Plants and Meds?

[Kathy1230]

Hi Everyone,

I have a planted discus tank that became fluke infested. I say infested, because I have taken the fish out and used clout in a Q/tank only to return them to the planted tank a couple of weeks later. Then in about a week they get the head shakes and the small black freckles back. I also have removed the snail. I have been running a diatom filter in addition to my normal filter on the planted tank. I'm afraid to use the clout in the planted tank. I looked under the meds thread and could not find anything about people medicating a planted tank. So, my question is: has anyone had any experience using clout with plants?

All thoughts and suggestions are highly appreciated!:)

~Kathy
70g planted tank
Temp: 85 F
Plants I don't want to loose: anubias, Aponogeton Ulvaceus swords, lotus, Baclaya

[White Worm]

The small black freckles are a not flukes. Flashing (rubbing on things) can be a sign of flukes and you can knock back the population by changing water more often. Ho do you know you have an infestation? own a microscope?

[Kathy1230]

Hey, thanks for the reply. No, I don't own a microscope. I brought a pic to my lfs and they thought the head shaking and the black spots were indicative of digenic<sp>? flukes. The clout works until I put them back in the planted tank. I also do a water change every day of about 30% since this has started.

Do you know what else would cause black spots and head shaking?
Also, have you ever used clout with plants in the tanks?

Thanks again for all your help?

[White Worm]

Hey, thanks for the reply. No, I don't own a microscope. I brought a pic to my lfs and they thought the head shaking and the black spots were indicative of digenic<sp>? flukes. The clout works until I put them back in the planted tank. I also do a water change every day of about 30% since this has started.

Do you know what else would cause black spots and head shaking?
Also, have you ever used clout with plants in the tanks?

Thanks again for all your help?
Your lfs is looking to make some money off you or they just dont know anything about discus. Black spots are most likely pepper which is just something you get with pigeon type discus and it comes out more with dark backgrounds/planted tanks. Thats why it got better when you had them out of the tank and it got worse when you put them back. They will mimic their surroundings.

[Dissident]

Never used clout for flukes, prazi and PP treatments have been fine in a planted tank for me. Well, never have used clout in general. According to dr fosters&smith it should be safe for plants, but i would not use it if you have catfish or loaches in the tank (ie scaleless fish). However I would have to agree that the black spots are most likely just peppering, not a sign of illness. I would be sure you have flukes before you start medicating.



Clout
* Combats aquarium illness and infestations associated with external parasites
* Ideal for treating fish disease such as ich, anchor worms, and fish lice
* Effective fish medication for fresh or saltwater aquariums

Clout is a strong and effective fish medication for parasitic and protozoan infections.

Clout is a tablet fish medication specially formulated for fresh and saltwater aquariums. Helps treat visible parasites and parasitic disease conditions such as: gasping for air, rapid breathing, flicking, listless behavior, and excess mucus production. Provides effective medication for a wide variety of parasitic and protozoan infestations, including:

* Ich, Hydra, and Leeches
* Planaria, Epistylis, and Trichodina
* Hexamita, Tetrahymena, and Body fungus
* Digenetic flukes, Parasitic copepods, and Monogenetic flukes
* Learnia (anchor worms) and Argulus (fish lice)

Will not damage plants or algae. Does not affect pH and is safe for biological systems. Not for use with scaleless fish, aquariums with ornamental invertebrates, or marine systems with live rock.

[Kathy1230]

Thanks again! I always wonder about that with the fish store;). Anyway, I hope you are right. I am going to leave them alone and just watch them! They really hate to be moved. I am worried about the head shaking, it seems to get progressively worse as the days go by. Don't get me wrong, it's not constant, but it is noticable and the frequency seems to increase each day. Like I said, I've been doing w/c everyday after work and run the diatom filter during the w/c and for a few hours after that. To the naked eye, it is crystal clear! I put the snail in my other community tank and everyone in that tank seems fine.

If your not completey annoyed with me, I have another question: Will the peppering change it's location on the fish? Because it does seem to on mine.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!

[Kathy1230]

Dissident, Thank you for that info! I even wrote aq products yesterday about the use with plants and haven't received a response yet! I went to Big Al's online and there write up didn't have all that info listed.

I'm going to just watch them, I just can't figure out what has them doing this strange head shaking. They just started this about 6 weeks ago. I added a couple new plants.. the lotus. I thought I did a good job cleaning the plants prior to adding them to the tank. That's when the peppering and the head shaking started. They seem to be eating, don't show signs of stressful breathing... I do tend to panic when I notice any difference....

Thanks again!

[White Worm]

It may seem like it changes places but it is like "freckles" that just come and go all over for pigeon type discus. Stress can bring it out or dark background/surrundings. Not an illness most likely. Head shaking can be many things. How old are they? Size? How long have you had them? We need all the info you can provide about your setup. Flashing "quick darting" or "rubbing" on things is the sign of flukes. Clean water is the best preventative.

[Kathy1230]

The tank is 70gal. temp is 85F, ph7.2 water is 75% r/o (reconstituted with r/o right) 25% tap (well water that is sediment filtered). My Kh is 2, my GH is 3. ammonia, nitrates, nitrites all register 0. I only 3 discus, 20 rummy nose and 3 lemon tetras in this tank. The discus I got from great lakes discus about 6 months ago. One was 3"-3.5" and the other two were about 2.5". They've only grown about an inch and half. I had an apple snail in there and moved it to my other tank. I also had a cordy in there that didn't make it. If feed them tetra flakes, tetra bits and frozen blood worms. I have in the past fed them live blackworms and learned here that it is not a good thing because of the potential for illness. I don't have a truly planted tank. I have a gravel (estes) substate with a couple of pcs of driftwood. the gravel is quite large, pebble size. I don't seem to have a problem vacuuming it off when I do the waterchanges. I have glass planters (from Micheals) that I washed and boiled, then filled with flourite and plants. I have about 15-20 plants. Most are small slow growing, I do have a couple of large swords (Amazon and Ozelot). I wipe down the sides and front at least weekly. I do slack on the back glass. I probably only give that good scrubbing once month. Same with the heater. Sometimes I look at my other mishmash tank and think this one's problem is it too clean. LOL! Hope that helps. I feel like I missed something. I don't have all the fancy test equipment. All I have is test tubes and drops.

[Kathy1230]

The tank is 70gal. temp is 85F, ph7.2 water is 75% r/o (reconstituted with r/o right) 25% tap (well water that is sediment filtered). My Kh is 2, my GH is 3. ammonia, nitrates, nitrites all register 0. I only have 3 discus, 20 rummy nose and 3 lemon tetras in this tank. The discus I got from great lakes discus about 6 months ago. One was 3"-3.5" and the other two were about 2.5". They've only grown about an inch and half. I had an apple snail in there and moved it to my other tank. I also had a cordy in there that didn't make it. If feed them tetra flakes, tetra bits and frozen blood worms. I have in the past fed them live blackworms and learned here that it is not a good thing because of the potential for illness. I don't have a truly planted tank. I have a gravel (estes) substate with a couple of pcs of driftwood. the gravel is quite large, pebble size. I don't seem to have a problem vacuuming it off when I do the waterchanges. I have glass planters (from Micheals) that I washed and boiled, then filled with flourite and plants. I have about 15-20 plants. Most are small slow growing, I do have a couple of large swords (Amazon and Ozelot). I wipe down the sides and front at least weekly. I do slack on the back glass. I probably only give that good scrubbing once month. Same with the heater. I use an emporer bio wheel filter, yes it hangs on the back no chemical media. Just mechanical and bio wheels. I used to use the votex a couple of times a month. But have stepped that up with this strange head shaking. The fish seem happy otherwise. They are energetic, but not spastic. Not darting. They dont get jumpy they are not scraping on the plants or driftwood. One of them darts and kinda jumps/splashes at the top of the tank everytime I feed him. But he/she has always done this. He like to splash me. :D

Sometimes I look at my other mishmash tank and think this one's problem is it too clean. LOL! Hope that helps. I feel like I missed something. I don't have all the fancy test equipment. All I have is test tubes and drops.

[White Worm]

Cary is the man when it comes to discus (great lakes). Tanks with gravel can be difficult to keep clean. When you think you have vacuumed it good, take your hand, dig down and swish around. You didnt. For young discus, it is better to grow them in a BB tank then move them to show tank when older. They also require many feedings during the day (hence the no gravel) and it sounds like you have them on the right food. You can keep it cleaner with BB since they will not get all the food in gravel and it decomposes adding to the "dirty" water. Parameters sound good on the tank but you should register some nitrates if your tank is cycled. Lots of food and lots of clean water is what the doctor ordered.

[Wahter]

Clout, FlukeTabs, metronidazole, praziquantel, formalin+malachite green ("Quick Cure") are all safe for planted tanks.

Hope that helps,


Walter