What size Discus should I be looking for?

[Dennis The Mennis]

My tank is cycling now and I hope to start stocking in 2-3 weeks. My tank is 125 gal. I have two XP-2's with just sponges and four Marineland 660R reverse flow powerheads using minimal substrate. I know many, if not all would not recommend this setup. However, it worked for me for years in the past, so I'm gonna use it again. If I have to change it latter, so be it. No breeding is planned. These will just become spoiled pets.

My question is what size should I start out with. I will not be able to feed and clean like young fry require. However, I do not want to buy adult Discus either. I had 3"-3.5" in mind. Is this about right? I do not want to stunt their growth. I will only be feeding twice a day.

Another related question. I will not have a quarantine tank. I had to promise my wife I would only have one tank this time. I plan on making a trip to the SF bay area one day and visit the great breeders there to make my purchases. I was hoping to give them all a little business. This means I'll be getting fish from different breeders/water sources and combining them all at the same time. What kind of precautions should I take and meds to have on hand?

Also, how should I handle the tank mates. I plan on getting a dozen Kuli Loaches, maybe 4-6 clowns also. A whole bunch of Cardinal Tetra and some bn plecos. I also kind of like Gouramis. I have never kept any, but I'm also really starting to like the looks of Rams. As you can see, I plan an having a community tank with the Discus as the main attraction. How should I add these tank mates with no quarantine tank? Should I put them in first, all together, or last?

As you can see, I have quite a challenge ahead. All advice will be appreciated. I would like to keep fatalities to a minimum.

[pcsb23]

I have to say that it is a recipe for disaster imo.

I am guessing that your reverse flow powerheads are to power an uder gravel filter, if they are sucking through the gravel then all the detritus will slowly build and bacteria both good and bad will proliferate. If it is pushiong water through thegravel then it will keep all the junk in suspension, which will irritate th fish, aqnd ultimately get drawn into the xp2's where it will breed more bacteria, good and bad. My advice is forget any form of UGF, get bigger cannisters xp3's maybe, personally prefer eheims.

As for your stocking plans, I think they are really bad. Mixing discus from 3, 4 or 5 suppliers will lead to all sorts of cross contamination and issues. As you have no qt tank and therefore no hospital tank, you will have to treat in the main tank, hope you have deep pockets.

Your plans for adding other fish are not much better either imo. All you will do is run the risk of introducing a very wide array of pathogens.

3 1/2" discus are also still juvvies, and they will get stunted in this setup with your feeding regimen.

I am sorry this plan is a poor one, too many avoidable risks. Re-consider them please and explain that having a qt tank is a necessary evil. Then you can qt fish properly, avoid the aviodable risks and hopefully get a very nice discus setup.

[Kindredspirit]

I had 3"-3.5" in mind. Is this about right? I do not want to stunt their growth. I will only be feeding twice a day.

Why only twice a day? Adults are fed twice a day ~ you just might stunt their growth...


This means I'll be getting fish from different breeders/water sources and combining them all at the same time. .

This is so not a good thing to do ~ buy all from the same source or you are just asking for trouble if you mix them like soup;) I pretty much know some of the people you may visit and you will need quite a few QT tanks, IMO....


How should I add these tank mates with no quarantine tank? .

Always QT ~ all fish, esp discus


As you can see, I have quite a challenge ahead..

You do if you stick to your plan. I am sure someone else will chime in....hopefully ~

[brewmaster15]

I agree with Paul here as well on all counts...

I would strongly advise that if you don't use a QT... get all the fish at the same time from the same seller....mixing and matching with any fish is risky...with Discus...it can really ruin a tank of fish..

I can't recommend anything about power heads and undergravel filters except not to use them..

I'd really advise you re-thinking how you plan on setting this up. I don't mean to be negative...but I just see too many pitfalls that you are setting yourself up for.

hth,
al

[Bainbridge Mike]

Please don't do it! You will get into big trouble with your plan. I agree with the comments above. In particular, I think it is imperative that you get your fish all from one source. Mixing and matching is a terrible idea.

Mike

[Dennis The Mennis]

I am not above reconsidering my plans. That's one of the benefits of discussing them here first. I know I have an uphill battle without a quarantine tank. I can use just one breeder, that's not a big deal. However, I was hoping to get some red turquoise, some sort of stripped or spotted pigeon blood and maybe a few natural/wild verities. Six to eight to start out with. I'm not a big fan of solid colors. Since these seem to be so popular, most breeders and importers focus on them. No one breeder seems to have everything I'm looking for. Size is my major concern. I know I can only get two regular feedings a day with a frequent third feeding two -five times a week. The larger they are the more expensive they get. Yet I do not want to get them so small that I'll stunt their growth. I need to find a viable option that will keep both my fish and my wallet happy.

As for the reverse flow power heads, I knew I was gonna get a lot of grief for these. These push water from the bottom up through the substrate. ime, they help keep debris suspended so the canisters can pick up and clean out the water. The accumulated debris that does make it to the bottom of the ugf can be cleaned out by simply hooking a hose to the uplift tube and sucking the water/debris out. I know this goes against the current school of thought. I'm ok with that. I've always been a non-conformer. This process worked well for me in the past. So I plan on starting with what has worked for me before. I plan on two 60%-75% water changes a week. I'll clean one canister with each wc. I'll swap between cleaning the gravel and under the gravel via the uplift tube with each wc. This will have both canisters and above and below the ugf filter being cleaned once a week. The sponges on the reverse flow power heads will be cleaned every wc.

I personally do not care for the looks of bare bottom tanks. This tank is in our family room and it has to be decorated nicely. I thought about a thin layer of sand and some nice potted plants with driftwood. Who knows, I still may have to go that route. But this has worked well in the past and I am confident I can make it work again.

I want a balanced tank with lots of bottom feeders to help with the house cleaning. I am not trying to breed these fish. I just want a beautiful community tank that focuses around Discus. I am a little perplexed on adding the tank mates. One side of me feels like I should add them first and treat anything that might come in with them. Then once I'm confident I have a healthy environment, add the Discus. The other side says add the Discus first then slowly add the others. Any thoughts on this? Its a 125 gal tank so medicating will be a little expensive.

[Dolphin Dip]

maybe you could an automatic feeder for flakes when you're not home. then when you are you can supplement their diet with beef heart, bloodworms, etc.

i'd definetly go with the BB look. you can put plants and driftwood in there w/ pots and it will still look nice. trust me on this, i started with gravel and had to switch back to a BB due to time constraints.

i still have 3 giant vals and some nice driftwood. and i'm pleased with the tank.

[pcsb23]

I still think you are stacking the odds against you. Simplify your plans and setup. Put the odds in your favour that way.

I've attached a pic of my 100US Gallon display tank which is also in my lounge, just to show I speak from experience.

The logic these days for using a UGF does not stand up against running two cannisters of adequate capacity. With your plan you are already going to the expense of the powerheads, its more cabling and more maintenance. And where is the benefit? ok it will blow the debris into the water column, but in reality unless they are extremely powerful power heads, all it will do is keep the very fine particles in suspension. As you already said you will be vac'ing the gravel anyways so any benefit is rapidly lost. And if you intend to plant the tank, then you are on a loser straight away, particularly with root feeders, you need the ferts in the substrate! Ditch the UGF, it really isn't a good idea. 2 xp3 or similar will be more than enough filtration, with your proposed w/c routine and gravel cleaning then it may work. Fit prefilter sponges to the cannisters and you will only need to clean the insides once a month, so you could do them fortnight abouts. This way save you maintenance time too.

Ok so lets look at the economics of a qt tank. Lets say you get a bacterial infection in your display tank and the chosen drug is say Furan 2. Now first off the efficacy of the drug will be hampered due to the substrate, and it won't matter which drug is chosen.

Now using an antibiotic you should dose for 10 days, so that is 10 x 13 sachets = 130 so 13 boxes of meds at say $6 a box $78 on meds. Now because your bio filter is knocked you need to manage an ammonia spike followed by a nitrite spike, but you can't add salt because it will the plants! So the fish get stressed and go backwards again, and this time they start flashing and flicking so you hav e to treat with FMG, lovely green water and another knocked bio filter....nett result one or two dead discus at say $50 each, lots of stress, no enjoyment and a wrecked tank. Believe me I have been there.

A 10 or 20 gallon tank and heater and sponge would set you back no more than $75 or so. It then gives you the freedom to treat fish, buy fish in a way that you can afford and gives you that flexibility. Some can even fit on the same stand as the display tank.

Despite this I would still strongly advise getting bigger fish and from one supplier. Put the odds in your favour.

At least I have tried :)

[Dennis The Mennis]

That is a beautiful setup.

I appreciate your candor. I do not feel confident enough to mess with live plants. Mine will be purely decorative. I understand the benefits of a qt tank. I just gave my word that I would only have one tank this time. I tend to go overboard with everything I do. So just getting another tank for qt would not go over well with my wife. That's how it always starts. I realize that I will not have an ideal set up. Though, I think I'll have a workable healthy environment. I have everything bought and set up already. So, I think I'm gonna give it a try.

What size would you recommend to start with? 4" 5"... ?

[pcsb23]

Thank you for the compliment.

As for fish I'd go with the biggest you can reasonably afford and get your final number at the same time from the same supplier. Good luck.:)

[White Worm]

Have you ever kept discus?

[White Worm]

Mine. I went with gravel and used the theory that it worked in the past, so it will work now. It didnt work. Did the gravel, sand, etc and now I have come to a very appealing compromise. Live plants, driftwood and easy to clean. I have an xp3 and 2 sponge filters for the tank. Bottom (underneath) is painted a sandy / pebble texture paint. I also have the "crew" 4 sterbai and 2 BN plecos. One day I will add a school of cards but "always qt". Your wife will be more pissed if you kill all these fish you have spent $$$$$ on. I'm sure she would be happier with the security of using a small tank for qt and empty / store when not in use. Put her on here and we will explain it to her :)

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[April]

i saw another aquarium on a local all fish forum today..that used tiles on the bottom. foodgrade type ones youd use on a kitchen counter. his tank was 24 wide so they fit..he had to cut a bit on the back one. it was quite attractive. how about..do it in stages. get all your little guys first..make sure they are clean and no problems..get everything cycling..then add discus later all from one source.
or sand..easy to clean as stuff stays on top.
at any rate..whichever way you decide to do it..i hope it works as well as your last tank and you dont end up with problems. discus are wonderful when healthy..when they get complimised then they go downhill very rapidly.

[Dennis The Mennis]

Yes, I have kept Discus before. At one time I had a fish room myself. Nothing compared to what I've seen here. But I have kept multiple tanks up and running for a long time. When my wife first moved in with me I had seven tanks fully stocked in my one bedroom apt. So, when I promised to only have one tank this time, there was some history behind it. :Big Grin: So I'll have to make due with what I have for now. The more I think about it, starting out with the smaller fish will be the most feasible. I can get them healthy and clean before I add the Discus. Has anyone ever tried adding ammonia to a tank with fish to help maintain a high biological load? hmmm

[Dennis The Mennis]

Mikscus, those are nice looking fish. Are you doing anything special for the live plants? What kind of lighting are you using?

[White Worm]

Thanks, no special additives. I put a fert block in the pot under the sand when I initially added them to the tank and I use fertilizer/water conditioner (plant care by jungle). I do need something else though because they are turning yellow. Nice dark green stems are growing on the inside but old ones turn almost clear and die on the outside edge. Just regular florescent lighting. I may need to leave the light on longer too. I do like the sprouts that grow because I am planting them into my driftwood as I get more.

[Don Trinko]

I have 3 discus tanks with gravel and fake plants. Here are my suggestions:
1. Buy all the fish at the same time from the same dealer.
2. Remove the undergravel filter.
3. Do not overload: 1 discus or less for 10g water.
4. Gravel and fake or real plants is more work and harder to get all the crud out but it can be done. Vacumn the gravel at every WC. It's amazing how much "wast products" discus can produce.
5. Pay particular attention to WC. There is a large variety of opinion. Start with larger WC storage than you think you will need . I change 40% twice a week but many others change more. It depends a lot on what/how much/ and how many times you feed. It also depends on the age of the discus and how much growth you expect and the bio load.
Good Luck; Don T.

[Dennis The Mennis]

Well shoot, now you've done it. I've just spent the last two days reading about planted tanks. I am in awe. I've never really given them much attention. They've always seemed like they would require more effort than I was willing to put forth. I still think they might. However, I think I will continue to do more research. All I can say is D@mm, if you have not read about the "Son of Kahuna" (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=58151) you are missing out. It is funny how I have never really ventured into sections here that never peeked my interest.

Thanks for getting me to expand my horizons.