How to Dose Flourish Excel

[rogge26]

It says on the Flourish Excel bottle to DIRECTIONS: On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 gallons*). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily or every other day. Dosing may be slowly increased in high-growth aquariums. For smaller dosing please note that each cap thread is approximately 1 mL.
How does this work if water gets changed as frequently as we do. I change 80% of my water every to every other day, because I am growing out juveniles. (I know it is easier in a bb tank, but I can not have anymore tanks and my tank was already planted so...). Does that mean I would have to add 1 capful of Flouirsh Excel for every 10 gallons every to every other day or would I just add the maintenance dose of 1 capful per 50 gallons and add the full dose of 1 capful per 10 gallons once a week or a combination of the above? I have a 50 gallon tank and do add C02 at a rate of 29 bubbles per minute. I look forward to any information I may recieve and let me know if more information is needed.

[rogge26]

Oh Yeah. This will probably be helpful. I have high light. 216 watts of light in a fifty gallon tank. In addition to Flourish Excel, I also am going to start dosing Flourish, Flourish Trace, Flourish Iron, Flourish Potassium, and Flourish Phosporous according to the dosing schedule on Seachems dosing schedule except for Flourish which I will dose with every water change.

[GrillMaster]

rogge....Yer gonna be in a world of hurt here in short order with what you have just described!! :(

You talking about all these flourish products has me a lil worried to be quite frank! With all the chemicals your fixin to throw in this 50G tank, where do the discus fit in? Sounds like you are hell bent on growing a butt load of plants instead of discus. With 4wpg over that 50G of yours, yer gonna need an EI dosing regime, and a whole hella of alot of plants to dose!! With that lighting, you will need to pack your tank full of plants and dose accordingly.

Now this bein a Discus forum...Do you think thats fair for the discus?

[rogge26]

rogge....Yer gonna be in a world of hurt here in short order with what you have just described!! :(

You talking about all these flourish products has me a lil worried to be quite frank! With all the chemicals your fixin to throw in this 50G tank, where do the discus fit in? Sounds like you are hell bent on growing a butt load of plants instead of discus. With 4wpg over that 50G of yours, yer gonna need an EI dosing regime, and a whole hella of alot of plants to dose!! With that lighting, you will need to pack your tank full of plants and dose accordingly.

Now this bein a Discus forum...Do you think thats fair for the discus?

Then what would you suggest?

[rogge26]

I have not started the dosing schedule mentioned. Right now all I am dosing is Flourish and CO2. I was going to wait and see what people think before I added any other products. I will change my dosing schedule and what ever else to whatever people think is best. However, I am hesitant to change my light. I paid a lot of money for it.

[Apistomaster]

I would stick with only timed release substrate fertilizers and skip all those SeaChem goodies. You just end up flushing those down the drain literally and enough fertilizers from the substrate will replenish the water column plus your CO2 to make your garden grow fine with fewer headaches.
I go with the KISS methods every time. It also goes against my grain to add chemicals that I am going to remove with every water change. I would allow for some floating plants to use up some of that light and give the discus some shade.

[rogge26]

I would stick with only timed release substrate fertilizers and skip all those SeaChem goodies. You just end up flushing those down the drain literally and enough fertilizers from the substrate will replenish the water column plus your CO2 to make your garden grow fine with fewer headaches.
I go with the KISS methods every time. It also goes against my grain to add chemicals that I am going to remove with every water change. I would allow for some floating plants to use up some of that light and give the discus some shade.

Thanks Larry. I will follow your advice. Do you know of a good timed release substrate fertilizer? Right now I have aquariumplants.com's own total substrate fertilizer. The link is http://www.aquariumplants.com/AquariumPlants_com_s_own_SUBSTRATE_VITALIZATION_p/fert.htm

The reason why I was going to add all those seachem products is that the tests I did which were for iron and phospate. There was none of neither of them in my water column even with the addition of Flourish which led me to believe that there is no nutrients for the plants to survive. Only two kinds of plants are doing well. The rest are turning black, even my swords.

[rogge26]

Not to be disagreeable or disrespectful, but for my own information. Why is the addition of fertilizers bad for my discus? Aren't fertilizers organic not chemical? Lots of people use seachem fertilizers and have no problems. Why would using various seachem fertilizers hurt my discus?

[Apistomaster]

If aquarium plant fertilizers are dosed correctly and you monitor the levels to be sure the uptake by the plants is in equilibrium with the needs of the plants, then they are not harmful to discus to the best of my knowledge. Any chemicals present in the excess are undesirable regardless of why or how they got there.

Most Discus kept are domesticated forms which are much more adaptable than wild discus. They are going to be happy in most any clean warm water that is suitable for most other SA tropical aquarium fish. Like most other domesticated animals, these discus are very easily pleased. The aquatic garden makes a lovely setting for discus displays but is not biotopically accurate. Normally., a healthy planted tank is suitable for Discus even if it is not necessarily needed.

Wild discus typically inhabit nutrient and mineral poor waters that support few if any true aquatic plants. Their habitat structure is more likely to consist of dead wood or flooded jungle during the rainy season which coincides with their spawning season. They will be at their best when their aquarium water chemistry is similar to their native waters. Not many aquarists are happy with aquariums decorated only with dead wood. A few purist do provide these conditions but the majority strike a balance between the barren and planted design.

I just removed all the overgrowth of Ludwigia, Large Amazon Swords and a few Kleiner Bar Sword plants. The stuff just sneaks up on me until one day, I realized I couldn't see the discus for the trees, so to speak. I like a touch of green, too, so I just finished tying Java Moss to the wood and left a few pieces of floating Hornwort and Najas sp to provide shaded areas. I am only using about 1/3 the intensity of light you are. Due to the sparse plant growth, my display tank would become a mass of algae in no time under your lights.

[rogge26]

If aquarium plant fertilizers are dosed correctly and you monitor the levels to be sure the uptake by the plants is in equilibrium with the needs of the plants, then they are not harmful to discus to the best of my knowledge. Any chemicals present in the excess are undesirable regardless of why or how they got there.

Most Discus kept are domesticated forms which are much more adaptable than wild discus. They are going to be happy in most any clean warm water that is suitable for most other SA tropical aquarium fish. Like most other domesticated animals, these discus are very easily pleased. The aquatic garden makes a lovely setting for discus displays but is not biotopically accurate. Normally., a healthy planted tank is suitable for Discus even if it is not necessarily needed.

Wild discus typically inhabit nutrient and mineral poor waters that support few if any true aquatic plants. Their habitat structure is more likely to consist of dead wood or flooded jungle during the rainy season which coincides with their spawning season. They will be at their best when their aquarium water chemistry is similar to their native waters. Not many aquarists are happy with aquariums decorated only with dead wood. A few purist do provide these conditions but the majority strike a balance between the barren and planted design.

I just removed all the overgrowth of Ludwigia, Large Amazon Swords and a few Kleiner Bar Sword plants. The stuff just sneaks up on me until one day, I realized I couldn't see the discus for the trees, so to speak. I like a touch of green, too, so I just finished tying Java Moss to the wood and left a few pieces of floating Hornwort and Najas sp to provide shaded areas. I am only using about 1/3 the intensity of light you are. Due to the sparse plant growth, my display tank would become a mass of algae in no time under your lights.

Thank you Larry! That was what I was looking for. Your answer was very complete and informative. Now I understand. I will find the balance between discus and plants. I keep taller plants in back. They provide shaded areas for the Discus. I plant short plants in fromt so they can take up some of the light and nutrients and the fish still have plenty of room to swim around. I will remember to keep my plants properly pruned so the discus can be seen. I am obviously new to plants, but I will strive to find the balance. Thanks again for such a complete answer to my question.

[Apistomaster]

You are welcome. I hope I helped a little.
My only discus display tank contains wild Heckel Discus and they are perfectly happy with just the wood but Java moss at least lets me enjoy some greenery.

[tacks]

Hi Larry has hit the nail on the head when he says you need balance. I am a plant person by heart but in my 150 I do have wilds and I know this goes against mostof the people here but I have given plenty of room for the wilds and I keep it under stocked only 4 (do too my errors I lost 3), My discus seem fine and my plant growth is great. I use a lot of plant tabs and try not to put to much in the water column. As for Excel you need to be careful here as it can hurt your discus. With that many water changes you should not have to much algae. With all that lighting you will need some floating plants. HTH Ed

[GrillMaster]

:)Although Larry's advice is sound, having 4 wpg over a 50G tank is going to give you a lesson on algae in short order!! I promise...

The fact that you have never done a planted tank, much less a Discus tank, will have you giving up both hobbies pretty quick. The algae is going to make ya sick I am afraid!

My advice to you would be master Discus first then master the planted tank or vice versa. Trying to do both as a beginner is going to be a catrastophe for you from what I have read. :(

I spent 4 years learning the planted tank. I spent the same amount of time reading up on the proper care of Discus. Ultimately I combined the two. Today I feel compelled to do whatever makes the Discus happy. :D :D :D

You might want to look into doing the same...

[Wahter]

The reason why I was going to add all those seachem products is that the tests I did which were for iron and phospate. There was none of neither of them in my water column even with the addition of Flourish which led me to believe that there is no nutrients for the plants to survive. Only two kinds of plants are doing well. The rest are turning black, even my swords.

Iron is usually chelated for plants and even if you test for it, it may not show up on the tests. Else, people would be throwing in old rusty nails to keep their plants growing well (don't do that; that's even worse than throwing in fingernail clippings as a source for calcium).

What I would suggest you do is first find some people who are growing aquatic plants in your area and see what they are doing. Where did you get the idea for 216 watts of light? Having that much light will work great IF you have everything else balanced out, but if you have too much light and your limiting your plants in one area (such as Potassium), your plants still won't grow well and you might end up with tons of algae instead. Not to mention your electric bill.

I'd start with 2-3 watts of light, carefully add CO2 and monitor the ppm of CO2, the pH, and see how the plants are growing first. Definitely don't assume massive amounts of light and fertilizer will always result in great plant growth. Besides, having a lot of plant growth is less space for the discus to swim around in and you'll have to prune often - like taking out lots every week or two. I'd rather spend my time doing something else than standing over a tank on weekends trimming plants for a couple of hours.

Here's a 50 gallon tank I had setup about a year ago. It has a 96 watt CF light and an additional 50 watts of standard fluorescent lighting.

Just some ideas.



Walter

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=36692&d=1216946792

[Blackwater Aquaria]

It says on the Flourish Excel bottle to DIRECTIONS: On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 gallons*). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily or every other day. Dosing may be slowly increased in high-growth aquariums. For smaller dosing please note that each cap thread is approximately 1 mL.
How does this work if water gets changed as frequently as we do. I change 80% of my water every to every other day, because I am growing out juveniles. (I know it is easier in a bb tank, but I can not have anymore tanks and my tank was already planted so...). Does that mean I would have to add 1 capful of Flouirsh Excel for every 10 gallons every to every other day or would I just add the maintenance dose of 1 capful per 50 gallons and add the full dose of 1 capful per 10 gallons once a week or a combination of the above? I have a 50 gallon tank and do add C02 at a rate of 29 bubbles per minute. I look forward to any information I may recieve and let me know if more information is needed. I think I can help you out here. I did just what you have with the flouirsh products. I have had some very good luck with Ocean Nutritions Giovannis Trace + and Fertil + you can add a daily dose or a weekly dose I tryed both I find by the weekly dose is better than the daily I also use Flouirsh Iorn Excel and leaf zone every outher week after a 50% water change. I also dose CO2 I have the cellnoid on the same timer as the lights. As far as water changes my planted tanks all have Discus that are just about grown out so I dont need to feed so much and less water changes. I also have 2.5 to 3.0 watts per gal with Coralife freshwater twin bulbs. I hope this info will help you out. Good luck Mike D. BWA:bandana:

[GrillMaster]

Mike...He has over 4 wpg on his 50g tank...He is dosing probably a third of what he should be dosing of Co2. Should be prolly 2 bps...

OK I will bite...Cut yer lighting in half. Have 2watts on 10 hours. Up the C02 to about 2bbs... Feed em like ya want em to get fat! Dose a lil iron, PO4. and N03. If ya have the plants...This will work for ya! If ya dont have the plants, algae will set in...;)

[rogge26]

I would like to start by thanking you all for the wonderful advice! Is is nice to see so many people care so much about my discus, my plants and my success. This really is a wonderful community.

Tacks I have domestics in my tank. They should be a little less sensitive than wilds. I do normally change 80% of the water per day. I will be careful with Excel. I use the beginner (minimum dose) with every product. I realize I am no professional. I try to keep things as simple as possible. The reason fro fertilization is because I change the water so much there is not much nutrients in it. I have tested for iron, chelated iron and phospate. They all read 0. I will look into some floating plants. Do you have any suggestions on any attractive floating plants that will work well in my particular situation?

Bastalker I appreciate your concern, but I have too much money invested in plants, lighting, a CO2 system, fertilizers, etc. to back out now. If I would have known then what I do now I definitely would have done what you suggest. I also have met my water limit in my apartment so starting a new tank is, unfortunately, not an option. All I can do now is research and learn as much as I can in short order. What I do have going for me, however, is that I am determined, motivated and a quick learner. I have never not accomplished what I set my mind to. There is first time for everything though. You can rest assured that I care for my discus very much and if it come to my plants and my discus all my plants will be introduced to the trash can at the first sign of my discus being distressed. So far though, they are doing great. Their fins are erect, showing good color and are growing out nicely.
I will slowly raise and monitor my CO2. I am hesitant to raise it too much all at once. While it is difficult or impossible to kill one's fish with too much light and the factory reccomended amount of fertilization, it is much easier to kill one's fish with too much CO2. How much would you suggest I raise my
CO2 per day? Do you know of a good CO2 test kit? I have one, but I question its accuracy. What is the best way to raise my KH if needed ( preferably a way to raise KH without raising PH too much)? My KH is barely 3 degrees out of the tap. I believe I read that the KH is supposed to be at least 3 degrees before adding any CO2 so I am hesitant to add too much CO2 until I am confident I have a high enough KH to do so.

Walter I will try to find people growing aquatic plants in my area, but, to be honest, there are not many. I did test for Iron and chelated iron and they both tested 0. I got the idea for 216 watts of light when I started to grow red plants, shorter foreground plants and Riccia. I read they grow best under at least three watts of light. My 50 gallon is 48" long. Most 48" lights are for bigger tanks so I had a choice of too little or too much light. I looked for a light that would give me 3 watts per gallon, but the lights I found were either just over 2 or just over 4 watts per gallon. I did have just over 2 watts of light per gallon and my red plants and my foreground plants did not do well. So I opted for the 216 watt light. I figured I could always remove bulbs if needed. I can add potassium to my tank if needed. I already have the correct fertilizer to do so. I only have the one tank so my electric bill is not an issue. I will slowly raise and monitor CO2 ppm and PH. It will be easy to monitor PH. I have a Milwaukee PH controller which shows me my PH and turns off my CO2 when my PH reaches a preset number. Do you know of a good test kit for CO2? I have one, but I am not sure of its accuracy. What is the best way to raise KH if needed (Preferably without raising PH too much)? My KH out of the tap is barely 3 degrees. As of right now, the back i heavily planted, but the front is substrate and low growing plants like dwarf grass. Right now the discus have plenty of room to swim and I will not let that change. BTW, your 50 gallon looked awsome!

Black Water Aquaria I will measure my iron and chelated iron and dose accordingly. I will add trace elements on a weekly basis as you mentioned. I also have my C02 on the same timer as my lights. I do still have juveniles and feed them 6 times per day so doing fewer water changes is not an option, however, I look forward to the day when they are mostly grown and I can do less water changes.

[tacks]

Hi Rogge listen nothing is easy in this hobby. Planted tanks are hard and discus are not easy. I would try and reduce your lighing for now, I would increase my co2( get a drop checker) it will tell you if you have a safe amount of co2 in your tank. Get some stem plants they grow fast and will help use up nutrients so algae cant. Put fert tabs in your gravel near the plants. As for floating plants go to Aquabid the plant section under floating plants. Try a site called Plant Geek or Planted Tank these are great plant forums. Hope this will help you get going. It takes time. Ed

[rogge26]

Hi Rogge listen nothing is easy in this hobby. Planted tanks are hard and discus are not easy. I would try and reduce your lighing for now, I would increase my co2( get a drop checker) it will tell you if you have a safe amount of co2 in your tank. Get some stem plants they grow fast and will help use up nutrients so algae cant. Put fert tabs in your gravel near the plants. As for floating plants go to Aquabid the plant section under floating plants. Try a site called Plant Geek or Planted Tank these are great plant forums. Hope this will help you get going. It takes time. Ed
When I do finally get everything going right, it is going to be thanks to people on this forum. I can not believe how helpful everyone is.
I already have a drop checker, but it keeps saying I have enough CO2 when I have 30 bubbles per minute. I am thinking there is no way that can be true, although, that was before I added my new light. It could be different now. I will test it again. It is one of those drop checkers that you leave in you aquarium for days so you have a constant idea about where your CO2 is at. It does not give a ppm. It has three colors yellow, green and a lighter green. Do you know of one that is more accurate? Preferable one that will give resuts in ppm? What are some good stem plants you would reccomend? I already have some fast growing stem plants; swords and various other stem plants. I will check out the sites you mentioned and get some floating plants. I have Riccia, but I do not think I would like that floating in my tank. It looks much better submerged and I know it would clog my filter.

[tacks]

Hi first swords are not really stem plants. Second if yo know your PH and KH you can go to a site called Chucks Planted Acquarium you willfind a place to use your PH and KH to find out your co2 ppm. There are also many articles there to help you. thanks Ed

[Wahter]

Here's the chart that Ed is referring to:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

HTH,


Walter

[rogge26]

Here's the chart that Ed is referring to:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

HTH,


Walter

Thank you Walter and Tacks. You both have been very helpful. I went to the webpage and entered my values into the chart. My KH is pretty low right out of the tap so with my PH and KH, my target PH should be 6.4. I have a PH monitor that controls my CO2 system so this will not be hard to maintain. I will adjust my bubble count until I reach my target PH. CO2 problem solved. Thank you so much for your very valuable advice.

[rogge26]

I took everyone's advice and purchased some stem and some floating plants. The stem plant I chose is Ludwigia Repens. After researching various stem plants, I decided this is the best plant for my application. The floating plant I chose is Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum). I believe these two plants together will use much of the light and absorb any extra nutrients in the water column. Thanks everyone for all your help and let me know if anyone sees a problem with any of my plant choices or has anymore advice to offer me.