Crazy swimming heckel

[Gajowa]

Hi to everyone
We bought 7 wild heckels ( 5-6" in size) in January this year. They arrived with lot of abrasions on their bodies and we had to treat them for that with Tetra medications. They were feeding on the 2-nd day, and everything looked good. About 2 weeks later one began "crazy swimming" on it's side all over the tank, then doing circles and showing very strong colours. When it calm down for a moment, we caught it and put it into a bucket of water with salt added for 15-20 min. This treatment seemed to work for about 16 days, and again the heckel would swim with the speed of light. Again we put the fish into salty water. It was going on like this for 4times. Finally we decided to give this fish for an autopsy, which shows, that heckel was affected with ichthyosporidium hoferi. Prescribed treatment was to use a 2-fenoksyetanol in food for 2 weeks. All fish were removed to a bb sterile tank and treated. Their main aquarium was totaly desinfected. That was in April.
Everything was ok. Heckels eat well and 3 had grown to a 18-20cm fish. Last weekend it began again. The smalest heckel went crazy

Did someone had this problems with their hecleks? Is there anything that can be done? What causes this speeding?

Aquarium 350 l (92 gal) pure R/O
pH - 5
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 5-10
NH3 - 0
kh - 0
gh - 6
temp 29 deg Celsius

Diet; spirulina flakes, frozen spinach, Tetra pro, Tropical vegetable flake food, Flake food with garlic, Sera discus, Hikari, 2x a week beef or turkey hart, seafood mix all home made.

Water changes 30% weekly.

Barbara

[brewmaster15]

Hi Barbara,

ichthyosporidium hoferi is a very serious fungal infection... and as far as I know there is no known cure.:( I'm sorry.

-al

[SuAsati]

Try Furanace + Neomycine the litle one wont make but the rest may help. also, strilise all equipmants.

[brewmaster15]

Suasati,


Furanace + Neomycine meds like that will help with secondary bacterial infections caused by the Fungal infection...but unfortunately they won't help treat the cause...

ichthyosporidium hoferi

If I was to suggest anything...a medication like Nystatin may be of help....it may at least keep the fungus from spreading.

-al

[SuAsati]

Nifurpirinol is also fugicid

[Chinaman]

Hi,

I had something similar, the first batch were around 3" to 4" lost all ten of them after about 3 months. mad dash and swimming round and round. losing one every other day. it was quite scary. got a second batch (5") a year later similar things happened after 3-6 months. they were kept in a centralise system with domestic but not the same tank. I have got two left now....

[plecocicho]

You sholud consider replacing frozen spinach with otehr vegetable, because spinach has been known to bind Ca ions in the stomach of animals causing calcium deficiency.
lp

[Apistomaster]

Al is correct. Icthyosporidium is untreatable. Much of the anomalous behavior is probably a result of brain or nervous system damage done by the organism. I am sorry I can't recommend a silver bullet but we just don't have cures for all diseases.

[Gajowa]

Hi
I will give you a litlle update on my heckels and what we have done and so far it helped. We lowered temperature to 27deg C, pH to 4 and added plenty of peat moss (in the bag) to a tank. That "crazy" heckel stayed by that bag for a couple of days and was picking on it. The speeding stoped. The fish looks ok now. I am not so sure about that fungus if it is responsible for speeding. I have read in book titled "Healty discus" writen by polish discus breader, about medicine called Ketokonazol. Aparently it is very effective against that fungus. The treatment is long, around 5 mths, and I will try this to our new wild discus (blues and greens), because we lost 2 to speeding just 10 days ago. If this is realy Icthyosporidium it would mean, that most wild cought discus are affected by it.
Dose enyone have a microscopic photo of that fungus to place it here?

Barbara

[Apistomaster]

Here is more info but it won't make you happy.
http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/information/Diseases.htm#Ichthyosporidium

I would keep your newly received wild Discus much warmer at first but never lower than 28.5C for general maintenance.
For the first ten days, 32.5C.

Ichthyosporidium is ubiquitous and usually fish in poor condition are very susceptible to it. I have never seen it effect many discus at once or consecutive shipments come down with it. I think you may have something else going on; at least consider the possibility.
I wonder is your shipments are getting severely chilled during transit?

[tonymaccs]

Hi Barbara,
I wonder did the autopsy go beyond identifying the presence of ichthyosporidium hoferi and indicate it as the cause of mortality?
If not, then I would not totally discount it, but keep looking to other causes for the symptoms as indicated.
Tony

[Göran Ekholm]

I dont think that it is the parsit that maks the diskus go crazy, i beleve its the damage the parasit makes to the fish nerval system. A little like epleptiks. When the symptoms apper the fish nerval sysem is allready damisht. I have 3 of this fishes they go crazy avery time i make big water changes, only this 3 and the rest of the time they are in exelent shape. I lost 7 of the grope but this 3 i treated whit Flubenol and 3* 7 days let them rest for a week and repited it all over agin. Totaly 3 times. But like a sayd i saved 3 of 10. And they are damegd for life. Flubenol starvs low standing organisms by stoping there posebilety too feed. Totaly harless for the fish. If you mix it whit DSMO it will kill eggs of parcits directly and you dont need too treat for so long time.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi, all of you Heckel-problem-having guys,

this is Heiko Bleher and I wonder is anyone of you (except for Larry, which I know) has read my book, volume 1? Surely than you all would have a little better understanding for Heckel discus.

First of all, I wanted to tell you all, what Barbara did for her Heckel discus, was very good (and as it seems she never had this problem). You all must know, Heckel discus are the most sensitive of all wild discus, they come (all) from the most extreme (chemical) water parameters of all discus and that already makes them special. (Check my book.) Secondly, they come from extreme blackish (dark) waters, and are very sensitive against reflections - sudden lights turning on of off. From reflection in glas aquariums not correctly decorated for them (ie not with fine white sand, not having a dark background - dark brown, or black, or with driftwood decorated) and only bright light from the top without them having a chance to find a shady area, which they need - as in nature (one can reate it easily with floating plants).

You must watch out for this, otherwise it will come again and again that they go "crazy". They cannot take normally any of this. It is their nature to be frightend and they speed around notstop and can kill themselfs this way. If you all give them the correct water, adequate habitat (decoration) and you do not move fast (or have their aquarium where people walk by all the time or near slamming doors) you should have no problem. And general speaking, forget about the disease, that is not the problem of your Heckel discus. Only if they are wrongly kept, not feed well (I wrote 80 pages on nutrition in the wild with all kinds of suggestions...), weakend or over heated (sorry Larry, I do not think one should hold/keep/or give Heckel discus 32.5 degrees Celcius - that is way to much).

So follow (please) my advice and read... and you have probably no more problems with Heckel discus, as they are tough fishes.

Always

Heiko Bleher

[Göran Ekholm]

I agree on what you sade Heiko i do.

But i have seen sceerd fishes, but mine svimed arund its own axel until it died. This fishes where very sick. Meny diskus live ther lives in total panic and almost all of them goes to an too early deed i agree on that.

But the tings i deskribe whas an illnes from to long and hard trip from the amasonas to me. The fishes got infekted by some paracit. If you all have seen them you had beleved me.

[Gajowa]

Hi everyone

First, I would like to answer to questions you have asked.

Larry, fish were very chilled!!! Temperature of the water they came in was only 20 deg C. One discus didn't survived the journey, two were hardly breathing.

Tony, I don't think the autopsy was carried beyond, ones that fungus was diagnosed. Lady who done this found also 2 gill flukes present, but surely that wasn't the cause of death.

I think that speeding is caused by poisoning. Long travel to Europe, little water and oxygen in the bags, and discus become poisoned by NO2. Out of 15 fish that arrived to us at the end of November, 3 begun speeding about 3-4 weeks after arrival. We lost 2, 1 is ok now. Water change helped and lovered pH and temperature, and added peat. This fish are still in b/b quarantine tanks with dimish light and driftwood only.

Heiko says, that proper water, sand, driftwood, proper diet as well as floating plants on the surface is needed to keep heckels happy and in good condition. We did all that. Heckel's were only i b/b tank during treatment. Before speeding happened again, we remooved floating limnophyla, there for they had more light. We also added to the water this thiny alder cones soake in boiling water. Most people in Europe do this, and we think that was a mistake. After 2-3 hours heckels become very stresed. Imediatly we put a carbon into internal filter, but..........few days later speeding begun. That is why we think that poisoning causes this behavior.

Heiko, fish that was affected the most (we tought we will loose it)you have seen in Italy at 4-th Mediterranian Discus Competition in September 2007. It was shown under my partners name and member of PKMD (Polish Club of Discus Lovers). You and mr Andrew Sieniawski were talking at that show. Maybe you remember? It was the only heckel shown from Poland, which according to a german judge it wasn't a heckel and was disqualifyed., like all other heckels in that class.

This are our heckels in their 350 l tank, together with that "non heckel"

Barbara

[Apistomaster]

Barbara,
I think your fish look like they are doing much better.

I suspected they had been severely chilled. How I knew is difficult to convey; suffice it to say I have received a lot of Discus over the years. I do think they experienced much colder temperatures than 20*C you measured and no discus will go through a severe chilling without some serious problems developing.

I keep mine at 28*C except during the first week or so after immediately receiving them. That is when I elevate it to about 32*C for about seven days.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Barbara,
You mentioned one of the Heckels you have is different enough to raise a question about whether it is a cross with a Blue. Could you show a photo of that fish? All those I seen appear to be normal and beautiful Heckels.

[Göran Ekholm]

Check this link and you will se that it can not be an heckelcross it most be a pure heckel. The heckel gene is not a strong gene. Almost none off F1 heckelcross gets the 5 strong stressbar.

I serios dovt that it is more blue in that heckel than it is heckel in Alenqer even dowe they got a stronger 5 Bar.

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Crossing_a_Wild_Heckel_with_a_Cobalt_Blue_Discus.h tm

[Gajowa]

This is the link to all winners of that competition. At the botom of that page you will see photos to all fish shown. Our heckel is on photo nr 5.

http://www.mondodiscus.com/discus/it/articoli-mondodiscus/campionship-discus-italy-2007.html

German judge disqualify all heckels, because they had red eyes. In his opinion true heckels must have a black eyes. As far as I know, he mooved all that fish to a Wild blue class, except our. Our fish wasn't judged at all.

We have this heckels for over a year now. This speeding really worries me.
New greens and blues are better now as well. I hope it will stop forever.

Goran, if you will be in Poland one day, please come and visit us in Cracow.
This year PKMD will hold a II-nd Discus Championship Show in June.
Heiko most probably will be in Cracow as well, so we well have a lot to talk about

Barbara

[plecocicho]

Barbara, it is nice to see that Poland discus have won so many prizes, althouht only for second or third place. My congratulations to our Slavic brothers :D !
You can see in Bleher Discus, that not all Heckels have black eyes. I do not understand judges opinion:confused:
And your heckels are beauties!
lp

[Apistomaster]

Using eye colors as an important feature in wild discus class at shows always struck me as stupid. Since when does Nature design her fish for a judge to evaluate its worth? It is the way it is on purpose. It is especially ignorant to apply this rule to Heckels. Their eye colors is often very dark but it is also changeable depending on moods and lighting. Sometimes mine have very dark red eyes and sometimes nearly black.
I'll get off my soap box for now.

[brewmaster15]

German judge disqualify all heckels, because they had red eyes. In his opinion true heckels must have a black eyes. As far as I know, he mooved all that fish to a Wild blue class, except our. Our fish wasn't judged at all. That makes absolutely no sense to me..If thats how people are determining if a fish is a heckel or not...no wonder theres confusion in this hobby. Judging is by nature subjective..but I find that to be extreme..

Beautiful Heckels you have there!:)

-al

[Gajowa]

http://www.discuspassion.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=181&Itemid=68

Hi
You can read what Heiko thought about that judging!!!.
We were little worried about our fish to be send over there (stress of the long travel, strong lighting) but our PKMD members took care of everything. Form their relation at first we got furious that we send that discus unneseserly. But it was worthed, because many people thought, it was the best heckel there.
And yes, heckels eye color depend on fish's mood, background and lightning, but this judge didn't take this under consideration.

We are glad you like our heckels

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi Barabara, Larry and all the others,

first of all, I hope the speeding has stopped. I agree that it can also be something which came into the the water, which made the Heckel discus nuts(crazy), that is possible, as well as what I mentioned, sudden reflections and or noise, or slapping door(s), Heckels are very easy to get stressed. As a matter of a fact, shortly before Christmas I visited Hustinx in Belgium and he had received some beautiful Heckel discus from the Rio Nhamunda (were I discovered S. discus for the first time, some of those which the German ex-breeder, Mr. Goebel, dis-classified in Lecce, Italy, see below). As we walked up to the tank, he opened up the light and just put his hand on top, and some of those went like crazy speeding around, only when I told him to take the hand away, lowering the light and stepping back, they calmed down. Terrible but that is the effect of reflections and sudden moves towards Heckel discus – very typical (and he has them in only glass tanks).

Now with regards to the red eyes in Heckel discus or not: some of you already noticed well in my book, and Larry also said it, that is totally ridiculous to judge a discus species by its eye colour. Total none-sense. Mr. Goebel probably did this crazy judging (and influenced all other judges in souther Italy in September) by purpose, because I was there and he hates me. But I do not know why. I made him popular, although he was just a very small breeder (and never anything else). I put his name as junior author on my book DISCUS (1992), the ring-binder, although he did help very little on that book (and only in the first part, as all additions, from 1993 through today, he never ever helped again). I made a series of videos (The World of Discus Parts I to IV), and in one of them (Part III), I filmed him and named it The modern discus breeding (after I did the conventional with Dr. Schmidt-Focke). Those videos were sold more than 44,000 copies in 5 languages worldwide. And only after that, Mr. Goebel has become "famous" and be was invited in may places, but about wild discus he actually never learned very much (as one could see in Lecce). He must (is) jealous, and tries to talk bad (and wrong things) about me, everywhere he can. I feel sorry for him. And I feel sorry for the brave Italians from the Salento Aquarium association who have put up a great show in a beautiful building (see also my page: www.aquapress-bleher.com under Latest news), but had invited the worst person to head the judging and it was a total disaster. The most unprofessional judging in history of discus championships worldwide... And I am sorry for the public (over 50,000), who was unable to see which fishes have been judged, and for the great People coming all the way from Poland, and Lorenzo from Milan, to haul discus all the way to be dis-classified by an ignorant judge...

So much for that.

Have a nice day and I will do everything possible to come to the hopefully even greater show and judging in Cracow in June, and hopefully we have time to talk, about Heckel discus and much, much more. And maybe one of my presentations their should be about Heckel discus... What do you think Barbara?

Always

Heiko

[Göran Ekholm]

If you make a precentation of heckels in crakow i deffenitly will go there!

[Heiko Bleher]

Dear barabara,

first of all: Your Heckel discus now look very nice. And mind you: The judging in lecce was for sure the most ridiculous and unprofessional I have seen in all my live... Since judging discus began in 1986 (by me).Mr. Goebel and Mr Solano (responsable for it and no one else) should be banned from any judging for the rest of their life. It was so stupid, I have no words and all the guests who were there as well. You have S. discus, the real Heckel discus and nothing else. Don't let anyone else tell you anything else.

best regards

Heiko

PS o yes, I am sure your Heckel had stress from the cone, they do not know it ! (Nothing like this excit in their nature, and those are wild fish...). Also: 20 degrees Celcius is murder/killer for Heckel discus.

[Apistomaster]

I placed a classic Discus spawning cone with my Heckels and they acted as if I was crazy and avoided it.
As Heiko said, they have no idea what the heck that thing is and mine seem to regard it as an unwanted intrusion. I took it out after one month. The pairs went back to their favorite pieces of wood they had already chosen as theirs. The cone was scaring the dominant pair away from their favorite station. This caused a domino effect throughout the entire group as the dominant pair reintigrated themselves away from the cone and with the less dominant fish. Heckels seem to have quite complex social structures. The difference between them and other discus is subtle but definite.

[Gajowa]

PS o yes, I am sure your Heckel had stress from the cone, they do not know it ! (Nothing like this excit in their nature, and those are wild fish...). Also: 20 degrees Celcius is murder/killer for Heckel discus.

Heiko, you are talking about the alder cones?
We noticed that also, and we don't put that in the water any more

Barbara

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

yes Barbara I meant cones of any kind which are not natural. (Specially those clay ones often used for tank breed discus...).

Take them out and all the best

Heiko