Sponsorships...The facts!

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,

Recently theres been some issues surrounding sponsors on this forum.. I need to discuss this with all of the membership here in detail. I want to clear the air, state the forums position, and answer any questions you may have.

First lets put this into perspective....we have a policy on this forum where we allow sponsors to sell their livestock, merchandise and services in exchange for a sponsorship fee. This Fee is the primary source of funding for our forum.. This fee is $200 year...or $16 dollars a month...basically the cost of a couple of discus.Its peanuts in the big scheme of things and I mention it to clearly show you that we are not on the side of anyone here... Since we are an information provider here... Consider it an advertising fee much as would be payed to a newspaper, or fish magazine.

Rather than just accept any advertising dollars from any source interested in pedaling their wares here......Sponsors are accepted here only after they have demonstrated to me that they are ethical in their sales and can sell healthy and quality livestock.... If they are members here...I look at their posts, pictures, -itrader etc...in evaluating. If they are not members here...I ask for and look at references. In all cases.. It is clearly explained that should they come on as sponsors. They must maintain a good reputation, sell healthy livestock and quality. They must follow all forum rules as Their sponsorships depend on this...I have removed sponsors in the past, and can do so at my discretion as I see the need based on the public record and my private communications.

I do this because we have tried to foster an environment where members have a pool of sponsors that they can chose from that would give them a good selection, price, quality etc to chose from, primarily because it benefits them to. In a nut shell.. This forum relies on a balence... Sponsors sell good stock and maintain a good reputation, members trust in this relationship and support The sponsors... sponsors support the forum... and members have a forum to go to. I will not let a bad sponsor jeopardize this relationship... I was not born independently wealthy..I and others already give countless hours here.. we can't afford to float the costs of this forum as well. That is a fact all forums eventually need to deal with as they grow.

So How do I know who is a bad sponsor? Am I Psychic? Obviously not. If they break the forum rules..thats a sure bet... but otherwise its on your shoulders not mine... We give you multiple ways to share your experiences with a seller... as a matter of fact we give more ways than just about any other forum out there., and I stand by that.
1) itrader...an ebay type feedback system
2) leave negative feedback in sponsors forums
3) leave your experiences in the livestock review section.
4) lodge a complaint with the forum thru me about a sponsor

All these things can then be used by us to evaluate a sponsor.

I am not going to say, nor have we ever said that we guarantee anything here with regards to your private dealings with a seller... we don't and I don't think it would fair to expect us to.

I honestly think we have a system here that tries to promote the good sponsors and holds accountable the ones that make errors or worse..need to be removed.

I would like to also point out though that not every transaction is going to go smooth....sometimes things just happen.Personalities clash, livestock breaks down and gets sick, or just doesn't grow as expected, sometimes lower quality stock slips thru.... It happens... and it happens to all sellers...anyone that thinks otherwise has no experience with selling fish,. IMO. Does that mean you should accept it and do nothing... absolutely not!...but it does mean both parties should try to resolve the issue., and if necessary use the feedback systems we have in place. Multiple positives and a negative or two may not be stellar but its does give you a fair representation of what to expect... and multiple negatives gives me information I need to know to review a sponsor.

Lastly, we do all we do here for your benefit.. We have tried to give you a pool of good sponsors to buy from...we have given you multiple ways to rate your experiences, and we have demonstrated repeatedly that we do hold sponsors to a set of standards.

For this system to work we have to all do our parts.... I try to maintain board neutrality in individual disputes as I can't know all the discussions and facts that went on between a buyer and seller... but I do look at all the feedback... and we are notified everytime a negative i-trader is posted. I know its not a perfect system we have , but I also think its one of the best systems out there.

So sounds off.. Do you think we have a good system? Is there anything that could be better.. Suggestions.... Have you found that our sponsors are mostly doing their part? Do you have any questions? Should I keep screening and actively removing sponsors? or should I just let any one sell here...with a big notice....Buyers beware!!! ( believe me this would be easiest for me!)


I don't want anyone airing any dirty laundry here in this thread...specific issues should be addressed thru the feedback systems we have here ....( 1) itrader...an ebay type feedback system
2) leave negative feedback in sponsors forums
3) leave your experiences in the livestock review section.
4) lodge a complaint with the forum thru me about a sponsor

Okay ..lets talk.

al

[Kindredspirit]

Do you think we have a good system?

Al, I think it is a great system! And it is relatively new and seems to really take off when there is a thread or neg feedback posted. You are always telling us to utilize it ~

I think issues transpire when others chime in ( I know I was one of them:o ) but, how do you prevent that from happening? We as members have a right to ask questions but only when we are directly involved?

I know it is difficult and I don't envy you and Ryan, I don't, but Sponsors should have just a little higher standards or held to different ones, at best then members. We trust them to do the right thing ~ to make it right ~ and most do, I think!

Should a sponsor be removed based on only one Negative feedback? You can not please everyone all the time ~ I don't know:(

We trust them. I trust you. That is a big word. One that is earned IMO. I think you are one of the most fair individuals I know ~ You listen to both sides and you are fair.

At least with me ~ you always have been.

Just because a sponsor burns someone ~ I would never dream of blaming Simply or you, Al. :)

...because I know you screen them to the best of your ability....

[brewmaster15]

Marie,

[QUOTE] I think issues transpire when others chime in ( I know I was one of them:o ) but, how do you prevent that from happening? We as members have a right to ask questions but only when we are directly involved[/QUOTE?] As members you have the right to ask questions.... but what you don't have the right to do is take sides in a private transaction between a buyer or seller., or post inflammatory remarks...thats when the issues get out of hand.,..and to be frank...we should not have to "prevent" that....problem is most know where the line is to cross and some chose to ignore it...or just try to step lightly over it because they think they can.

If a buyer states their side and seller states their side... Theres nothing stopping anyone from contacting each to ask questions.
additionally the only place we don't really allow " questions" is the livestock review as its designed for first hand experiences.... even there ...a question for pictures or clarification is okay.

I would hope that if a member posts a thread in a sponsors forum that a discussion would occur... if it does..thats a good place to ask questions... but again...not to inflame a situation. unfortunately this does not happen always and I may have to change things again.

We may make an additional forum in the sponsor section...and have that be a sponsor review forum..where only mods and admins can moderate. I hate doing that but I will do what ever I have to to insure this system works.

-al

[dpt8]

Al, Thank you once again for your level headedness. I know uit can be very fustrating at times.. You are the best and this forum teaches us so much.. Thanks Mentor !!

[billeagan]

I can speak from experience that Al run you through a full interview and does check the references. I spent about 2 hours with him on the phone and it was another week or so for him to do his due dilligence before I was allowed in as a sponsor.

[crimson cross]

imho, scrutiny does not work....any new sponsor can be an angel in the beginning, until he/she has a problem, then the problem starts...
We have seen it happenning over the years, history repeats itself.
It's the buyers responsibility to do due deligence. When you buy something, you have to know your seller...so in a nut shell..."buyers beware" should be strongly emphisised. There are no "angel" sellers out there...lol...
Just my two scales worth.
Phil.

[Don Trinko]

It is neccisary for both the buyer and seller to be reasonable. I am 65 years old and I think it's safe to say that there are unreasonable people, both buyers and sellers, that no one can keep happy. ( you can't remove a sponsor or member for one complaint)
I think this is the best discus forum available and the present rules/system is fine with me. Don T.

[Discus-Hans]

Al, you do what you can and that's all you can do, (read it twice, sounded strange lol)

Bill only 2 hours???? Al is checking me out I think for the last 10 years lol.

The live animal business has always bine and will always be a difficult business. We as sponsors/dealers/breeders/sellers do what we can to keep everybody happy, most of the time you win, some times you loose, it's a part of the business were we have to live with (even if we don't want to)

Hans

[alxjss]

Al, u do the best u can. I think w the little time i have been here, the sponsers on this forum r great. Some people have a problem letting other people no whats what and are afraid to post. Someone may say something to another, hence a bad report pops up. Like u say, it should be the persons who r dealing w/things and no one else. When a ? is asked about another seller, sponser, whoever, then it is up to the EXPERIENCED person to say, and noone else.
Its hard to be everywhere. U shouldn't have to. We are all adults here and we should respect everyone else as we want to be respected. I have read the forum rules, seen many times an admin had to keep the subject going when it runs wild, if that is the case then like u say, call someone or write, pm, whatever, just don' t post something u no u shouldn't. Thats what i feel.
thanks for the opp to say my piece. I also feel if a person isn't satisfied, u post ur neg results and the seller must put up w/that. Thats business in a nut shell

[phidelt85]

I don't see anything wrong with the current system. Speaking from experience, things get very complicated and difficult and overall not enjoyable when you try to control everything. It makes things more difficult when you try to micro-manage. I think it should be left as is. We don't live in a place where everything always goes as planned, so bad deals are going to happen. It's up to the individuals involved to resolve it; when you bring that problem to the public as you do in a forum such as Simply, it easy to see how people's pride gets in the way of an amicable resolution.

At the same time, it's hard to be reasonable when you have spent a lot of money on something and feel like you have been taken advantage of. I do believe that sponsors here should be held to a higher level of conduct and should act a professional as possible. It's what keep the members here believing that Simply is a topnotch forum. Sorry to ramble.

[thang45]

Al,

I think the system is very good. You don’t have to change a thing, just leave the system the way it is now.

Also, I have been reading a lot of posts from you and Ryan and I think you guys did an excellent job of handling conflicts. Keep up the good work.

Thang

[Polar_Bear]

imho, scrutiny does not work....any new sponsor can be an angel in the beginning, until he/she has a problem, then the problem starts...
We have seen it happenning over the years, history repeats itself.
It's the buyers responsibility to do due deligence. When you buy something, you have to know your seller...so in a nut shell..."buyers beware" should be strongly emphisised. There are no "angel" sellers out there...lol...
Just my two scales worth.
Phil.

Of all the posts I most agree with Phil on this. The problem too is that oftentimes only one side is heard on this forum and that usually from a dissatified customer. IME if you delve into most negative posts further you come away with a very different reaction than you first had upon reading the post. Personally I say, let whoever is willing to be a sponsor, be a sponsor. If a sponsor continually sends out bad discus they will be found out soon enough in any case. The truth is that I have gotten bad fish from good sponsors, in almost every case the situation was resolved between me and the seller without having to take anything public, IMO that is the way is should be.

[AADiscus]

I am gonna speak from a sponsor's point of view. I think Al does a great job for all the members when he allows someone to be a sponsor. It is not just hand over your money to help the forum. He is looking out for everyone's best interest. We went thru the screening process as well. I think it is great to have that because it is better for the members. They know if they are a sponsor on Simply then they have to have quality fish. At times you can not help what happens between the sellers house and the buyers house. Once that box(s) of fish leave it is in other peoples hands then. After that it is up to the buyer to continue with those fish. (QT, etc.) Sometimes people will jump to conclusions but do not know the full story of everything. If the buyer does not listen to the seller about proper care when they receive them then they sometimes complain about the seller. (I have seen it) However, as a sellers stand point, I think every sponsor tries and at times have gone way above and beyond. That is way you, Al take such great pride in the sponsors. We are not just out to make a little money, help pay costs for raise the fish, we LOVE DISCUS and enjoy the hobby and everyone we deal with.

I think the way you have it set up is great. I think one thing that might be useful is a section for sponsors only. Some place where we can communicate with other sponsors only in reference to buyers or issues we might have. Just a thought.

Andrew and I take pride in being sponsors here! :D It's home.

[William Palumbo]

From a hobbyist standpoint, I feel that no matter what type of system is in place , it will always be buyer beware. I feel that the sponsors should be held to a stricter code of ethics and higher standards. We as members trust the forum...and therefore trust the sponsors who were allowed to sponsor the forum. I feel the most problems occur just after reciept of the fish such as wrong size, deformaties, and wrong strain. Not so much what happens as the hobbysist grows out the fish. We all had fish that just never grew or never turned out right. It happens. But I feel the real problem happens when the buyer opens a styro of Discus, and there are blatant deformaties, no reason to ship Discus with big eyes, pinched heads or beaked faces...there is NO excuse for that. I just don't feel that a sponsor or any other Discus seller should be excused for shipping bad quality Discus the first time, but when confronted ,do right the second time. The quality should be assured on the first shipment of fish...not the second ect. That I have a problem with, though it does not seem to bother most on here. It was said earlier that bad fish get by and make it into shipments. Bad fish only get by when there is bad fish on hand. Bad Discus don't get by, they get "slipped" in. Any honest breeder/broker passionate about the hobby would not have anything less than perfect on hand for sale. Bill

[Elcid]

Hi Al:

You are doing a great job! Last night berfore I went to bed I knew that by the time I woke up you would have cleaned up the feedback section and I was not surprised to see that you did.

Personally I still find it very hard to buy discus on the forum. It's becoming easier but buying discus is still very competitve. I wish you could have an aquabid like system where sponsors could sell fish. I guess you do but sponsors don't use it that much?

You know you gave me some very good advise on how to buy discus a few years ago and I follow it too, see it's working ;)....Maybe you could formalize it and I think it would be of great help to newbies.

Oh and here's my advise for all U newbies, BEFORE YOU BUY FISH OR SEND MONEY TO ANY SPONSOR DISCUS DISCUS DISCUS WITH AL THE BREWMASTER! :)

HTH,
Sandeep

[Fern]

There will be no perfect system ever but if you can show people how to get results without the BS it can work in most cases. For example, a member buys from a sponsor and he/she is not happy for whatever the reason, there should be a way to help the seller and the buyer resolve issues.

There should be a of way of filling a complaint. The buyer should provide evidence pics whatever and a statement and allow the sponsor to reply.

This would open a case where a channel of communications are open and only the seller and buyer can communicate and every other member can follow up without putting their two senses. And of course the ADMINISTRATORS monitor the progress if any.

And there will be times when an issue cannot be resolved, thats when someone with an iron fist should make a recommendation.

I am trying to write something really quick(I am going to the movies to see I AM LEGEND)

Anyway a records of the following would be made available:complaints/ how issues were resolved/ and most type of issues with a sponsors/sellers.

Both the seller and the sponsor would be exposing themselves equally for better or for worst.

And last (I am trying to be fair to all) the Administrator do bare some responsibilities. My understanding is that Sponsors are scrutinized as well and members and so they are responsible too. They have to uphold the entegrity of this forum and I believe they do a excellent job doing so.

But again I do believe there has to be a better way to file a complaint without the drama.

[Ardan]

Ultimately its up to the buyer to research sellers and discus.
Its like ordering anything off the internet, we talk to others, check consumer reports......

Al and Ryan and Paul and Simplydiscus try to provide "some" help in this area, I think and know that Al and Ryan and Paul go "above and beyond" what they have to. I know they go through a lot of work, time and hassle. I don't have that kind of Patience.
They have put a lot of extra work into all of this. I know.
My hat is really off to them.
I do not believe this is a court system.

I do believe that sellers are scrutinized a lot. And yes they bear responsibility for their actions, to solve problems that occur with selling their fish.

It is sad to see this sort of thing that has occurred.

Ardan

[BSW]

We had to close the Breeder Section on a Angelfish forum that I help Moderate. It wasn't a "Sponsor" section, but there is no way forum administrators can be responsible for what people buy or who they buy it from, how it received, shipped, or anything else. Our Breeder Section turned into one argument after another, one defending a breeder/shipper the other blasting them. People looking to place blame on a shipper when, they had left the shipped fish on the front porch all day until they came home from work, etc.... Yeah they were dead. Fish not boxed properly or not the fish advertised for sale, etc... There were also good comments too though but, the whole topic had to be locked up, deleted and discontinued. Sombody was always looking to flame things up.
In no way should a forum or their administrators be responsible for ANYTHING that is sold on a forum wether the seller is a sponsor of that forum or not, the research & responsibility, is solely up to the buyer and seller. And so are any arguments that follow their sale, if any.
I think this is a GREAT forum just the way it is. You guy's go WAY over the top to make it nice here.
B

[tonymaccs]

I unfortunately happened to stumble across the negative feedback thread in all it's glory and thought it disappointing to have degenerated in the way it did. It's good to see it has been trimmed back now.
One of the things I respect about the eBay feedback system is that each party gets one shot at stating their position (and they are limited to a reasonable amount of words so they have to be chosen carefully) and that is the end of it. Anything more serves no positive service.
Speaking of due diligence, I checked out this forum thoroughly before I joined as I am only interested in a group that has high standards of behaviour and respect, which is something a lot of other forums dont have.
Tony

[BSW]

The EBay system sounds like a good and fair one.
I agree on the forum issue of "high standards, behavior & respect."
Oh, and we could put "Good common sense" in there too.
That makes for a very pleasant place to be !!!!
And this forum has those qualities !!
Nice fish - Nice people
B

[alxjss]

I no i posted already on this subject but, i need to say one more thing. I think the admin's here r great. They show NO favoritizm. I wondered if there would be some, but i don't see it and that is what i like about this forum. EVERYONE is equal. If u screw up, no matter who u r, they r here to set u straight. RIGHT ON ADMIN:thumbsup:

[AADiscus]

The sponsors on this board are great. We are not out competing against each other. Trying to get all the business, etc. We are actually helping one another in the back ground which alot don't see. For the most part we all carry different strains and will refer people to other sponsors for certain fish the buyer wants to puchase. We trust each other enough to send someone there way.

[alxjss]

I totally agree angela. I have had nothing but EXCELLENT dealings so far and i got my very first discus from the sponsers here and to tell u the truth, i don't buy fish anywhere except from the sponsers here. Thank u for all ur efforts;) I mean all the sponsers here, not just Angela:o

[Dolphin Dip]

The sponsors on this board are great. We are not out competing against each other. Trying to get all the business, etc. We are actually helping one another in the back ground which alot don't see. For the most part we all carry different strains and will refer people to other sponsors for certain fish the buyer wants to puchase. We trust each other enough to send someone there way.

that's something that definetly jumped out at me. i've pmed a few sponsors and they would send to another sponsor for certain strains. this really impressed me, heck, you guys are even complimenting eachother in the open sponsor section. i have never seen another forum [discus related or otherwise] like this one.

[Elite Aquaria]

Al,

I think that the system that you have set up for feedback is excellent...I remember when I was not a Sponsor I used the feedback to determine who I was going to purchase fish from. I know you are very selective when allowing someone to become a sponsor. I would not change anything, thank you and keep up the great work.

[Apistomaster]

I really like the points Hans made.
The live animal business is a difficult business. Not a particularly profitable one, I might add. Most in it are there because they love the fish but fish die and there will always be difficulties with the fish, the shipping companies, the vendors and the customers. No one wins them all.
As Hans said, "We do the best we can." and as others have said, "Buyers beware."
Using the assets of this forum should be a part of the process.

[back 2 discus biz]

I'm relatively new here and I don't have answers but I do have some observations:


Negative exchanges between buyers and sellers should be kept private and not aired out in a forum. I would suspect that the original poster is looking for support from other people within the forum but anybody not directly related to the transaction does not have the facts and therefore only helps distort the argument. Also, as a newbie here, it turns me off to log in and see this type of exchange. We come here mostly for help and advice.
If there has to be a rating for transactions here the Ebay style of 10 words or less narrative with a truncated Positive, Neutral, Negative rating seems the best way to minimize subjective elaboration.
If you add a "sponsor" to this site you, in my opinion, have defacto endorsed this vendor even if you remind people that you bear no responsibility for the outcome of a transaction. However undeserving, the fact that you check them out prior to giving them sponsor priviliges only adds implied liability on you when something goes wrong. I know Simply has nothing to do with it but it would be human nature for a buyer to be somewhat miffed at the site admin if he/she had a bad experience with a merchant that was on the site's sponsor list. I also know sponsor fees are critical for upkeep of this site which makes things difficult. Begin Soapbox -Everybody that has saved a fish or kept one from getting sick due to info on this site should pony up a donation. That way pressure for sponsor funds would be greatly reduced. -End Soapbox

I will close by saying that I use this forum for great discus keeping and emergency management info. I assume that goes for 90% of us here. The buyer/seller portion of the site seems minimal in comparison and I would hate to see it damage what is so important to most of us.

[B-O-F]

Begin Soapbox -Everybody that has saved a fish or kept one from getting sick due to info on this site should pony up a donation. That way pressure for sponsor funds would be greatly reduced. -End Soapbox


I totally agree with thhis statement but having sponsors on a site like this serves other purposes as well as funding the forum.

In this particular case it does not apply to me as I am not in the US but being a breeder/retailer sponsor on a forum tells me that they actually have some knowledge and interest in the fish they are selling and that in itself would normally make them worth looking at when you want new stock. Your average LFS would not bother to visit a site like this, never mind pay to sponsor it. I know they would look on the sponsor fee as an investment but there is more to it than that.

[brewmaster15]

Thanks to everyone that posted so far...I appreciate you taking the time to share your viewpoints here.. Its interesting to see the different views on the system we use here...but Thats to be expected.. alot of what has been mentioned has been noted in the past as well as this system we use now is the summation of 7 years trial and error... admittedly its not perfect...but Its worked well for the forum...theres always room for improvement which is why I opened this discussion.


I'd still like to hear from more of you on the my original questions but want to talk more about something thats been mentioned a few times... The screening and determining of sponsors.....


My views here...I realize that by actually screening sellers and allowing them to sell here it would be easy to somehow blame the site and its owners when a transaction goes wrong... its something I thought about alot when we decided to institute this system... It can be a headache at times....It would be far easier to let anyone that wants to sell here...do so with out any system in place to screen them..... It would bring massive amounts of revenue to the forum... but theres a cost too that I am not willing to pay....... members become prey... yes the system as it is does not completely insure that the transactions will all go smooth... but it does help far more than no system in place will. There are alot of checks and balences in place....and for the most part they work... If I allowed anyone that wanted to sell here free rein to do so....I think you would see a very negative impact on the site and on novices coming into this hobby... I also think that when things get bad The site and the owners would still get blamed... everyone loves a scape goat or whipping post when something bad happens.. The argument then would be... "well you let them advertise here..so you bear some of the blame." or "since you let them sell here.. you should get involved and mediate any issues." and I would probably hear..." You guys should screen sellers and only let the ethical ones sell here":confused::confused::confused: I know this as fact as its part of this forums history already.

No matter what system we have in place..... it will never be good enough in the cases where something goes wrong. So


So given the two options... I opted to try to minimize the exposure to members and the forum if things go south between buyers and seller.... and to sincerely try to put together a group of sellers that would be ethical in their treatment of members and each other,,.. I firmly believe that we have done just that... and I am not being blind to the flaws in the system and know its not perfect.... I am being swayed by the successes. As for the flaws... WE have systems in place to help minimize these and if need be...we remove a sponsor.

I've also heard opinions that we should not have any sellers at all here...just hobbyists... and if It was financially doable it may be a great idea....but next time you are online here ..watch the numbers of members that look at the sponsor section.. Part of the attraction of a forum is to look at whats being sold, how much it is, and buy it.. remove that and you remove part of the forum experience for many of our members.


Just some things I wanted to mention.. I need to go do a water change now.. more latter.

thanks,
al

[B-O-F]

Al... The system you have here seems fine to me, nobody with any common sense would expect it to be flawless....... but rather than putting a buyer beware note up which would leave bad vibes, just pin this thread into the information forum then everyone will be able to see where you stand on the issue.

[A1 Aquarium World]

Al and Ryan,
I take my hat off to you guys,this is by far the best Discus forum around IMO.I joined this forum because i am a hobbyist and then became a sponsor down the track,I personally am not here to take anyone else's bussiness or sell bad fish.I don't think simply can be held responsible or should be for any tranactions between sponsors and buyers,I alway's try to send the best fish i have at the time as i say to people i will not send fish that i would not have in my tanks.We are only as good as the people we import off(unless we breed them) It is hard because not every fish i get sent i can sell at home now i have 3 tanks of crap that was sent to me,I will not send them out to anyone so i lost on them,When making a purchase be it fish or anything you buy,you should do your homework and not expect others to do it for you,I hate seeing thing's between sponsor's and sellers go that bad it turn's into a slinging match,I hate negativity and will never take part in it it serves no point.I can only say for myself i'm here first and foremost as a hobbyist and if i can help someone with some good quality Discus i will.I find most of the sponsors here are very nice and helpfull people,after all it should be about promoting this wonderful hobby !Think where we would be without this awesome site !



cheers

[Elite Aquaria]

Darren,

Very well said...I am with you 100%