Biospira/Nitrite question

[edmoran77]

Hello:

I just recieved my first group of discus last Friday. I've been doing a fishless cycle for the past 5 weeks and all levels appeared to have leveled out and the tank was completely cycled. Fish are doing great, eating, breathing normally, still a little spooked but doing very well.

My question is that about 12 hours after I added the fish I tested my nitrite and I had a reading of about .5 ppm. Of course I freaked since I thought everything was cycled. I did the following steps:

1. 50% water change with aged to temp water (double dose of prime) (Friday evening)
2. Feed fish first time Saturday morning and early afternoon several times (eating great) tetra color bits and fbw
3. Added aquarium salt at 1 tbs/10 gallons (noon)
4. Feed fish at 7:00 pm
5. 50% water change with aged to temp water (double dose of prime) readded 1 tbs/10 gallons of rock salt for replaced water
6. Added Biospira 3 oz to a 56 gallon tank at about 9:00pm

Fish still appear fine this morning and levels were still at about .5-.75 ppm of nitrite. I also had a little over 5 ppm of nitrate present as well, so things are cycling just not fast enough yet.

My question is when is it safe to complete another water change after adding biospira? I've never used this product and don't want to loose its effects by doing a water change to hastly. Any advise would be great. Thanks. Ed

[Tropical Haven]

Well the reason you are getting readings now and not when you were doing a fishless cycle is because even though your filters were cycled they weren't cycled enough to hold the bioload of the fish you put in there. They best thing to do is do a water change daily on your tank until the bioload in your filters catch up.

[edmoran77]

Well the reason you are getting readings now and not when you were doing a fishless cycle is because even though your filters were cycled they weren't cycled enough to hold the bioload of the fish you put in there. They best thing to do is do a water change daily on your tank until the bioload in your filters catch up.

I had been adding enough ammonia to reach 6 ppm once to two times a day! I would have thought that would have been enough. Hopefully the Biospira kicks it in to high gear. Grow bacteria, grow!!!:)

[RockHound]

I don't know what you are using, as a bio-filter.
Nor, the alkalinity & pH of your tank water.

But, you are getting fluctuations;
As your bio-filter bacteria population adjusts to the loads, put on it.

AOB = ammonia oxidizing bacteria, resulting in nitrites
NOB = converts nitrite to nitrate

First, there must be sufficient nitrite in the water for NOB to take hold.
Second, since growth of these bacteria is somewhat retarded by ammonia, the ammonia concentration must be brought nearly to zero by the AOB.

So there is a population dynamic where the AOB population explodes because of the large amounts of ammonia in the water.
They quickly use this up and produce a nitrite spike.
Since the ammonia level is low, the AOB population starts to die back.
At the same time, the nitrite spike fuels an explosion of NOB.
When the nitrite is used up, the NOB start to die back.

All of these dying bacteria, together with whatever food is being added to the system, decomposes to ammonia, which feeds the AOB population.

The pendulum swings back and forth until the AOB population keeps up with ammonia input, and the NOB population keeps up with nitrite production.

When these cultures are in equilibrium, the ammonia and nitrite concentrations are maintained at or near zero and your bio-filter & tank is cycled to handle the existing bio-load.

[edmoran77]

I don't know what you are using, as a bio-filter.
Nor, the alkalinity & pH of your tank water.

But, you are getting fluctuations;
As your bio-filter bacteria population adjusts to the loads, put on it.

AOB = ammonia oxidizing bacteria, resulting in nitrites
NOB = converts nitrite to nitrate

First, there must be sufficient nitrite in the water for NOB to take hold.
Second, since growth of these bacteria is somewhat retarded by ammonia, the ammonia concentration must be brought nearly to zero by the AOB.

So there is a population dynamic where the AOB population explodes because of the large amounts of ammonia in the water.
They quickly use this up and produce a nitrite spike.
Since the ammonia level is low, the AOB population starts to die back.
At the same time, the nitrite spike fuels an explosion of NOB.
When the nitrite is used up, the NOB start to die back.

All of these dying bacteria, together with whatever food is being added to the system, decomposes to ammonia, which feeds the AOB population.

The pendulum swings back and forth until the AOB population keeps up with ammonia input, and the NOB population keeps up with nitrite production.

When these cultures are in equilibrium, the ammonia and nitrite concentrations are maintained at or near zero and your bio-filter & tank is cycled to handle the existing bio-load.

Bio filter consists of the following:

2 oxygen plus sponge filters (type 3 I believe)
304 Fluval loaded with foam, prefilter, and biomax as well as a foam prefilter on the intake (I think its funny that fish just eat food off of the prefilter when the filter sucks up left over food). Makes cleaning easier!

Water Parameters
pH is a constant 7.4
Ammonia is not detectable
Nitrite: .5 to .75 depending on how you look at it
Nitrate: 5 ppm
kH: 5
GH:11
Temp: 85 F

I think I'll go ahead and do my last feeding about 7:30 tonight and then do a water change later about 9:30 pm, hopefully by that time the bacteria will have attached to something.

[RockHound]

I would surmise your nitrite level will drop off, fairly soon.
STABILITY is a key factor, with both fish & AOB/NOB bacteria.
You are just about there.

AOB/NOB are most productive at temperatures of 77F (25C) to 86F (30C).
AOB are most productive in a pH range of 7.4 to 8
NOB are most productive in a pH range of 7.6 to 8

Alkalinity also serves two very important functions in a biofilter filter system.
The equilibrium of carbon dioxide, bicarbonate, and carbonate in water serves as an effective means to keep the pH close to neutral.
As acid is added to the system from the biological filter, the acid is neutralized by the bicarbonate in the water.
Which prevents large shifts in pH.

AOB/NOB bacteria in the biological filter require bicarbonate to build cells as they consume ammonia/nitrite.
Large or rapid reductions in alkalinity result in dramatic shifts in pH, decreasing nitrifying bacteria growth efficiency and rates of nitrification.
Alkalinity should be at least eight times the concentration of ammonia and ideally over 100 ppm to sustain near optimal nitrification.

I am a fan of fairly large aerated wet/dry trickle filters.
Because, once cycled, they are very adaptable, yet stable.
Not to mention, easy to maintain.

About the only thing that will tilt them out of equilibrium is;
Adding medication;
Adding large doses of salt, all at once;
And, adding 20+ percent more fish, all at once.

[edmoran77]

Just wanted to inform you all that I came back from Easter at my Mom's and the nitrite levels had dropped to zero! I was seeing the ppm drop significantly on Thursday going into Friday. It appears that it took the Biospira treatment a good five days to completely cycle my new discus tank. When I came back this afternoon the nitrite was completely gone, however I will keep a watchful eye on the level in the future. Thanks for all the great advice (salt, h20 changes, prime, etc.) worked like charm. :)

Ed

[Don Trinko]

Salt will prevent nitrite poisoning. The salt level needs to be high compared to the nitrite level. Usualy 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon per 10g of water is plenty. Don T.

[Apistomaster]

I don't see why any salt is needed in the OP's tank. It is pretty much cycled.
Salt is best reserved for quarantine tanks and then only when needed. It does help promote healing of shipping scrapes.

The Azoo Oxygen Plus Bio-Filter three is too small. I use two #6(rated for 110 gal) models for all my tanks from twenty to 40 gallons. They overestimate the size of tanks recommended for each of their filters.

[Don Trinko]

I thought he had a nitrite problem. If the tank is cycled I agree; no salt needed. Don T.

[edmoran77]

Nitrite levels are now 0 ppm, no salt is being added. Sorry for any confusion. I also have a local aquarium friend making me a larger sponge filter as well so I will be installing that very soon to help with increasing biofiltration.

[edmoran77]

I don't see why any salt is needed in the OP's tank. It is pretty much cycled.
Salt is best reserved for quarantine tanks and then only when needed. It does help promote healing of shipping scrapes.

The Azoo Oxygen Plus Bio-Filter three is too small. I use two #6(rated for 110 gal) models for all my tanks from twenty to 40 gallons. They overestimate the size of tanks recommended for each of their filters.

Sorry the Azoo Oxygen Plus bio-filter is a five not three and I have two which puts me over my tank capacity. I do acknowledge however that it could be over-sized and will once my local aquarium friend builds me a larger homemade sponge filter that he has found successful in his breeding tanks. Thanks. Ed:)