Need help with bacterial infection

[RAVEN]

Hi guys, i have had my problems here and there with hex and some gillflukes but nothing that moved this fast. I have 14 adults and two pairs in a 220gal bb. They are dark with white patches head tipped forward and more less of their food. I spent a hour or so on the site looking for a fix, came up with a formalin+mb bath. nitrofurazone will be a week away for me. Is this my best option any ideas would be great. All is not well in fish world as my wife says.

[Ardan]

Hi,
Is the formalin in the tank ?
If so make sure there is plenty of aeration.

When I have used formalin in the tank, I have used it at 2 to 3 drops per gallon for 8 hours, then did a 50% wc

Temp 84F

Could you post a pic?
Ardan

[RAVEN]

I used 1ml per gal and did a bath at 60 drops per 5 gals for 30 mins added lots of air to the tank and the bath, digital camera is coming for Xmas. 1 ml per 10 gals that is.

[sophie68]

Hello there,
How are your fish? I had a very similar thing happen to me. I was told by my "discus guy" (his job is discus tanks maintenance and discus breeding) to use Furan 2. He also warned me that only the strongest fish would make it. The dose was 1 capsule per 10 gallon/ 1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallon and just keep a very dim light. He had me empty half my tank so I would need less meds and the fish would be less stressed. Bacterial infection seem pretty hard to cure. The temp was 90F. That surprised me but my most of my fish, after 1 week are way better......I lost 2 which were weak to start with.
This is just a suggestion. Nitrofurazone is a good medication. It's also in Furan 2.

Good luck,
Sophie

[RAVEN]

Ya i switched over to nitrofurazone and followed the rules in this forum , wow this bacterial infection is an ugly problem and is crazy hard on these fish. hex is a treat compared to this,13 big once gorgeous adults pitch black hudled in the corner. doing my best and some are looking better. dont understand were it came from my tanks allways get clean water. Fastest spreading disease i have seen.

[Hans Kloss]

Fastest spreading disease i have seen.

In acidic water conditions there are NO BACTERIAL INFECTIONS of discus. In my veeeeery humble opinion it is humbug about acclimation discus to basic water. They cannot acclimate- they can only survive. Switch to acidic water if possible and/or add salt to your water to stop spreading bacteria (it cannot cure your fish!).
1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallons is far too low, minimal concentration to inhibit bacteria growth is 4 tablespoons per 10 gallons. Keep the temperature as low as possible and try to find proper medication. Usually potassium permanganate works fine until infection is external only. In case of internal (or gills) infection antibiotic should be dosed to the water and in food.
For me bactrim (biseptol) works much better than nitrofuranes, but probably it strongly depend on bacteria strain.
Hans

[pcsb23]

Hans,

Salt at 4 tablespoons per 1 gallon will have a specific gravity in the region of 1.024 which is the same as the sea, I would strongly advise not doing this.

[Hans Kloss]

Hans,

Salt at 4 tablespoons per 1 gallon will have a specific gravity in the region of 1.024 which is the same as the sea, I would strongly advise not doing this.

It should be about 0.015- 0.02% solution,which is far from concentration in sea water. Proper treatment is 20-30g of salt per 10 liters. European tablespoon can measure usually about 10-15 g of salt. Sorry, I'm not familiar with gallons ;(, should be 4 tablespoons per 10 gallons. Error corrected.
Hans
Btw. short dip in 0.2-0.3% solution (about 0.5 h) is sometimes used, but it is too risky.

[sophie68]

In acidic water conditions there are NO BACTERIAL INFECTIONS of discus. In my veeeeery humble opinion it is humbug about acclimation discus to basic water. They cannot acclimate- they can only survive. Switch to acidic water if possible and/or add salt to your water to stop spreading bacteria (it cannot cure your fish!).
1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallons is far too low, minimal concentration to inhibit bacteria growth is 4 tablespoons per 10 gallons. Keep the temperature as low as possible and try to find proper medication. Usulally potassium permanganate works fine until infection is external only. In case of internal (or gills) infection antibiotic should be dosed to the water and in food.
For me bactrim (biseptol) works much better than nitrofuranes, but probably it strongly depend on bacteria strain.
Hans

Sorry, but in my case, which was VERY similar, I was advised to keep a HIGH temperature (90F) and IT WORKED!!!!!!!! I am not saying this is what you should do, just letting you know about my story. My fish are now back to normal, apart from 2 which are still in decent shape. I thought they were ALL DEAD (they were all dark and floating). I was also told that "the strongest will make it". I think that this is a fair assessment of the situation. Any treatment is stressful for the fish, but a healthier one will not be as bothered by it as a weaker one.

[sophie68]

Hi again.
Sorry, I am all over the place. I was wondering if Maracyn 2 might help. Just a thought. Good luck. Hang in there.
They will get better. Are you doing 25% WC a day? Are your fish still off their food?

[pcsb23]

Just a word about temperature and its effects on bacteria and fish.

If you raise the temperature the fishes metabolic rate will increase, sometimes this will trigger a fish into "I must eat" mode and there is anecdotal evidence that it will "boost" the immune system, logically if it ups the metabolic rate it could also up the immune system, but it is a tenuous link. Also once we start to get to the extreme end of the temperature range this starts to cause stress.

Now bacteria on the other hand also increase their "metabolic" rate, in fact they reproduce more rapidly, and from memory this is almost exponetially. The difference with bacteria is that when they hit the top end of their tolerable temperature range they die. Unfortunately this is often at a temperature higher than the discus can withstand, for spiro it is 37C or 98f, a discus can only withstand those temps for a short period of time, and you would have to maintain a temperature higher than this for an extended period to nuke spiro.

I would urge caution using temperature as some magic bullet. In my experience more fish have been lost by raising the temperature when they had a bacterial infection than have been saved. If in doubt lower the temperature, it will buy you and your fish time.

[RAVEN]

From all the reading and advise from others in past posts,nitro triple dose first treatment 50%wc each day then single dose for 7 days 2tbls salt per 10gals temp 84 this kind seems what has beem most used. Never had this problem before and basing this treatment from the people that have.

[pcsb23]

By nitro do you mean nitrofurazone? if so no need to triple the first dose, some people advise doubling the first dose, and some manufacturers recomend it too, but I don't think its necessary with this drug. I think the rest of your proposed treatment regimen is fine, though you may want to do it for 10 days. Good luck.

[RAVEN]

10 days then thats what i will do, sounds like i will stick to what im doing thanks for your help guys and i will report back on their progress.

[Hans Kloss]

Sorry, but in my case, which was VERY similar, I was advised to keep a HIGH temperature (90F) and IT WORKED!!!!!!!!

Your problem was probably not bacteria but external PROTOZOANS.
Type of infection should be distinguished using microscope, because treatment of bacterial and protozoan diseases is quite different.
Hans

[Hans Kloss]

for spiro it is 37C or 98f, a discus can only withstand those temps for a short period of time

..for example for 72 hours. It is a part of our standard procedure of discus deworming. With good aeration discus can survive 36-37C with no troubles during at least one week. Only discus with gills infection cannot be treated in this way.
Hans
PS. Just now I have 2 newly purchased leopards swimming in 36C.
Can take some photos with thermometer visible.

[dawncollette]

Hans, why do you have them in such warm water? Just wondering, not meaning to hijack the thread.

[Hans Kloss]

Hans, why do you have them in such warm water? Just wondering, not meaning to hijack the thread.

Because it is most effective and less invasive method of protozoans removing. High temperature kills all internal and external protozoans with almost no risk for discus health. Of course this method can be used only for discus.
Hans

[Harriett]

Hans,

Salt at 4 tablespoons per 1 gallon will have a specific gravity in the region of 1.024 which is the same as the sea, I would strongly advise not doing this.

Paul, I am reading his quote as 4 tblsp per 10gal, if it is the post just above yours.
Harriett

[pcsb23]

Harriet, Hans acknowledged my post and went in and corrected it, see the one immediately after my post :)

[Chinaman]

..for example for 72 hours. It is a part of our standard procedure of discus deworming. With good aeration discus can survive 36-37C with no troubles during at least one week. Only discus with gills infection cannot be treated in this way.
Hans
PS. Just now I have 2 newly purchased leopards swimming in 36C.
Can take some photos with thermometer visible.

Hans,

which brand of heater do you use to take the temp to 36C?

thanks

Jim

[Hans Kloss]

which brand of heater do you use to take the temp to 36C?


I owe 2 heaters with internal thermoregulators corrupted and connect them through external thermoregulator up to 36C. Alternatively it is possible to use a heater with thermosensor bulb emerged from the water.
Recently I've found this one:
http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11123236/Aquarium_Heater_With_Built_In_Micro_Processor.html
but it is still not available here.
Hans

[RAVEN]

After 5 days of treatment they are doing much better,almost all their color is back and starting to eat again .Nitrofurazone 2tbs salt per 10gals temp 84 treating for another 4 days, might loose one but he is kinda funny looking anyway.

[dawncollette]

Raven, how are your fish doing????? Did that weakest one survive? What did you use as your main med and did you figure out what you were fighting?
thanks and keep us posted,
dawn

[back 2 discus biz]

In acidic water conditions there are NO BACTERIAL INFECTIONS of discus. Hans

Is this true? I keep mine at ~6.8. Is that acidic enough?

Thanks,

Paul

[Hans Kloss]

Is this true? I keep mine at ~6.8. Is that acidic enough?


It is not acidic, it is neutral. Consider slightly acidic if between 5.5 and 6.5, really acidic if below 5 ;). It is not easy to keep discus in pH between 4 and 5 and may be dangerous but in case of heavy external bacterial infection it is the last chance treatment until no efficient antibiotic is found.
Hans

[dawncollette]

HOW DID RAVEN"S FISH DO???? Raven or they okay