Your opinion on preventative treatment

[wilddiscuss]

Hello,

I am getting a shipment of new discus in the mail soon and they are going to be the first discus in a newly cycled tank. My tank is 75 gallons, with a 5 gallon trickle filter. The tank is a BB. Here is my plan. I want your thoughts that I appreciate on what you think is a good idea.

1) Before I put them in the tank...each discus will be dipped in a bucket of methylene blue. Then flopped into the tank.

2) When they are put in the tank the water will have a salt concentration at 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons of water.

3) Treated for flukes with Praziquantel 50gm pure powder from jehmco at 1/4 tsp per 20 gallons. With regular water changes at 40 gallons of water changed every week and keep it in the tank at this strength for 21 days with good aeration.

Is there anything I should add or change in this? The feedback will be appreciated. Thanks for your help.

Todd

[Elcid]

Hey Todd:

A lot depends on where you get the discus from and the condition they are in when you get them......It's not a good idea to have a pedetermined plan IMO.....When you open the box, if the fish look like they are in good condition and the integrety of the bag is intact then you should not take all the steps you mentioned in your post. As a general rule:

(1) Keep the lights off
(2) Don't have anything in the tank that is loose that they can hurt themselves on.
(3) Feed sparingly, even though ur tank's cycled, it will cycle again after you add fish.
(4) Change water religiously!

HTH,
Sandeep

[wilddiscuss]

Hey Todd:

A lot depends on where you get the discus from and the condition they are in when you get them......It's not a good idea to have a pedetermined plan IMO.....When you open the box, if the fish look like they are in good condition and the integrety of the bag is intact then you should not take all the steps you mentioned in your post. As a general rule:

(1) Keep the lights off
(2) Don't have anything in the tank that is loose that they can hurt themselves on.
(3) Feed sparingly, even though ur tank's cycled, it will cycle again after you add fish.
(4) Change water religiously!

HTH,
Sandeep

Sandeep,

Thanks...point taken. So I should wait until I see any signs or symptoms. But do these steps sound good as the right use of these meds? I have been trying to perfect the directions of the meds. Thanks :)

[Elcid]

Hey Todd:

It is my opinion (and many will disagree) you should not treat new fish for the 1st week or longer. Any treatment puts stress on the fish that are already stressed from shipping and IMO this often puts them in worse shape than they would have been if you had done nothing. Focus on cleanliness and stability, keep them away from traffic and unusual light situations.

If you find that ur fish are jumpy or breathing abnormally, use salt treatment and above all change the water daily! If you have issues after you get them there are plenty of people on simply who will assist you :)

HTH,
Sandeep

[RyanH]

I agree with what was posted here.

Start out with clean, warm water and a fully cycled filter. Add salt if they seem stressed. Give them a day to settle in and evaluate from there.

[Tropical Haven]

I also agree in this assessment, don't give your discus meds if they don't require then. You don't want to stress them out without knowing if anything is wrong with them in the first place. Good luck with you new arrivals, post some pics when you get them. :D

[AADiscus]

I ditto everyone else. I do not understand why people want to always start using medications when there may not be anything wrong with the fish. That is when you do end up with issues. IMO

Keep an eye on them and take it from there. You will know what to do with them as they get used to your setup and wc routine. They seem to breath heavily or lay on the bottom, lower your water level to half to ease the pressure on them. If it continues then add ya some salt. :D

Can't wait to see pics!

[wilddiscuss]

I also agree in this assessment, don't give your discus meds if they don't require then. You don't want to stress them out without knowing if anything is wrong with them in the first place. Good luck with you new arrivals, post some pics when you get them. :D

Does the same apply if the discus are wild?

[Elcid]

Does the same apply if the discus are wild?

Hey Todd:

For wild fish you should discuss with the seller and find out as much as you can with respect to the following:

(1) When they were imported?
(2) What treatments have already been performed?
(3) What they have been eating?
(4) Water parameters

Unless you are planning on selling those fish in the next month I think there is no need to rush to medicate! Most resellers of Wild fish have already dewormed the fish they sell (I hope) so there is definately no need to do it again!

HTH,
Sandeep

[Don Trinko]

The importer ( if they are reputable) will have allready " dewormed" and treated for parasites. Assume the fish are healthy unless you see evidence that they are sick.Fish in the wild get all sorts of parasites and diseases but... they also cure themselves with no medication. Some meds are relativly easy on fish but some can be worse than the disease. Don T.

[Hans Kloss]

The importer ( if they are reputable) will have allready " dewormed" and treated for parasites.

Sorry but he is simply unable do do it, except of expensive adults. Having a bunch of young imported discus it is not possible to control deworming efficacy of each fish separately. Only reputable breeder can take full responsibility for fish being free of parasites.
All newly purchased fish should be considered as a source of parasites and carefully examined during quarantine. But no medication will be used until no evidence of parasites presence was found. There is a lot of reasons to avoid blind medication.
Hans

[ShinShin]

I treat newly arrived discus with a combo of malachite green/formalin which will kill most oppurtunistic extoparasites that could attack the stressed discus. Discus that appear just fine upon arrival can break down in the next day or so, and most cases are protozoans, which MGF eliminates.

Further treatment may be required. I have received discus from "reputable" breeder/importers, some sponsors of this board, that were infected with flukes to hexamita to nematodes to cestodes. Here is where a microscope comes into great use. It helps eliminate alot of unnecessary medicating.

I would find out if your discus have been fed any live food. If yes, except for brine shrimp and especially if fed CBW's, I would consider prophylactic treatment if you don't have access to a microscope.

Mat

[Hans Kloss]

I treat newly arrived discus with a combo of malachite green/formalin


Nice. Today I purchased young chinese ring leopard. After microscopic examination of impurities from transport sack I found only some trichodinium. I know they are sensitive to high temperature so there is no necessity to treat my fish with toxic disinfectants. Once have found amoeba, which is resistant both to the temperature treatment and MGF. Having no quinine I tried metronidazole (in incredible concentration) with success. I suppose there is no universal treatment for new fish.



I have received discus from "reputable" breeder/importers, some sponsors of this board, that were infected with flukes to hexamita to nematodes to cestodes.


Have seen discus from most reputable european breeder taken directly from transport sacks and infected with chilodonella ;).



Here is where a microscope comes into great use. It helps eliminate alot of unnecessary medicating.


It also helps to stop, prolong or change medication procedure.
Purchasing microscope BEFORE buying first discus seem to be quite reasonable idea.
Hans

[ShinShin]

For the record, Hans, the discus I purchased from you in Texas and Chicago were all clean.

Mat :)

[Discus-Hans]

Ty Mat,

but to make sure, there seems to be a little mis~understanding Hans = not Hans, although he is but even though his beautifull name Hans he's not me Discus Hans.

Still with me :angel: Hans Kloss is not Discus Hans, no disrespect by the way, but I had the question before,

Hans

[Kenny's Discus]

Ty Mat,

but to make sure, there seems to be a little mis~understanding Hans = not Hans, although he is but even though his beautifull name Hans he's not me Discus Hans.

Still with me :angel: Hans Kloss is not Discus Hans, no disrespect by the way, but I had the question before,

Hans

:pAnd it's all good. Good job "Discus Hans".

Kenny

[brewmaster15]

These comments apply to Newly acquired fish...

Preventative antibiotics ...never
Preventative internal flagellates... not unless needed.
Preventative Internal worms...always..its the easiest to deal with and most highly effective.
Preventative external protozoans and flukes.. Always.


I guess I am with Mat here...Our methods may differ but the goal is the same.


Any time you buy discus from ANY source you risk bringing something in... Some things like worms aren't going to kill your fish overnight..if at all..

Bring in fish with an external parasite like velvet...have the right conditions in place ( shipping stress, poor water quality,ammonia burns, slime coat damage etc) and if you do nothing ...by the time you see the velvet...Its usually too late or at best...you take heavy losses.. Parasites like this are probably the primary cause of most of the "bacterial"infections we see on the forum. The Bacteria being secondary due to the action of the parasites.

If you buy one group of fish every year or so from reputable sources ..the odds of experiencing this are slim....but the more times you buy ...sooner or latter ...you will get hit hard... happens to everyone...

and that is why you hopefully have kept your fish in a QT tank many weeks;)... at least there..if you did nothing as a preventative... your losses are contained.. Preventatives aren't 100% obviously...but I'll tell you what...I'd rather say...I tried and did all could than..."I should have":(

Not advocating here...speaking from my personal experiences.

hth,
al

[Discus-Hans]

And....be careful with formalin.

Formalin + open wounds (wilds) kills the Discus fast.

Hans

[Hans Kloss]

For the record, Hans, the discus I purchased from you in Texas and Chicago were all clean.


Yuppp.... I'm proud for my twin brother doing good job in America , but I live in Europe ;).
Hans

[ShinShin]

Well, is my face a little red?!?!?!

Sorry Hans, and Hans.

For the record, my "clean" Stenker's came from Discus Hans, no Hans Kloss.

Mat

[Discus-Hans]

Ha ha ha ha Mat, don't worry about it. I think Hans (Kloss) should change his name in: Hans (but not Discus Hans) ha ha ha ha

Just kidding there are not many Hans's here (I know some will think Thank the Lord) in the USA

:):):) Hans (Discus Hans)

[wilddiscuss]

Thanks all for your replies. I guess I have decided to wait a week and look for signs and symptoms. I am still going to add a bit of salt to the tank with the mortons blue baged water softener salt for the first week. I have, although stocked up on my fish meds. Just in case there is any signs or symptoms I will have it on hand. I am buying pure prazi powder from Jehmco. Along with 100 mg of Metronidazole from Jehmco. I have purchased Anti-Protozoan Flake that contains Metronidazole and Deworming flakes that contain Levamisole. I bought some of the Jungle Anti-Parasite pellets that contains Metronidazole 1.0%, Praziquantel 0.5%, Levamisole 0.4% but from what I have heard a lot of discus don't eat them. I also picked up some Gel-Tek Ultra Cure PX which is the gel food. But not all Discus like to eat that but I hear you can mix it with food and from the feed back here on simply....it works wonders. Now last but not least I picked up some Sykes Big L Wormer for Poultry & Pigs now from what I have heard this is the stuff for water treatment for de worming. You treat 1 ml per 7 liters of water. A 24 hour treatment and a large water change later and your worms are gone. It doesn't affect the bio filter either. It contains Levamisole Hydrochloride 16g/Kg. I have been doing my homework with meds. Just becuase I got some flubendazole. So I would say I am set to go. If there is anything I am good. I will have pictures up shortly...my nitrites on my water level for cycling is really starting to elevate so It's only about a week until my first fishless cycle is complete thanks to everyone on simplydiscus showing me the ropes. Thanks all and I'll keep you posted!

Todd

[Apistomaster]

Hi Todd,
As you have seen here, there are many opinions on what are the best methods to treat new discus.
Those who also have experience with receiving wild discus tend to agree with the advise I have already provided you and those who's experience lies with mostly domestics disagree with the prophylactic treatments I outlined for you.
It does no harm to delay deworming a week or two and concentrate on general acclimation and building up the new fishes' strength but as Hans said, dealers just don't either have time to do a thorough deworming or may only begin it before the fish are sold without completing the course of treatment.
For those who have so much faith in distributors of discus to provide completely healthy fish, well, let's just say I haven't had the same experience and my specialty has been more with wild discus than domestics. Domestic discus are in another category.
I highly recommend domestic discus to the beginners.

[ShinShin]

Well, here we have a differing opinion on wild vs. domestic. I have always found wild discus easier to maintain. They are stronger fish.

Mat

[wilddiscuss]

Hi Todd,
As you have seen here, there are many opinions on what are the best methods to treat new discus.
Those who also have experience with receiving wild discus tend to agree with the advise I have already provided you and those who's experience lies with mostly domestics disagree with the prophylactic treatments I outlined for you.
It does no harm to delay deworming a week or two and concentrate on general acclimation and building up the new fishes' strength but as Hans said, dealers just don't either have time to do a thorough deworming or may only begin it before the fish are sold without completing the course of treatment.
For those who have so much faith in distributors of discus to provide completely healthy fish, well, let's just say I haven't had the same experience and my specialty has been more with wild discus than domestics. Domestic discus are in another category.
I highly recommend domestic discus to the beginners.

Thanks again Larry. You have helped me more than I can thank you for. I have some really special fish coming in. There are a lot of different opinions here on the forums. It makes it confusing to myself as a newbie and what not. But it all is in good spirit :) I have taken a little from everyone's advise. I am following the instructions that you gave me very close :) I thank you for that. I have decided to wait the week while acclimating them. While watching closley. I do plan on deworming them and treating for flukes. I just had a bad expirience my first time around with flukes and it ended up taking all of my fish as I told Larry. It was sad. My first attempt at discus. But you live and learn. I will post some pics as soon as I can. Thanks everyone!

Todd

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Todd,

With your post #22...you really do look like preparing for a war;).

All the best!!!

Andrew:angel:

[Apistomaster]

Well, here we have a differing opinion on wild vs. domestic. I have always found wild discus easier to maintain. They are stronger fish.

Mat

Hi Mat,
In many ways I agree with you.
There are two stages where wild Discus present challenges that are unique to wilds.
1. Receiving: Newly imported wild discus are usually in poor condition and they take some effort and TLC to restore them to peak condition. Once that has been accomplished, then I agree with you regarding how strong and vigorous they are.

2. Breeding: Wild Discus females are more difficult to bring into spawning condition than domestics. Once a wild pair does spawn I think they make better parents than most Domestic Discus.

[Discus-Hans]

Hi Todd,
but as Hans said, dealers just don't either have time to do a thorough deworming or may only begin it before the fish are sold without completing the course of treatment.


Larry,

I think that's a hars statement, I think it's a bad thing when a dealer does that.

When we get fish in we take after the first feeding as much as possible poo samples (and I'm not saying from every fish lol) and if we find something that need to be treated the Discus goes not out before the treatment is completed.
On of the reason I think that every Discus keeper needs a microscope (doesn't need to be an expensive one)

Todd I think you've more meds in stock as I've in my whole fish house lol

Hans (Not the Kloss one lol)

[Apistomaster]

Hi Hans,
I don't mean to sound harsh. I'm just being realistic. Most wild discus are sold as fast as possible and the importers can't possibly take all the desired steps to improve their Discus' condition and remain competitive with the other importers. If they keep fish very long they have to absorb higher losses and it is so easy for knowledgeable importers to persuade buyers with less experience with wild discus who lose some that the fault must lie with the end buyer. In truth, they can say, "We can't be responsible for the care our fish receive once they leave our possession". And in deceit, they can claim that, "None of our fish have died."
This is true for the fish business in general and is not limited to Discus alone.
Cynical? Yes. Pragmatic? Yes. Caveat emptor.
I you find a reliable supplier of wild Discus, treasure this contact. They make up the minority of those in the trade.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi guys,

It is in my opinion that most breeders and stockists of discus....whether for the wild or for the domesticated discus....do perform prophylactic treatment in their hatchery or import and export permises.

One of the most important reasons for performing prophylactic treatment on a regular basis is to save their own investment.....but then....this also has a indirect impact on exports or the discus sold....which is good.

It is my belief that most breeders and stockists perform prophylactic treatments that involve deworming, deflagellating, anti-protozoan, anti-bacteria ...so on and so forth.....regularly to prevent losses.

Then the question comes in "Why are there still many imports that fall sick resulting in mortality?" "Are exporters irresponsible?"

In my opinion, I don't think so that they are irresponsible....not at all.

Even if the discus are not for export, prophylactic treatment to rid of parasites is a norm and should have made most of the discus clean and ready. The different standard of discus exported or sold...in health term......is directly related to the scope of knowledge that seller has. In other words, you don't expect an ignorant person without any knowledge of drugs and chemicals and their effects to do a good and successful treatment, do you?

A very healthy discus exported depends greatly on good husbandry, owner's practices, owner's attitude and importantly his know-how.

Every breeder or stockist is trying their best to give you the best....within his own comprehension........and unfortunately.....some are limited....in knowledge of treatment.

I went to Indonesia and I asked the exporter of wild caught fishes what he uses as treatment. He told me "Don't worry, I have good method and all fishes very O.K." And you know what he uses?....only tetracycline......so you can see his limit and his iliteracy in fish disease.

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[Apistomaster]

Tetracycline...all is well.

I rest my case.