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blue acara
12-06-2007, 08:58 PM
Hi all, first time I've posted a topic so :wave: :)

Just got some Heckels, thought I would post a diary type thing here.:
My new wild Heckels arrived yesterday morning. I have 7 of them in a 55 gallon bare bottom tank. The tank has a couple pieces of wood and I have thrown in some weighted down plants for them to hide in. Water is GH 3 KH 2 TDS 110 ppm. No pics yet but their shape looks pretty good.

So far they are still very stressed and are all huddled together behind the wood and plants, the good news is they have eaten-I have seen most, maby all of them eat. I have fed them live bloodworm and live brineshrimp, and some have eaten a small amount of Tetra pro. I have used a turkey baster to get the food near them.

This morning, after having the room light on for an hour I turned on the aquarium light (60 watts). They did not appreciate this at all, some of them swimming erratically on the bottom of the tank. So I turned this off right away and put on a small 11 watt light.

Hopefully some good news and pictures to follow over the coming weeks. Wish me and the Heckels luck

blue acara
12-06-2007, 09:01 PM
Day 3 with the Heckles- I'm really happy to say every thing is good with them. :)
They are eating well, they still love the live foods and they are also enjoying some earthworm stick.

Here are some pics-

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/heckles.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/heckles2.jpg

They look good don't they!? There 3 inch long approx. After only 3 days of being in a new tank, I'm well impressed with them.

They don't seem to mind me getting close to the glass, or the camera.

They are beginning to interact with each other. flashing their tales at another ect.
When I turned off the 11 watt tonight(with the room light still on) they started swimming around the tank quite freely, always schooling tightly. Also I have seen them all together at the middle bottom of the tank leaning to the right then swimming a few inches forward, they seem to be showing off to each other- Very interesting to watch them.

The earthworm stick is great as it breaks up quite slowly in the tank, they enjoy nibbling at it.

Darren's Discus
12-06-2007, 09:36 PM
They look awesome,I want some !!!!


cheers

bavaria36
12-06-2007, 10:44 PM
They are beautiful. My next tank will be filled with Heckels....

Aaron

White Worm
12-07-2007, 02:23 AM
Where did you get them?

B-O-F
12-07-2007, 06:12 AM
They look good don't they!?

No.

They look FANTASTIC

I love wilds, especially Heckals.

blue acara
12-07-2007, 08:30 AM
Thanks for the comments guys.

I got them from http://www.plymouthdiscus.com/ a UK seller.
They had acclimatized, wormed and fed them. I got them in already excellent condition.
They were fairly expensive, but well worth it.

Kindredspirit
12-07-2007, 09:20 AM
Nice site! They have Arowanas...and they are micro-chipped! At first I thought they do that since they are jumpers...but it isn't like you won't find them....lol! Why do they microchip fish?

Your Heckels are nice:)

B-O-F
12-07-2007, 09:35 AM
Why do they microchip fish?



by the time they are filleted they are to small to have with full size chips. :)

Tropical Haven
12-07-2007, 09:45 AM
Very nice looking discus, keep us updated with pics of these guys in the next few months.

Rod
12-07-2007, 06:00 PM
by the time they are filleted they are to small to have with full size chips. :)

LOL BOF....but i think the americans only have fries!!

Rod
12-07-2007, 06:01 PM
Day 3 with the Heckles- I'm really happy to say every thing is good with them. :)
They are eating well, they still love the live foods and they are also enjoying some earthworm stick.

Here are some pics-

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/heckles.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/heckles2.jpg

They look good don't they!? There 3 inch long approx. After only 3 days of being in a new tank, I'm well impressed with them.

They don't seem to mind me getting close to the glass, or the camera.

They are beginning to interact with each other. flashing their tales at another ect.
When I turned off the 11 watt tonight(with the room light still on) they started swimming around the tank quite freely, always schooling tightly. Also I have seen them all together at the middle bottom of the tank leaning to the right then swimming a few inches forward, they seem to be showing off to each other- Very interesting to watch them.

The earthworm stick is great as it breaks up quite slowly in the tank, they enjoy nibbling at it.

Great looking Heckels, i want i want.

vera
12-08-2007, 07:35 AM
Great discus,i want some too:angel:
BTW do u mind telling what make earthworm sticks are , i've never seen them b4

blue acara
12-08-2007, 09:52 AM
Nice site! They have Arowanas...and they are micro-chipped! At first I thought they do that since they are jumpers...but it isn't like you won't find them....lol! Why do they microchip fish?


Arowanas are paternal mouthbrooders and produce small broods of fry and take a long time to reach maturity, so they've been vulnerable to exploitation for both food and the aquarium industry.

As a result, Asian arowanas have been protected under CITES, the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species.

The fish are not banned, and it is perfectly legal to trade in them, but the fish do have to be bred in captivity and all fish need to be tagged with a special identification microchip so authorities can tell that the fish are not taken from the wild.



Great discus,i want some too:angel:
BTW do u mind telling what make earthworm sticks are , i've never seen them b4

Here is a link to where I got them http://www.ta-aquaculture.co.uk/index.htm

Earthworm is a good food for fish. ;)
Apistomaster recommended them to me.

Dan S
12-11-2007, 06:25 PM
Hello Blue Acara,

They look great!! Heckles are so beautiful!! Chris has some beautiful fish down there in Plymouth.

I was tempted to get some myself but lack of space prevented it (always get the timing wrong!).

Good luck with them and keep us posted with thier progress.

Dan

plecocicho
12-12-2007, 02:20 PM
Your discus are so cute!!! I could fal in love with them instinatelly!:D. Have they grown since you took the photo ?
lp

blue acara
12-18-2007, 01:49 AM
Your discus are so cute!!! I could fal in love with them instinatelly!:D. Have they grown since you took the photo ?
lp

:) Yeah! I love them lots. I see them every day so I don't notice the growth-hopefully they have.

As I am off work for the holidays I am doing 50% water change daily and am feeding 5-6 times a day. They eat anything I put in the tank- they even munch on pleco wafers. I want to make them a beef heart mix or maby a turkey heart mix, what do you guys thing about feeding wilds beefheart-good or not?

Here are a few photos:
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/hechels4.jpg

In this photo you can see the different patterns on the fish at the moment. 2 have very strong 9 bars, 2 are more brown, and 3 have stronger blue lines on their flanks.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/hechels2.jpg

No flash here, still the small 11 watt light.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/heckels1.jpg

plecocicho
12-18-2007, 10:16 AM
Avoid beefheath at any cost!:mad: Heckel discus feed on plant matters most than other discus species (blue and green). Hearth acts like the steroids- It promotes fast growth, but it destroys organs when they are old and die prematurelly. Discus are not carnivores (e.g. do not eat vertebrate meat (fish, mammals, lizards, birds). You say tthat they enyoy pleco wafers. I would recommend you to use dry ffod on the plant basis as a main food. Yor beatuies are growing just fine.:D
lp

blue acara
12-18-2007, 02:44 PM
Yes I have read that beef heart damages Discus. So many people use it though with great success. Is there any scientific evidence or studies that show it damages them?

I guess I can make a food using fresh earthworm as the main ingredient.

Apistomaster
12-18-2007, 04:28 PM
I recommend only feeding beef heart blends as occasional treats rather than as their primary diet. Although I do not agree with the assertion that beef heart blends are harmful but I do agree it is not well suited for Heckels except as I've described.
I stand by my recommendations to feed Heckels earthworm sticks, frozen blood worms, live black worms, Spirulina sticks and Tetra Color Bits.
I plan to reformulate a few trial test beefheart blends containing blue berries, cranberries, CyclopEeze, Spirulina, earthworm flakes, FD Bloodworms and Vitamin supplements. The beef heart content will be reduced to about 50% by volume. Heiko Bleher suggested I try that and perhaps add banana.
I only feed my Heckels one or two feedings of the beef heart blend per week.

pcsb23
12-18-2007, 05:16 PM
I very, very rarely feed my wilds on beefheart. White worms, red wrigglers, fbw, various forms of shrimp, flake and granule food, plus plant matter. One day I will try berries....

yogi
12-18-2007, 10:39 PM
I don't feed beef heart to my discus, but I don't think there is any evidence of it causing damage to them. I don't use it because if it is not all eaten it will decay faster than any other food you feed and lower the water quality.

I also don't agree with feeding a lot of plant matter to heckels or any other discus. In the wild discus have to feed on whats available and if it's only plants then that is what they will eat. If caught and dissected that is what is found in their stomach. That does not mean it's there first choice in food nor does it mean they are getting the needed nourishment from plants. Discus are a short intestine animal. Short intestines are for meat not for plants. On the other hand gorilas are a long intetine animal and eat lots of plants.

Genirous
12-19-2007, 02:55 AM
Hi fellow-hobbyists,
about 10 days ago, we had the honour and privilige learning from worlds famous fish collector and discoverer Heiko Bleher itself!!!
He came to Athens, Greece for a two-day seminar and he talked about many things...


As for heckel nutrition, he said NO dried foods, NO beefhart, but fruits (like banana and blueberry) and live foods (like daphnia or raised artemia)...
He also said never feed wilds what bred discus are fed and never keep wilds with breds in the same tank...

blue acara
12-19-2007, 04:08 AM
Hi fellow-hobbyists,
about 10 days ago, we had the honour and privilige learning from worlds famous fish collector and discoverer Heiko Bleher itself!!!
He came to Athens, Greece for a two-day seminar and he talked about many things...


As for heckel nutrition, he said NO dried foods, NO beefhart, but fruits (like banana and blueberry) and live foods (like daphnia or raised artemia)...
He also said never feed wilds what bred discus are fed and never keep wilds with breds in the same tank...

Thank you for posting this. Unfortunately constantly feeding live food will become expensive with enriched artemia costing 70p per feed and 50p for bags of daphnia and bloodworm.
Chopped earthworm will go a way to replacing these, I am going to make a earthworm hatchery.
Ill give them some banana tomorrow- We will see if they eat this or not;)
I think some dry foods will still have to be on the menu.

Mick B
12-19-2007, 06:07 AM
Hi All,

Forgive me, but are we actually suggesting, that 'Tank bread/hybrid' Discus have evolved so much, since being lifted from the Amazon, that there basic digestion system is different????

Bleher's book (Vol 1) shows the high percentage of detritus and plant matter consumed, with very low land-based protines, but is this choice or nessesity?

Equally, there is a good artical (DPH Discus Page Holland) which delves into this and apparently, it's only plant protines which are absorbed (based on emsimes in gut etc).

There is also referance to the fungus contained in the detritus (fungus feeds on it and breaks down the plant matter), which could be the primary protine the Discus get from apparently eating detritus.

I can see and understand, that a wild fish, may not 'take' to flake or BH, but much the same as a European, would struggle with bar-b-qued Cat:(

Not that we can't eat it, or get benifit from it, but chomping on fluffy, is not acceptable.

Cheers, Mick B

Mo

Apistomaster
12-19-2007, 05:12 PM
Bleher found no fungus but a lot of freshwater sponges in gut analysis. Furthermore, sponges are typically infested with other "bugs". The detritus contains a myriad of small organisms including algae.
In general, the evidence is that discus are benthic grazers and opportunistic feeders on terrestrial fruits and blossoms on a seasonal basis.

I do think that after hundreds of generations of captive breeding that domestics have become different from wilds and are better adapted to the foods that they have been raised on these past five decades or so.

I incorporate a good deal of FD Blood worms into my discus blends and aside from their nutritional value, the blood worms greatly enhance the cohesiveness of my blend. I add them after blending the heart and fold them in by hand so they retain their shape. It does not fall apart into the small particles very much and allows me to use a relatively small amount of the agar binder. I also do everything I can to minimize the water content which also helps it remain cohesive. Beef heart makes up 50 to 60% of my blend by volume.

Mick B
12-20-2007, 11:41 AM
Bleher found no fungus but a lot of freshwater sponges in gut analysis. Furthermore, sponges are typically infested with other "bugs". The detritus contains a myriad of small organisms including algae.
In general, the evidence is that discus are benthic grazers and opportunistic feeders on terrestrial fruits and blossoms on a seasonal basis.

I do think that after hundreds of generations of captive breeding that domestics have become different from wilds and are better adapted to the foods that they have been raised on these past five decades or so.

I incorporate a good deal of FD Blood worms into my discus blends and aside from their nutritional value, the blood worms greatly enhance the cohesiveness of my blend. I add them after blending the heart and fold them in by hand so they retain their shape. It does not fall apart into the small particles very much and allows me to use a relatively small amount of the agar binder. I also do everything I can to minimize the water content which also helps it remain cohesive. Beef heart makes up 50 to 60% of my blend by volume.

Hi Larry,

I'm concerned over this word 'adapted', of course you get used to what mom, dad and othere eat, I've often found, a fish supposedly 'not taking to something' once hungry for 2 or 3 days, watching other tank mates munching away, will try alternatives (survival, after all!).

But, on one hand, we are told, Discus gut is not long enough to be just a Veggie, and Discus cannot digest plant matter, only protines derived from that matter, by fungal, enzimes and other critters etc, then, I read Bheler and see very high veggie and detritus intakes?

And being fair, when feeding Discus 100% BH (during medicated food treatment), I'm looking for solid black poos, as a sign of healthy fish?

Now, when us humans, go on the atkins diet, we get constpation and solid black poos!
Equally, my Darling wife, is 100% Veggie, has been for years,

So, (totally un scientifically:D) Discus are actually "Omnivores" and very oppertunistic.

So modifying your feeding 'make-up' to suit what they like, seems
to make sence;)

Cheers, Mick B

Apistomaster
12-20-2007, 12:32 PM
I do believe that domestic discus have "adapted" to a different diet through the selective pressures of captive life. it is inevitable.
This is true of almost all tank raised fish that have been in the hobby for decades. Those that do well are preferentially bred. This is not really something we have consciously done. We breed the survivors that do best. Over 50 years is easily long enough to make a difference between domestics and wilds. We have hundreds of color strains much different than wild type discus and I would submit the differences are now far more than skin deep. I think domestic Discus would find it difficult to adapt to the wild if they were to be introduced back to their waters of origin. Domestics breed in a much wider range of water chemistries than their wild counterparts but their brooding instincts are not a sharp as those of pure wilds..

Domestic discus are far more well suited to life in captivity than wilds. I would think this is self evident. Just as there is a difference between wild guppies and fancy or long finned Betta splendens and short finned wilds. There are many examples. Perhaps one of the best examples that is closer to discus is the difference between domestic angels and wild angels. It is much more difficult to breed wild angels than domestic angels. Breeding Heckels and Altum Angels is all but impossible. They still represent the pioneering edge of breeding. Documented spawns of these two species are clouded with doubts. Bleher still claims that only a small handful of well documented breeding accounts of purebred Heckels in captivity exist and I have seen no reasons to doubt him.
The purity of aquarium bred Altums is plagued with doubts as to whether they are purebreds. These fish are often referred to as "Rio Rhine Altums" and they are not considered true Altums by the vast majority of specialists. They often show the pearl scale trait; unheard of amongst wild caught Altums.
Of the examples of Heckel spawns described on simplydiscus, no one, to my knowledge, has gone on the show the progeny of these spawns as young adults. Just the spawning reports but no results after that except, "I sold them." Not a particularly confidence building way to show evidence that they were truly successful. I believe I want to see a pure bred aquarium strain of Heckels established as much as anyone but I believe we would be Heckel breeders have our work cut out for us.

Genirous
12-20-2007, 12:47 PM
Hi guys,

the issue about water parametres and nutrition goes far away... I'm very confused with all this...

Heckel discus is the only discus living in such acid waters and managed to survive and actually thrive in them...:(
It happens worldwide, not only sick and unhappy heckels, but merely survive in our tanks... Only few capable people manage them... (Unquestionable issue to breed them succesfully...) I'm still not one of them...
So... Do we give them the right water parametres...? Do we give them the right nutrition...?

All live organisms become opportunistic so that they manage to survive, but it is not a choice they make, they are forced to do so... Heckels when pass from dry-season to rainy-season, I believe they prove that they are not opportunistic feeders, because in spite of beeing able to eat a lot more worms, ants, termites etc traped in the water, they prefer fresh plant matter reducing the quantity of decayed one...

Friendly,
Giorgos

Apistomaster
12-20-2007, 01:44 PM
Hi Giorgos,
The Heckels are opportunistic feeders. They have to be to adapt to the changing food supplies available at different seasons.
That doesn't mean they eat anything available. They eat what they have evolved to eat that is available to them but still must fit with what they have evolved to eat.
In fact, I believe simulating their natural foods and the seasonal changes that occur within their habitat is the key to ultimately breeding them.
That said, I also think that as far as maintaining them in healthy conditions with the foods we have discussed using will result in thriving Heckels. They are not that difficult to keep healthy in captivity once they are acclimated to aquarium life.

How to simulate their flooded jungle spawning habitat is something I believe to be a difficult goal.
I believe that in an aquarium, we tend to keep them in what I consider their low water habitat which is largely why breeding them is so rare. At least that is my hypothesis. I don't find Heckels particularly difficult to keep healthy year after year. it is only the first month or two in our tanks when newly imported Heckels are recovering from all the capture and transit induced stresses are they very delicate.

Actually the Green Discus shares a very similar environment within it's range. That range is limited to water that is also devoid of dissolved inorganic solids but a lot of organics. Both are Black water species. Green discus waters are only slightly higher in pH but still usually 5.0 or less.

Genirous
12-20-2007, 03:10 PM
Hi Larry,:)

I don't disagree with Mick B or you (how could I?:o),
I just meant that heckel discus have chosen their diet in nature and decided what is most suitable for them... And they prefer plant matter, that I can see... :)

In Athens, when I asked Heiko Bleher if he knew people that bred pure wild heckels, he told me that he knows only one, which followed his advices and managed it. And we didn't talk only for egg-laying, but for succesfully raising juvenilles also...:(

Apistomaster
12-20-2007, 03:27 PM
Giorgos,
We are in agreement. As I mentioned, I have been going to begin experimenting with incorporating much more fruit in the form of dried cranberries and perhaps some blueberries in a few experimental beef heart blends. Beef heart blends are so easy to vary the recipe and I don't use as much heart as many people do. It's just that it is a good vehicle to deliver and disguise new foods that contributes to my use of it. Still, as a percent of their overall diet, beef heart makes up a small portion of my Heckels overall diet. It may prove that a blend consisting of only 20% heart and the rest the vegetable matter, FD Blood worms and earthworm flakes or perhaps the earthworm sticks folding in after blending the heart, CyclopEeze, Spirulina and vitamins would be added during the initial blending of the heart.
At least that's my plan. I'll probably try some banana, too. It might be necessary to add a lot of Ascorbic acid(Vitamin C) to reduce the oxidizing of the banana. Probably dried banana would be the best form to use as a component of a blend.

Heiko Bleher
12-23-2007, 03:40 PM
Hi Larry and hi Giorgos,

nice to see the discussion of you all about Heckel's and their nutrition and I naturally say, what I told during my seminars for those fantastic Greek people (I think no nationals can be more hospital than those ancient Troyans... one can also see it in the recent movoe 300, although it is not 100% as the true story), no beef heart.

Unfortunately, as I describe in my volume 1 (and more about this in volume 2), it was kind of "what can we do?" resolution during a cold (freezing) winter night at Schmidt-Focke's house in the 1960s. But anyhow, if Larry and his heckel's go for it and he uses 20% lean beef heart, and most of the remains vegetables, etc., than I am sure it will not harm you Heckel's, as long as they take it.

But Giorgos is for sure right in what he is saying about water parameters etc., you paid well attention during my seminars and/or by reading my book. Thank you.

Final suggestion: PLEASE give those wild Heckel's I have seen photos here, SAND, fine white sand, they need it desperately.

Now all the best and merry Christmas, and a Heckel-healthy new year...

always

Heiko

PS: And thanks to Greece again... you are wonderful people and hopefully we have such an event yearly. And to you Larry, thanks for the recommendation you have send to Husky, he passed them on to me.

Apistomaster
12-24-2007, 12:57 PM
Hi Heiko,
It is always good to hear from you.
As you realize, we can, at best, only try to simulate the actual diets of the Heckels or any wild discus for that matter. It will always be imperfect.
I do give mine the white quartz sand and they spend hours sifting it not unlike Geophagines. Here is how they are set up.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/P8200036.jpg

Genirous
12-26-2007, 08:31 AM
Hi Heiko Bleher,
I need to thank you again for making these seminars come true (with mine/your friend Nidal) and passing so many and valuable information to us! We have made a mini presentation of your seminar here (http://www.greekdiscus.com/test2000/showthread.php?p=3711#post3711), hope you don't mind us posting few of your slides... :o
Looking forward to learn from the best (you) again and soon!

I own your book for a little while (it is the one you signed, adressed to ''heckel discus lover''), but I haven't red it so good as Larry has and he knows much of your work.
It was I in the hotel hall passed Larry's words on to you and Husky was there also!

Nice talking to you again,
have a happy new year with health and prosperity,
best and kind regards (and many thanks again) from Athens, Greece

Giorgos Roussalis

plecocicho
12-26-2007, 10:24 AM
Many thanks Giorgus for posting a few slides of Heiko's lectures on net. It would be nice once to meet the man himself. I would probably got restraining order from him, because i would like to ask him so many questions not only from Amazon, but all other patrs as well. Working for him as a junior scientific assistant would be quite an andventure, as my hearth lies in field biology.
lp

blue acara
12-27-2007, 06:03 PM
Hi Larry and hi Giorgos,

nice to see the discussion of you all about Heckel's and their nutrition and I naturally say, what I told during my seminars for those fantastic Greek people (I think no nationals can be more hospital than those ancient Troyans... one can also see it in the recent movoe 300, although it is not 100% as the true story), no beef heart.

Unfortunately, as I describe in my volume 1 (and more about this in volume 2), it was kind of "what can we do?" resolution during a cold (freezing) winter night at Schmidt-Focke's house in the 1960s. But anyhow, if Larry and his heckel's go for it and he uses 20% lean beef heart, and most of the remains vegetables, etc., than I am sure it will not harm you Heckel's, as long as they take it.

But Giorgos is for sure right in what he is saying about water parameters etc., you paid well attention during my seminars and/or by reading my book. Thank you.

Final suggestion: PLEASE give those wild Heckel's I have seen photos here, SAND, fine white sand, they need it desperately.

Now all the best and merry Christmas, and a Heckel-healthy new year...

always

Heiko

PS: And thanks to Greece again... you are wonderful people and hopefully we have such an event yearly. And to you Larry, thanks for the recommendation you have send to Husky, he passed them on to me.

Hi Heiko, thank you for your input. Any reason why you suggest white sand over a darker sand?

Yesterday I added a thin layer of white sand, they seem to enjoy eating from it. It has caused a color change in them straight away. They are a lighter color, mostly due to the light reflecting from the white sand I think. The lines on the fish appear less blue and more white.

I hope Larry doesn't mind me posting his picture of his Heckels.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/Heckels0003rs-1.jpg
You can see the color difference between this pic and Larrys full tank shot above. Were you using a dark substrate in the tank for this picture Larry?

One pic of my Heckels before sand was added- The lines are starting to develop.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/heckel2.jpg

bavaria36
12-30-2007, 09:42 AM
Does the addition of a layer of sand at the bottom of these tanks create problems with cleaning the bottom ? I have recently moved my wilds to a BB tank from a planted tank and judging by the amount
of dirt I siphon off the bottom twice a day I am amazed that the fish survived that long in the planted tank. Even siphoning up the dirt is not enough. I need to really clean the bottom well with a brush every couple of days otherwise the water starts to cloud up.

I just got my hands on a 120 gallon that I plan to set up for Heckels so I need to decide whether to go BB and add the white sand as recommended in these posts.

Aaron

blue acara
12-30-2007, 02:47 PM
Cleaning the sand is Ok. Most of the feces still collects in the same place in the tank and is easy to siphon off. They do produce a lot of waste.

Göran Ekholm
01-01-2008, 01:09 PM
Some of mine ph 3,8 and 50 micosemens a pate whit sand where i feed theem whit a lot of fruits mixt whit a granulated food calld ALLER 500 Strawberrys are the favorits.

blue acara
01-01-2008, 04:18 PM
Goran they are looking good! How are you making the ph 3.8?
How do you mix the granulated food and fruit?

Göran Ekholm
01-02-2008, 04:10 PM
I put the fruits in the mixer and the granulat, mix and blend at all till you get the right consitens. I have traid meny typs of fruit, but me heckels prefer strawberrys. But i give them blueberrys strawberrys kiwi banans and mango. remember too mix itt well before you blend in the granulat.

To get pH 3,8 i let RO water flow constantly over som ting we in Sweden calls Torv it is full of humus and has a very low pH. After that water goes in to tank constantly so the water in the tank will be changd upp to 30% every 24 hovers. A water like this is werry unstabel. So you need too take it carefull. Try it in a system whit no fishs in for a coppel of weeks, so you now how mutch torv you need and howe big waterflo you need. Me RO meaks 150 liter 5 microsemens water every 24h and it goes in to a 450liter akvarium

blue acara
01-03-2008, 08:45 PM
Ok thanks Goran- So you blend the fruit and granulated mix them then freeze?

I guess what you call torv we call peat. This is something I will be looking to add to the filter or filter the ro water through it before adding to the tank. I need to look in to it.

Obviously your Discus are looking amazing so your water and food has a part to play in this.

Best pic I have taken so far- Looking good after one month.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/heckel3.jpg

Darren's Discus
01-03-2008, 10:06 PM
I just had to wipe the floor with all my drool,They look great guys !



cheers

Apistomaster
01-03-2008, 10:32 PM
Hi Giorgos,
Yes, The one photo that has the Heckel label was when they were over a dark basalt substrate. The camera flash has a lot to do with how the colors appear and their mood is a factor.
They would stay too dark most of the time over the dark substrate so I changed to the white quartz sand. I like the way they look over the light colored substrate best. Their colors are nicer. The stark white of the photo of the tank doesn't reflect the way it tones down after a little algae forms on it so it isn't as stark but still much lighter than the basalt.
My Sword plants are now almost 20 X 20 X 20 inches and now provide more filtered light and discus look better when they are under filtered or somewhat shaded lighted areas. They are almost purple at times when they are in "dark" phase; red with the blue striations

Apistomaster
01-03-2008, 10:49 PM
Here are couple of photos of them after the new substrate and more shade from the plants were available. These photos show more accurately how they appear now, day to day.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/DSC_9782.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/DSC_9791.jpg

plecocicho
01-04-2008, 08:59 AM
Blue Acara , your young heckels are beautifully coulered. Have they taken in lenghr much? Your Heckels are beautifull too, Apistomaster. What kind of suckermouth catfish is on your second picture?
Goeram, did you by torv meant white peat? As you are from Scandinavia, which has blessed you with soft water i presume( Scandinavia lies on a Scandinavian shield, a massive clump of precambrian rocks, just like Brazilian shield), Baltic states are close to you and they export white peat which is moe acid, than common black peat and acids and softenes your water more, than black peat. Am i right?
lp

Göran Ekholm
01-04-2008, 12:04 PM
You have real good diskus there Blue Acara and Apistomaster, whit a good and nutricus food they will be superanimals. Mine are a diffrent stain. But Apistomasters redstripped femal heckel i the picture is a favorit stain, where is it from?
It took like 6 months in perfekt water for mine too restor from the transport from the collector too me. But I think that adult heckels dont need so heawy food, there in more need fore fruits and sand so the stomic are in better shape. The outside is only a mirror of the inside! And the maiting seson just begon in the Amasonas som in the next month they gett even nicer. When a heckel is fealing GREAT it even loses its 5 dark bar and it will be a 5 lighter bar insted. A little like this, but more. This femal is fighting whit an adder femal over the best spot in the tank,

Regards Göran

pcsb23
01-04-2008, 08:54 PM
Larry, I am officially jealous of those Heckels, very nice indeed.

Darren's Discus
01-04-2008, 09:03 PM
Larry, I am officially jealous of those Heckels, very nice indeed.

You and me both,Larry it's about time you gave those heckels a holday and send them downunder to me !! lol



cheers

Apistomaster
01-05-2008, 03:30 PM
Thanks again for all your compliments.
These were sold as having been caught in the Rio Branco area, a large Rio Negro Tributary.
You can see a lot of variation as to the development of striations. Males tend to be the most colorful but I have plenty of females just as colorful as any male. I estimate my Heckels are about 2 years old. Young adults. They have about one more inch in diameter to grow. About half are six inches in diameter and the rest are 5 to 5-1/2 inches. I believe Heckels don't begin to breed until they are at least 2 to 2-1/2 years old.
You know, I am keeping them in straight tap water.TDS is ~340 ppm and pH is 7.4, no different than most of my fish.

The little out of focused "Pleco" is one of my many Sturisoma aureum fry I have many plus I am breeding Peckoltia spL134, Leopard Frog Plecos.
I like these fish and they are much like discus in that the parents, at least the males, care for their eggs and fry for a few weeks. Just like discus raise their fry through the required time until they are no longer dependent on their parents. I am working with six species of Dwarf fancy Plecos. Have been for 18 months. Seems only recently that the L66. L134, L204, L260 and L333 are reaching maturity. I have some L46 I got from a discus trade but they are still juveniles; 1-1/2 inches TL.
I'm trying to learn how to breed this group of fish for something new.

Except for Heckel not breeding. I have a routine approach with discus breeding so I wanted new things to learn.

Heiko Bleher
01-07-2008, 09:23 AM
Hi, new Heckel owner,

yes you have some nice Heckel discus there, but I must warn you: your aquarium is WRONG, you have not givem them the adequate environment and sooner or later you will have the problem most Heckel discus keepers have had (or still have),

Your bear tank gives so much reflections, that you drive sooner or later your poor Heckel discus insane. THEY NEED fine white sand, the need place to hide, to be under shade, they need driftwood, etc., etc.

You better read some of the threads under this fori=um and/or my book.

All the best

Heiko Bleher

blue acara
01-07-2008, 11:48 AM
Like I said in a previous post I HAVE added white sand:



Yesterday I added a thin layer of white sand, they seem to enjoy eating from it. It has caused a color change in them straight away. They are a lighter color, mostly due to the light reflecting from the white sand I think.



I agree the tank is a bit sparse at the moment.
There is one large piece of wood and one small piece in the tank. I have been looking for some nice branchy pieces to add and will be soon.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/tank8.jpg

regards
Dave

blue acara
01-07-2008, 05:43 PM
Just thought I should post some pics of the Heckels swimming around the tank- with and without flash.

I have to say I have taken some offense to Mr Blehers comments. I only want the very best for these fish and I am trying to give them the best home possible.

If they were in a bad way in this tank I would have made changes already. Their behavior tells me that they are doing quite well in this tank. Their color has improved, they have grown and they swim around the tank fairly freely.
I should say that sometime they have become spooked by my movement and they swim very quickly to behind the wood, this has happened a few times.

This tank is not complete yet, as I say in the last post I will be adding more wood asap. In 6 months-1 year I will be moving these beautiful fish to a 100-125 uk gallon tank.

pics from today-
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/discus2.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/discus4.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/discus3.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m72/blueacara/discus.jpg

Dave

plecocicho
01-08-2008, 08:31 PM
Your heckels are developing beautifully, blue acara. I am sure, that Mr Bleher didnot want you to offend you, it is just that he has seen misusused discus to many times. Apart from wood you sholud have few floating plants to create little shade for those little cute bastards. I hope you do not ffed them beef hearth.
lp

tonymaccs
01-12-2008, 05:06 PM
I have to say I have taken some offense to Mr Blehers comments.
Dave

Unbelievable- if someone of Mr Bleher's reputation were to take the time to offer me some tips I'd be putting my ego aside and listening intently.

tonymaccs
01-12-2008, 07:36 PM
That's lovely- thanks.
You seem to have forgotten it's a public forum.

brewmaster15
01-13-2008, 12:13 PM
Hi all,

I have editted some comments out of this thread that were inappropriate...


While a member may not like the advice that is given them...I see no reason for it to turn into a belligerent thread...
I realize that it can be frustrating when we read something that rubs us the wrong way....but lets please try to keep it civil.

Thank you,
al

blue acara
01-14-2008, 12:57 PM
Fair enough. Deleting my whole comment makes it appear worse than it actually was. I apologize for the use of ***', couldn't you just have removed that?

I don't want this thread to turn into a stupid argument.;)

brewmaster15
01-14-2008, 02:53 PM
Dave,
It wasn't just the vulgarity...it was the tone......It really wasn't necessary...

Theres no need to worry about....its ancient history...lets just move on.:)


best of luck with the heckels...

-al

blue acara
01-14-2008, 10:33 PM
Ill get my coat.