Lost all my Discus During Karina..Here We Go Again..

[wxman12]

Hi Everyone,

Like many along the Gulf Coast, I lost all my Discus in the days following Hurricane Katrina. That was my first attempt at keeping
Discus and it went well until the storm.

Now, 2.5 years later, I decided I just had to get back into the hobby again. I relocated to Ohio and decided to upgrade from my old 29 gallon tank to a 55 gallon.

Here are the specifics:

55 gallon bare bottom tank
water temp: 86 degrees
pH: 7.4 (stable in my tap water supply)
Filters: Aquaclear 70 (no carbon), H.O.T. Magnum (White Diamond Only)
Chemicals: Prime, Aquarium Salt

I set the tank up 18 days ago. Before I was using a Marineland Emperor Filter. Based on recommendations from the group, I decided to go with a AquaClear 70 this time. No carbon, all sponges and even a extra bag of the bio material in that filter. For good measure, I also decided to put a H.O.T. Magnum on with just the floss filter and some White Diamond Ammonia absorbing material.

I didn't want any fish in there except Discus this time, so I did a fishless cycle. I also added "Cycle" to help get the biofilter established. After about 10 days, it looked as though the biofilter was ready so I ordered my fish from a reputable breeder. The fish went in 15 days after tank setup. I fed them lightly the first day (just bloodworms) and they ate just fine. THEN...my wife went into labor! I had to stay at the hospital for a couple of days, but I did come home to check the fish....that's where things were bad.

I lost 2 of 8 juveniles. The rest of the fish were HIGHLY stressed. So I added some Prime and did a 50% water change. That appeared to help. I waited an hour and did another 25% change...stress lessened even more. I had to then return to the hospital (new baby girl!)

I came back yesterday to find the fish stressed again...one in particular not looking good with some fin/tail rot..a few others with some white mucus marks on their scales. So I did another 25% water change, then another 50% a couple hours later.

Today, same story. I tested water extensively. I did fine 0.25 PPM ammonia which I assume is the problem. I have added Prime, so I hope that helps. I also replaced all of the White Diamond material. I then did another 50% water change. The fish actually appear a little MORE stressed after the water change. Ammonia levels remained the same before and after the 50% water change.

I'm so sorry to ramble on, but I am frustrated beyond belief. My thought is I messed up and didn't give the tank long enough to cycle (even though it appeared to be). So the question is, what should I do to try to get as many fish to survive as possible? Knowing I probably messed up, where to I go from here?

Thanks for reading my long post...please respond soon, these guys aren’t looking good...very skittish...

Thanks so much.

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
My advice is to do massive wcs for starters(same water parameters in as in the tanK)...morning and evening... 90% plus... if you do this...ammonia should not be an issue... in time the filter will catch up with the tank.... in the meanwhile I'd also contact the seller if local to you...see if you can buy a cycled sponge.

Table Salt at 1 tablespoon per 10 gals can help for any nitrite spikes..something that is sure to follow if theres an ammonia spike.
-al

ps... Congrats on the new family member:)

[judy]

but be aware that salt will pull the ammonia out of the White Diamond and discharge it back into the tank...

[Seastep]

Good to hear of another Ohio Discus Keeper!!!

I'm an Ohio guy myself, so I hope things work out for you. I've got to echo Al's suggestion on the water changes. They cure almost all of the "mistakes" we make in our husbandry.

I run a Fluval cannister filter on my 75 & 55 gallon discus tanks. I'd be happy to scoop out some of my bio beads for you. Send me a private message with your address and I'd be happy to drop it in the mail for you. (Good Karma is good for Discus!)

-- Scott

[brewmaster15]

Hi Judy,

but be aware that salt will pull the ammonia out of the White Diamond and discharge it back into the tank..

I'm not familar with the white diamond material....but if its zeolite...it should take much more salt than 1 tablespoon per 10 gals to recharge the media (in this case back to the tank.)

Ammo chips zeolite for instance takes 1/4 cup salt in 1/2 gallon....this salt added here would be 5-6 tablespoons per 55 gal...so he should be safe..


that plus the massive water changes and there should be little ammonia anyway.


hth,
al

[aquagal]

Sorry to hear about your problems.

One thing I don't think anyone mentioned yet, you can get a false ammonia reading when using Prime. It might be that your ammonia levels are just fine and what you are picking up is the influence of the Prime. I know this because I had the same issue. If I checked my ammonia a day after putting Prime in the tank, my ammonia levels were 0. Right after putting Prime in the tank, the levels would creep up. Also, the fish were acting fine and I had lots of cycled bio material so I suspected no ammonia. But, I did freak out at first.

Also, with all the water changes, I don't think you mentioned whether you are using aged water. You said that after adding water, sometimes they looked worse? This could be the culprit?

Good luck.

[wxman12]

Thanks so much for the replies. Right now they are all huddled in the upper back corner of the tank near the top together...

I did a 50% water change a couple hours ago (fish were more visibly stressed AFTER the change).

Ammonia: .25 PPM (no change)
Nitrate: ~10 PPM (up from 0 PPM)
Nitrite: 0
Total Hardness: 120 PPM
Total Alkalinity: 120 PPM
pH: 7.4

The salt was added at the suggestion of the breeder. I will continue to do some massive water changes and also stop putting the salt in for now. Any other suggestions are appreciated.

Oh and the water is NOT aged. Just don't have the means for doing it. HOWEVER, the pH of my tap water is very stable. It's the same after sitting a couple days as right out of the tap.

[DiscusChris]

If youre not treating your water prior to putting it in the tank, every water change is destroying your cycle. Your tap water has chlorine in it and unless dechlorinated it will kill all of the beneficial bacteria youre trying to build.

Also, unless your heating the tap water and adding some air to it prior to it going into the tank, the change in temp and ph from the water changes could be stressing the fish.

Depending on your tank size, I would just get one of those big rubber trashcans for my water changes. You can fill it the night before and throw a heater and air hose in it. Also, I would continue to salt the water after each water change.

Hope this helps, good luck!

[wxman12]

I actually match the water temp coming out of the faucet with a tank thermometer. I use a Python for the changes and kink the hose in order to aerate the water, which should clear much of the chlorine. I also add Prime as I am filling. This is a method I have been very successful with in the past (due to no space for a water holding can). I do hope to age water in the near future, however.

A few hours after a 90% water change, Ammonia and Nitrite are zero. However the fish are still stressed. I'm a bit worried my heater (A Marineland Stealth) is not working properly. It is set for 86 degrees F, yet my digital thermometer and old style one are both reporting 79. The water I added was 86 earlier. So I added another heater...let's see if this is the trouble. They still look stressed but all water parameters are good. These juveniles were raised in water of 88 degrees from the breeder, so if we're in the upper-70s, I can see why there could be a problem.

I will let this new heater run tonight and report back tomorrow. Fish are still hanging near the top of the tank. Thanks again for all the help.

[alxjss]

ok, i am NO expert by any means, but, i had the same problem, luckily,no fatalities. The person i bought my discus from were very healthy and it took me maintainance and interest to make sure they made it. I don't no where u bought ur discus from but the fishless cycle wouldn't be good for discus. From what i understand, don't use discus to cycle a tank. I want to say ur tank is not cycled. If that is the case, constant w/c's r needed until the tank is cycled. That is probably ur problem. Please, anyone out there thinking my logic is wrong, please step in. So... now that u have the discus in the tank, keep a close eye on them. Seeing fin problems is the first sign of something not right. Like i was told, w/c's, w/c's, w/c's, that is the key.
Am i right here or should i step back?:confused:
oh, by the way, the beers r tasting preeeety good right now:D

[bearcat]

I am no expert and you have been given great advise,but one thing, if you are doing a lot of water changes and your fish are new you could be stressing them out.
I would suggest keeping the lighting down low or off for a day or two to see if this helps ,also you say that your fish are around the top of the tank,could be in need of more oxygen ,maybe put in an air stone.
Best of luck,hope everything works out.
Congrads on you new baby.

[aquagal]

I am having the same problem with my Stealth heater and I'm getting ready to through it away. That will make the 3rd Stealth heater in less than 2 years that has crapped out on me. Don't think I'll buy anymore...

I know frequent water changes are important, but I think you are really stressing them out because the water is not aged and matched (in terms of temp/pH) with your tank water. It really will not cost you much $$ to get a trash can from Home Depot, a thermometer and air pump. If you can spluge, get a Mag Drive type pump and some tubing to pump aged water to you tank. It really is a lot easier is some ways than using the Python to replace water as you don't have to worry about getting the temp just right.

[wxman12]

I am having the same problem with my Stealth heater and I'm getting ready to through it away. That will make the 3rd Stealth heater in less than 2 years that has crapped out on me. Don't think I'll buy anymore...

I know frequent water changes are important, but I think you are really stressing them out because the water is not aged and matched (in terms of temp/pH) with your tank water. It really will not cost you much $$ to get a trash can from Home Depot, a thermometer and air pump. If you can spluge, get a Mag Drive type pump and some tubing to pump aged water to you tank. It really is a lot easier is some ways than using the Python to replace water as you don't have to worry about getting the temp just right.

Thanks...this is a brand new Stealth heater out of the box and I have verified it is NOT working. Thankfully I have a backup. I'm taking the Stealth back today to purchase another brand.

This morning, ammonia is back up to 0.25 PPM. I'm going to continue the water changes and get a new heater. Thanks for the advice on the aged water setup. I have a utility room I may be able to use for that in the near future. Let's hope I still have some Discus by then.

I'll keep everyone updated....

[aquagal]

I just ordered 2 Jaeger heaters from bigalsonline.com. Big Als has the best price and I think Jaegers are much more reliable.

[Jhill]

I'm a bit worried my heater (A Marineland Stealth) is not working properly. It is set for 86 degrees F, yet my digital thermometer and old style one are both reporting 79. The water I added was 86 earlier. So I added another heater...let's see if this is the trouble. They still look stressed but all water parameters are good. These juveniles were raised in water of 88 degrees from the breeder, so if we're in the upper-70s, I can see why there could be a problem.

I will let this new heater run tonight and report back tomorrow. Fish are still hanging near the top of the tank. Thanks again for all the help.

I have 8 stealth heaters and have not had a problem with any of them. I have also 5 digital thermometers (coral life) And they all are reading 2 to 4.5 degrees lower then the bulb type thermos .
I use my tds meter to check those thermos and it is within .5 to 1 degree from the bulbs. So I came to the conclusion that the stealth heaters were doing their job but the coral life digi thermos were all out of whack. They are in the trash now.
JMO

A Friend in discus
John

[brewmaster15]

HI,
If you do a large water change and the ammonia and nitrite are zero... and then several hours later or overnight you are reading .25 ppm ammonia.. Your Biofilter is not cycled for your tanks bioload.... when you read the >.25 PPM... test your nitrites as well. A nitrite spike follows an ammonia spike........ I think the main issue you have is biofilter........


hth,
al

[wxman12]

I have 8 stealth heaters and have not had a problem with any of them. I have also 5 digital thermometers (coral life) And they all are reading 2 to 4.5 degrees lower then the bulb type thermos .
I use my tds meter to check those thermos and it is within .5 to 1 degree from the bulbs. So I came to the conclusion that the stealth heaters were doing their job but the coral life digi thermos were all out of whack. They are in the trash now.
JMO

A Friend in discus
John

Yes, my coral life digital reads low. But the bulb thermo is in synch with my old Visi-Therm heater...the stealth heater no where near any of them. I just don't think it's working right. I'm going to try another brand just in case. Plus, I don't care for the lack of a light on them.

Yes, it's apparent the bio filter isn't where it needs to be. I just hope it gets up to par before I loose any more fish. I know others have had success with the fishless cycle, but this is the last time I try it!!

Thanks again everyone for all your help. You guys are great. I'll continue to keep you updated.

[wxman12]

Well, not good news here. I lost 2 more overnight...that's now 4 lost out of 8. Nitrate has come up. Ammonia still up as well. Still doing 90% water changes morning and evening. I just HOPE I can get them through this until the biofilter is established.

It seems to take much longer with the combo of Cycle and Aquaclear filters to cycle the biofilter than it has in the past with Cycle and my Emperor Biowheel filters...

Anyway...I feel dumb as can be. Wish me luck in saving the last 4..]

[madfish]

Im happy to hear about the good news and thats a new little girl. And Im sorry to hear about the bad new with your discus. How are things coming along now?

[wxman12]

Im happy to hear about the good news and thats a new little girl. And Im sorry to hear about the bad new with your discus. How are things coming along now?

Not well, I'm afraid. I lost 7. Only one remains. And this fish, surprisingly, seems to be doing well. This was the only fish to eat the past week and continues to eat.

I still do not think I am cycled yet. I still have small amounts of ammonia, zero nitrite and small amounts of nitrates...which has confused me. If anyone has a clue why this is the case, please let me know. I've been adding Cycle...

I'm considering getting a biowheel filter. I like the design of the AquaClears, but it seems as though it has taken much longer to cycle than when I have purchased new Emperors in the past. This tank/filter has been going for over 4 weeks now...

Once I'm 100% sure the tank is cycled, I'll be giving Rocky Mountain a call for some more fish (and not the OTHER place I bought from before)...they are close to me and seem to have a good rep.

Most importantly, my daughter is doing great! It's been hard to fit in all these water changes and help my wife take care of her too! :)