PDA

View Full Version : GROWING DISCUS WITH MINIMAL WC?



ionas.simion.damian
01-13-2008, 08:49 AM
I JUST STARTED AND I M DOING LIKE 5% EVERY 3 OR 4 DAYS . IF MY WATER IS OK DO I STILL NEED TO DO WC?
I THINK DISCUS IS JUST A MYTH. HAVE ONE FRIEND KEPT HIS JUVENILES (2" AT 70 TEMP AND ANOTHER DOING WC ONCE A MONTH (TANK WAS PLANTED. I M NOT TRYING TO BREED THEM JUST TO HAVE SOME HEALTY FISH. U THINK IS POSSIBLE?

BSW
01-13-2008, 08:58 AM
I do 50% every other day on a 60 gal planted. (which might be a little overkill)
I do not use RO water.
PH 7.6
TDS 200 ppm
Planted tank

I am fairly new to Discus too. And have chosen to follow the recommendations of experienced hobbyists here at Simply. The fish may could make it longer. But the fish respond so nicely at WC time, it must be doing something really good for them. So I will stay with that.
I think you might be at risk for health issues and stress, by not doing enough water changes. I wouldn't want to risk my fish, it's just to easy to do the required WC's.
And WOW at a 70 F temp, truthfully, I'm surprised his fish are still alive !
B

GrillMaster
01-13-2008, 10:03 AM
I JUST STARTED AND I M DOING LIKE 5% EVERY 3 OR 4 DAYS . IF MY WATER IS OK DO I STILL NEED TO DO WC?
I THINK DISCUS IS JUST A MYTH. HAVE ONE FRIEND KEPT HIS JUVENILES (2" AT 70 TEMP AND ANOTHER DOING WC ONCE A MONTH (TANK WAS PLANTED. I M NOT TRYING TO BREED THEM JUST TO HAVE SOME HEALTY FISH. U THINK IS POSSIBLE?

If your water is ok after doing a 5% WC every 3 or 4 days, your not feeding your fish nearly enough especially if they are juvies! 4-5 times a day so they can grow is the norm.

Your friend that keeps his 2" juvies in 70 degree water probably hasn't had them very long, an probably wont have them very much longer! Discus require warm water minimum of 82 degrees. 84 is better.

If you are looking to keep healthy discus, infrequent water changes and low temps is not the way to do it!

If you research the forum you will find everything you need to know to have healthy discus...

tc
Mark

Don Trinko
01-13-2008, 02:24 PM
Even with a low bioload you should do a WC of 20% minimum once a week.( by low bioload I mean 4 or 5 adults in a 75g Bare bottom tank being fed twice a day) More typical is 30 to 50 % 2 to 7 times a week. There is a difference between keeping fish alive for a few months and keeping them healthy for 8 to 10 years.
70 degrees is asking for big trouble. Don T.

Greg Richardson
01-13-2008, 06:57 PM
If you think it's a myth go to the sick section and look at the common theme of why they are there.

If they are honest and most are, time after time the wc schedule comes to light.

And your friend? 70 degrees?
He will soon have some expensive fertilizer on his hands.

Breeding has nothing at all to do with not finding your fish sick.

Seecher
01-13-2008, 07:20 PM
I JUST STARTED AND I M
DOING LIKE 5% EVERY 3 OR 4 DAYS . IF MY WATER IS OK DO I STILL NEED TO DO WC?
I THINK DISCUS IS JUST A MYTH. HAVE ONE FRIEND KEPT HIS
JUVENILES (2" AT 70 TEMP AND ANOTHER DOING WC ONCE A
MONTH (TANK WAS PLANTED. I M NOT TRYING TO BREED THEM
JUST TO HAVE SOME HEALTY FISH. U THINK IS POSSIBLE?



I JUST STARTED AND I M DOING LIKE 5% EVERY 3 OR 4 DAYS .

If this 5% "water change" is the replacement of water after you
have cleaned (vacuumed) the tank, I think you're doing a great job

IF MY WATER IS OK DO I STILL NEED TO DO WC?

Have you measured the water parameters of the tank? Do you
have a test kit of some time? Do you know how to interpret the
results of your water tests? Is your ammonium at zero parts per
million? Is your nitrite at zero parts per million? With juvenile
discus is your nitrate level in 20 parts per million or less?

I THINK DISCUS IS JUST A MYTH. HAVE ONE FRIEND KEPT HIS
JUVENILES (2" AT 70 TEMP AND ANOTHER DOING WC ONCE A
MONTH

There is no no myth about water temperature for discus, your
discus will become ill and eventually die at 70 temperature.
The healthiest water temperature is considered to be 83 to 90.
Water changes should be based, for the most part, on nitrate
levels prior to the water change.

(TANK WAS PLANTED. I M NOT TRYING TO BREED THEM JUST
TO HAVE SOME HEALTY FISH. U THINK IS POSSIBLE?

You need to do research on aquatic plants that can live at the
same high temperatures that discus can live under, this can be
a challenge. The planted tank forum has a bunch of really skilled
bunch of planted aquarium hobbyists who utilize "high tech" and
" low-tech" techniques.

Don't overfeed your fish they all eventually get to be the same
size, whether you feed rationally or waste food and pollute your
tank using the "feedlot" method.

Good luck with your project.

phidelt85
01-13-2008, 08:13 PM
Hey Seecher, we still haven't seen pics of your discus. Oh wait.... you're camera still broken, huh?

How are you gonna tell the guy that it's great that he's only doing 5% WC once a week. No it's not ok. What's worse is you didn't even bother to ask what his water parameters were.

I am in agreement that your friend really needs to bring his water temp up. 82* is the bare minimus, and as has already been stated 84-86* being optimal. How often are you feeding your discus and what are you feeding them?

You will find that a vast majority of the folks here are going to advocate more frequent water changes especially in regards to juvenile discus. They really do thrive in cleaner water. Take it from me who started with very good quality stock in a planted tank doing at the most 20-50% twice a week. I eventually watched my juvies wither and had to be put down. It also caused one of my fish to become stunted. It's a beautiful fish minus the fact that it's eyes take up about half its face and will never reach it's best potential.

rick.c
01-13-2008, 09:10 PM
all i can say is your freind is in for a rudd awakeing, i dont even keep my angels in water that cold,wc for juves sould be a lot more often if you are feeding them right,i do 50% every other day on all my tankes and feed juves 5-6 times a day good luck
rick

Greg Richardson
01-13-2008, 11:47 PM
The healthiest water temperature is considered to be 83 to 90.

Keep them at 88 to 90 and see how many years they last.

Have you ever had a BB tank?
See how much they poop in a day?

Would you like to live in a .....
key words here coming up...
closed environment like that?

Even if it is vacuumed with 5% wc think about the rest of the water in there.

If you want this hobby to grow giving out advice that will put people posting in the sick section in no time is going to only discourage them to quit.

I really get tired of seeing it.

If I want to see that I can go to 95% of the LFS in Washington State here and see fish that are good enough for fertilizer not some newbies tank.

Greg Richardson
01-13-2008, 11:55 PM
Don't overfeed your fish they all eventually get to be the same
size, whether you feed rationally or waste food and pollute your
tank using the "feedlot" method.


They do?
Are these guppies or discus you are talking about?

WC's, amount fed, type of food fed, when fed, all has to do with what size they will eventually be.

tonymaccs
01-14-2008, 01:09 AM
I JUST STARTED AND I M DOING LIKE 5% EVERY 3 OR 4 DAYS . IF MY WATER IS OK DO I STILL NEED TO DO WC?

Why dont you tell us how you would tell if your water is ok?



I THINK DISCUS IS JUST A MYTH. HAVE ONE FRIEND KEPT HIS JUVENILES (2" AT 70 TEMP AND ANOTHER DOING WC ONCE A MONTH (TANK WAS PLANTED.

Thank you for telling us about the myth about your friend. I agree- that's a myth. Was his name Seecher?



I M NOT TRYING TO BREED THEM JUST TO HAVE SOME HEALTY FISH. U THINK IS POSSIBLE?

I sincerely doubt it.

White Worm
01-14-2008, 02:22 AM
Lol, Listen to common sense here. Most tropical fish are kept in warmer water than 70. Dont listen to the broken record bad advice we here call "Seecher". He is a couple of steps behind reality when it comes to discus and thats why he cant show us examples of his "topped off" healthy discus. Still waiting for those pics.....:shocked2:
You really need many hours (more like weeks) spent reading the beginners section. Do some research because you are asking some basic questions that have been answered many times. Dont listen to your friend, he has no idea what he is doing with discus and I wouldnt be surprised to see him show up soon with his sick fish asking............why? :confused:

Darren's Discus
01-14-2008, 02:25 AM
Discus are like any hobby,you only get out of it what you put into it,As Greg said checkout the disease section most problem's people come across with discus are due to poor water quality !! All the best with your Discus.



cheers

majik
01-14-2008, 03:11 AM
hi there im fairly new to discus but have had other fish forever.
Before i got my fish i read everything i could find on them,in doing so i found this wonderfull site simply discus.
I think that when you make the decision to keep discus you commit yourself to meet the requirements of there care,same as if you have a dog you commit yourself to walk it twice a day etc.
If you miss a day the dog wont die but you shouldnt get a dog with the intention of not walking it.It is the same with discus please take advice offerd in this forum as in total there must be hundreds of years discus experience and with good advice you will have something to really be proud of.
I love doing w/c it enables me to interact with my fish and i enjoy doing what i know to be good for them:)

Seecher
01-14-2008, 04:57 AM
tonymaccs wrote:
Thank you for telling us about the myth about your friend. I agree- that's a myth. Was his name Seecher?

seecher writes:
What are you talking about? I never said anything like that ... EVER.

More flaming, inexcusable.

brewmaster15
01-14-2008, 09:28 AM
Lets keep it civil everyone...

thank you.


-al


ps...My experiences on this subject...I feed lots and I change lots of water...My goal...I want nice...big...healthy fish and it works well for me.....and the method works well for many others... it is not the only way to keep them...but I feel it is the best way to meet my goals....

I am not attacking Seecher... but I do disagree with him strongly...and stand by that.

If you want to succeed with Discus...model your methods after those who have succeeded..then back step to find what works for you personally....

Best of luck,
al

poconogal
01-14-2008, 10:17 AM
Lets keep it civil everyone...

thank you.


-al


ps...My experiences on this subject...I feed lots and I change lots of water...My goal...I want nice...big...healthy fish and it works well for me.....and the method works well for many others... it is not the only way to keep them...but I feel it is the best way to meet my goals....

I am not attacking Seecher... but I do disagree with him strongly...and stand by that.

If you want to succeed with Discus...model your methods after those who have succeeded..then back step to find what works for you personally....

Best of luck,
al
Well said, Al.

Don Trinko
01-14-2008, 10:55 AM
This is an excelent web site. Read alot before you buy.
I am not a "90% WC" person but I am sure that if your water is OK it would work fine. I am also not a "10% WC a month" person. When I was 21 I knew everything.... now I'm not so sure. Below is what I know fore sure:

1. 70 degrees will result in sick or dead discus sooner or latter, probably sooner...

2. Significant WC is REQUIRED for healthy Discus.


Don T.

ionas.simion.damian
01-14-2008, 12:08 PM
OK I HAVE 3 5 INCH DISCUS 6 TETRA 3 BRISTLENOSE 2 CLOVN PLECO 1 CORY
FEED THEM BEFF HART FROZEN BLOOD WORMS BRINE SHRIMP AND FLAKES
I USE THE TESTS WITH DROPS NOT STRIPS AND NITRITE AMONIA AND NITRATE ARE 0
THIS IS MY MAIN QUESTION : IF WATER IS OK WHY CHANGE?

ionas.simion.damian
01-14-2008, 12:14 PM
I HAD ANGELS AND RAINBOWS BEFORE AND BREED THEM SUCCESFULLY AND I WAS DOING 10% WC EVERY 2 WEEKS

ionas.simion.damian
01-14-2008, 12:20 PM
WHEN I LL BE 50 AND RETIRE I LL DO 50 WC EVERY DAY . NOW I JUST DON T HAVE THE TIME . I HAD FISH FOR 3 YEARS . AND NO DEAD FISHES

BSW
01-14-2008, 12:20 PM
Everyone has different methods and that is understandable. However a 70 F temp isn't satisfactory for Discus. I raise Angelfish too. And they are much more tolerant of water conditions.
I believe the water changes are necessary even when your peramiters are good because of TDS (total dissolved solids) and DOC (Dissolved organic compounds) Discus eat a lot, and the water needs to be cleaned and renewed. They do well this way.
Best of luck with your new fish, and I hope you will post some pics for us -

Mick B
01-14-2008, 12:24 PM
OK I HAVE 3 5 INCH DISCUS 6 TETRA 3 BRISTLENOSE 2 CLOVN PLECO 1 CORY
FEED THEM BEFF HART FROZEN BLOOD WORMS BRINE SHRIMP AND FLAKES
I USE THE TESTS WITH DROPS NOT STRIPS AND NITRITE AMONIA AND NITRATE ARE 0
THIS IS MY MAIN QUESTION : IF WATER IS OK WHY CHANGE?

Hi:)

1st thing, block capitals is SHOUTING! so pls use lower case!:angel:

Unfortunatly, there is no right or wrong, but there is proven and un-proven, so;

I (We) cannot advise if your water is OK, the basic tests you can do, do not tell the whole story.

General experience, dictates that water can/will become contaminated with dissolved organic substances and it seems Discus are far more effected than other more general tropical fish.

There have been discussions, to try the reduced W/C routine, including Ozone and nitrate filters etc etc etc, but;

Practically, most have found, dependant upon tank-size, fish load, feeding and maintenance routines, W/C need to be significantly more for Discus than a comparable load of trops!

So, at the end of the day, "You" are the one to make that call, if you believe it will work, try it, prove it and then enlighten us all!
(I could do with reducing the volume of water, I pay to heat!).

Cheers, Mick B:angel:

rick.c
01-14-2008, 12:28 PM
discus are not angels or rainbows!!! I tryed the only change once a month method and the fish did fine for a while then the tank crashed ph went way down fish got sick i allmost lost a years worth of work on these fish . discus need clean fresh water and frequint wc is the way to give it to them ,i heard or read some where that discus deplete the minarals out of the water, so water seems fine no ammona .nitritesor nitrates but minarals are gone=fish get sick tank crashes best i can exsplain it ,I just know that not doing wc offtin dont work. rick

ionas.simion.damian
01-14-2008, 12:46 PM
but is head ache . i live in an apartament where am i supposed to store the water and after that heat the water? in the summeris ok but in the winter.... is there any device that u can hook on hose to heat and to make the water safe? what will happend to the plants with so much wc ? all the ferts will become money in the drain.


this is not a hoby . is an adiction. need to go to rehab.

DiscusOnly
01-14-2008, 12:54 PM
I think GROWING and WC needs to be in the same sentence. There is no doubt in my mind that one may be able to get away with less than optimal water condition for Discus and still have it swim around in your tank. You may even feel that they are perfectly happy and healthy but you are dealing with Discus enthusiast here who are trying to give their Discus the best chance to grow big.

You may not feel that there is a difference because you are not starting out with Discus with potential. Your original post is a question so it means that you are looking for those with experiences in growing out Discus for THEIR EXPERIENCES. If you don't agree, I suggest that you start out with some quaility home grown juvies discus and try to grow them out with those conditions. Let us know what happens 6 months later. I would feel really bad for those Discus under those conditions but who knows, you may prove everyone wrong.

I recently acquired some 2.5" discus and let me tell you at with the increase feeding and daily WC, they are growing at an incredible rate. This is what I've read about and got me interested in trying to grow them out. I have another tank tank of Discus that get WC every 3 days and over the past 12 months, they did not grow like the ones I have now. I don't think the discus were that good to begin with.

So there are many levels in any hobby and there are so many different variations and I am still learning them. It's going to work a little different for everyone and part of the fun is learning and figuring it out.

Mick B
01-14-2008, 12:59 PM
but is head ache . i live in an apartament where am i supposed to store the water and after that heat the water? in the summeris ok but in the winter.... is there any device that u can hook on hose to heat and to make the water safe? what will happend to the plants with so much wc ? all the ferts will become money in the drain.


this is not a hoby . is an adiction. need to go to rehab.

Check out automated water-changes and drilled tanks.
Also, with plants, daily added ferts is common, to off-set high vol WC.

Cheers, Mick B

Nobody said it was easy:D

Don Trinko
01-14-2008, 01:11 PM
Two things:
1.If your amonia=0,nitrites=0 and nitrates=0 something is goofy: normaly you will have some nitrates, even if you have plants.

2. If you are not prepaired to do at least 2 or 3 WC per week don't buy juvie discus. I have Angels, Tiger barbs etc. They will do fairly good with little WC. Discus will not. If you get adult discus and have less than 1 fish per 10g of water you might get away with 1 20 to 30% WC a week.
Don T.

guille2007
01-14-2008, 03:14 PM
What I have heard from expert breeders is that the minimal accepted WC is 60% per week, a diferent thing like monthly WC would require a special procedure with ciclying and filtration, de-nitrate the water, more than a 10g water/fish, soft water, ph below 6.0, trace adding and a constant ph adjusting, so you almost would have to recreate amazon conditions in your tank.

tonymaccs
01-14-2008, 03:26 PM
Was his name Seecher?

seecher writes:
What are you talking about? I never said anything like that ... EVER.

More flaming, inexcusable.

Seecher,
It wasn't flaming and it was hardly inexcusable. The link to you was the water changing bit and it was mostly a genuine question and only a little toungue in cheek.
Whenever someone posts regarding water changes you are often one of the first to respond with your idealisic and contrary view. That's fine in itself, and I (as well as plenty of others) have given you further invitation in other posts to support your views in the usual ways expected when such alternative views are postulated, ie with references or quotes to credible sources. If you missed those invitations I'd be happy to find them for you.
It's become clear you step around those more probing questions, but continue on using provocative language like "draconian" and accusing other members of being cruel and environmentally irresponsible. And now you're offended?
regards
Tony

Seecher
01-14-2008, 05:54 PM
Tony, so that there is no misunderstanding over what you said in to let you know that I understood it, I will answer your post within context.

Tony wrote:
> Seecher,
> It wasn't flaming and it was hardly inexcusable.

... Secher wrote:
... Whenever you involve another person's name negatively and without the use of "smilies" its generally considered an attack within Internet protocol.

Tony wrote:
> The link to you was the water changing bit and it was mostly a genuine question and only a little toungue in cheek.

Secher wrote:
... If you have a genuine question about my particular point in view, please ask. I'm perfectly willing to explain to you or anybody, as best I can rational and reasonable conclusions I reached. I only ask it be a friendly conversation and not confrontational. Tongue-in-cheek comments are usually followed with the appropriate "smiley".

Tony wrote:
> Whenever someone posts regarding water changes you are often one of the first to respond with your idealisic and contrary view. That's fine in itself, and I (as well as plenty of others) have given you further invitation in other posts to support your views in the usual ways expected when such alternative views are postulated, ie with references or quotes to credible sources.

Secher wrote:
... Fair enough. My views are based on science, and much of what we know about water quality within the tropical fish hobby. I support my views with water quality testing. I ask innumerable times for scientific evidence that "regular" huge water changes are necessary. No one has has come forward with peer-reviewed studies supporting their contention, that is, something like, " 50% water change three days a week is the best water change system for keeping healthy discus".

Tony wrote:
> If you missed those invitations I'd be happy to find them for you.

Secher wrote:
... My entire position is based on science of water quality. I ask those in disagreement to back up their contention with science. It's as simple as that.

Tony wrote:
> It's become clear you step around those more probing questions,

Secher wrote:
... Take a look at some of those "probing questions"

... Several folks have posted that fish give of hormones that prevents growth. This is blatantly false. Some fish such as bluegill and other Sunfish to give off hormones to control spawning. This is a population control in overcrowded environments. There is absolutely no information than I found in my research claiming that hormones prevent fish growth. I've ask them to back up their statements and not have been forthcoming.

... Many people have said their other water quality issues necessitating huge regular water changing. I have ask them to state what those other issues were, they claimed rotting food and fish excrement both of which can easily be measured with water tests and both will result in increased nitrate levels. I have always presume that people started out with high-quality water and replace water in the tanks with water of equally high-quality

... Bottom line of my contention is that water changes need to be done when the water needs to be changed. Discussion is " when does it need to be changed?" I claim that water quality testing will answer that question for the beginner.

Tony wrote:
> but continue on using provocative language like "draconian" and accusing other members of being cruel and environmentally irresponsible.

Secher responds:
... Cruel is a matter of opinion. Here is a comment about wagyu beef (Kobe) as raised in Japan" They are not allowed to exercise, to prevent the build-up of muscle, which makes the meat tougher." They are also feed beer and other alcohol. Japanese do not think that they are being cruel, what do you think?
... Feedlot operations in California have cattle knee deep in their own urine and feces while they are the gorge to make them ready for market.
... Water tables are getting lower and lower to where water rationing will become standard operating procedure in the near future.

... I think keeping discus in bare bottom, naked, desert tank is cruel and unusual punishment, I just ask that people to think about it before they do it. It may save them time that but is that the way we should treat our pets?

... Have I made myself clear or dodged any questions? Please let me know.

GrillMaster
01-14-2008, 06:20 PM
Everyone has their opinions...There is no reason to voice disagreements in someone else's thread! You can start your who's right or wrong thread somewhere else.

Most people that come to this forum for the first time are greeted with enthusiasm and members are more than happy to lend out useful and helpful information.

Anyones replies should be absorbed an taken for what its worth and a little research from new members will reveal who in fact is right or wrong.

This is no way to say hello to a new member joining the forum!!

Please take the arguments elsewhere! :)

tc
Mark

ionas.simion.damian
01-14-2008, 07:36 PM
THX

brewmaster15
01-14-2008, 07:44 PM
Mark,
Your hired!:)

-al

GrillMaster
01-14-2008, 07:47 PM
Mark,
Your hired!:)

-al

LOL...Be an honor to be part of the team!! :D

tc
mark

reelay0
01-14-2008, 08:03 PM
hehehe:)

ionas.simion.damian
01-14-2008, 08:28 PM
if they have so much time to argue on this forum i bet they have time to do the wc also:argue:

brewmaster15
01-14-2008, 08:57 PM
Okay... I think thats enough...This isn't going anywhere.. I didn't want to close this,,but I think its best....

Ionas... drop me a pm if you want help and I'll be happy to help you out based on my experiences... read up on what others do, try a few things and hopefully you'll find what works for you..

-al