What went wrong?

[FishyAmor]

Hi All,

This is not the way I wanted to intoduce myself, but here's my story. I've been fishkeeping for a number of years not and recently got into Discus (1 weeks ago).

I rescaped my 26G into a BB with only a Anabius on driftwood and added 3 discus's approx 2-3.5in last weekend (after 50% wc). I tested ph and all was fine at 7ph, the tank's been up and running close to a year now and I assumed ammonia/nitrate/nitrite was fine.

I did a 70% WC on Thursday and another 70% on Friday night. all looked fine till Sat morning when I woke to find 2 discus at top of tank with what looked like some heavy brething and the 3.5in and SAE dead?:confused:

I immediately tested the water and this revealed some shocking results:

ph: 6.2
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrate: 7ppm
Nitrite: 50ppm

What the? It appears that the extensive wc caused the tank to go into a recycle? I've never had Nitrite readings in a cycled tank and this can be my only conclusion.

Anyways I added a ph buffer and airstone immediately to try to get this up and it went up to 6.6, then i went to the local fish shop to try and get some answers.

I was advise to add a product by the name of STABILITY by Seacham which was meant to boost the benificial bacteria and this seemed to have stabalised the parameters somewhat when I tested on Sunday morning:

Ph: 7.2
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm

All appears to be ok for now, but i'm left rater confused as reading other posts in this forum seem to suggest daily wc in excess of 40%...

Please help!

[ShinShin]

Its hard to say what went wrong. You assumed certain parameters before the incident, and then took readings afterwards. There is nothing to compare here. The high ammonia afterwards could have been caused by the dead fish. I can't exlain a high nitrite reading at this point.

Large water changes will not increase the bad parameters you gave us. I am an advocate of large water changes as well.

Mat

[mikel]

Did you use any form of de-chlor for your big water changes? i know that Chlorine and chlorimine will kill off good nitrifying bacteria....so you may have done that if you were not careful. mike

[Eddie]

Sorry to here about your loss. Stability is an awesome product, works like a champ and I've used it plenty. I couldn't really recommend any professional advice as I am not a Discus Guru. Maybe just do the stability cycle as directed on the bottle and then start with some smaller WC's and work your way up to the amount of water you'd like to change. Again, I'm no pro but it does seem like your bioload was affected from the addition of the fish or the water that you added to the tank. What type of water do you use for WCs? Do you use a water conditioner?

Just my 2 cents
Eddie

[FishyAmor]

Did you use any form of de-chlor for your big water changes? i know that Chlorine and chlorimine will kill off good nitrifying bacteria....so you may have done that if you were not careful. mike

Mike, yes I was advised by the lfs to use API Stresscoat, i've never used this before and it appears to have reduced the ph. Normally out of the tap is 7.2 and after dosing with stresscoat it dropped to mid 6's. This addetive is also meant to dechlorinate...

[FishyAmor]

Sorry to here about your loss. Stability is an awesome product, works like a champ and I've used it plenty. I couldn't really recommend any professional advice as I am not a Discus Guru. Maybe just do the stability cycle as directed on the bottle and then start with some smaller WC's and work your way up to the amount of water you'd like to change. Again, I'm no pro but it does seem like your bioload was affected from the addition of the fish or the water that you added to the tank. What type of water do you use for WCs? Do you use a water conditioner?

Just my 2 cents
Eddie

Hi Eddie,

Yeah I was thinking the same, as stability certainly has seemed to do the job. I will monitor water para's this week and start off with maybe 25% weekly wc. It's a real shame I tell ya as the discus I lost was certainly quite the character!:(

I'm currently using tap water (7.2ph) stored in a bin for atleast 24hrs (addetive include dechlorinator) with heater to get the right temp, which leads to another question: how long is too long? I mean is water thats stored for 4-5 days going to be harmful?

Cheers.

[bs6749]

1. You removed all of your biofilter when you went bare bottom.

2. You still have ammonia present which is unacceptable at any level.

3. Stop messing with your pH! A low pH is actually your friend right now as it will convert some of the ammonia into ammonium which isn't as harmful (if it is at all) to your discus.

4.You should dose with Seachem's Prime. It is a dechlorinator but it will neutralize ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and they won't be harmful to your fish and the bacteria will still be able to remove them from your tank. You will have to do PWC's to remove the nitrates or add more live plants. Fast growing plants remove more nitrates at a quicker rate. Also, even after you dose with Prime your test kits will still show the "presence" of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in the tank but if you dose adequately they will be in an unharmful state even though they are present according to the test kits.

5. Don't use stress coat. I tried it before with my discus and can tell you that they didn't like it.

6. Unless you did a 100% water change you should still be showing some sign of nitrites. They don't go down that fast and it takes about 4-6 weeks for the cycle to be complete.

[FishyAmor]

1. You removed all of your biofilter when you went bare bottom.

2. You still have ammonia present which is unacceptable at any level.

3. Stop messing with your pH! A low pH is actually your friend right now as it will convert some of the ammonia into ammonium which isn't as harmful (if it is at all) to your discus.

4.You should dose with Seachem's Prime. It is a dechlorinator but it will neutralize ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and they won't be harmful to your fish and the bacteria will still be able to remove them from your tank. You will have to do PWC's to remove the nitrates or add more live plants. Fast growing plants remove more nitrates at a quicker rate. Also, even after you dose with Prime your test kits will still show the "presence" of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in the tank but if you dose adequately they will be in an unharmful state even though they are present according to the test kits.

5. Don't use stress coat. I tried it before with my discus and can tell you that they didn't like it.

6. Unless you did a 100% water change you should still be showing some sign of nitrites. They don't go down that fast and it takes about 4-6 weeks for the cycle to be complete.


bs6749:

Firstly I should apologize for the confusion on my original post (which i have now amended). I got my reading the wrong way around, I actually had 0ppm Ammonia and 7ppm Nitrate.

As for the bio filter, I'm currently using Fluval 205 which has established bio media since tank has been running for some time now! I have some coral fragments in one of the compartments which is used to stabilize ph around 7.2.

I totally understand the cycling time-frame, but it is rather confusing that Nitrite levels have effectively zeroed overnight! I suggest maybe there was a mini cycle and parameters have stabilized some what? (will check all again tonight to confirm)

Duly noted on Stress coat use, any other input from forum members? as I am new to this product.

However, not really keen on any WC until I understand my water conditions.

Thanks again!

[Eddie]

Hey FA,

I don't think you can have water stored too long. I used stored water in the past. What is the PH in your stored water after a few days?

I also would advise in using Prime as BS recommended.

Eddie

PS Either way, ammonia or nitrite spike, your tank needs to get cycled. I'd continue with stability. Also, when you do start doing the large water changes, I'd add the maintenance dose of stability. I think it's like a cap a week or something like that.

[FishyAmor]

Hey FA,

I don't think you can have water stored too long. I used stored water in the past. What is the PH in your stored water after a few days?

I also would advise in using Prime as BS recommended.

Eddie

PS Either way, ammonia or nitrite spike, your tank needs to get cycled. I'd continue with stability. Also, when you do start doing the large water changes, I'd add the maintenance dose of stability. I think it's like a cap a week or something like that.

PH in stored water is usually around 6.5, how long is considered too long for water storage?

Currently using Aquaone to dechlorinate, will have to consider swithcing to Prime (does this affect PH)

Will continue to use stability...seems to do a good job.

Cheers!

[Eddie]

FA,

Prime does not affect PH.

HTH,

Eddie

PS. I've had water stored for 2 weeks and used it. Aside from that, can't tell you. Maybe somebody else can help you with that. If anything, just throw the water and fill the tub the day prior to changing. You just got to make sure the PH of the stored water is the same as in the tank. It's crucial!

[FishyAmor]

Hi All,

Firstly, THANK YOU for all your input...been invaluable to a first time Discus owner.

Tested water last night and here's the UPDATE on the para's:

PH: 7.2
Ammonia:0ppm
Nitrite:0ppm
Nitrate:8ppm

All looks fine now and discus seem to be eating fine (mainly Tetra bits/blood worms), although they are still shy when I approach to feed.

As stated above the tank is 26G and was thinking of increasing stocking to say about 5-6, currently there are 2 x 2". I'm hopeing the additions will help make them less "skittish".

My only concern apart from the obvious bioload (hopefully kept in check with regular WC's) is the level of growth I can achieve in this confined setup.

I have a 65G I can move them into eventually, however this is currently being occupied.

Cheers.

[Don Trinko]

Water storage: I try to use mine in 4 to5 days. Eventualy it will develop a slime because of bacteria. ( all the clorine is gone in a day or 2)
Have you checked your KH? If kh is low ( less than 3 or 4?) you can get ph crash.
Make sure your tap does not have cloramines. Some of the "declor" type chems do not remove cloramines.
I keep a bottle of Amaquil+ around for "mini cycles" It will remove ammonia and nitrites also. ( doesn't realy remove them but chemicaly binds them)
Good Luck Don T.