New to discus...seeking some advice

[fxie]

Hi everyone,

I've been on these forums (on and off) for a while, but I have never made a post because...well, I've never had discus! However, that may soon change, as a local breeder has a batch of ~3 months old juveniles for sale.

First, a little background. I am an avid aquaria hobbyist, and I do browse several other forums, but I have always been a huge fan of discus and have always wanted to raise them. Currently, I am trying to keep things simple (relatively speaking) with a 30gal and 135gal community tank. The 30 gal currently contains a spawning pair of angelfish, and the 135 has 11 congo tetras, another pair of spawning angels, 3 SAEs, some otos, and cories. The 135 is a moderately planted tank (more plants are on the way!), with 216w of T5 lighting (unfortunately no CO2), and filtered by a Fluval FX5. The tank has a current temperature of 85 degrees, and a pH of 6.4.

Now, on to the questions.

A local breeder has a batch of pigeonblood discus for sale for $15 each. They are currently 2-2.5" in length, and are fed on a diet of white worms, blood worms, and beef heart. I understand that it may be better for me, as this is my first time raising discus, to purchase larger discus. Unfortunately, prices being what they are locally, I'm looking at $70+ for a 4"+ discus...and it is very hard to find ones that are in good condition. At $15 each, it is a difficult offer to pass up. As I do have a good deal of non-discus experience, would it be OK to start of with 2.5" juveniles?

Also, would 30% water changes 2x a week be sufficient? Given the size of the tank, it would be quite the effort performing 50% water changes everyday. I understand I would need to feed the juveniles quite often, but I'm confident any uneaten food will be picked up by the other fish in the tank fairly quickly.

I have included some pictures of the the 135, as well as pictures of the juveniles and their parents.

How do the juveniles look? Healthy?

[Elite Aquaria]

First of all welcome to Simply...Although I am not a big fan of planted tanks for growing up fry that is one nice looking tank...The reason why BB tanks are better is because in order to grow out your fish to the max potential you need to feed 5-6 per day for up to the first 6 - 8 months of a fish's life. This will produce a lot of waste from your discus and it will be difficult to clean in a planted tank. Depending on the amount of fish you get for the 130 will determine the amount of water change...the key is water quality not amount or percentages of water change per day...when my tanks were heavily stocked with 2 sponge filters I changed 50-75% every day and sometimes 2x per day...now that I have a central system I can change my water 3 x per week with no issues..:D

Juvies look good...and yes you can start with the 2.5 juvies...Good luck

[two utes]

Hi there fxie. Welcome to Simply Discus. That's a fine looking planted tank you have set up there mate. Discus are going to look fantastic in it. In my opinion though l would not put juvinilles in it, for reasons explained above.
If it was me, l would set up a bare bottom tank to raise those juvinilles you mentioned in. In a few months with reagular water changes and plenty of feed they will get to the 4 inch mark, and you will get lots of satisfaction watching them grow...as l have. You can then transfer them across to that beautiful planted tank you have.
Check out the Discus challenge section in this forum and take a look for yourself.
One thing for sure is that you will get lots of good advise here.

Good luck with your new discus.:)

[judy]

However, to play devil's advocate, as I often do here, you have a sand substrate, which is almost as easy to keep clean as a BB tank. If you vac your entire substrate lightly every other day at a minimum, daily ideally, (i.e. wave the siphon over it to pick up loose particles, no need to go digging in it and suck up sand), replacing the water you've suctioned out, if you have way more biofiltration in your tank than you need (I'd add a nice big HOB filter, even two, on the back) and do 30% change at least twice weekly in addition to the small changes that will result from the sand vac , I think you'd be just fine. My little guys have tripled in size in two months in my planted tank. And those juvies look very healthy. In a 135, you have room for at least a dozen.
You might want to invest in one of those pump-powered siphons that use a hose to empty the water into your sink, then attach the hose to the tap and refill. Much easier than buckets. Just remember to add primte directly to the tank right before you refill...

[fxie]

Thanks for the compliments and advice everyone :) The tank is still a work in progress, and if I was to get discus, I will have to make a few changes to the landscape to make it a little more accommodating ;)

Yes, I agree a BB tank would be the best option for raising the juveniles, but I unfortunately dont have another tank larger enough (or the space) to fit them all haha. As judy mentioned, I do have a sand substrate, and it is quite easy to siphon out any uneaten food and detritus. Also, I have a 50' Python...and wow, I have to say, its a life saver! Two hour water changes are now cut down to 30min!

In terms of filtration, the FX5 is so far doing a great job keeping up water quality. I had 3 pairs of angelfish in the tank before, but they spawned so frequently that I had to sell 2 pairs (no room to set up breeder tanks, and no room to raise the fry). I do have a couple of Aquaclear HOB filters that I can strap on to the back of the 135.

I hope I'm not being unreasonable, and listening to only what I want to hear lol. I've always wanted discus, and this opportunity is very hard to pass up. However, if the fish would not be happy and would not obtain their full potential in the planted tank, then I would definitely prefer to have them go to someone else who can provide the ideal environment.

[judy]

It sounds to me like you're well-equipped to handle raise-outs in that tank. I know it's considered heresy by many, especially the serious breeders on the forum, but I remain convinced that a properly-maintained palnted tank is a perfectly fine environment to successfully raie out discus. You just have to be prepared to do the water work, and since you have a couple extra Aquaclears AND a Python, I'd say you're aced!
Go buy them babies!

[Don Trinko]

Young didcus can be raised in a planted tank but you do need to keep up with the wc and cleaning the bottom. With sand you will be able to see the crud on the bottom. I have gravel and fake plants. You can not see the crud as easy so there is a temptation to think it doesnt need vacumning but it does! I vacumn at every wc.
I don't do as much wc as some. I try to keep my nitrates at 5 or less. for me that is 2 40% wc per week. Alot of the wc depends on the bioload. ( # of fish, how much you feed them) I feed 4 times a day. Most of my discus are 5 to 6". I have had them less than a year and they were 2 to 21/2" when I got them. If I fed more often I would probable have to do more wc and they might be bigger.
Don T.

[fxie]

My current fist stock in the tank consist of 11 juvenile congo tetras ~2" in length, 2 German Blue Rams, 1 pair of marble angelfish, 3 SAEs, and a varying number of otos and cories. Given it is a 135gal tank, I don't think the bioload is too much at the moment, but with the addition of 6 or more juvenile discus, water quality will be a priority and water changes be made religiously. Would adding 6 (or even 10) juvenile discus be too much? The tank is moderately planted at the moment, and the floating water lettuce is a great sponge for sucking up nitrates.

Here is my current list of flora:

- 20 Anubias barteri "nana"
- 4 Anubias barteri "coffeefolia"
- 13 Vallisneria gigantea
- 40 Cryptocoryne wendtii "brown" (I just recently moved some of these around, so a few leaves are melting, and the plants look quite messy)
- A few fairly large clumps of java fern
- Hundreds and hundres of Pistia stratiotes (water lettuce)

All of these plants require only moderate amounts of lighting, and there is plenty of shady areas for the discus to hide and seek refuge if needed.

[judy]

The val and water lettuce will be helpful in absorbing a little excess nutrient-- as any plants are, but these ones (espy the water lettuce as you clearly know) uptake more than your average plant.
I think ten juvies would be a good number. You're clearly a capable and experienced fishkeeper.
One suggestion: some have found otos like to suck on discus mucus and can damage the fish that way. How would you feel about replading them with BN plecos, which do a great job and lagae but don't bother plants (except IME though not that of some others, Amazon swords)?
Bear in mind the QT period: where will you keep 'em during that time?

[fxie]

Yes, I have heard it is quite common to see otos attach themselves to discus. I only have 3 at the moment, but I agree I will have to be quite vigilant in looking out for any bad behavior on their part. I have not had much algae in the tank for a few months now, so I think I can actually do without any kind of algae eating fish. If the otos become a problem, I will move them out to the 30 gal. There is also a fairly large population of trumpet, pond, and ramhorn snails in the tank, as well as some RCS, so they help with mitigating algae growth. As I also have a sand substrate, the MTS are great at keeping the sand loose and filtering out any potential gas pockets, as well as helping the crypts and vals grow their root systems.

I have had some Amazon swords before, but I found with my tank depth and amount of lighting (I am only running 4x54w T5s, which are placed ~12" above the water surface), the Amazon swords tend to grow very close to the ground. I did have a very large, 24"+ sword that reached the surface, but it was decimated by my goldfish (had to place them in the 135 temporarily), and has never recovered since. I have since given it to a friend who has a VERY high tech setup (ie, computers, automated top off, pressurized CO2, enough lighting to light half the neighborhood, etc) in hopes that it will rebound.

As for QT period...hmmm, good question!

I don't have any other empty tanks, nor the space to make additions. Would it be a bad idea to add them directly to the 135? Although it may sound harsh, I'm not overly concerned about losing any of my current stock (except for my angels, its very hard finding a pair that still retains their parental instincts). All the replies in regards to the juvenile discus have indicated them to be in good health, and of course I will inspect them for any signs of illness, so I assume it will be safe to add them directly? I won't be adding any other fish after I have the discus of course, especially since I dont have a QT tank, and I would be much to paranoid of disease or any other pathogens.

[judy]

It's always a gamble adding even apparently healthy stock to an apparently healthy tank.
The juvies you are considering: are they from a reputable breeder? Have they been through preventive courses of Prazi and metro? They look healthy, as do the parents, and the tanks they're in appear spotless, which is good. If all is guaranteed good at that end, the concern then becomes your 135: are all in it definitely healthy? If you can ensure your water parameters are slowly adjusted prior to the discus entry to match their own existing H20 conditions closely, you'd be less likely to stress them into any problems. And a slightly higher temp to start out with would rev their immune systems a bit, which could also help.
But any problem your existing fish may have and may have adjusted to, could just jump to the new discus...
Having given you all these rationalizations, we both know no QT is always dicey. You may be lucky, you may not.
Though we really shouldn't encourage you to skip QT...
you have a 30 gallon. Can you use that? Maybe put the angels in the main tank for awhile?

[fxie]

Hmm, I have never heard of Prazi and metro? What is that? I will have to double check with the breeder and make sure.

As for the water quality in the 135, I can guarantee it is optimal. Irregardless, I will make sure everything is perfect in the 135 before I add them in. I would use the 30 gal, but I cannot move its current inhabitants. It is currently holding goldfish (long story), and is acting as a temporary home for a few days for the angelfish until we sell them to a local breeder. If I somehow was able to obtain a QT, would I not have the same concerns when I add them to my 135 from the QT?

[judy]

well, yeah, except that you would know in the QT tank if the discus had any problems. then what people usually do is take a fish from the regular tank and put in into the QT to see if the main tank fish have any problems, or if the discus have any problems they;re gonna give to the main tank fish.
But the way I figure it, if the discus are absolutely clean, and if the main tank fish have any problems, they'll have to deal with those problems in any case.
Prazi is Prazipro, a formualtino of praziquantel that rids fish of some parasites including tapeworms. Metro is metrodazinole, which deals with other parasites like gill flukes. Between them, they cover off most major parasitical problems. Some breeders and some good retailers will routinely treat their incoming fish with both, to ensure they're clean when sold. My guy does. I love him for it. All my discus came from him and all are sooooo healthy (except for a couple of problems that were my fault-- no QT and my previosu longtime resident angelfish DID have some sort of worm that didn't bother them none, but did bother the discus.
Then it turned out when the betta died, he had some bacterial infection that a couple of the dicus picked up. Maracyn Plus handled it nicely.

[fxie]

Ahhh, I see! Thanks for the info judy, I will ask my breeder if he applies these treatments to the discus. Would you suggest applying some of these medicines to the 135, just in case there are any fish that may be carrying any parasites?

[judy]

If you do decide to put the discus directly into the big tank, what I would do is have both meds on hand, and watch the fish very carefully for signs of problems-- unusual feces, mostly, for worms of any sort, and flashing, darting, rubbing for gill flukes.
They're good to have on hand anyway just in case. The metro is available in tablet form, but is more effective applied via medicated food, and there are commercially prepared such foods available-- usually flake, I think, but I have a Jungle Pond pellet product that works (except the pellets are too big and they float, so when it became necessry to medicate, I crushed them and moistened them, and pressed them so they became more dense, whereupon they sank nicely and were a better size for the discus' mouths. I used the metro in the water and in the food both.
Some people will routinely administer a round of Prazi a couple weeks after the new fish have settled in. It's surprising how often the fish are carrying worms that they've just adjusted to having-- especially angels.

[fxie]

Ok, so I contacted my breeder and asked if he has administered any of these medications to the discus yet. He says he has used them before on discus he notices scratching, not eating well, being shy or hiding, but he says he has not yet had any reason to use it on the juveniles he currently has for sale. He mentions they all seem very healthy, so he has no worries of any parasites or infections.

Should I ask him to medicate the fish before I purchase them? Like judy said, I should probably purchase some prazi and metro myself and administer them to the 135, just in case. After calling around to a few places (locally and online), the medicine is quite expensive! A 10g bottle of prazi sells for $49.99 (those are Canadian dollars...as...I'm in Canada!), and the metro just as much. This is not yet factoring shipping, which is a minimum $10. Ebay has metro tablets for about $10+shipping, but I'm a little wary of purchasing "generic" medicine from ebay. Does anyone know of a reputable source to purchase these meds from?

[judy]

what you might do is ask the breeder if he will sell you some of both, along with the fish. Mine did.
And just keep them on hand... in case you notice any of those symptoms. They do look healthy in that pic, and you may not need them at all. But if your tank is harboring either (and with other fish, it's always quite possible, even though the others may be asymptomatic), you will want them on hand.
They are a bit costly-- but then, these are costly fish. and you might think of it as insurance. When you need it, you need it now-- not in ten days or two weeks when it finally gets shipped.

[Don Trinko]

When fish are stressed (moving them from a dealer to you) they get things they did not have at the dealers. I would wait and medicate if needed. Prazi, metro, Formalin and Malachite green are the meds I would want on hand. Quick cure has both formalin and malachite green, some people prefer to use them together. Don T.

[happygirl65]

I would just like to add that I felt the same as you before I got my discus. I figured that the planted tank was the best place for them but when it was apparent that the fish needed meds it was much easier to remove them to a small QT tank. I wished I had just put them in a bare tank for the QT period because they hid all the time behind the plants and I couldn't see them much less observe their feces etc.

Just my 2 cents from experience here (I also had many many years of exp with FW fish before discus but it's a whole other ball game when it comes to watching and treating illness) IMO medicating a 135 gal tank would be very costly.

You could use a clear plastic tub for your QT, it doesnt have to be a tank specifically, just for a week or two so you can watch them and make sure they are eating etc before putting them into the main tank.

As I read somewhere on this board, the QT is as much for the protection of the new fish as it is for the old....a stressed immune system will be taxed when exposed to the new environment. That doesn't mean that your tank is not pristine, it just means that they will likely be exposed to something they are not used to in the new home.

Yes they will have to deal with it eventually but at least if you can watch them for a couple of weeks in QT you will know how healthy they are, if they are eating and whether they need meds.

Hope this helps. Take it or leave it. I wish you the best! :) Your tank is beautiful!