of us could
over a period of time. With a wealth of knowledge that you have
perhaps you can channel that into making his project really viable.
You have seen many changes over the years which makes fish
keeping easier and more maintenance-free. Even though the
basic water parameters are the same.

I do agree that this simple water test kits that are available
including test strips are inadequate for precise water readings,
but for the most part, they keep us in the ballpark. Personally I
do have a pH meter and a TDS meter. And I'm seriously
considering buying a nitrate meter.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16751&Ntt=nitrate&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=2004&Nty=1

Pinpoint Nitrate Monitor

The Pinpoint Nitrate Monitor is an accurate, affordable digital measurment instrument for both saltwater and freshwater. It has been designed for precision spot testing only. Continuous nitrate monitoring may not be possible in most situations and may require frequent recalibration and probe replacement. Pinpoint Nitrate Monitor is not waterproof and must be operated on a dry surface. Liquid contact with the printed circuit board may cause corrosion and void warranty.

[Graham]

Over the years there have been better filters built, air pumps that don't sound like buzz saws in you bedroom, water pumps etc but the basic principles of keeping fish have never changed...the old Dutch guy, Dirk that taught me the basics, kept guppies in tin 2 gallon cans during WW2....he had little air driven filters...we still have air driven filters...60+years later...get what I'm saying here.

Unless you really want to get into chemically modifying your water there is really nothing super duper new, tech wise. The reefers have come the closest and they had to tear up a section of the reef to get live rock, to help with the eco-system. Even then they still do water changes.

Try and think of it this way..The average fish in the wild has 50,000 to 100,000 gallons of water to itself...it has a full biological eco-system maintaining that water quality and then it has Mother Nature to roll in and flush the toilet on a regular basis....massive influxes of fresh water.

We give a fish maybe 10 gallons to itself and then put too much organic into the water and we might flush that toilet weekly, bi-weekly, monthly what.... 10% > 30 % > 50% still a long shot from what MN does.....to try and think that we can create a eco-system...something balanced in a glass puddle is ridiculous

Change the water

[White Worm]

Someone who is not
entrenched with the hobbies presuppositions, traditions and
superstitions can sometimes give a different point of view .


Here is the reason you lose your credibility here on this site. If it doesnt make sense to you, you dismiss it as a fairy tale. You have done this more than a few times which tends to make many think you are just rambling to be heard. You should use your own advice and open your mind to the possibility that what you are saying is not going to work for the current day hobbyist.
These practices you dismiss are tried and true by many who have been doing this for a very long time. If and when there becomes a time when we can create a maintenance-free environment, it will be discovered and tested by these same people who have been around the block with many different methods. Until someone can show solid proof that we dont have to do w/c's, its all just wishful thinking. It sounds like Hans is on the track to coming up with a solution but it still has a few bugs to be worked out.

[OriTeper]

I thought one of the main points of being on a forum like this (or any forum for that matter) would be to share ideas and perhaps together come up with solutions.
Its true that up till now no one has come up with a perfect closed eco-system in a box that you could leave for 100 years come back open the lid and find a thriving fish and plant community, or we would all be using it. BUT we have nothing to loose and everything to gain from trying to get there.
If more people try to take this path then more information would be made available to everyone and thus better systems can emerge from shared experiences.
In my opinion we need to encourage this kind of experimentation and not dismiss it, especially when people take their own time and fundings to try new things.
Aviation for example, was discovered by two brothers (who didn't have the benefit of an international and active information source at their fingertips) over 100 years ago when most people thought people flying was a ridicules notion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEXxkWXncuo

just my two cents

[White Worm]

Nobody is dismissing the possibilities of finding a better way and sharing ideas. However, someone is dismissing the ways we currently do it and why we do it. Like I already said, if there was factual evidence to support such a process (not changing water) and still keeping healthy discus, it would be highly accepted. Ideas are hard to consider when paired with insult and then backed by little experimentation or experience.
I'm still waiting for pictures of the discus and the tank that doesnt get regular water changes. ;)

[kaceyo]

I think Hans is doing a great job of explaining his ideas and the work he's put into reaching his goal of doing minimul wc's on an aquarium. He show's he has an understanding of the principles involved. Seacher, you show only contempt for anything outside your focus and you've not once tried to discuss the practicle side of getting to your "goal". The only info you've offered are copies of the text in advertisments for filters and products you associates with lowering nitrates. I, and many others, have asked you about your tanks parameters and how you intend to achieve your goal. Not a word on this have you offered. I now think it's because you wouldn't know what to say.

Kacey

[Seecher]

Mikscus wrote:
> > Here is the reason you lose your credibility here on this site. If it doesnt make sense to you, you dismiss it as a fairy tale. You have done this more than a few times which tends to make many think you are just rambling to be heard.

Secher responds:
... I'm lost credibility on the forum? Apparently only with you. But
that's OK, we can go from there. If something doesn't make sense
to me I look for answers that does make sense. I don't dismiss it,
necessarily as a fairy tale. Only perhaps as urban legend,
tradition or the way things have always been done (without
further scientific consideration). Water parameters have a
measurable quality. If the quality of this is water is deteriorating
beyond the health parameters of the discus it needs to be
changed, pure and simple... no argument here. What is TOTALLY
nonsense is to say the water should be changed so many times a
week at so much percent. Who came up with that? What proof
do you have it that is correct. 50 % water change every day of
the properly balanced water you don't need aeration or filters but
is that what the hobbyist coming down to?

Mikscus wrote:
> > You should use your own advice and open your mind to the possibility that what you are saying is not going to work for the current day hobbyist.

Secher responds:
... Why do you say that. Is the current day hobbyist totally
ignorant and stupid and not able to make proper water
measurements? I think that's rather condescending. I think we
should presume that the current day hobbyist is an experienced
fish keeper and ready to deal with the challenges of discus
keeping without dumbing down the whole process to 50% water
changes the week or some other nonsense formula.

Mikscus wrote:
> > These practices you dismiss are tried and true by many who have been doing this for a very long time.

Secher responds:
... OK maybe that needs to be adjusted. Maybe we should credit
new discus hobbyists with the basic intelligence to figure out that
the water parameters need to be measured. Or find out if there
willing to do that. If they're not willing to do that then give them
some time of non-sense formula that will keep their discus alive.
Let's just not presume that they're not willing to assume the
challenges of the discus keeper or advanced cyclide keeper for
that matter. If we don't tell them water measurements are
necessary prior to water changes how will they ever know?

Mikscus wrote:
> > If and when there becomes a time when we can create a maintenance-free environment, it will be discovered and tested by these same people who have been around the block with many different methods.

Secher responds:
... Not if these are the same people who do water changes based
on day of the week. They will continued perpetuating the same
old legends and traditions without any attempt to figure out how
to do a better. Just my opinion.

Mikscus wrote:
> >Until someone can show solid proof that we dont have to do w/c's, its all just wishful thinking.

Secher wrote:
... And maybe that's why you are put off with me because I turn
that around. I'd ask that folks give me proof why you do water
changes without checking water parameters. :) You notice no
one has offered any scientific proof of why water measurements
especially for nitrate are a bogus way check water parameters to
see if 'regular' water changes need to happen. Interesting isn't it.

Mikscus wrote:
> > It sounds like Hans is on the track to coming up with a solution but it still has a few bugs to be worked out.

Secher wrote:
...Several people have commented that they don't do regular
water changes. I going two weeks now without a regular water
change and my nitrate levels are below 10 parts per million.
Mikscus, there probably a lot of people on this forum that don't
do regular water changes but only clean their tanks and replace
water weekly or monthly, but are just not willing to post because
they know they're going to get beaten up by the advocates of
regular water changes. It's really tough on people who advocate
change.

...Like you I have a lot of respect for Hans, I wish him the best of
luck in his project and look forward to him sharing his outcomes.
Would you like to join us? The more the merrier. You have
several tanks perhaps you can dedicate one of those tanks to
the no water change project and share with the rest of us what
you've done to get it that way. That can be a lot of fun... what
do you think Sarg?
===========================================
The question for anybody here...

What is the maximum nitrate tolerance for discus? (Damn, I wish
I hadn't given away all my Discus Briefs) Please provide the URL
or other reference for review. Thank you.
============================================

Talk to you later.

[Seecher]

I think Hans is doing a great job of explaining his ideas and the work he's put into reaching his goal of doing minimul wc's on an aquarium. He show's he has an understanding of the principles involved. Seacher, you show only contempt for anything outside your focus and you've not once tried to discuss the practicle side of getting to your "goal". The only info you've offered are copies of the text in advertisments for filters and products you associates with lowering nitrates. I, and many others, have asked you about your tanks parameters and how you intend to achieve your goal. Not a word on this have you offered. I now think it's because you wouldn't know what to say.

Kacey

What a a massive overreaction.

My initial comment was that "regular" water changes should be
based on measured parameters of your water prior to changing.
If your nitrate levels are low the water need not be change,
unless there is another reason to do so.

I have asked what other reasons there are. And people have
said that there are hormones released by the fish which inhibits
growth. This is blatantly false. Others have commented that
water changes are necessary when medication is used, That is
outside of the general question about "regular" water changes.

I have said it is non-sense to base water changes on the day of
the week at a certain percent without any further consideration
for water quality. I stand by that.

Rather than make personal attacks on the
messenger why not just give the proof that regular water
changes are necessary or discus will die a miserable death.

Thank you, I look forward to your response

[White Worm]

I have said it is non-sense to base water changes on the day of
the week at a certain percent without any further consideration
for water quality. I stand by that.


I can see that you are bent on not changing your water because you feel all is well. Yes, many people do just what you say they do. They dont change water often....until....the next time you hear from them because their fish are sick. All I have to say is I can see the affect of clean water and I can see the affect when they are left without (I was a non-believer of frequent large w/c's in the beginning too). I dont change it because of the day of the week. I change it due to fish load, food fed and size of tank. Lets settle this with some photos. Surely you must know someone with a camera? I'll post mine and you post yours. If I see what I expect, then I win. If you have these big beautiful healthy discus, you win. Fair? If not, I can see that further discussion is a waste of time.

[Seecher]

Mikscus wrote:
> > I can see that you are bent on not changing your water because you feel all is well. Yes, many people do just what you say they do. They dont change water often....until....the next time you hear from them because their fish are sick.

Secher replies:
... Wow! You really don't get it do you! It's not how I FEEL
that's what I'm getting away from, the whole point of my
argument. You change your water in your aquarium because
that's the way you "feel". It's obvious you don't measure the
water quality before you change it.

... What I'm trying to say is changing water is not an emotional
event its one based on water parameters that can be measured.
I can see why you don't understand what I'm saying.

Mikscus wrote:
> > All I have to say is I can see the affect of clean water
and I can see the affect when they are left without (I was
a non-believer of frequent large w/c's in the beginning too).

Secher wrote:
... "In the beginning" when you didn't make water changes did
you base that upon the quality of water, did you actually take
water tests with some type of test kit or equipment that told
you what the nitrate levels of your aquariums are?

Mikscus wrote:
> > I dont change it because of the day of the week. I change it due to fish load, food fed and size of tank.

Secher wrote:
... And what are your water parameters. Fish load means nothing
if he grossly overfeed your fish and there is a lot a waste food in
the aquarium. If you feed your fish live food chances are you'll
have less problem with nitrates. But the only way to determine
that is actually measure the water. I guess you don't do that.

Mikscus wrote:
Lets settle this with some photos. Surely you must know someone with a camera? I'll post mine and you post yours. If I see what I expect, then I win. If you have these big beautiful healthy discus, you win. Fair? If not, I can see that further discussion is a waste of time.

Secher wrote:
... Suppose I could get the pictures of my fish, they are perfectly
healthy, fat and happy... is that going to change your mind? I
would guess not you would make up some excuse and say that
"they look good now wait until later when they get in trouble" ...
now, that trouble may come next week next year or 2/3 years
down the road when that happens your response is going to be "I
told you so" there is no way I can come out of this.

... This isn't about my fish or your fish, it's about measuring
water quality in aquariums before regular water changes take
place. You have yet to address that subject. You're right there
is really no sense going on with this conversation we have lost its
theoretical content and the whole point has now turned into a
person vendetta.

... Good luck with your fish. You might want to buy a water
test kit and get actually take a look at your water conditions
before you change your water next time it might be enlightening
information for you.

[White Worm]

Please....I know exactly what I am dealing with. I tested my parameters plenty in the beginning. If you must know...My pH is around 7.8-8.0 and doesnt fluctuate much from tap to tank. gH is 9-11 and kH is 9-11. I always have 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrites and 5-10 nitrates because I have worked out the process to keep it that way. For breeding I use 2/3 RO to 1/3 RO to bring my gH to 3-6 and kH around 3. If you stick with the same routine, there is no reason to continually check. I will check periodically if I notice a different behavior with the discus. Once in a while, the water company may throw in something. Never can be too safe. I use prime water conditioner every time I change the water and I over-filter and over aerate. I have adjusted my process many times until I found what works for me. I used the advice here and made it work for my parameters and test results. You cannot live by test results alone. Some people have perfect parameters but still can have a problem that isnt measured in Ammonia, Nitrate or Nitrite. In this hobby, yes, there is a time when you get a feel for it and just can tell when something is not on the up and up. I dont need a test kit for that. I go by the rule of thumb (1 per 10g) but I will push it little with 2-3 extra depending on size. I feed 2x a day with FBW, pellets and live white worms. Trust me, I know my tanks.
Water quality is about keeping it clean and to do that, you have to change it because you have living creatures inside continually making it dirty. Thats the bottom line. Good luck and I'm waiting for the pics....that.. should be pretty enlightening.;)
I'm done for now because I'm sure Al is about to step in. :D
I'll await your pics just to prove your theory.

[B-O-F]

I think I might run an experiment filtering the air I breath rather than keep changing it :)

Seriously you two. You both have systems that you feel work for you. Whats the big deal ?

[Hans Kloss]

===========================================
The question for anybody here...

What is the maximum nitrate tolerance for discus?
============================================
Probably nobody has measured it. But I've seen adults in water over 80 ppm of nitrates, heavy breathing and darkened but still alive and eating.
Discus are not as sensitive for nitrates as people suspect them to be. 30 ppm seem to be fully acceptable for adults, whereas otos have become to die within 1-2 months.
Hans

[OriTeper]

I think I might run an experiment filtering the air I breath rather than keep changing it :)


what do you think they do on space shuttles and stations in orbit?

BTW, i have thought of the ultimate solution:
Let's all move to the amazon and set up our pumps to circulate fresh amazon river water right into our tanks! :D

[B-O-F]

what do you think they do on space shuttles and stations in orbit?

:D


Touche :)


Pumping the Amozon sounds good. Wonder if I could do it with the Thames ? ( Oxford joke )

[Hans Kloss]

I'll await your pics just to prove your theory.

Maybe this one can encourage Seecher:
Pictures of my previous tank shortly before its murdering.
110gal, 6-8 adult discus, undergravel with DSB filtration.
50% water change every 3-4 weeks with final NO3 concentration about 30 ppm. Moderately soft (GH 7-8) and acidic water (pH 5.5).

[RandalB]

Since Al hasn't noticed the degeneration of this thread yet, I'll step in:

Keep it Civil all or this thread is history. You want to discuss, fine. You want to snipe back and forth at each other it's not. Things keep going the way they are and you're done.

The Simplydiscus.com Team

[brewmaster15]

Amen Randal!

Please everyone keep things civil...discuss by all means..but refrain from making it personal..

-al

[Seecher]

Amen Randal!

Please everyone keep things civil...discuss by all means..but refrain from making it personal..

-al

THANK YOU, I can live with that.

Discussion is based on scientific principles of water condition not
personalities. If folks want to make a water change based upon
nitrate levels of 5-10 parts per million, so be it. However, the
discus are not all threatened at that level. Perhaps a balance
tank can be maintained at 10-15 parts per million and nitrate with
cleaning and water replacement. That is what I have found.

Thank you Hans for the pictures. I will try to get pictures of my
tank and fish as soon as possible.

My water sprite is growing rapidly as floaters and sending out new
shoots. The Malaysian trumpet snails are cruising the gravel
substrate, great little critters... Lots of fun.

[OriTeper]

Pumping the Amozon sounds good. Wonder if I could do it with the Thames ? ( Oxford joke )


why not? oh and i call dibs on the first batch of 4 eyed discus fry you get from that tank :P

[kaceyo]

My apologies to Al, Simply Team, members and Seacher. My bad.:(

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Not a problem kacey:)

-al

[phidelt85]

Here's a "simple" experiment for someone who has access to a lab and the proper equipment and apparatus. Perhaps it will end the "debate" regarding hormones or organics in the water.

The purpose of this experiment is to test the Total Organic Carbon or TOCin the water. I have access to a lab; however, we don't have the equipment to run TOC on site and send our samples off to a third-party lab for this particular analysis. I would get the equipment but cannot justify the purchase to management.

Take a BB tank with discus stocked at 1/10gal. So lets go with a 60gal with 5-6 adult discus. Perform a 75% water change initially. Feeding will have to be exactly the same quanity, type and frequency every day. If this test could be run on two seperate tanks one fed only live food vs. pellets/flakes, it would also answer the question as two whether live foods add less to the organic load on the tank which I tend to disagree against.

Take a 1L glass bottle and submerge it completely, making sure to remove all air bubbles from the bottle. Seperately record pH, Temp., TDS, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates. This will be the baseline.

Day 2: 24hrs laters, Take another 1L sample. Record the same data. No water change.

Day 3: Same as day 2

Day 4: Same as day 3

Testing will have to be done in two parts, after day 2 sample collection and again after day 4 sample collection, as the sample must be analyzed as soon as possible; however, I believe 24hrs should not alter the results too much. Ideally you want to run the test as soon as pulling the sample.

So.. who can run this experiment?

[B-O-F]

why not? oh and i call dibs on the first batch of 4 eyed discus fry you get from that tank :P

:) Would that be the glow in the dark ones or the push me pull you ones ?