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scolley
07-04-2008, 11:08 AM
I'm a compulsive tinkerer that travels a good bit professionally, so I've become a big fan of tank automation. While I do enjoy puttering around my tank(s), I still do every thing within reason to set them up so that I don't have to. My aim is always low, very infrequent maintenance. But I've never had a bare bottom discus tank.

Until now.

So I've automated the water changes... that was easy. And most of the feedings will soon be with an auto-feeder. And I'm pretty sure there is going no getting around the periodic tank wipe down, and filter cleaning. That's OK. But the thing that's got me stumped is the frequent bottom cleanings. I'm not talking about a wipe down, just the regular removal of bottom detritus; uneaten food and poop.

Does anyone know a way to automate that stuff's removal?

And I don't mean "simplify". I've already experimented with siphon hoses and hand-held suction cleaners. I'm talking about automate... the process happening completely without human intervention.

I see several basic problems in trying to set something up.


Any kind of drain with an electronic valve to open/close will need to have a fairly large apature if it is going to create any kind of decent flow/suction on the bottom of the tank. Large apature solenoids are mucho expensivo. With the exception of lawn sprinkler solenoids, which I do not particularly trust.

Getting ALL the detritus (visible to the naked eye) would require a pretty strong flow. Or so it seems. And getting a really strong flow would likely require the assistance of something like a powerhead, which I would assume would have an impeller that would not particularly appreciate having chunks of garbage flowing through it.

If it's going to suck up detritus from the entire floor of the tank, then I'm curious what the out-flow manifold would look like.

And if it's going to be simplified by only sucking up stuff from one spot on the bottom of the tank (assuming all the detritus gathers in one location), then you've got a pretty strong current in the tank to create such conditions. And that current might interfere with normal discus eating habits.



So sorry for sounding negative. But there appear to be a number of obstacles to this. Maybe that's why I've not seen anything.

Does anyone know how to do this?

Thanks! And Happy Fourth for any Yanks out there!

LizStreithorst
07-04-2008, 11:30 AM
This isn't miantence free, but it works. Take a Magnum HOB filter with the micron cartridge and stick a piece of 1/2" CPVC in the intake hole instead of the intake tube that it comes with. Stick an L on the end so that it touches the tank bottom. It will suck up the nasty stuff, but you'll have to change your cartriges pretty often. I learned this trick several years ago from DaveC.

scolley
07-04-2008, 11:40 AM
Thanks Liz! I just happen to have a HOT Magnum laying around, so that's an easy solution. Potentially.

So you have done this? Do you put the Magnum's return in a drain? I would assume that you don't want to be recirculating that nasty water back into the tank. Is that correct?

PS - cleaning the filter every week or two is no big deal. I'm just trying to reduce the "once-to-many-times-a-day" stuff.

LizStreithorst
07-04-2008, 11:58 AM
Thanks Liz! I just happen to have a HOT Magnum laying around, so that's an easy solution. Potentially.

So you have done this? Do you put the Magnum's return in a drain? I would assume that you don't want to be recirculating that nasty water back into the tank. Is that correct?

PS - cleaning the filter every week or two is no big deal. I'm just trying to reduce the "once-to-many-times-a-day" stuff.

I didn't put the return into the drain, but you could I guess if you figured a way to balance the intake with the out flow. Remember that as the debris accumulates in the micron filter the intake will slow. I expect you'll need to change the cartridge 3 times a week.

Remember that the cartridge is a Micron filter. It catches the smallest stuff. I know that the way I did it, there was probably some teeniny stuff recirculated into the water column, but that's why you have to change the micron filter often.

Yes I have done it myself, and it works. I don't do it that way any longer because I actually enjoy vacuuming poo and I have a real low tech irrigation system where my waste water (fertilizer water) goes directly to my roses.

scolley
07-04-2008, 12:11 PM
I'll bet your roses love that Liz!

Actually I wasn't worried about visible stuff returning. I use that Magnum as a water polisher sometimes, and I knew nothing visible would get back. I was worried about the return of bacteriological content. But you guys have been doing this successfully, I guess that's not a concern.

But I'm only doing this on a tank with 5 2.5-3.0" fish. So I'm assuming it would take a while to clog that filter. Not inside a week anyway.

If so, that sounds like a good option. I am managing water level, so that's not an issue. So I could drain the return line. Or not - it sounds like from your experience.

So GREAT! This is indeed what I needed. Thank you! ;)

Now I just gotta go get another Intermatic timer....

Ed13
07-04-2008, 12:20 PM
Hmm, not that its easilly done or cheap but how about a zoo/aquarium like exhibit, with a trap to collect debris and the either pumped or vaccum manually or automatically. But a plywood, acrylic or concrete tank will be necessary.
Or maybe an airlift/powerhead setup to gather the particles then out by solenoid. I'm fairly certain than current properly set up will be usefull.

Honestly though, I've never been able to figured this part out. I trust you will Steve and let us know.

scolley
07-04-2008, 01:42 PM
Hmm, not that its easilly done or cheap but how about a zoo/aquarium like exhibit, with a trap to collect debris and the either pumped or vaccum manually or automatically. But a plywood, acrylic or concrete tank will be necessary.
Or maybe an airlift/powerhead setup to gather the particles then out by solenoid. I'm fairly certain than current properly set up will be usefull.

Honestly though, I've never been able to figured this part out. I trust you will Steve and let us know.
Thanks Ed. I'm not sure what you mean by the exhibit type setup. I have seen traps though. And everyone I've seen is like a grate of some form in the bottom of the tank. Easy for stuff to fall through, but not too satisfying for fish that like to peck food off the bottom - when they can't get to it for the grate.

As for the solenoid, that gets back to the aperture size problem. My little 1/8" aperture solenoids to drain and fill my tank cost $50-60 apiece. But to get any real, cranking flow, this would need to be a large aperture solenoid, like these (http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/800/Large-Orifice-Solenoids/solenoid/2). If you were operating just on the pressure of the water in the tank to drive a pre-established siphon that was opened or closed by a solenoid, it would need to be big, like that 1" model. But that's too much money.

The 1/2" model might work, but not with a sipon alone - not enough water movement to really suck up debris. I've experimented with a 1/2" ID hose siphon, and it can only pull in stuff from a short distance from the end of the hose in the tank.

Now if you boosted the flow with a pumpt, that would work. But then you run into the problem of the impeller getting destroyed by the garbage flowing through it. Or maybe not. Hmmmm..... got to go look into that. :)

LizStreithorst
07-04-2008, 01:55 PM
The crap gets sucked through the impeller of my pump every day. I don't think that it will be a problem.

scolley
07-04-2008, 02:18 PM
Cool. But what about little semi-soft things like TCB or something?

I'm assuming little soft stuff like poop would just slide on through - as you say. With pump playing the roll of the goose in the old saying "like... through a goose".

Assuming the semi-softs (like wet TCB) would go through too, I still see a snag if you were draining it off. And that's that you would HAVE to use a large orifice (1/2" anyway) solenoid for it to work. 'Cuz as far as I know, in-line pumps all leak across the impeller. So without a solenoid to shut off the flow, it would act like a siphon, slowly draining your tank.

BTW - that's why I don't trust lawn solenoids, they aren't real reliable, and failure means a drained tank (or flooding tank!) in many applications.

scolley
07-04-2008, 04:50 PM
So Liz - when you put that elbow from the Magnum down to the bottom of the tank, how far away does is suck stuff up from? Specifically, how close to the mouth of of the tube does the detritus have to be?

I didn't want to go upsetting my fish with me testing stuff, so ran a little test in a separate container - a 5 gallon Home Depot bucket. It's about the same height as my 29g tank. So the water pressure to any outflow at the bottom of the bucket should be about the same as my tank. I filled it up and spread TCB all over the bottom.

Then I got a big, cranking AM Oceanrunner 3500 (900 gph), with flexible PVC the sizes required by the pump (1" ID flowing in and 3/4" ID flowing out) and let it suck water out of the bucket, with the 1" hose on the bottom, or within 1/2" from it.

Water was RACING out of that bucket, obviously emptying it in about 20 seconds. But what disappointed me was that for most of the draining process, Tetra Color Bits were only pulled in from up to maybe 3" away. Tops. Clearly water was being pulled from above as easily as from the bottom. It was not until there was almost no water in the bucket, that everything in the bottom got sucked up - and quickly.

But if I let a tank get that low, so that everything on the bottom was getting sucked in... I'd have fish flopping around!

So, this leads me to the conclusion that unless you have some kind of manifold on the bottom of the tank, just sucking stuff up a with any single tube is only going to pull stuff in from a few inches away. And if that is going to work, you've got to have the flow of your tank set up so that things do indeed gather in one spot.

This should apply to a Magnum, Oceanrunner, whatever...

Please let me know if I'm off base on this conclusion. Thanks.




PS - The weather sucks here southeastern CT. That's why I've got time for this on the 4th. But soon I'm gonna be firing up the grill, tossing on some swordfish and veggies on the grill, popping the cork on a nice bottle of Sauvignon Blanc, and making a little dinner for my honey.

PPS - If you are reading this Al, I am NOT going to burn it. That's 'cuz the bottle is not going to get popped until AFTER the food goes on the grill. I seem to recall once when I got that formula turned around. :o

LizStreithorst
07-04-2008, 05:09 PM
I put the Magnum on one end of the tank with the intake and the outflow pointed at the other end. The outflowdirected all the poop slowly to the intake. I've never done it by draining the outies stuff to a drain pipe. It may not work that way.

phidelt85
07-04-2008, 08:46 PM
How about building a manifold along the bottom of the tank tied to the suction of a pump? If the discharge of the pump was above the height of the tank you shouldn't have to worry about a siphon, or install a solenoid-operated vacuum breaker on the suction side. Obviously, if you went this route you would need a self-priming pump.

phidelt85
07-04-2008, 08:54 PM
To elaborate on the grid, I had seen somewhere where someone used 1/2" pVC and built a header with lateral lines. The ends were capped and then slots were cut along the pipe tangent to the bottom of the tank. I guess it would be like a reverse undergravel jet system minus the jets.

scolley
07-05-2008, 08:27 AM
I put the Magnum on one end of the tank with the intake and the outflow pointed at the other end. The outflowdirected all the poop slowly to the intake. I've never done it by draining the outies stuff to a drain pipe. It may not work that way.
Oh, I see. Thanks....

When you turn on the Magnum it creates a flow that blow the stuff to where it need to be. Got it! If I put an outflow somewhere else I don't have that advantage.


How about building a manifold along the bottom of the tank tied to the suction of a pump? If the discharge of the pump was above the height of the tank you shouldn't have to worry about a siphon, or install a solenoid-operated vacuum breaker on the suction side. Obviously, if you went this route you would need a self-priming pump.Good point. I'm happy with the manifold idea. I just don't know what it would look like.

I could go experimenting, but I'd be really happy to find out someone has already done that for me!



To elaborate on the grid, I had seen somewhere where someone used 1/2" pVC and built a header with lateral lines. The ends were capped and then slots were cut along the pipe tangent to the bottom of the tank. I guess it would be like a reverse undergravel jet system minus the jets.Well, that's a manifold really - what you are describing.

That might work if constructed correctly, and your pump moved a lot of water quickly. I hate to think of what it would look like though... would be practical, but would definitely mess up the beauty of a BB tank.

Will have to go cogitate on this problem. Thanks.

korbi_doc
07-05-2008, 12:15 PM
:confused: Guess it must be my age, but I don't get all this tech stuff, maybe not enough mind effort put into it, lol.....sure do wish y'all would get this system perfected tho....I'd give anything to have it work....I've not yet been able to even set up float valves for incoming, lol....however, I am planning to set one of my 55g tanks up with the undergravel jet system...that looks to me like it would at least cut the work & mess down a great degree....cichlidforum's Marc Elieson demonstrates it pretty nicely: going to use 3/4" pvc with 1/2" outlets & a mag drive pump...that's my next project...with my health & back problems, gotta cut down on work cuz it's not gettin' done, lol.....

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php

Dottie ;)

scolley
07-05-2008, 01:19 PM
Thanks Dottie. That was a nice link. Marc Elieson seems to have made an interesting little contraption. But unfortunately it requires regularly cleaning out a sponge filter in the tank. Plus it kind of blows stuff away from the bottom, which would interfere with their eating - along with kick the food up to get caught in other filters.

Good try though. Thanks.

So I suppose the search continues. There HAS to be a great solution out there. The Mag is certainly the best thing I've seen so far. I wonder if there is something that is less maintenance (though once a week ain't so bad), and will allow me to run the waste water out of the tank, without it becoming a siphon... though as mentioned, setting the drain point higher than the tank solves that. Too bad I can't accommodate that in my current setup. :(

Greg Richardson
07-05-2008, 03:47 PM
I know others have thought of this but no one has designed it.
Same principle as automatic swimming pool cleaners that are programed to clean your pool. For BB tanks be great if you just took it out of the water and cleaned out a filter. Oh well I can dream. Who ever does it though is going to make huge $$$.

LizStreithorst
07-05-2008, 03:52 PM
Steve, If your goal is 0 maintenance you need to hire an employee (and hope that you've hired a competent one). Discus ARE NOT a maintenance free fish. The Magnum thing works and is easy. If I were you I would give it a try before you decide to do something time consuming and complicated. The easiest way if often the best way.

scolley
07-05-2008, 05:14 PM
Thanks Liz. I will probably indeed give it a shot. Though I will certainly look to improve on it.

Everything about discus does not have to be high maintenance. Automation can solve lots of problems. I've already been quite successful at automating lots of things in my 180g planted discus tank. Within the norms of the hobby, I spend remarkably little time keeping it running and in good form.

Now I've got my first BB, and as I learn about how they are managed, once again I see lots of possibility for improvement. Within the 1st week I automated the water changing. That is a tremendous time saver. Now I'm tackling what appears to be the next, big time hog.

I don't seek to eliminate all work in keeping discus. But do plan on doing what I can to keep myself from being a slave to the hobby - spending time on it because I chose to, not because I have to. I spent a few years figuring out how to do exactly that with plants. Discus are next.

Thanks for the help!

Ed13
07-05-2008, 05:35 PM
Now I've got my first BB, and as I learn about how they are managed, once again I see lots of possibility for improvement. Within the 1st week I automated the water changing. That is a tremendous time saver. Now I'm tackling what appears to be the next, big time hog.


Did you post any details on how you did it besides the comments in this thread?

I'm with you, time is what is important to reduce not necessarily effort.

Keep up the good work!

scolley
07-05-2008, 05:51 PM
I know others have thought of this but no one has designed it... Who ever does it though is going to make huge $$$.Wow. I wish that were true. But truth be told I've already figured out how to reliably automate lots of labor intensive stuff for planted tanks. And then looked at marketing some of it. But my time savers cost money. And this is not a hobby where people are often inclined to spend significant money for time savers. Though there are exceptions - like myself where professional travel means spend it or get a new hobby. Or breeders where it's not one, two or three tanks... but dozens or hundreds. But that market is small. Or that's what my informal poking around has indicated.

But would great to be wrong. I'd love to sell a good idea for a little do-ray-me!



Did you post any details on how you did it besides the comments in this thread?It's so simple I didn't think it was worth posting. I'm happy to start a thread on it if it makes sense. But truth be told, this is a temporary tank for me, and I abandoned my normal strictures about automation being highly reliable and elegant. Instead it's merely pretty reliable and ugly. But it works. And for a temporary tank that's good enough.

If you think it's work a thread, pls let me know. Happy to do.

korbi_doc
07-06-2008, 12:35 PM
It's so simple I didn't think it was worth posting. I'm happy to start a thread on it if it makes sense. But truth be told, this is a temporary tank for me, and I abandoned my normal strictures about automation being highly reliable and elegant. Instead it's merely pretty reliable and ugly. But it works. And for a temporary tank that's good enough.

If you think it's work a thread, pls let me know. Happy to do.

I would! need to automate something to help, gettin' too old to have to work at anything, lol....

Dottie ;)

Ed13
07-06-2008, 08:58 PM
I would! need to automate something to help, gettin' too old to have to work at anything, lol....

Dottie ;)
Me too, except the old part;):D:D:D

scolley
07-06-2008, 09:29 PM
OK folks. It's in the works! I've written most of the text, but I just got to dig up links to the various parts. Hope to have it up tomorrow nite.

But believe me, it's no big deal. ;)

scolley
07-07-2008, 07:51 PM
OK, I've tried to describe my easy auto water change system here (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=461910#post461910). Hope it helps!

phidelt85
07-07-2008, 08:55 PM
That's pretty sweet Steve. I really need to get on the ball and try this on my growout tank. I'll probably go with solenoids as my fill and drain lines are already plumbed however. Although it would be much easier to drain the tank via a powerhead than finding a 1" solenoid. Much cheaper I should say.

scolley
07-07-2008, 09:03 PM
That's pretty sweet Steve. I really need to get on the ball and try this on my growout tank. I'll probably go with solenoids as my fill and drain lines are already plumbed however. Although it would be much easier to drain the tank via a powerhead than finding a 1" solenoid. Much cheaper I should say.
Jose, 1" aperture solenoids are INDEED very expensive. I don't know if you looked at the link to the diagram for my 180g that I referenced at the bottom of the post... but I do use solenoids for my big tank. If you are already plumbed, it's the WAY to go. But big aperture solenoids are expensive. My little 1/8" solenoids were $50-60 a piece. So I compromise by doing 3 separate, 15 gallons each, slow drain/fill processes each night. That doesn't get you CLOSE to a 50% daily water change. But it's a planted tank, so it has it's own biological mechanisms for keeping the water clean.

Greg Richardson
07-07-2008, 09:37 PM
Wow. I wish that were true. But truth be told I've already figured out how to reliably automate lots of labor intensive stuff for planted tanks. And then looked at marketing some of it. But my time savers cost money. And this is not a hobby where people are often inclined to spend significant money for time savers. Though there are exceptions - like myself where professional travel means spend it or get a new hobby. Or breeders where it's not one, two or three tanks... but dozens or hundreds. But that market is small. Or that's what my informal poking around has indicated.

But would great to be wrong. I'd love to sell a good idea for a little do-ray-me!



I'm talking about eliminating daily poop cleaning in BB tanks.
If a hobbyist had 4 tanks and you had something that TRULY cleans all the bottom like that swimming pool crawler I described why wouldn't a hobbyist spend $300.00 a tank on them?
When you add up time, health of fish, cost of fish, that is a deal!

The hobbyist market is big enough to do it.

scolley
07-07-2008, 10:08 PM
Greg - I appreciate the feedback. Thanks. But I'm curious about your response. And believe me... I'm not trying to bust your chops. I'm new to the whole bare bottom thing, so I really don't know -

When you say "TRULY cleans all the bottom like that swimming pool crawler", do you mean like scrubbing it? And if so, doesn't that imply that all the other surfaces have to be scrubbed just as well also, or you just done a half-a**ed job?

And if you don't mean scrubbing it, are you just referring to cleaning everything that is visible and also not attached to the bottom? I.e. - detritus.

If you are going to try to fix a problem, you gotta know what the problem really is.

Thanks!

phidelt85
07-07-2008, 10:49 PM
I don't think scrubbing would have to be part of the solution. If it just picked up the crap that's all I would ask of it to do.

Greg Richardson
07-08-2008, 02:28 AM
Steve. Not scrubbing it. Just sucking up poop, uneaten food, or anything else up. I don't have a schedule for scrubbing my tank walls and floor just do it when it looks like it's time. But if I could eliminate the poop cleaning time it be worth the money.

scolley
07-08-2008, 07:33 AM
Cool! Sounds exactly like what I was hoping to do. Clean poop and uneaten food. That defines the problem. Now lemme go chew on that a while. Unless of course there are other solutions other there that anyone wants to offer up? :)

disvegas
07-09-2008, 04:34 AM
I may have a simple solution for what you are looking for. It's diy, cheap and non fancy and requires minimum effort to setup. It works very well for me and improves my water quality/clarity by a large degree without the need to change water every few days with the setup. In fact, I now only do 50% wc & clean the filter once every 2 weeks or so and my water is still very clear/clean, so are my tanks. In the photos, there are pvc setup on the right of the tank with top/bottom open. Water is coming in from the left side of the tank and going out through the top/bottom pvc mouth, effectively carrying away almost all the leftover/feces in a slow pace. The water is then filtered out and polished by a combo of mesh, sponge and sand in a wet/dry system, also a diy unit. Any questions? pls ask.

scolley
07-09-2008, 10:34 PM
Thanks disvegas! Do you keep it on all the time? Or just some of the time?

I ask because if it is on all of the time, it seems like it would interfere with the "grazing" form of lazy feeding off the bottom that discus engage in.

And either way, how often before you clean your filter?

I ask because this is - in many ways - this seems similar to the Magnum HOB solution Liz indicated initially - you are recirculating the water. Is that correct?

In my ideal solution I'd like to get the "crap" completely out of the loop. Are you?

Thanks for posting! Looking forward to the response.

pete321
07-16-2008, 05:38 PM
Hi

Could you show us a pic of your filter set up?
Pete

scolley
07-16-2008, 09:29 PM
Sure. I'll try to get one. Not sure how well it will show this though...

Mick B
07-17-2008, 09:40 AM
Hi Scolley / All,

different systems which could be used;

1, Water taken out of the tank & cleaned then returned closed-loop with cannister or sump/system.

2, Water taken from one place in tank, cleaned/filtered and returned to another part of the tank, again closed loop (internal filter, or HOB etc).

3, Water taken from the tank and NOT returned (Water change)

The focus of all this is 'how clean'? are 10 visible chunks of poo, worse than 1000 micro non-visible chunks of poo?

Any system that re-cycles the cleaned water will still 'effectivly' contain the poo, just it's now stuck in the filter and not visible.
If this is OK (I use UG so OK by me etc) then it's only a question of increasing the filter capacity, to cope with the load, prior to the maintenance period being reached.
It can also be 'stopped' periodically (timers) while the fish graze etc (30 mins max IMO).

But I believe what you are looking for is a 'removal system'.

To that end, with my BB cubes, I notice the poo and food migrates to below the inlet of the constant filter (internal or bubble/sponge etc), so if the inlet to the filter were raised to say 3" from the bottom of the tank, the poo & food will migrate to that position, but still allow the Discus to graze.
(a tilted or 'V' shaped base plate may assist this).

Periodically, if a large internal power-head with the inlet piped to the spot, where the crud accumulates were used, a timer could fire-it-up for a few mins, sucking the accumulation out to drain (followed by auto-top-up etc).

If there is concern that the 'large P/head' impellor could foul, then a large-pore foam could be used as safety etc.

HTH, Cheers, Mick B:)

pete321
07-17-2008, 10:47 AM
The way I understand things is this, Discus are sensitive to TDS(totally dissolved solids).After a water change the TDS value drops. This indicates to me that the pollution that has been removed contains high TDS while the new water has a lower TDS.
The longer between water changes, the higher the TDS reading will be.
No matter what bio filter system you have this still seems to apply. The more efficient your bio filter the slower this might happen???????

Now the way that I see filtering should happen is the solids need to be totall removed from the system before they dissolve!!!!!
I don't like sieves or mesh or sponge for this as this just provides a surface for the solids to stick to with water flowing through and this then aides in dissolving the solids. I think that is might even aggravate the situation.
The dissolved solids could maybe chemically neutralized by oxidation by using ozone or maybe even potassium permanent. (this is just my theory. I have not tested this yet and even is it works, it might do more harm to the fish that benefit the fish may gain from a lower TDS reading)

MY solution is to have a settling area outside the tank(sump) where the water is circulated and allowed to flow very slowly for a minimum distance??? to allow the solids to settle out. This then needs to be flushed regularly to remove the solids from the system. A similar system is used on koi ponds.

scolley
07-19-2008, 06:11 PM
Wow. This is great feedback. Thanks!

But I think it raises a fundamental question...


What is the objective of bottom cleaning?

If it is removal of biological material to minimize biological/bacteriological process from the food and excrement, then any system that filters but recirculates water appears suboptimal.

But if it is TDS removal, then such systems might work fine. Keep in mind, RO'DI is just a filtration system. And if the aim is merely TDS reduction, then some filtration system that deals with the muck on the bottom should be able to be devised without resorting to actually removing the detrus from the filtration loop as I was originally intending.

Can someone please speak - authoritatively - about the objective of regular bottom cleaning?

Is it TDS reduction, biological material removal, both, or something else? Thanks.

pete321
07-19-2008, 06:57 PM
In this case, TDS and bio waste is the same. This is because you have already removed mineral TDS by RO before the water enters the tank. So any increase in TDS can only be from the bio waste breaking down. If you can remove the bio waste before it breaks down then you can slow the rate that the TDS reading rises.

scolley
07-21-2008, 10:19 PM
In this case, TDS and bio waste is the same. I understand that the end effect is the same in this case - remove the waste, and both TDS and bio-contimination are both reduced. That was self-evident, right?

That doesn't change the basic question... do we do this to reduce TDS, bio-waste, both, or something else? And the reason why that question is so important is because...


If the goal is to reduce TDS...
Then fairly standard filtration might be able to take care of that.



If the goal is to reduce bio-contamination (or TDS and bio-contamination)...

Then it becomes a tougher problem - possibly requiring removal of the waste from the filtration loop completely.


And who knows what's required if it is something else? So - to repeat - can someone please speak authoritatively about the objective of regular bottom cleaning?

GrillMaster
07-21-2008, 11:33 PM
Or you could just go BB and do a 50% WC everyday...;) Sorry Steve...Couldn't resist...:D

yim11
07-22-2008, 12:20 AM
Steve,

While I can't speak authoritatively about the objective of regular bottom cleaning, I would like to propose a possible solution.

I think the old diatom filters (http://www.diatomfilter.com/index.htm) we used to use at the pet store MANY years ago would work if combined with ideas from Mick B - "I notice the poo and food migrates to below the inlet of the constant filter (internal or bubble/sponge etc), so if the inlet to the filter were raised to say 3" from the bottom of the tank, the poo & food will migrate to that position, but still allow the Discus to graze." and disvegas comments.

A really strong filter (like the diatom) run for a few minutes around a area known to collect debris might work. The extra filter strength would also help remove debris not close to the known collection area.

My though is something along the lines of a 4-6" concave plastic disk (kind of a really big contact lens) about 1/4" or less off the bottom of the tank, maybe a plastic disk attached to the bottom of a sponge filter, located at the main/known debris collection area, connected to the high power filter intake at the top/middle of the disk. This filter would be run for only a few minutes a day so would limit the amount of tank water returned.

I think the high power of the filter combined with the disk shape and low height from bottom would help to draw most other debris from the tank. Locating the filter in the middle of the tank would probably have the best results, but of course - all this is concept.

The drawback is the high power filter would need to have the media cleaned on a regular basis. I think daily would be required if there was waste sitting in the filter for over 20 hours (assuming run once per day). So I'm not sure if you really solve the core problem but it might be a start to a total solution.

Just my $0.02...
-jim

scolley
08-02-2008, 10:48 AM
I think the old diatom filters (http://www.diatomfilter.com/index.htm) we used to use at the pet store MANY years ago would work if combined with ideas from Mick B... and disvegas comments.

A really strong filter (like the diatom) run for a few minutes around a area known to collect debris might work. The extra filter strength would also help remove debris not close to the known collection area.
Thanks Jim. And sorry for the delayed response.

This is an interesting idea. Though you did not say it directly, I'm assuming that you are suggesting a diatom filter because it has the ability to remover biological pathogens from the water. Good idea in that regard. But as you indicated, all the maintenance it seems to require defeats the purpose IMO.

The very first suggestion by Liz - one that apparently seems to work for multiple people - still seems like a good solution. But until I can get confirmation on the actual purpose of bottom cleaning is removing the solids, and not eliminating the biologically reactive material, I can't know if that is an ideal solution. But maybe I'm off course here...

Can a Magnum micron cartridge (8 micron pores) filter bacteria out of the water? If so that original suggestion could be close to ideal. Liz indicated that you could wait several days to replace (or clean) the media.




My though is something along the lines of a 4-6" concave plastic disk (kind of a really big contact lens) about 1/4" or less off the bottom of the tank, maybe a plastic disk attached to the bottom of a sponge filter, located at the main/known debris collection area, connected to the high power filter intake at the top/middle of the disk. This filter would be run for only a few minutes a day so would limit the amount of tank water returned.

I think the high power of the filter combined with the disk shape and low height from bottom would help to draw most other debris from the tank. Locating the filter in the middle of the tank would probably have the best results, but of course - all this is concept.That's a good idea! I'm not sure about the sponge filter part, but the concave disk idea seems solid!

Thanks Jim.

broken poles
09-18-2008, 11:52 PM
Hi everyone, please forgive the late response but I just joined.This is a great forum! What if Disvegas's system was run to a drain instead of a filter? I run a 180 gal. With a wet/dry and a 30 with an aquaclear hang on and I have them both hooked to a semi automatic water change system. All I have to do is flip a switch to change water in both tanks via overflow/powerheads with aged rodi water. This could easily be on a timer. It goes to a drain in the laundry room. It seems that many people here do a large w/c daily so if the flow was directed along the bottom at a strong enough flow via some sort of manifold would Disvegas's idea not work? The poo would be gone and the water is changed at the same time.the only problem might be getting the overflow to flow fast enough to keep up with the current necessary to move the poo in a short time. Just my thoughts. Shane

Patr1ck
12-12-2008, 05:02 AM
How about one of these.lol:laugh:

P

scolley
12-12-2008, 08:45 AM
...It seems that many people here do a large w/c daily so if the flow was directed along the bottom at a strong enough flow via some sort of manifold would Disvegas's idea not work? The poo would be gone and the water is changed at the same time.the only problem might be getting the overflow to flow fast enough to keep up with the current necessary to move the poo in a short time. Just my thoughts. Shane
Shane I think the solutions pretty much fall into two camps... Disvegas/LizStreithorst type solutions, where waste bearing water is filtered and returned - and using the water change as you indicated, to remove the waste from the system completely.

Liz's solution seemed great, and easy too set up. But I have a real love/hate relationship with my HOT Magnum. I love how it cleans. But I HATE changing it. And Disvegas basic idea sounds good, but it won't work unless you have a drilled tank as he does, or you put a powerhead into the tank. I have a powerhead in my tank now to drain water, and I really want to get it out.

So that is all the convincing I needed to push me into the "just get the waste out as a part of the water change process" camp. And I've been working a solution to that problem for a few months now. I've invested a bit of money, and quite a bit of time, and I hope to have a solution before too long. I'm starting to build my 2nd prototype this weekend.

Eddie
12-12-2008, 09:11 AM
Good luck with your next set-up Steve. Let us know how it turns out. I was thinking of something like an undergravel set-up except having no gravel. A pump pulling the muck from the bottom. :o

Eddie

razputin88
06-23-2009, 04:20 PM
If only they would make something a little smaller for aquarium use.

http://store.irobot.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3024776&cp=2662061&parentPage=family

scolley
06-24-2009, 08:04 AM
Actually I finished this little puppy - ran it a few months without cleaning the tank once. Heck, Al came over and bought fish out of the tank that was cleaning itself with it.

Problem is, IMO it's got no commercial value. Someone with decent DIY skills will be able to cobble one together for themselves - now that I've done all the expensive homework on flow rates and prototyping.

So soon I'll may write it up for everyone, with pics, parts list, and all that. But I definitely proved - it can be done! ;)

razputin88
06-24-2009, 11:08 AM
Actually I finished this little puppy - ran it a few months without cleaning the tank once. Heck, Al came over and bought fish out of the tank that was cleaning itself with it.

Problem is, IMO it's got no commercial value. Someone with decent DIY skills will be able to cobble one together for themselves - now that I've done all the expensive homework on flow rates and prototyping.

So soon I'll may write it up for everyone, with pics, parts list, and all that. But I definitely proved - it can be done! ;)

Hey Scolley,

You'd be doing us a big favour if you could post pics and a write-up of your gizmo. I think anyone with a bare bottomed tank would buy one.

Absolute Angels
07-09-2009, 12:25 AM
I'm not sure if this is sorta what your looking for but this is what I came up with for my BN pleco grow out tank.

It's a 29 gallon tank. The filter is a Penguin 350. I just extended the intake with 3/4" pvc and Tee'd it off at the tank floor. Two rows of small holes drilled along the bottom of the tank. Then on one end of the tank a small fountain pump is aimed to sweep the poo into the filter. The filter cartridges are then just rinsed daily.
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/absoluteangels/bnnursery_03.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/absoluteangels/bnnursery_01.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/absoluteangels/bnnursery_01a.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/absoluteangels/bnnursery_02.jpg

Anyone who has BN plecos knows how MESSY they are....You wouldn't even know there were plecos in the tank it's so clean on the bottom. Now I'm not sure if this is practical for Discus but maybe someone can get ideas :)

~Stacy

lippydippy
07-27-2009, 01:22 PM
IMO why not just use a skimmer? Very simple to setup and pulls all the filth and dirt from the tank

yeutinh
01-12-2010, 04:14 AM
I've just joint SD today, and i would like to share the design of my tank as an idea for automated bottom cleaning for BB tank. Actually, this design is used for arowana tank, but with discus tank, it is good too. The flow of water from pump will sweep all waste from fish, food, etc to the hole which I drilled to make a outlet to the sumptank. If you have any question, please let me know :D.

scolley
01-13-2010, 09:22 PM
Hey Scolley,
You'd be doing us a big favour if you could post pics and a write-up of your gizmo. I think anyone with a bare bottomed tank would buy one.Agreed. Sorry I’ve been too preoccupied to do that. But it’s not forgotten, and I will definitely try to do so…


I'm not sure if this is sorta what your looking for but this is what I came up with for my BN pleco grow out tank...
~StacyThanks Stacy. That looks like a nice setup. I tried something similar myself. What I found is that the small holes that you are showing would get clogged with discus excrement. And that when you increased the size of the holes, the water flow was reduced enough that it left behind a large amount of that excrement. Likewise having holes not in direct contact with the glass on the bottom also left over a good bit of excrement that was just too dense to be picked up. The compromise that I eventually wound up with was having a few large (strategically placed) holes, directly in contact with the glass. The size guaranteed no clogging, and the small number kept the flow rate high.


IMO why not just use a skimmer? Very simple to setup and pulls all the filth and dirt from the tankHow would that work? And how would it separate the detritus from the clean water, getting rid of the garbage and returning the clean water?


I've just joint SD today, and i would like to share the design of my tank as an idea for automated bottom cleaning for BB tank. Actually, this design is used for arowana tank, but with discus tank, it is good too. The flow of water from pump will sweep all waste from fish, food, etc to the hole which I drilled to make a outlet to the sumptank. If you have any question, please let me know :D.Thanks. That would definitely work! But the only problem is that I was trying to come up with a solution that would not require drilling your tank.

If you want to drill your tank, there is a WORLD of possibilities, and you have shared one. Thank you.

GlennR
01-14-2010, 12:01 AM
For the plumbing part how about an U/G plate (or something simular) used without gravel, and connected to whatever high volume filtered pump you choose? You could test it to see if reverse flow works better. Also you might try adding spacers to raise the U/G plate 1-2 inches higher than normal, to see if that increases performance.

To automate the filter cleaning somewhat perhaps you can plumb the filter in a "loop" so you can backflush it into a drain. This would only work if the pump was a seperate unit from the filter.

just 2 cents...

diskus24.de
01-14-2010, 12:19 AM
I may have a simple solution for what you are looking for. It's diy, cheap and non fancy and requires minimum effort to setup. It works very well for me and improves my water quality/clarity by a large degree without the need to change water every few days with the setup. In fact, I now only do 50% wc & clean the filter once every 2 weeks or so and my water is still very clear/clean, so are my tanks. In the photos, there are pvc setup on the right of the tank with top/bottom open. Water is coming in from the left side of the tank and going out through the top/bottom pvc mouth, effectively carrying away almost all the leftover/feces in a slow pace. The water is then filtered out and polished by a combo of mesh, sponge and sand in a wet/dry system, also a diy unit. Any questions? pls ask.

Hello,

this solution is the same i use in all my bb tanks to clean up. As said it works perfect. For automated filter cleaning and automated waterchanges i have a solution, described in Sub Category 'Filtering'.

My facility works fully automated that way, the only pleasure i have is feeding and watching discus :)

Regards Rudolf

yeutinh
02-03-2010, 12:46 AM
Thanks. That would definitely work! But the only problem is that I was trying to come up with a solution that would not require drilling your tank.

If you want to drill your tank, there is a WORLD of possibilities, and you have shared one. Thank you.
If you dont want to drill your tank, please use overflow tube. I will try to find some pics abt this.

Mxx
01-05-2011, 07:29 AM
I didn't see any details of the automated tank bottom cleaning method you'd implemented though, did you happen to post that anywhere? (Haven't gotten through all of your posts yet. Personally what I'd have attempted in that case is installing an additional piece of glass or two over the tank's bottom to create a slightly raised angled bottom. The lower edge could then drop off into a little trough running the length of the tank with an overhanging edge. A pipe or drilled hole at either end of this trough could blow in water at one end, and suck water out at the other. If the opening to the trough was relatively narrow and the current from the return was relatively strong, then the current from the return should be directed along the length of the trough (and partially contained by the overhanging edge. Any droppings and uneaten food would gradually (giving the discus time to eat fresh uneaten food from the bottom still), work it's way down the angled slope to fall into the trough opening where it should be whisked down the trough into the intake. The intake could then go to whatever filter you like, be it a canister filter with sponges which you could rinse out regularly, or into a netted chamber of a sump from which you could either lift out the net easily to dump out the waste if you wanted to take it out of the loop or use a large enough sponge to not clog too quickly. You'd of course lose part of the tank volume below the angled bottom parts so the tank would need to be sized appropriately to begin with, and the tank would need to be dry to fit such a system, but I thought that would be the best way to achieve it perhaps with a set-up starting afresh. I'm pondering myself what the optimal filtration system is as well, and if I'm not removing the solids manually and am letting them break down naturally, then I could still take them out of the loop by adding an ozonised protein skimmer I suppose, or the low-tech method of letting a fast-growing floating plant grow and then netting out half of it whenever necessary.

Rex82
01-06-2011, 07:28 AM
I may have a simple solution for what you are looking for. It's diy, cheap and non fancy and requires minimum effort to setup. It works very well for me and improves my water quality/clarity by a large degree without the need to change water every few days with the setup. In fact, I now only do 50% wc & clean the filter once every 2 weeks or so and my water is still very clear/clean, so are my tanks. In the photos, there are pvc setup on the right of the tank with top/bottom open. Water is coming in from the left side of the tank and going out through the top/bottom pvc mouth, effectively carrying away almost all the leftover/feces in a slow pace. The water is then filtered out and polished by a combo of mesh, sponge and sand in a wet/dry system, also a diy unit. Any questions? pls ask.

This into a filter sock on the return to the sump and rinse daily would be the option i would go with. although what i do now is quite similar anyways. Works great