New and have questions

[mike16312]

First post.

I have a 100 gallon tank that was once an awsome saltwater tank. After my disaster, while on vacation, I converted it to freshwater and sold off my saltwater equipment. I have transformed it into a beautiful planted aquarium.

Lighting= 4-65w PC nd 4-55w T5
Fitration= 1 fluval X5 canister and a 9w Turbo Twist UV
Substrate= 3" of Ecocomplete
GH=2-4
PH=6.8
Temp=78-80 (for now)
CO2 Injection
Decor= moss coverd rocks, drfitwood, and tons of plants including ferns, clover, anubius, and swords.
Livestock= 11 neon tetras and three mollies

The tank has been set up for just over a month and the fish were added to control algea and for cycling. I would like to get Discus and I am concered with water quality. Right now the water is perfect with no nitrate, no nitrite, and no amonia. The only issue is a phosphate lavel of 2.5 but it is on its way down with media and plant growth (alot of plant growth). I get some hair algea but I add some algaefix and it is kept at bay.

If I get Discus, do I still need to change water as often as I have read or do the live plants help cut down on changes since they convert the waste into food? I have a 50 GPD R/O and have been using this to top off and change 10% per week.

Is that going to be enough?

Where is a good place to get Discus?

Just trying to get a good plan of attack before I start making purchases after X-mas. Any help would be appreciated by me and my future inhabitants.

MIKE

[Apistomaster]

Hoping to find a way of discus keeping without water changes seems to be coming up a lot recently.

I recommend abandoning this concept and be prepared to make at the minimum 50% water changes/ week with more being desirable.

There is probably no other topic experienced discus keepers agree on more than the need for these water changes.

[judy]

I've been keeping discus for many years in a fairly-heavily planted tank, and I change about 20% of the water, every second week. I have three HOB filters (which add up to filtration for 150 gallons in an 80 gallon tank), and I clean one filter weekly, in rotation, using a gallon of tank water to rinse the media, then topping up the tank with fresh treated water. I use CO2 for plant growth, add appropriate plant ferts (carbon and iron), Trace Elements for Discus, and monitor the water parameters to ensure the water is free of ammonia and nitrite, and has low phosphate and nitrate levels. The only paramters that show variability are the iron, which gets eaten up as fast as I add it (the sword plants really suck it up) and the nitrates, which can creep upward. The water changes essentially keep the nitrates down below 10, and if the plants weren't there, I'm sure more frequent, larger changes would be needed.
Experienced discus keepers who are breeding, using BB tanks, growing out young fish and feeding many times daily (thus generating much more waste and uneaten food) or who want their fish to get really big, all swear by very large, very frequent WCs, yes.
But I think that with well-planted tanks, with appropriate trace element supplements (discus apparently use up trace elements in the water quite quickly, which is another reason experienced keeprs advocate huge, frequent WCs)and if you just want your fish to grow some and be healthy, the discus would be quite happy.
Mine are.

[mike16312]

Thanks Judy,

That was the info I was after. I am not looking to bree the fish, I just want a nice tank to look at since it sits in the living room and has and will again be the center of conversation.

Now on to suppliers, I have not been able to locate a local dealer here in Bakersfield, CA and was wondering where you guys shop at.

Thanks,
MIKE

[Dennis The Mennis]

There are three or four good sources in the bay area. If you look in the sponsors section of this board there are two very good choices.

[judy]

Keep an eye on your Gh, though, Mike-- if it drops just a bit lower than it is now, you'll be seeing a Ph crash. You may want to edge the Gh up a little-- say to 6, to be sure the Ph will stay steady-- especially with your CO2 injection. That can take Gh down too much, even overnight when you're at that edge around 4.

[White Worm]

I've been keeping discus for many years in a fairly-heavily planted tank, and I change about 20% of the water, every second week. I have three HOB filters (which add up to filtration for 150 gallons in an 80 gallon tank), and I clean one filter weekly, in rotation, using a gallon of tank water to rinse the media, then topping up the tank with fresh treated water. I use CO2 for plant growth, add appropriate plant ferts (carbon and iron), Trace Elements for Discus, and monitor the water parameters to ensure the water is free of ammonia and nitrite, and has low phosphate and nitrate levels. The only paramters that show variability are the iron, which gets eaten up as fast as I add it (the sword plants really suck it up) and the nitrates, which can creep upward. The water changes essentially keep the nitrates down below 10, and if the plants weren't there, I'm sure more frequent, larger changes would be needed.
Sounds like changing water would be simpler and cheaper.


Experienced discus keepers who are breeding, using BB tanks, growing out young fish and feeding many times daily (thus generating much more waste and uneaten food) or who want their fish to get really big, all swear by very large, very frequent WCs, yes.
But I think that with well-planted tanks, with appropriate trace element supplements (discus apparently use up trace elements in the water quite quickly, which is another reason experienced keeprs advocate huge, frequent WCs)and if you just want your fish to grow some and be healthy, the discus would be quite happy.
Mine are.
Most will start out happy with nice discus until they see what is possible. Its human nature to advance in something you do as a hobby. Why not strive for excellence? Nothing is worth doing unless you are going to do it to the best of your ability.


Thanks Judy,

That was the info I was after. I am not looking to bree the fish, I just want a nice tank to look at since it sits in the living room and has and will again be the center of conversation.

MIKE
You will change your mind. Your idea of nice will change as you further into the hobby so why cut yourself short in the beginning? Go with high quality, keep their environment pristine and you will be so thrilled at what becomes a masterpiece in your living room with outstanding discus specimens!


Keep an eye on your Gh, though, Mike-- if it drops just a bit lower than it is now, you'll be seeing a Ph crash. You may want to edge the Gh up a little-- say to 6, to be sure the Ph will stay steady-- especially with your CO2 injection. That can take Gh down too much, even overnight when you're at that edge around 4.
gH, or general hardness, is a measure of the calcium and magnesium ions dissolved in the water.
kH is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate ions dissolved in the water and represent the main buffering or pH stabilizing capacity of water. kH or carbonate hardness (temporary hardness) is constantly being consumed by fish, algae, plants, the filter, etc and must be replenished to avoid a pH crash. You can use baking soda (carbonates=kH) to raise pH or change more water.

[judy]

Oops, sorry , I did mean Kh... foggy late-night brain. Mine tends to stick at around 9.
My argument, though, is that the water parameters can remain "pristine" with a planted tank and fewer, less dramatic water changes. The plants uptake much of the nutrient load that the fish place on the biosystem-- if you have a display tank, rather than a breeding, BB or grow-out tank where you are introducing a lot more nutrients into the system (via excess food and waste) by more frequent feedings that accelerate the growth of the fish.
Fish grow all their lives. With the planted tank and fewer feedings, they grow a little more slowly, and what's wrong with that?
Is the tank about the fish, or about some "my discus get bigger faster than your discus" contest?
To my way of thinking, dribbling a capful or two of the additional nutrients the plants need to help them maximize their efficiency in the tank's biosystem, and a capful or two of the trace elements the discus need every few days to be healthy and grow slowly and steadilty is a heck of a lot easier than schlepping a dozen buckets back and forth every day, a heck of a lot less disruptive to the fish, and a lot more satisfying when you have balanced the biotope going on in the tank so it relies more on the combined effect of all its natural processes than on gigantic, constant water changes.
The capfuls of additives are not very expensive at all, and adding them is much simpler than constant bucket-schlepping. The water change I do every second week is combined with substrate cleaning that keeps the detritus level very low. And I will vacuum a little, taking out a gallon or two in between if there's a bit of plant debris or noticeable leftover food or feces
But that well-planted tank, with healthy water and healthy fish is much more attractive to watch all round, I think.

[Apistomaster]

I can't prove it but imo, discus get 99.9% of all the minerals they require from their diet. Additives are another false "miracle" in a bottle. Very few, if any,knowledgeable Discus breeders use these products.

Discus originate from waters that are extraordinarily deficient in minerals. I seriously doubt that domestic discus have undergone a major change in their metabolism due to life in captivity that has made them become dependent on supplements in their water. Imagine all the food one feeds a tank of discus in one year stacked up then take into account that only about 10% of that is converted to discus mass and the energy they use. What becomes of the 90% that is converted to waste?

The oldest of all aquarium myths is that of the self contained "balanced" aquarium. It doesn't matter if the bare tank or planted tank method of keeping is used the only way short of a flow through water system is water changes to keep metabolic and natural decay products in check.
I guess a lot depends on how or what defines success to the individual. I know what is possible in bare or planted discus tanks and the full potential cannot be reached using minimalist water changes. I've been involved with Discus for over forty years and it was well established by others long before I started with discus that they will do their best if given liberal water changes.

This is a case of whether one seeks the answers that are true or only those that satisfy.

[judy]

But isn't there also a school of thought that smaller, frequent water changes are better than huge water changes?
So why not slightly smaller, slightly less frequent water changes in a heavily-planted tank that uses up a percentage-- low, medium, or whatever depending on the plants and the amount of the waste-- of excess nutrients, with the water parameters monitored to ensure they remain optimal for the fish?
Were my water parameters to begin going out of whack, you'd instantly see me with two dozen buckets changing water-- that's the only way to deal with water that's skewing the wrong way.
But that hasn't happened to my tank but for once, perhaps twice, in more than twenty years of fish-keeping. And it was always because I had skipped one of the bimonthly changes, and hadn't kept up to speed on the nitrate and Kh situation.
And doesn't it depend on how you define "do their best"? If you define it as "grow really big, really, really fast" then large, frequent water changes and frequent feedings will do that.
Under that thesis, though, wouldn't one also have to say to athletes: "bring on the steroids-- whatever makes you real big and real strong is clearly the best thing to do..."
It used to be that farmers swore you had to burn off stubble every fall to keep your fields in good shape, because that's what their fathers had always done. Now, stubble-burning's looked on as a very bad soil managament practice... perhaps that's an example of how it's can be a good idea to be open to alternate solutions.

[mike16312]

I did not mean to start a huge debate over water changes, I just wanted some clarification. Here is a photo of my tank. I think it is planted pretty heavy and should use up a lot of fish waste in the plant growth.

[White Worm]

Drop in 6-7 adults and you are finished. That will be a low load on the tank and you wont have to do huge daily w/c's. You will at the start because of the instant bio addition but it will taper off as your filter picks up the bacteria to compensate.

[Kindredspirit]

That is beautiful, Mike! You must be proud!:) Don't forget to take additional pictures when you get your discus.;)

[judy]

Mike, that's an absolutely beautiful tank-- the plant colors are wonderful! A nice group of discus will look fantastic in there, and they'll love it. Do post pics when you've stocked it... it would be great to see them in that tank. Don't worry about the water change debate... that's always a hot topic, energetically contested by adherents to vaiour philosophies. However you choose to deal with water quality, just be sure you stay right on top of it, and you and the fish should be just fine.

[Kindredspirit]

"However you choose to deal with water quality, just be sure you stay right on top of it, and you and the fish should be just fine."


Well said!:)

[Apistomaster]

But isn't there also a school of thought that smaller, frequent water changes are better than huge water changes?
So why not slightly smaller, slightly less frequent water changes in a heavily-planted tank that uses up a percentage-- low, medium, or whatever depending on the plants and the amount of the waste-- of excess nutrients, with the water parameters monitored to ensure they remain optimal for the fish?
Were my water parameters to begin going out of whack, you'd instantly see me with two dozen buckets changing water-- that's the only way to deal with water that's skewing the wrong way.
But that hasn't happened to my tank but for once, perhaps twice, in more than twenty years of fish-keeping. And it was always because I had skipped one of the bimonthly changes, and hadn't kept up to speed on the nitrate and Kh situation.
And doesn't it depend on how you define "do their best"? If you define it as "grow really big, really, really fast" then large, frequent water changes and frequent feedings will do that.
Under that thesis, though, wouldn't one also have to say to athletes: "bring on the steroids-- whatever makes you real big and real strong is clearly the best thing to do..."
It used to be that farmers swore you had to burn off stubble every fall to keep your fields in good shape, because that's what their fathers had always done. Now, stubble-burning's looked on as a very bad soil managament practice... perhaps that's an example of how it's can be a good idea to be open to alternate solutions.
I agree that as long as your tests indicate good water quality and your 20% water changes are keeping your conditions favorable that this is a valid strategy. There are some substances we cannot easily measure that may not have a direct correlation with nitrate levels but may inhibit growth. This is something to consider.
I never suggested that adding chemicals, like steroids, to produce the best potential growth is advisable; quite the opposite. I suggested that the least metabolic waste products is in itself a discus growth enhancing condition. I try to change 75% twice a week in my own planted Discus tank but sometimes only get around to one such change in two weeks.
The only additives I use are Plant Gro time release fertilizer sticks placed only in the substrate of my potted Sword plants. I add new sticks about every 10 months.
This hobby encourages trying different methods and I try to keep an open mind and experiment myself. This is best done by those who have the interest, knowledge and means to monitor the important factors. This being the beginners part of the forum, I suggest that beginners begin to experiment as they move into the experienced discus keepers' level of expertise and not until then.
Nothing reduces recruitment of discus keepers into the hobby than early failures.
You are obviously not a beginner and are attuned to early indications of problems but most beginning discus keepers lack your experience. They are often the same aquarists who are looking for the easiest ways, like how to reduce water changes. They are the most likely to miss the early indicators that something is going awry and suffer the consequences.

[BAM]

I am new to discus, and have had a disaster, but have had experience with algaefix. First, no chemical is going to correct a water or nutrient problem, but it can be helpful and reduce the workload. For me, algaefix has not affected "happy" fish, but has stressed and even killed fish already in stress. Blue tetra have seemed sensitive in my tank while cardinal and lemon tetra have been fine. Bleeding heart tetra have been fine at times, and killed by the addition of alaefix if stressed by other factors, like a water problem. The Algaefix dose is 1 ml per 10 gallons. I have been most successful with it adding it to the exchange water ahead of my daily water change. I add 2 ml to 20 gallons of water in the change tank and let it mix before adding it to the 70 gallon tank. This seems to stress fish less than adding it all at once to the big tank, but does not eliminate the problem if fish are stressed from other issues.

BAM

[Solo707]

Nice tank...btw, what plants and lighting are in your setup?

[Apistomaster]

Hi BAM,
Using herbicides, which are mostly Copper sulfate preparations, are hard on fish and plants. Few commonly kept fish are as sensitive as Blue Tetras. They make an excellent canary to carry into the mine. You should never add anything that you can see is stressing any of your fish. Plants are much slower to show signs of problems but I can assure you that the algaecide is having very negative effects on your plants. The robust growth of plants is one of the best ways to minimize algae growth but try not to be too obsessive about algae growth as a healthy tank will always have some species of algae growing. If no algae grows it is a sign that the water is not healthy,
So very often the solution is dilution(water changes) and not adding chemicals, especially known toxins like Copper sulfate.
Controlling the photo period, having some algae eating fish and/or shrimp and lowering phosphate and nitrates through water changes are better strategies.

Referring to another post, who keeps discus and still uses buckets to make water changes or am I just lazier than most?
Unless your water from the tap is really bad it is usually very safe to siphon water outside or down a bath tub drain. Add your favorite water conditioner to your tank then top it off with a hose from a faucet. If it is water from your RO storage, then get a pump.