OverFlows

[Chrisb]

I'm thinking about getting a 125gal or 120 gal from GlassCages. I can get an overflow put on and a sump. I have never had this type of filtration, but looks like a good way to hide stuff like Co2, heaters, and uv.

Few question?

Is this ok for a planted discus tank?
Do overflows filter better then canisters?
And how quiet are they vs a canister like a Eheim Pro 2?

Thanks,
Chris

[susantroy1]

I'm thinking about getting a 125gal or 120 gal from GlassCages. I can get an overflow put on and a sump. I have never had this type of filtration, but looks like a good way to hide stuff like Co2, heaters, and uv.

Few question?

Is this ok for a planted discus tank?
Do overflows filter better then canisters?
And how quiet are they vs a canister like a Eheim Pro 2?

Thanks,
Chris

answer to questions:

1, yes it is OK for planted tanks no matter what species you house.
2, Yes the filter bio load better, lacks in substrate cleaning (overflow up top)
3, Canisters are quieter, also less off gassing if using C02.

Troy

[Harriett]

You can just shut off the sump pump when you clean and use a python to clean the substrate. When you are done, and the tank has been refilled, turn your sump back on and you are in business.
Sumps are a terrific way to filter if you have a good system. I used CO2 with a wet dry for years--lost a bit more gas but not a problem--I ran my C02 line directly into the pump mouth on the return side ...the bubbles got churned up on their way back to the tank and through the spray bar at the bottom back of the tank--it worked fine. The CO2 reactor was too bulky and a PITA in comparison.
They do make some noise though--I switched to a big canister when I moved this tank to a bedroom a few years ago...too much noise for sleeping for me!
best regards
Harriett

[Ed13]

I used CO2 with a wet dry for years--lost a bit more gas but not a problem-


A PVC check valve on the overflow tube will allow you to run the "sump"(any water holding vessel will do) almost completely full of water and have the incoming water exit the tube(it will need a vent ) below the surface of the water in the sump reducing to very little the amout the CO2 outgassed. Not to mention increasing the total water in the system and reducing noise.
Just a tip :)

[alxjss]

A PVC check valve on the overflow tube will allow you to run the "sump"(any water holding vessel will do) almost completely full of water and have the incoming water exit the tube(it will need a vent ) below the surface of the water in the sump reducing to very little the amout the CO2 outgassed. Not to mention increasing the total water in the system and reducing noise.
Just a tip :)

What do u mean by check valve. I have a small hole in the pvc pipe which is supposed to be quiet. Not too bad once i get the top on it i guess. I don't think it will be too loud tho... My first sump. hope i like it......:confused:

[Ed13]

What do u mean by check valve. I have a small hole in the pvc pipe which is supposed to be quiet. Not too bad once i get the top on it i guess. I don't think it will be too loud tho... My first sump. hope i like it......:confused:

I meant a PVC ( for your pipes) check valve (to restric flow of water, in this case to only one direction so when there is a power outage the pipe returning water to the tank doesn't create a syphon and flood the floor) You'll only needed if you intend to run the sump full of water, though, which will prevent excesive off-gassing the CO2 from the water in planted tanks.) BTW, don't worry I'm just being picky as always and thinking too much:o this is not something commonly used, it was only an inside tip.:)

The hole you mention is only there to allow air to exit in a controlled fashion as to reduce the sounds of the water.

[Darrell Ward]

Hey Eileen. Did you find a container to use as your sump? You never did tell us, and I was curious. I'm sure you'll love the convenience of this type of filtration. I have 4 of them, and wouldn't trade them for a dozen canisters. Be sure you add a in-line check valve (you can get one at any hardware store) to the outflow line from your pump. It's good insurance. As stated above, this will prevent water from running back down your return lines from the tank through the pump, overflowing your sump when the pump is shut off. You can also do this by drilling a small air hole at the end of the return line in the tank to break the siphon, but I prefer the check valve myself. :)

[alxjss]

Hey Eileen. Did you find a container to use as your sump? You never did tell us, and I was curious. I'm sure you'll love the convenience of this type of filtration. I have 4 of them, and wouldn't trade them for a dozen canisters. Be sure you add a in-line check valve (you can get one at any hardware store) to the outflow line from your pump. It's good insurance. As stated above, this will prevent water from running back down your return lines from the tank through the pump, overflowing your sump when the pump is shut off. You can also do this by drilling a small air hole at the end of the return line in the tank to break the siphon, but I prefer the check valve myself. :)

sorry for the late answer. This is the first i've seen. Forgot about this thread. I do have a container. It is set up as a wet/dry for now. My plans r to build my sump out of my 55gal, which i plan on doing this week. I am on vacation so i have the time. I just want to no about an overflow on the sump so i can use all of the 55gal then just some of it. I don't understand the concept on how to make one. can anyone help w/this. Don't forget, my sump is under my stand.,

[dan3949]

Overflows and sumps are very common on saltwater reef tanks. There is a tremendous amount of info on numerous different designs that are easy to find using a Goggle search on overflow or silent overflow. You will find lots of info.

There are a few issues you want to be aware of with sumps/overflows.

1. Make certain your gravity drain from your tank to your sump has a greater capacity (i.e. flowrate) than your return pump. This will prevent an overflow of your tank.
2. Have a siphon-break in the return line from your sump to your tank. This is often 2 small holes drilled in the return line just a fraction below the normal water level in your tank. This prevents a siphon from forming when the return pump is turned off that will drain the water out of your tank and overflow your sump.
3. Gravity drain overflows from your tank to the sump can be very noisy if not properly designed. A simple open pipe works great, but is very loud (sounds like a continuos toilet flush). There are several DIY overflow designs that significantly reduces the noise. The Durso is probably the most popular. A Goggle search on "DIY overflow", "quiet overflow", or "silent overflow" will bring up several options.
4. You need to allow sufficient empty volume in your sump to contain the "live head" in the return line. When the return pump is turned off, the water in the return line will empty into the sump. You need to leave sufficient volume in the sump (usually 1-1.5 inches) to accomodat this volume without overflowing. In theory, a check valve will prevent this volume from gravity draining back to the sump when the pump is off. However, the valve is bound to leak one day and unless an overflow of the sump is no big issue, I would not rely on it.

[Ed13]

2. Have a siphon-break in the return line from your sump to your tank. This is often 2 small holes drilled in the return line just a fraction below the normal water level in your tank. This prevents a siphon from forming when the return pump is turned off that will drain the water out of your tank and overflow your sump.

Good points there dan, but it needs to be pointed out that having the siphon-break is not enough it needs to be periodically inspected to make sure debris, algae and even snails don't clog it.;)

[korbi_doc]

Hi guys, I'd like to set up cpl tanks with a sump...had my 125g with sump in NJ, but none now...my biggest problem then was the evaporation of water while away for few days (horse shows, lol) which worried me cuz it would stop the water flow & cause pump problems...is there a way to avoid this? I know I need to learn how to create an auto water changer for my tanks, but I'm not there yet....

Dottie

[dan3949]

The most common solution is installation of an auto top-off (ATO) system. If you have a sump, the ATO will keep the sump water level constant by adding water to replace evaporated water. You can buy fully-assembled ATO systems from most any large on-line retailer (Dr Fosters), or you can buy the necessary components and assemble yourself (and save at least $50). Aquahub.com has nice, inexpensive DIY ATO systems with detailed installation instructions and all the parts you need. I have two systems from them that have run for 8 months with no problems.

Another alternative is to install a continuous drip system feeding a tank with a gravity overflow. I have recently setup a 125 gallon discus tank with a continuous 0.5 gph drip. The tank has a gravity overflow. Thus, I will get a daily 10% water change and the tank level stays constant with no effort on my part. I run the water through a carbon filter (fortunately no chloroamines in my tap water) and our water has a good mineral contant (80 ppm) and decent pH (7.4). I have been running the system for 8 weeks. Water parameters are rock-solid and and it works great The discus will be added next week.

[korbi_doc]

:D Thanks so much Dan, will certainly look into both options, it would help me immensly for all my tanks....I'm still workin' to setup the fishroom, but it's moving along ok, just slow.....

Dottie ;)

[Ed13]

I don't trust ATO too much(although they do work) because they can short etc after a while and I'm also looking for a way to actually empty automatically from the tank. If you just need to fill the tank then this or a simple float valve are the way to go.
I did found some normally closed solenoids valves 115v for $60 dollars on the net and this couple with an automatic shut off or a float valve will do exactly what I need, instead of a flow thru set up. So it'll be between $80-$100 per tank to actually do nothing but feed the fish:D unless an automatic feeder is employed;)
I'm trying to pull some strings to get some good quality valves from a supplier here(at cost:D, but it's not looking good:() since I'll need lots of them for full automation. If this works out I'll post the set up.

[dan3949]

The ATO systems I am refering to utilize a float switch (in the sump) that is connected to a 12V volt relay, that will power a small pump/powerhead sitting in a makeup water tank. Almost every operating salt water reef tank uses this type of system. Because of the high intensity lights, these systems can have over 1 gallon/day of evaporation. Because of their widespread use, these systems are very reliable as long as you prevent snails from triggering your float switch and do not omit the 12 V relay (this prevents shorting out the float switch). This system costs $39 + $12 pump + makeup water tank.

FYI, my flow-through drip system costs:

$15 for all PVC parts for a DIY overflow
$20 for carbon filter (should last 6 months)
$5 plastic valve to adjust drip rate.
$10 tubing/hose and other fittings.

[Ed13]

The ATO systems I am refering to utilize a float switch (in the sump) that is connected to a 12V volt relay, that will power a small pump/powerhead sitting in a makeup water tank. Almost every operating salt water reef tank uses this type of system. Because of the high intensity lights, these systems can have over 1 gallon/day of evaporation. Because of their widespread use, these systems are very reliable as long as you prevent snails from triggering your float switch and do not omit the 12 V relay (this prevents shorting out the float switch). This system costs $39 + $12 pump + makeup water tank.

FYI, my flow-through drip system costs:

$15 for all PVC parts for a DIY overflow
$20 for carbon filter (should last 6 months)
$5 plastic valve to adjust drip rate.
$10 tubing/hose and other fittings.
Dan I know, but in saltwater ATO have a very limited lifetime, so don't fully trust them:) Seen many tanks crashed when one fails. I've never seen one in fresh water though, so it might just be what Dottie needs.
An ATO only top offs evaporated water though, I was talking about a system capable of replacing water without dilluting it first. But to tell you the thruth I no longer know what she wants/needs:D

[korbi_doc]

:p Ok, Dan & Ed....maybe I don't even know what I exactly want...the ATO would have worked for the evap problem I had with the sump in NJ...am now setting up the fish room again...I siphon the debris off the bottom of the tanks & just keep going 'til I've emptied what I want to change; then use a hose & pump to fill'm after draining'm...it's rather easy, but one at a time...I'd love to have a system to change water continuously, (automatically) but I'd still have to clean the bottoms....

Also, have a very large water container, as well as 2 50g drums & need to set'm up for auto-fill, so I will need float valves & I'm not sure I understand how they work, or how to set'm up, & is a relay necessary? Seems it will be to prevent failure & flooding...wish some of you talented guys were in my area, no-one here gets it, even the plumber's been no help, lol........I'll just keep searching....

Dottie ;);)

[dan3949]

How Float Switches Work (More than you ever wanted to Know!)

The purpose of a float switch is to open or close a circuit as the level of a liquid rises or falls. The circuit is used to either open/close a solenoid valve or turn a water transfer pump on/off. Most float switches are “normally closed,” meaning the two wires coming from the top of the switch complete a circuit when the float is at its low point, resting on its bottom clip (for example, when a tank is dry).

To complete a circuit, float switches utilize a magnetic reed switch, which consists of two contacts sealed in a glass tube. When a magnet comes close to the two contacts, they become attracted to each other and touch, allowing current to pass through. When the magnet moves away, the contacts demagnetize and separate (breaking the circuit).

In a float switch, the magnetic reed switch is hermetically sealed in a stem, most often made from plastic or stainless steel. The float encases a sealed magnet, which moves up and down the length of the stem as a fluid level rises and falls. As the magnet passes by the contacts in the encased reed switch, they touch and complete a circuit between the two lead wires, as shown in the cutaway below.

Properly used, float switches can deliver millions of on/off cycles, for years of dependable operation. Failures are almost always due to either aquatic creatures climbing on the float and "triggering" the switch, or electrical overloading, caused by spiking voltage. Before purchasing a float switch, read info on Preventing Spiking Voltage with a Relay.

Preventing Spiking Voltage

A pump or solenoid rated at just 3-5 watts can destroy a float switch rated for 50 watts, locking it in the “on” position and pumping a lot of water where you do not want it.

Pumps, solenoids and other devices can randomly draw twenty times their normal rating on start-up or shut-down. This intermittent “spiking voltage” can melt the internal leads of a float switch together, freezing the switch in an “always-on” state.

Using a relay is an easy, inexpensive solution to this problem. A relay is basically a second switch with its own small power source (e.g. a 9V Wall Transformer). The relay turns another device on or off when the float switch tells it to do so. It isolates a pump circuit from your float switch and operates on a tiny level of current, so it won’t harm your float switch.

Let’s say you want your float switch to turn a pump on when the water level in a tank falls below the level of your float switch. Your pump draws 15 watts and your float switch is rated for a 50 watt load. You know that a 15 watt pump could spike to 150 watts (up to 10 times the pump rating) and destroy your float switch, so you would wire the float switch so that it turns on the relay when the water level falls and you would wire your pump to the contacts of the relay.

The relay contacts can easily handle the 150 watt spike that the pump may cause. The only current flowing through the float switch is that tiny amount needed by the relay magnet. Since there is no physical connection between the relay magnet and the relay contacts that are conducting the pump power, voltage spikes will not flow through the float switch. Problem solved.


No automatic water change system (that I am aware of) will eliminate the need to periodically vacuum crud off the bottom of your tank. There are a few threads of system designs that can empty and then refill a tank. However, IMO, the ones I saw are too complex and/or have too high a risk to cause a flood.

[korbi_doc]

WOWWWW DAN!!!! Yup, more than I ever wanted to know, lol, but really, I'll just hafta digest it over the next few yrs, lol.....best way I suppose will be to just get one & set it up with the relay...hope it's not too difficult...would rather be doing surgery, lol....I think I'll put one in the 50 gal drums I have, then give it a try.....

Thanks Dan, Dottie ;)

[alxjss]

Okay, w/all that said, can u use the same setup in a sump w/ a empty bin next to it so when i do w/c's and turn off the sump, the excess water from the tank, when it fills the sump, will drain into the empty cont, and then when i turn the pump for the sump (poet and don't no it:D), it will all be returned and back to where i started w/ a completely full sump? Get it?

[Ed13]

Hi guys, I'd like to set up cpl tanks with a sump...had my 125g with sump in NJ, but none now...my biggest problem then was the evaporation of water while away for few days (horse shows, lol) which worried me cuz it would stop the water flow & cause pump problems...is there a way to avoid this? I know I need to learn how to create an auto water changer for my tanks, but I'm not there yet....

Dottie

lol, I just read this:o, I thought you were going to have all tanks run independently.
In this situation yes an ATO will work just fine, as long as it is a central system, . Every sump in use will need it's own ATO.



Okay, w/all that said, can u use the same setup in a sump w/ a empty bin next to it so when i do w/c's and turn off the sump, the excess water from the tank, when it fills the sump, will drain into the empty cont, and then when i turn the pump for the sump (poet and don't no it:D), it will all be returned and back to where i started w/ a completely full sump? Get it?

Kinda, the ATO or a float valve (if plumbed to a line) will fill the sump once it detects it's empty, but you will need to fill the empty bin next to the sump from the tank water yourself. Or install a bypass in the plumbing of the sump so that when you turn off the sump you close a valve that leads to the sump and open one that leads to the bin. If you leave the pump on with the same plumbing setup you can let the pump do your water change and the ATO fill her back up. Plumb the output straight to a waste pipe and you won't even need to deal with the waste water bin.;) Fairly easy and semi-auto.



No automatic water change system (that I am aware of) will eliminate the need to periodically vacuum crud off the bottom of your tank. There are a few threads of system designs that can empty and then refill a tank. However, IMO, the ones I saw are too complex and/or have too high a risk to cause a flood.

Good explanation of ATO. You are right here, there is no currently available way to avoid periodic vacuuming etc. I'll assume you come from the saltwater world, in which case you probably know the importance of flow and currents. If you can manipulate flows via powerheads or surge devices(like your toilet:D) the maybe in conjunction with an auto empty and refill device, then maybe we can reduce work by 50% or more after the automation. Which means that you'll end up with a system almost 100% work free, especially if you add BN plecos to clean the glass and scavengers to eat excess food. True, such devices maybe cost prohibitive and will basically take the fun out off the hobby but some may want it or needed.

Anyway I'm just happy I have someone to discuss these subjects with as many people look at me too weird when I talk about this.:D Collective thoughts as these may help someone come up with an answer. I'm just brainstorming outloud, lol

[alxjss]

thanks for the info ED. I like ur idea. I will study it for a while and my have a ? or two in the meantime if u don't mind??:o

[cich4fish]

has anyone removed an overflow and had any problems?I just bought a tank from someone and it has a overflow but I do not want to set up a sump.I want to remove it and hopefully not damage the silicone seal.Has anyone done this?

Thanks,
Eric
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