I Think I did something wrong. Cycling....HELP!

[wilddiscuss]

Ok I have a chart on my ammonia tester, and I think I have been keeping the ammonia at the wrong level. Please tell me I am wrong. :( I have been keeping the ammonia at 0.3 and 0.6 on the chart. I hope that is 3 and 6 ppm. I am not sure. But at this point the ammonia just dropped to zero and the nitrite is spiking. If I am keeping it at the wrong level....is there anything I can do at this point to fix what I have done? Can I bring up the ammonia to the right ammount and it will just make the nitrite spike long to compansate? I am not sure but I looked at it today I thought to myself, was it supposed to be between the 3.7 and 6.1 mark on the chart ??? I feel stupid. :( I don't know. Please Help!!!! I have five...5 inch discus paid for and awaiting completion of my fishless cycle. Also the tank is a 75 gallon with a 5 gallon sump.

Below is a pic that I photoshoped so that you can see where I have kept the level. Please I hope it is right :confused:

It is from the hegan test kit for ammonia.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/2470/1001216oo7.jpg

The date is wrong on the pic...sorry.

[JasonE]

Bro, if I'm understanding you properly then you really don't have anything to worry about. If you were maintaining a measurable level of ammonia and not showing any nitrites and then suddenly ammonia goes to zero and nitrites spike that simply means that the first part of the cycle has completed successfully. The thing to do is to continue to feed these bacteria (Nitrosomonas) while the second type (Nitrobacter or Nitrospira depending on who you ask) establish themselves.

If you feel like you haven't been feeding enough ammonia to create a strong enough colony for the fish you have coming then you can simply gradually increase the level you are feeding. This will create a larger colony of bacteria (more food means less competition). The colonies of bacteria will size themselves to the amount of food available to them, whether it be alot or only trace amounts. Though there is a lag time involved.

Keep in mind that your biological filter is ever changing just as your fish are. As your fish grow they will produce more waste providing more food for nitrifying bacteria and their numbers will grow proportionally. Also keep in mind that it would be almost impossible to size your colonies exactly to the bio load you have coming, the best you can do is make sure you have a strong seeding of your filter before they arrive. There will be some sort of adjustment once you add the fish whether it be a build up due to too small numbers or a slight die-off due to the fish and food not producing enough waste to sustain the existing colonies you have created. Just be prepared to monitor your levels once the fish have been added and also be prepared to do some sizable water changes and maybe add some salt if you detect any spikes to help keep the pressure off the fish while your bio-filter "catches up".

PS: Personal Oppinion....I wouldn't go overboard, you have five semi-adults coming which will be substantial bio load but you also have ~75 gallons of water which is a nice volume for that number and size. I would go moderate and shoot for the middle of the range. Maybe bump it up to around 3, you have time, you still have to wait for the nitrite reducing bacteria to colonize.

HTH,
Jasone

[geleen]

Looks like you are well on your way:)

I just finished a similar cycle and when I added 5 adult fish, I also added seachem stability for the first week. All was well.

You could start stability now, it will speed things up, and as mentioned slowly increase the NH3 added.
The aim now is to keep daily measurement of NH3 at 0 and allow the NH2 to fall to 0 as well.
I was adding 3 cc NH3 daily at the end of the cycle to a 60 gallon, but I do not know the strength of the ammonia I purchased.(likely 5% it was cheap)
Do a large water change before adding fish to get the nitrates below 10.
J

[wilddiscuss]

Bro, if I'm understanding you properly then you really don't have anything to worry about. If you were maintaining a measurable level of ammonia and not showing any nitrites and then suddenly ammonia goes to zero and nitrites spike that simply means that the first part of the cycle has completed successfully. The thing to do is to continue to feed these bacteria (Nitrosomonas) while the second type (Nitrobacter or Nitrospira depending on who you ask) establish themselves.

If you feel like you haven't been feeding enough ammonia to create a strong enough colony for the fish you have coming then you can simply gradually increase the level you are feeding. This will create a larger colony of bacteria (more food means less competition). The colonies of bacteria will size themselves to the amount of food available to them, whether it be alot or only trace amounts. Though there is a lag time involved.

Keep in mind that your biological filter is ever changing just as your fish are. As your fish grow they will produce more waste providing more food for nitrifying bacteria and their numbers will grow proportionally. Also keep in mind that it would be almost impossible to size your colonies exactly to the bio load you have coming, the best you can do is make sure you have a strong seeding of your filter before they arrive. There will be some sort of adjustment once you add the fish whether it be a build up due to too small numbers or a slight die-off due to the fish and food not producing enough waste to sustain the existing colonies you have created. Just be prepared to monitor your levels once the fish have been added and also be prepared to do some sizable water changes and maybe add some salt if you detect any spikes to help keep the pressure off the fish while your bio-filter "catches up".

PS: Personal Oppinion....I wouldn't go overboard, you have five semi-adults coming which will be substantial bio load but you also have ~75 gallons of water which is a nice volume for that number and size. I would go moderate and shoot for the middle of the range. Maybe bump it up to around 3, you have time, you still have to wait for the nitrite reducing bacteria to colonize.

HTH,
Jasone

So it sounds like the 0.3 and 0.6 was wrong and my levels should have been up between the 3.7 and 6.1 range. :( Well the nitrite is still spiked. If I bring up the ammonia to the 3.7 and 6.1 range now... then wait for the ammonia to drop around zero again.... I should be ok, then I will only add about half of what is needed once it drops...let say around 1 or 2 ppm.... then I should be ok it will just take a bit longer for the nitrite to drop at this point and will probably take a week or so longer. Does that sound lioke the right thing to do? I want to make sure I seed the biological filter enough. Looks like I will have to wait a little longer for my discus :( Is that safe to do at this point is raise the ammonia level while the nitrite is spiked?

Todd

[mikel]

Why dont you go to the LFS and get the Bio-Spira live bacteria...and simply pour the content into the filter? I used that, and within four days, I had fish in my tank. mike

[wilddiscuss]

Why dont you go to the LFS and get the Bio-Spira live bacteria...and simply pour the content into the filter? I used that, and within four days, I had fish in my tank. mike

No offense I just don't trust things like cycle and biospira. Skipping through a cycle for seeding just doesn't seem like it would be a safe seeding. I dunno just my opinion. I would rather add more ammonia and wait it out. Thanks though. I just hope it is safe to do at this point and bring it up to the 3.7 and 6.1 mark while the nitrite is spiked.

Todd

[JasonE]

WD,

You should be ok as long as it's done gradually and not in a single shot. In a fully cycled bio-filter ammonia and nitrite are being reduced simultaneously on a constant basis. It shouldn't hurt to begin raising your ammonia levels, especially if you are showing nitrites but zero levels of nitrates. If this is the case then the Nitrobacter/Nitrospira have not colonized yet and you really shouldn't have to wait any longer than if you had started with a higher concentration to begin with. Just my opinion but I think you are still ok on your time line if your tank has just "flipped" to the second part of the process.


I feel stupid. :(

Don't feel like this bro, do you know how many hobbyists out there don't even understand the nitrification process? Tons just dump fish into a freshly set-up tank and their fish sit there and "stew" in toxins until the process happens on it's own. Don't let yourself get stressed, you are doing well. :) In absence of a previously established bio-filter, fishless cycling is a great way to prepare for your new stock and you aren't really doing anything wrong that I can see.

PS: I have actually read alot of good things about biospira, never used it myself. You might not want to use as a total replacement but might consider it for supplementation. I have used cycle personally and definitely never felt like it helped, though I doubt it really hurt anything either.

[wilddiscuss]

Ok well I just checked my Nitrite and Nitrate and these are the readings:

Nitrite - Spiked to max of what my tester reads which is 3.3

Nitrate - is spiked to max of 110

What should I do? Should I raise the ammonia to 3-6 ppm?

I was thinking I would bring it up to 3ppm the wait 8 hours and add a bit more ammonia to bring it up to about 5 ppm. Is that slow enough to raise the ammonia?

[Tropical Haven]

At this point you should be checking your ammonia too. If it reads 0 then add a little ammonia to feed your filter until your nitrites start going down, once this happens your almost home.

[wilddiscuss]

At this point you should be checking your ammonia too. If it reads 0 then add a little ammonia to feed your filter until your nitrites start going down, once this happens your almost home.

My ammonia does read zero. But my problem is I didn't officially start out with enough ammonia. I only had 0.3 - 0.6 and I was supposed to be between the 3.7 and 6.1 area of my ammonia testing kit pictured above. I want to add more ammonia to bring up my seeding for the biological filter with out messing up the cycling process. I was wondering if this sounds like the correct thing to do with the ammonia at zero and these reading I wrote above:


Ok well I just checked my Nitrite and Nitrate and these are the readings:

Nitrite - Spiked to max of what my tester reads which is 3.3

Nitrate - is spiked to max of 110

What should I do? Should I raise the ammonia to 3-6 ppm?

I was thinking I would bring it up to 3ppm the wait 8 hours and add a bit more ammonia to bring it up to about 5 ppm. Is that slow enough to raise the ammonia?

Does this sound like the right thing to do?

Todd

[Apistomaster]

I would change 2/3 of the water, add Biospira or similar, add fish and continue with 50% water changes every third day.

I think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be.

I don't go through nearly as much as you before I add my discus.
Five discus in 75 will not cause a problem unless you grossly overfeed them. I would use live black worms at first. They stay alive until they are eaten and also contribute varied bacteria, including the nitrifying species. If you also transfer the filter that is in their quarantine tank that should be enough to safely get them through any transitional period. Your wet/dry needs a little real bioload and will fall right into place soon after adding the fish.

[wilddiscuss]

I would change 2/3 of the water, add Biospira or similar, add fish and continue with 50% water changes every third day.

I think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be.

I don't go through nearly as much as you before I add my discus.
Five discus in 75 will not cause a problem unless you grossly overfeed them. I would use live black worms at first. They stay alive until they are eaten and also contribute varied bacteria, including the nitrifying species. If you also transfer the filter that is in their quarantine tank that should be enough to safely get them through any transitional period. Your wet/dry needs a little real bioload and will fall right into place soon after adding the fish.

I know but I just over worry I guess. I just want it to be seeded enough. I guess I'll just raise my ammonia a bit while the nitrite is spiked and wait until it falls. Add the discus and watch my levels for a couple of weeks.

[dishpanhands]

If you are reading nitrate raising then you filter is started..I would feed ammonia for a couple of days. I would up the amount to get about 5ppm for the next couple days that would be about .6 in your picture. If you have to add ammonia a couple times a day you can if it hits 0..once you have nitrate the nitrites will drop quick. My advice for you is to relax a little. there are some that keep them without a filter at all (Al was trying it not sure how its going). best thing to do is always keep enough warm aged water ready and enjoy your fish.

[mktorn]

Similar situation.
I have 65 gallon tank with Eheim Classic 2217 filter with bio media.
I started a week ago with Stability 7 capful first day and 5ml ammonia. Then I keep daily 5 ml ammonia and 4 capful of Stability (as it is in instruction). Ammonia suddenly dropped at Saturday (4th day) and nitrites are very high. I still with same scenario and now I have nitrites and nitrates BUT both are on the high level. My most concern is why nitrites aren’t dropped yet? And more, if the instruction is right the cycling should be finished in a week, but it seems not yet
Please advice,

Michael

[kaceyo]

Just to clarify a bit. You are right in that you should have been keeping ammonia levels between 3.7 and 6.1 on your chart. The .6 level on your chart is exactly that, 0.6 ppm or mg/ltr (both are the same for our purposes), not 6.0. That said, it's no big problem since the filter is near fully established. Just keep the ammo level at the correct amount now and the filter will catch up quickly. You could add fish with it as is (once nitrite drops) without problems as long as you kept up WC's and used a dechlor/ammo detox product like Prime or AmQuell.
Remember to remove and replace ALL the water in the tank/filter with fresh water before adding fish to the system. It's loaded with nitrate and by-products of the cycling process.
Good Luck,

Kacey

[wilddiscuss]

Similar situation.
I have 65 gallon tank with Eheim Classic 2217 filter with bio media.
I started a week ago with Stability 7 capful first day and 5ml ammonia. Then I keep daily 5 ml ammonia and 4 capful of Stability (as it is in instruction). Ammonia suddenly dropped at Saturday (4th day) and nitrites are very high. I still with same scenario and now I have nitrites and nitrates BUT both are on the high level. My most concern is why nitrites aren’t dropped yet? And more, if the instruction is right the cycling should be finished in a week, but it seems not yet
Please advice,

Michael

Once the ammonia drops to zero...have you only been adding about 1 to 2 ppm of ammonia daily? That's all you should once the ammonia drops. Then in a week, sometimes two, your nitrite will drop. Your nitrate will be sky high no matter what, becuase of your cycling process. So you have to do around a 90% water change to get all that out of there and bring your nitrates below 10 ppm. You want to keep below that range from what everyone has told me in this forum. It will then become toxic to your fish after that point.

HTH,
Todd

[mktorn]

Thank you, Todd.
Your advice keeps my hope alive:). I've already been thinking to restart whole cycling from scratch.

Thanks again,
Michael

[kaceyo]

There is no need to re-start. Your nearly done as is. Your filter is cycling fine, just not as much bacteria as it might have had if you'd been adding more ammo, but it will catch up very quickly now that it's established.

Kacey

[mktorn]

Hi there,
I would like to just update and share the solution that worked as a miracle.
I changed 100% of water at Friday. I get my 8 first (in my life) young discus from Tina (Barb Newell fish). I was advices by Barb (God bless her:angel:) to take two-three hydrosponges from her. I get three and set them in. Water test shows 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite - just next day morning! Fish seems to be in good condition so far.:D
Thanks to all for your support.

Michael