How do you get new water into your tank?

[scolley]

I've been tinkering with all sorts of automated water change systems for a few years now. As a result of that, I've been toying with the idea of marketing a tool for automating water changes. Yes - I know - there are other things out there to do that. I've studied them all. If I market this, it will raise the bar.

But I need a bit of more information first.

I know anyone can answer this poll, but it is those people that would consider installing an automated water change system that I am most interested in hearing from. If you vote, but you have no interest in such, please let me know. But please do respond if you might consider such a system, or have one already.

And I am particularly interested in hearing from people that have multiple tanks.

Thanks!

[scolley]

Wow. Zero response.... Maybe I need to start another poll? ;)

1) I would never consider an automatic water changes system.
2) I would consider an automatic water change system, but I'd never respond to a poll about my plumbing.
3) I don't even know what you are talking about.
4) I don't like how you've asked the questions.
5) I don't care.

I'd not start such a poll of course, but it's looking like I should have. One way or another, I'm asking a question that gets zero response. I'ld love to hear why if you don't mind posting it.

Thanks.

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2:I am! I am! I am! Scolley...would love to have it to install in my tanks..the layout of my tanks may neccesitate more than one, maybe...but I'd sure like it for my discus tanks, lol.....you had questions??

Dottie ;)

[scolley]

Wow. Zero response.... Maybe I need to start another poll? ;)What a bone-head I am! I didn't vote because it's my own poll, so every time I look I don't see the results - just the question. So I assumed there were no responses when there were several!

Thanks folks. I promise I'm better at automation and drain/fill than I am at forum polls. :o



Thanks korbi_doc!

[pcsb23]

2) I would consider an automatic water change system, but I'd never respond to a poll about my plumbing.:jester:


What I'd like is an automated way of wiping down etc.....I am looking at automating at least some aspects of the water change cycle - my water is metered and therefore expensive if I went for a continual flow system so it has to be drain/refill. Anything that takes some strain away and saves time is good.

[scolley]

Thanks for the suggestion Paul. And I am working on something that would do bottom cleaning (hoovering) on a bare bottom tank - as an option to this process. But I'm afraid that automated wiping of surfaces will have to be left to someone far more clever than I.

But hey, if you can eliminate the huge chunk of work, that's progress, even it if some drudgery still remains.

Thanks. :D

PS - A continual flow system never even crossed my mind. Too primitive, wasteful, and inefficient. I do not believe that simple is always better, and the ease with which I maintain my own discus tank is living proof. Thanks for that bit if direction.

[scolley]

I'm getting a number of "others" here?

What is "other"? What did I leave out?

Thanks.

[korbi_doc]

I'm getting a number of "others" here?

What is "other"? What did I leave out?

Thanks.

Betcha it's "carry by bucket" !! or bail it in??? lol....

Dottie ;)

[DiscusDude85]

Betcha it's "carry by bucket" !! or bail it in??? lol....

Dottie ;)

In the same boat.....A 5 gallon bucket is how i move my water around.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Im currently in the works in planning/plumbing my 300 gallon tank for auto w/c's. The plan is pretty much fixed, but im up for anything that you may have ideas with.

-Ryan

[packerkid]

My way of doing it? Water (R.O with constant ratio of tap/ro) in a 35 gallon bin, then i use something amazing called a pump =)

Which moves the water from porch to tank without worries of the bucket...

It isn't automated but lifting a light tube instead of a bucket is soo much nicer =)

[scolley]

Bucket! Wow, should have thought of that. I started out with a bucket.

Man, that was a PITA. I was always sloshing water and making the wife very unhappy. :o

Thanks for sharing folks. This is exactly the info I was looking for.

[rowedder]

WOW! this threads for me... lol
Scolley, we need to talk lol. I have my system on 14 tanks.

[DiscusDude85]

Bucket! Wow, should have thought of that. I started out with a bucket.

Man, that was a PITA. I was always sloshing water and making the wife very unhappy. :o

Thanks for sharing folks. This is exactly the info I was looking for.



My wife gets mad at me too, heat my water in the laundry room, And to get to my tank i have to go through the kitchen, This means drops of water on the floor, And when i dump my water it goes right to the toilet and more drops of water, Old school will have to do till i get out of this appartment.


Joe

[dan3949]

I am somewhat puzzled about the comment concerning continuos drip systems with a tank overflow to maintain tank water level. It is my understanding that many (maybe most) commercial setups utilize a continual drip that results in a 20-50% daily WC. I have been running this setup for a couple of months on my new discus tank (125 gal). It is incredibly simple, inexpensive, and close to bullet-proof. It is zero effort, zero moving parts, results in no rapid changes to water conditions, easily adjusted to any WC% you want. I am surprised that more people don't use these for discus tanks.

Yes, you must vacuum the bottom X times a week to remove crud in addition to a drip system.

Yes, it requires more water to get the same dilution as a batch water change. But, water is cheap (my overflow waters my yard). And it is zero stress on your fish. Simply adjust the drip rate to stay below your target nitrate concentration. I keep my level at about 5 ppm. For my current bioload, I run about 20% daily WC on my drip system. I did not notice any significant change to my monthly water bill.

I am fortunate to have excellent waster out of the tap. No chloramines, about 80 ppm TDS, and a pH of 7.2. Thus, I simply run straight from the tap, through a carbon filter, through a metering valve, into my tank. Since the flow is low (1 gph), my aqauarium heaters keep the tank at constant temp. If you had to precondition your water, it would complicate the setup. But still pretty simple.

[scolley]

I am somewhat puzzled about the comment concerning continuos drip systems with a tank overflow to maintain tank water level. It is my understanding that many (maybe most) commercial setups utilize a continual drip that results in a 20-50% daily WC...

But, water is cheap...

I am fortunate to have excellent waster out of the tap...

As well noted, continuous drip is a wonderful method if your water is cheap, and usable right out of the tap. It's also so easy to set up. Easy enough that I'm not sure it merits any work to create a "solution". I think one thread explaining how to do it would pretty much address that need. It should be very easy to set up for most people.

It has the huge advantages of eliminating any aging tanks, eliminating lots of extra pluming, and being (potentially) significantly cheaper to set up. And the fish don't even know it's happening, as you say.

But water is not cheap for everyone. And it is not plentiful everywhere. Most of the Asian breeders that use it are in areas where water in nearly free. In fact, to a very large extent, breeding discus has follow two economic factors - cheap water and low heating requirements. If you live in a warm country with bountiful, cheap water, it's a great place to raise discus.

Water is certainly not cheap for me. And goodness knows heating water is not cheap for me. And continuous drip is hugely water wasteful, and (if you live in a cooler climate) heat wasteful, because you have to cycle many times the volume that you desire to change to effect that change.

So I'm going to tackle the "water replacement" problem for people that can't afford to turn over so much water and heat.

It would be nice if someone else started a really informative thread on continuous-drip systems for people in areas that can use those.

[ralphtran]

I use a continous non-recirculatory drip system on 75% of my tanks (2gph). I use well water that is relatively soft. The water goes through a temperature regulator that automatically mixes the water to a pre-determined temperature (84F).

My problem so far has been tanks that I can not drill (temperated glass). I'm not quite sure what to do for those (any suggestions??). I guess I could use over-flow boxes that hang on the front?

[scolley]

Any high quality overflow - that will not lose its siphon (!) - like one of these (http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html) should do.

[ralphtran]

Any high quality overflow - that will not lose its siphon (!) - like one of these (http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html) should do.

Thanks. i use similar overflow boxes for my reeftanks. For some reason I never thought of using them on the freshwater tanks I couldn't drill until this morning :)

[pcsb23]

But, water is cheap (my overflow waters my yard).Not in the UK my friend, water is expensive here, it costs me £86 month for water. That is over $100 a month!!!:mad:

[Cosmo]

Ok, I voted for water pumped into the tank with an electric pump, but there wasn't an option to say how I turned it off :confused::confused:

Soooo... for the record, I have a float controlled solenoid switch wired in series with the on/off switch for the pump. When the float floats, it turns off the pump.

Works quite nicely :D

[scolley]

Thanks Cosmo. But I'm missing what the solenoid is for... you are using a float switch to turn off the pump. And I assume the solenoid is not used to prevent back flow, because a nice check valve should be much cheaper.

So where does your solenoid come into your fill process?

[davejep]

The water goes through a temperature regulator that automatically mixes the water to a pre-determined temperature (84F).


Any chance you could elaborate on which product you used, maybe a part # or picture. Been thinking of going this route but no luck finding the right thing

[William-LIC]

i know this thread is old and the last post was made almost a year ago but i wanted to ask about a previous comment.
It was said that a drip system with an over flow was very inefficient and wasteful.
If i have a 45 gallon tank and do a 50% WC each day(using a hose and a bucket) how would that be any different in the amount of water used per day or the amount of nitrate build up in the tank compared to a drip of 1 gallon per hour?
Other than 50% = 22.5 gallons and the drip being 24 gallons.
It seems to me the water use is the same and the nitrate buildup would be the same but the level would be constant as opposed to a build up over 24 hours then a 50% drop and then repeat.

Any one have thoughts?

[Moon]

Any chance you could elaborate on which product you used, maybe a part # or picture. Been thinking of going this route but no luck finding the right thing

I am thinking of doing the same and would like some info on the "temprature regulator"

[DiscusOnly]

Other than 50% = 22.5 gallons and the drip being 24 gallons.


You are forgetting that when you drip, you are draining away new water that is mixed with the old. Not sure how accurate this calculator is but you get the idea.

http://http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php

[William-LIC]

true...
calculator link doesn't work for me today.
seems to me that the 50% change once per day would reduce the maxumum nitrate buildup (say 10 ppm) to 5 ppm, then it would slowly go back to 10 ppm.
I think that would make the average 7.5.
The drip system would start at 10 ppm and it would take awhile to reach its final stable level. I think this level would be 7.5.. but i'm not a mathematician.

So if i'm correct (IF) then the level of nitrate buildup is the same, the amount of water use is the same, and i see drip - overflow as having stable water conditions, PH, nitrates, and so on. and it doesn't require lifting buckets. Also the aquarium heater could mantain a stable temp even with 1 gallon per hour of cold water being added.

[tcyiu]

So if i'm correct (IF) ... the amount of water use is the same ....

Let's compare the two scenarios using some made up numbers. let's say I have a 10 gallon tank:

Case 1: Simple water change
Every day, I remove 1 gal of old water, and then add 1 gal of new. 10% change.

Case 2: Continuous drip.
The overflow removes 1 gal of water every day. The drip system adds 1 gal of water every day. So far it looks the same.

But when the overflow removes the 1 gallon from the tank, part of that is the new water coming in. Without doing the complicated calculus, only 90% (approximately) of the outgoing water is old water. Versus 100% in Case 1. This is where the waste comes in.

So to sum up this scenario here, for every gallon of new water you add, roughly 10% of that new water goes straight down the drain. The percentage of waste will be different for different setups.

In California where we have water wars, throwing good water down the drain is a bad idea. However, if the outgoing water goes to drip irrigation of your garden, this might not be a bad idea.

[Hattawi]

Imagine a system where there is a machine that will filter the water accross a semi-permeable membrane (like R/O systems), will return the good filtered water to the tank and will discard concentrated water with waste (NH3, NO2, No3 etc..). For the other good electrolytes (phosphate, Mg etc..) they can added back with the good, new water or can be kept constant against a certain concentration that can be kept on the other side of the R/O membrane. This concept is exactly like dialysis machines used for kidney failure patients to replace the function of the kidneys.

That would be the most effecient water saving system, and it will give you really clean water back.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Imagine a system where there is a machine that will filter the water accross a semi-permeable membrane (like R/O systems), will return the good filtered water to the tank and will discard concentrated water with waste (NH3, NO2, No3 etc..). For the other good electrolytes (phosphate, Mg etc..) they can added back with the good, new water or can be kept constant against a certain concentration that can be kept on the other side of the R/O membrane. This concept is exactly like dialysis machines used for kidney failure patients to replace the function of the kidneys.

That would be the most effecient water saving system, and it will give you really clean water back.

Such a system exists....Google: Dialyseas. It is geared for reef systems, but it does exactly as you described.

-Ryan

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Dialyseas link: http://www.seavisions.com/prod02.htm

-Ryan

[Ed13]

A tank using the Dialyseas
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php

[scolley]

A tank using the Dialyseas
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php
I went and buried myself in that article Ed. WOW!

That guy has a masterpiece on his hands. From beautiful composition, extraordinary degree of removal of equipment from view, to tremendous time-savings through automation - I am thrilled to see that. :D Thanks for the link!

And I am happy to say, hands-down, that to this day... that is one of the very finest tanks and setup I've ever seen. Paul Brun is to be congratulated, and IMO earns a spots in the pantheon of truly great tanks. :thumbsup:

[salth20]

Ditto scolley. Reef tanks have always been a passion of mine. I've seen many, from the National Aquarium in Baltimore, the Boston Aquarium, the Tennessee Aquarium in Chattanooga, Shedd in Chicago, to displays in stores.. That Fish Place, Now Playing with Fish, A Fishy Deal... the list could go on forever after 40 years. Mr. Brun has a tank that is simply a benchmark. Simulating the ocean is difficult work.. even on a good day, mom nature sometimes fails. Almost speechless... but I can manage WOW!