Heckels bred on a commercial scale?

[illumnae]

There's someone on a local Singaporean forum making bold claims that the heckel shipments we have started to receive are actually farm bred heckels and not from the wild. He has claimed that heckels are being bred on a commercial scale in Malaysia and possibly other parts of the world. He has also claimed that there's a Penang farm that has been doing so for many years now such that it is no longer a trade secret.

Anyone heard of all this before? Last I heard, Heiko had said that only a handful of people have managed to breed heckels, and certainly not to the magnitude that this guy is claiming.

I'm unsure if he has an agenda against our local importer/LFSs or if he genuinely believes his claims.

[wgtaylor]

4 and 5 inch wild heckels are being sold for $35 and up, retail price. Anyone lucky enough to figure out how to breed heckels on a commercial scale would have a corner on the market and demand rather high prices for those discus. Preposterous to think there is any truth to that story. Bill

[Eddie]

Still waiting to see pictures of Heckel Fry in somebody's tank :D

[TankWatcher]

4 and 5 inch wild heckels are being sold for $35 and up, retail price. A bargain. I paid $200 each for wild heckels a bit smaller than that (in OZ)

[Eddie]

I got mine for $50 :D

[TankWatcher]

:cry: :angry: :( :mad:

[illumnae]

I got mine for S$40-S$50/piece for 3-3.5 inchers...conversion rate is about US$1 to S$1.50. But these are the alleged farmbred heckels ;)

[07 Maverick P51]

I heard from my LFS that in Southeast Asia they are breeding these Discus on a large commercial pond like system. The water come from a nearby river or stream, so they are constantly having a flow of river water into their pond and they never feed their Discus, instead they get their food from insects that land on the water and Mosquito Larvae that are in the pond. They are being raise naturally like in the wild.

[Eddie]

And I thought I got a deal! :(

[Ed13]

A picture is worth a thousand words! If he can't provide a few pics of heckels in the different growth stages and adults then it can't be trusted a 100%. I understand, if this is true, that he might want to protect his methods, but pics of the fish themselves should be a given;).
Maybe as Heiko has stated previously they are wild heckel crosses or heckel x domestic and not true 100% heckels.

On the other hand it's probably the correct location to achieve this. Knowledge of breeding discus, correct temp, close to their natural waters, live foods and a clear interest for discus goes a LONG way. Perhaps the pond farming system is the most likely to achieve this too.

I don't doubt it can be done it's just the situation described sounds dubious, but I'd def would love tank raised heckels:).

[plecocicho]

When they post me pictures of their ponds, underwater videos of parens caring for their fry i would start to believe it.

[Zulu]

When they post me pictures of their ponds, underwater videos of parens caring for their fry i would start to believe it.

I agree.

[Darren's Discus]

As everyone has said anyone can claim anything show the proof ! Their only fish it's not like their building weapons of mass distruction.I know one thing if i ever manage to breed mine,i would want to share my success and not go "it's a secret i'm not showing you" I was lucky enough to get my heckels for $90 aus.



cheers

[Apistomaster]

Hi illumnae,
Your new Heckels looked all the world like wild Brazilian caught Heckels to me.
No sound documentation and only a lfs owner's word just doesn't constitute acceptable evidence to me.
I wish it were true but I sincerely doubt it.

[manitu]

Still waiting to see pictures of Heckel Fry in somebody's tank :D

iam a lucky man then because i have a nhamunda heckel female that paired of with a semi royal tefe male the discus larva become free swimming then got eaten my cardinals and rams


i have got pics to proof that :D:D:D

[Eddie]

We are looking for Heckel Heckel pair manitu. :)

[manitu]

We are looking for Heckel Heckel pair manitu. :)

as you might know its the female that usualy doesnt breed in captivity

so to have a willing female is a big start!!:):)


regards

[plecocicho]

Manitu post pictures of those two anyway.

[Ed13]

When they post me pictures of their ponds, underwater videos of parens caring for their fry i would start to believe it.
If I was a commercial breeder there's no way I'd show pics of my setup or anything that could give away how I did it, I went to the trouble to achieve this why should I make it easy for my competition:confused:

But, you better beleive I'd be bragging about it all over the world, WITH PICS of fry to adults (anything that was marketable size really), even if it's just pics of the fish out of the water in buckets or nets.

As a hobbyst, home breeder, I'd definitely share:)

[ShinShin]

Heckels are being and have been being bred in Asia for years. I don't care what Larry, Heiko, or anyone else says. I have PERSONALLY seen a tankful of Asian bred Heckels in Portland, Oregon at an importer's house. Ray Kosaka sold Asain bred Heckels 10 years ago. Dennis Hardenburg bought some of these Heckels and spawned them and shared his experience right here on Simply. Yeng has pics in his 2nd book of them, and told me in personal correspondences that the reason no one is breeding them in large scale is that there is no market for them. It is a small group of people who would buy them, and it is not economically feasable to produce them. Most are being used by Asian breeders to cross breed, looking for new starins of domestic hybrids. One of the sponsors here offered them for sale not long ago. Not everyone likes Heckels. They find the 5th bar obtrusive, and are, quite frankly, the ugly "disckling" of the discus family. There is a store here in the Pacific Northwest that still has wild Heckels in their tanks from last season.

There was an article in FAMA a few volumes back that gave the name of a breeder who is currently producing them right now.

Mat

[Eddie]

Hey Mat,

I wasn't disapproving anyone but it would be really nice to see some young heckels in a tank.

Eddie

[illumnae]

Hi Mat, I don't think it's in dispute that Heckels have been bred...even Heiko has said that a handful of people have managed to breed them right? (I may be wrong, typing this from memory). However, there is a difference between a one-off (fluke?) spawn, and a commercial farm churning out heckels by the thousands. In the post I mentioned when I started the thread, the person seems to think that Heckels are rubberstamped out by countless farms in Malaysia.

My question was more of whether they are being bred on a commercial scale. From your post, it seems that you also think that they aren't being bred on a commercial scale?

Just curious though, the tank full of bred Asian heckels you saw...how did you know they were bred and not wild?

I think this thread is probably going to go down the way of the debate regarding altums...some are convinced that some Asian breeders are churning out altums in farms while others believe that only Linke has managed to breed larger quantities of altums. what is it about Asia that spawns all these rumours? :D

[Apistomaster]

Mat has his observations and the rest of us have ours and they are likely to remain worlds apart.
There are plenty of people who would gladly buy tank raised pure bred Heckels.
Mat is not much interested in any wild discus as far as I can tell except to say that Heckels are bred but no one wants them. Why do they bother breeding these Heckels we never see if it isn't worth their while?
That some wild Heckels aren't selling in a shop in the Puget Sound area is no surprise. More people are into African Cichlids and Reef fish in that market. No shop in that area ever had a well set up wild discus display tank with fish in good health during the 30 years I lived there.

[TankWatcher]

I would buy tank raised pure bred Heckels. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I have seen some gorgeous wild heckels swimming in other ppls tanks. With Asia so close to OZ, why can't they send some to us. There's lots of us here who would buy, if reasonably priced. Surely, the price could be made more reasonable if they can breed them on a commercial scale.

[Eddie]

There seems to be quite a bit of Heckel Discus here in the shops in Japan but I am not sure where they come from. They are quite larger, about 4in and they tend to have damaged fins. The LFS always gets juveniles of other strains. I have yet to see any young juvenile Heckels here in the stores. It would be cool to see some, I'd get them. They really are regal and there is something about there shape and color. Totally different personality than my crosses

Eddie

[Apistomaster]

Hi Robyn,
There will never be a commercial market for wild types be they captured or bred that will ever compare to the popularity of the multitude of colorful hybrid forms.
There is a place for every ones' preferences. I do think that the number of discus lovers who are drawn to the wilds is growing now that we have have several decades of the pretty bred forms to choose from.
This is true of the Apistogramma spp ,other Dwarf Cichlids the Angelfish, wild type Betta spp, Endler's vs DeltaTail guppies, Catfish and of course Discus.
The wild fish are attractive in their own right and they let us enjoy a fish in it's natural form. this often entails greater demands to keep them well and usually a greater challenge still to breed them. we keep fish because we love nature and there is something about us that craves having nature at our finger tips.
Fancy discus keeping and breeding bring out a different side of our nature. we have been domesticatcating animals since the early stone age. man made fish development is often a venue to test and show off our skills at producing prize winning fish which becmoe so domesticated that some of the essence of the wild forms are lost. those who want to keep the wilds often are more motivated by the challenge of simulating their environment sufficiently that these often more difficult fish to breed provide a tremendous personal sense of accomplishment that having a wild animal breed in our care brings. one can just keep them and imagine they are seen through a window into nature doing what comes naturally and that may be award enough.
But there are some tropical fish like Heckel discus or Pterophyllum altum angelfish that have stubbornly resisted the efforts of many a skilled aquarist and just scream out the challenge; breed me if you can and have been doing that for sometimes more than 5 decades with only enough documented reports of success to let us know it can be done but leaves us with the big question of how? Not the occasional incidental success; that proves little more than that it has happened. The bigger questions are how and what do we have to do to repeat the deed. It's an aspect about biology of these fish than demands a scientific method. If they were easy then many of us who care now about them would not be nearly as interested in them as we are.
Wild discus and Heckels in particular, are not everyone's cup of tea but for those of us who care and hope to see them breed in our care, they represent some of the pinnacles of accomplishment in our hobby.
We who love Heckels and/or P. altum share many of the same types of challenges in our efforts to advance our understanding of these fish well enough that they may reasonably expected to breed more regularly in our tanks but always demanding more from us as aquarists.
I can and have coached many new domestic discus breeders to success but only the wilds still give me the run for my money I desire.
I love my domestic discus...all the way to the bank.


.

[AlexR]

Dear Heckel Enthusiasts,

in my opinion the problem with raising Heckels in a commercial scale is a little bit different.

With my TEFE Red Spotted juvenile, I realized that they grow much slower than other, non wild discus. The selection based on size, nearly all breeders will remain with the biggest discus per generation to breed the next generation, leads to very big and fast growing strains.

Wilds, F1 and also F2 are by far not selected to this point. It took nearly 24 month to get the F1 fully grown up and fully colored.


This is not possible with breeding in commercial scale. The commercial strains have to show color with 12-16 weeks, also huge and high bodied. F1 and F2 are always not so high bodied, the risk is that local dealer are not able to feed them right, so this young discus will get a more long oval shape, not the right high shape.

So it is much easier for the dealers to sell more high selected strains than natural ones.

Alex

[Eddie]

How about somebody does it for themselves and not for a commercial scale. I'd love to see the development from eggs to adult. :)

Eddie

[Ed13]

I love the shape, markings and royalty of wild discus. However, I've made up my mind that unless I find someone that does business like Kenny( besides the customer service, the Qt, sterilization, and discus only set up) or that I can import them myself from SA ( actually did the research and contacts just need the money:mad:, local:mad:, and sometime to let the market here grow:mad: unless I get to export to the US:Dso it'll be a few years;)) I'll stick to domestics. So the thought of pure tank raised wilds is very apealling to me, especially if they are from a reputable breeder.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi guys,

I cannot believe some of the guys here claiming that Heckel discus are breed in Asian (that is Symphysodon discus x Symphysodon discus).

I just came back a couple of days ago from AQUA FAIR 2008 in Kuala Lumpur where I judged 260 discus; before that I judged the discus at the AQUARIA 2008 in Shanghai, before that I visited breeders in China and Hong Kong as well as Singapore and India, all this after the 7th international Discus Championships in Germany at the begin of October 2008 where half of the 360 discus in competition came from Asia. And none, in no place mentioned, has breed Heckel discus, only some few Heckel cross here and there. NO ONE in Asia has EVER breed Heckel discus, 99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus (except for Japan, that is a different story but also there NO ONE ever breed a Heckel discus and they know very well all wilds).

So people can say what they want, but what goes on in Asia I know very well as I have seen it durng the last 4 decades traveling all the time there with my eyes, almost every year around Asia and no one has every done it there. In my upcoming volume II of Bleher's Discus I will also show that no one has ever breed Heckel discus in Asia, as I have for my book almost every Asian discus breeder interviewed. And one can see that some breeder who thought that they had breed Heckel discus were just a cross...

I have nothing more to ad to it, people can say what they want, but I only believe what I see.

All the best,

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com
www.aqua-aquapress.com

[yogi]

Heckel discus to heckel discus have been tank bred, but probably not on the commercial scale like some of you are thinking or wishing for. As far as heckel crosses go that is quite easy to do in your tank. Jusy look at this old thread I posted.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=56296 The first thing you have to do to make these crosses is mix your heckels with some blues and browns.

The demand for wild discus is much smaller than most of you think. And the demand for wild heckels is even smaller than that. I will be generous with these numbers. Simply has 12,000 members so maybe 10 percent visit on a regular basis. So that's 1,200 and maybe another 1,200 to 1,500 guests who have never registered. And out of that maybe 10 percent even visit this wild discus section because all the others are interested in domestic discus. And out of that small number there are a handful of people who are even interested in heckels and then some of them want them only if they are f1's. So now you see how small the demand is.

So why should someone go to the trouble to breed them on a commercial scale when the wild heckels are plentiful and cheap.

[ShinShin]

Please tell us Larry about all the beautiful wild tank displays in lfs's in Eastern Washington. Do you think that its only in Western Washington that reef tanks and African Cichlid tanks outnumber discus tanks? Go to Philly, go to NYC, go to Chicago and you'll see the same.

I am not talking observations here. I saw the discus. I corresponded with the Asian breeder, and I personally spoke with the Asian discus importer who sold these fish many times on the phone. Unlike your opinions (and we all know the old saying about opinions, don't we?), my posts are from actual real events. Some call this reality. For Christ's sake, Degen shows pics in his books and how long ago has that been. If he did it in Germany, why couldn't the Asians do it?

If there were a market for tank raised Heckels, the Asians would still be producing them. They did, and there was no money in it. They stopped. I think yogi put reality of Heckel discus demand into its true perspective. The fact is, they are usually the cheapest wild discus to be found.

Look back at a not too old an issue of FAMA, Tony Silva gives the name of a Malaysian breeder currently breeding Heckels. I have already recycled that issue, or I would give you the name myself.

Mat

[Tad]

Heckels are being and have been being bred in Asia for years. I don't care what Larry, Heiko, or anyone else says. I have PERSONALLY seen a tankful of Asian bred Heckels in Portland, Oregon at an importer's house. Ray Kosaka sold Asain bred Heckels 10 years ago. Dennis Hardenburg bought some of these Heckels and spawned them and shared his experience right here on Simply. Yeng has pics in his 2nd book of them, and told me in personal correspondences that the reason no one is breeding them in large scale is that there is no market for them. It is a small group of people who would buy them, and it is not economically feasable to produce them. Most are being used by Asian breeders to cross breed, looking for new starins of domestic hybrids. One of the sponsors here offered them for sale not long ago. Not everyone likes Heckels. They find the 5th bar obtrusive, and are, quite frankly, the ugly "disckling" of the discus family. There is a store here in the Pacific Northwest that still has wild Heckels in their tanks from last season.

There was an article in FAMA a few volumes back that gave the name of a breeder who is currently producing them right now.

Mat


good post Mat,

Do you know if they were pond raised or in tanks? Also if in ponds, are they also raising other wilds like Rsg's ?

regards and Happy Thanksgiving,
Tad

[Eddie]

Hey Yogi, very nice mix...they turned out very nice


Eddie

[illumnae]

Hi guys,

I cannot believe some of the guys here claiming that Heckel discus are breed in Asian (that is Symphysodon discus x Symphysodon discus).

I just came back a couple of days ago from AQUA FAIR 2008 in Kuala Lumpur where I judged 260 discus; before that I judged the discus at the AQUARIA 2008 in Shanghai, before that I visited breeders in China and Hong Kong as well as Singapore and India, all this after the 7th international Discus Championships in Germany at the begin of October 2008 where half of the 360 discus in competition came from Asia. And none, in no place mentioned, has breed Heckel discus, only some few Heckel cross here and there. NO ONE in Asia has EVER breed Heckel discus, 99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus (except for Japan, that is a different story but also there NO ONE ever breed a Heckel discus and they know very well all wilds).

So people can say what they want, but what goes on in Asia I know very well as I have seen it durng the last 4 decades traveling all the time there with my eyes, almost every year around Asia and no one has every done it there. In my upcoming volume II of Bleher's Discus I will also show that no one has ever breed Heckel discus in Asia, as I have for my book almost every Asian discus breeder interviewed. And one can see that some breeder who thought that they had breed Heckel discus were just a cross...

I have nothing more to ad to it, people can say what they want, but I only believe what I see.

All the best,

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com
www.aqua-aquapress.com

I take issue with the statement that 99% of all Asians do not know what a Heckel looks like. Lots of Asians do know what heckels are and what they look like :P No less than americans, europeans or australians.

[Eddie]

I agree illumnae, very ignorant and completely out of order. There are those who don't care about how others see them and then there are those who feel they are gods. I definitely hate people with inferiority complexes. :angry:

[kirkp]

This topic got me to searching the net and came upon this website. Something looks a little off so may be more of a heckel cross?

Kirk

http://www.jitls.com/soft.asp?id=54

[brewmaster15]

I'd like to ask everyone to please be respectful of others Views,Opinions and concerns here....This is a Discussion board...so lets Discuss...but do so in a civil and respectful fashion.

I'd also like to redirect this issue of whether Heckels are being Commercially bred....

It seems we have two main mindsets here...


One Mindset says Heckels pose a great challenge in Breeding..... as someone working with several tanks of them and having a bit of experience at breeding domestics and wilds... I have to say.....I can certainly appreciate that.. If I succeed in my goals...I will consider it my greatest Fish breeding success to date.
The Other mindset thinks that its not that they are that difficult, its that theres no "Real" market for them.. That may be true also... Of all the wilds that come in when in season, your common heckels are both abundant and relatively inexpensive... so there may not be as much a market from a profit driven view... Being an owner of this forum has put me in contact with many hobbyists and breeders and I have spoken with many over the years that honestly don't like Heckels..Often I am asked what I see in these lightly colored and glaringly barred fish.. I have a hard time validating Heckels to them as they just don't see them as I do.. If you look at most domestic strains...the moevemnt has been towards no bars...not bars..So here we are...I guess most fall in one mindset or the other..but I think if we step back and look at each perspective...we can see the point well enough to at least recognize the validity and not try to marginalize opposing views that may still be relative and pertinent to the big picture of Heckels and Discus Nuts.


As for me.. I am sure that Heckels X heckel have been done somewhere though I haven't seen it in my small slice of the world...Is it common...probably not as common as any of the other Discus strains both wild and domestic....Though to tell you the truth theres not a heck of a lot of interest in breeding any wilds commercially relative to Domestics, regardless of what the small minority of us that like wilds want to believe...... Why I think it has been done is because in the wild we have species that take years to decades to mature and breed...they have very slow lifecycles and their populations seldom are very large relative to species with high reproduction rates and rapid turn over in over populations..... From this biologists point of view...Heckels just don't seem to fall into that category...every years theres many many heckels ranging in size from 3" to 6" that are collected for market and sold inexpensively(a marker of sorts as to population size)...This fish doesn't appear to have a barrier to easy reproduction... The problem is we have either a shortage of knowledge as to its needs incaptivity or theres not enough reason for commercial breeding to be focused on heckels...I do believe that these are both true...as I know far too many skilled commercial breeders that could easily crack the code as to what Heckels need if there was enough motive in it.

As for me...I'll keep trying and hopefully be able to settle the question at least to my own satisfaction....and wish all of you the same.

Thanks,
al

[illumnae]

Well said al :)

[plecocicho]

Those discus in pics are crosses between heckel and blue discus, there is no doubt. Interesting that heckels , which are most difuucult to keep are usally really the cheapest wild discus species/variety, isnt it?:confused: Oh and most asian breeders and keepers (japan excluded) are far more interested in hybrid discus than wilds. In Europe, i think a lot of people would keep wilds, if only they would be cheaper and not so diffucult to keep.Although experienced wild discus keepers told me, that when the critical three month period is over, wilds are more robust than hybrids, because they have more general fitness compared to hybrids. Hybrids are developed from interbreeding due to preserve certain features, so they are more proned to diseases.

[plecocicho]

I agree with you Al, but you most know, that in Europe strains that have bars are more popular than those who have lost it.

[brewmaster15]

I agree with you Al, but you most know, that in Europe strains that have bars are more popular than those who have lost it.

I'm sorry, but I don't see that:).. PBs, Mellons, Bds, Albinos, Fine line snakeskins, Cobalt blues...RSGs and Leos all are pretty much without Bars as adults.... and from what I have seen in any of the competitions photos...Bars are not that common.

The exception is probably Domestically Raised Alenquers ....and possibly Red turqs...and even these Turqs have been so inbred that they rarely exhibit Their bars compared to wild types... ..

hth,
al

[Apistomaster]

I thought I made it perfectly clear that wild discus lovers are a small subset of discus keepers and those who find Heckels fascinating form an even smaller subset of the wild discus keeping contingent. I have been clear about the fact that fancy domestics will always dominate the overall discus market.
That said, there are still plenty of us around the world who prefer the wild type discus just as we who really prefer the original wild tpe angels and other fish for which more tank raised forms are the most popular. I am not trying to turn those who like domestic more than wilds into converts. My posts are mainly aimed at other like minded aquarists who are keeping or want to keep wilds. I try to share what I know so it may make there experiences with wilds a little easier. There are many differences between wilds and domestics that present challenges from the wilds we like to rise to that are not present among the domestics. I have already said that wild types are not everyone cup of tea so it isn't like I'm fomenting some kind of revolution against domestic hybrids. I do try to share my experiences with wild discus with those who are trying them so they may be spared some of the set backs that I have learned by through experience and trial and error.
The only real point of contention is between those who believe Heckels are being bred more often than the rest of us perceive. Anecdotal testimony is no use to use and proof in the form of living examples of pure bred tank raised Heckels is nonexistent in the present world wide market. Breeding them represents a challenge to advanced aquarists. The issue isn't one of economic viability. If you want to make any money from raising discus you will have to stick with domestic hybrid discus. That does not mean there are not those out there who would be pleased to buy any of the few f1 fish we can manage to produce from our wild discus. Wild caught Heckels are often available at reasonable prices but the pride of successfully breeding them is what it is about. They are another fish that tests our abilities and these are the kinds of things that motivate many fish keepers and breeders.

If you don't like wild discus and find Heckels particularly undesirable, then why on earth would you be concerned by the challenges that those of us who do like wild discus set before us?


Despite the lower population density in Eastern Washington State compared to the West side of the Cascades, there are more discus being carried in the fewer shops here than in the shops around Puget Sound. Discus are never going to be more popular than the easily kept and bred colorful African Cichlids but their fans are not representative of the typical simplydiscus member who's interest in discus is why they like this forum.

[ShinShin]

What a lod of crap, Larry. Over the few years you've been here, you have gone from Heckels aren't being bred period, Heckel to Heckel or hybridized. Finally, you must have seen enough pictures to realize that Heckels are commonly bred with wild brown/blue discus and domestics. Now, you've been backed into a corner and its pure Heckels. All that is coming out of you is denial, probabally from your own lack of success over these many years of trying. I will also bet, and you will also deny, that you attempted to cross the Heckels you have with your domestic red turquois discus and failed.

There are two people here (at least) that have bred Heckel to Heckel - Alberto and Ken. Ken had F1 Heckels up for bid on Aquabid. They were so popular, that his one spawn had to be run through the bidding more than once, if I recall correctly. That is tongue in cheek. If the demand would be so high for tank raised F1's, why wasn't the entire spawn purchased immediately?

Just because the Heckel is the great white whale that eludes you, doesn't mean someone else hasn't achieved success. As for as your eltism that exudes from every post you make, understand that this forum isn't the forum where you can post that you were the first one to breed wild discus, and everyone here will believe it. One doesn't have to be obsessed with Heckels to be interested. As far as your advanced skills as a discus keeper, you have achieved nothing more than alot of the people here, and less than some, and as for your statement about the special requirements for raising wild discus, if you raise any domestic discus the way they ought to be raised, wild discus are absolutely no problem, and may in fact be easier than some domestics.

Mat

Hi Tad,

How are you? I don't know about the tanks or ponds question.

[CliffsDiscus]

My Heckels Spawned, much easier than expected www.maniadiscus.com

Cliff

[Wahter]

Hi guys,

And none, in no place mentioned, has breed Heckel discus, only some few Heckel cross here and there. NO ONE in Asia has EVER breed Heckel discus, 99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus (except for Japan, that is a different story but also there NO ONE ever breed a Heckel discus and they know very well all wilds).

I have nothing more to ad to it, people can say what they want, but I only believe what I see.

All the best,

Heiko Bleher



Maybe no one is breeding the Heckel discus in Asia now, but Johnny Yip's book "Asian Discus" (the first one) has an article with some photos of a Korean gentleman named Kim Young Gak in Incheon, South Korea who had bred Heckels. When I was in Hong Kong in 2000 and spoke with a breeder, he said that Korean breeder was the only one breeding Heckels in Asia at the time.

HTH,


Walter

[illumnae]

Heiko seems to think Asians are unknowledgeable and "in the woods" from his comments in that post. Very offensive, very untrue and, dare I say, very racist. Based on that post, i'm starting to doubt every one of the posts he's ever made asserting his knowledge...he's clearly clueless about the real situation in Asia after all.

[rfeiller]

the only heckel x heckel successful i have ever know was fairy lake discus palace in San Francisco. Herman Chan had one pair of heckels years ago, the spawning made the paper. he has not to my knowledge repeated his success. most of his discus in the past were heckel crosses, except for his solid blues and turquoise.

[rfeiller]

the challenge of breeding discus shipped from the amazon to your home is something that most discus hobbyist even breeders will never experience and that is sad.

what is out there today discus 40 generations removed from the wild. the wild discus offered challenges that breeders with tank bred fish will never experience. the inbred tank raised fish of today are not as sensitive, alert, or are as intelligent as the wild fish. nor are they as beautiful in my opinion as the wild.

i have never bred pure heckel to heckel; i tried and tried but never succeded ( i never succeded with Altum angels either) i always believed if I could breed one I would have been able to breed the other.

in the '68 i had heckels trans-shipped from manaus through miami to Los Angeles, they were dinner plate size. I happen to like the 3 dark vertical bars and the pastel coloring of these beautiful fish. they were without a doubt the most sensitive of the wild discus.

[mckchu]

Who says Heckels are light color and not attractive??? Here are mine, that I think looks better than many domestic strain :)

Having said that ... many heckels that I see coming in at the LFS lacks the brilliant shine on the blues that is so vivid on the domestic strain... heckels don't get their brilliant color till they are fully grow AND under good condition. I doubt the heckels are happy in their LFS tanks...

[quix]

Who says Heckels are light color and not attractive??? Here is mine, that I think looks better than many domestic strain :)

Having said that ... many heckels that I see coming in from wild lacks the brilliant shine on the blues that is so vivid on the domestic strain...

Those are very beautiful heckels. Mine are still pale and the markings are more whitish than blue. Any tips on how to make the blue color more outstanding?

[mckchu]

Those are very beautiful heckels. Mine are still pale and the markings are more whitish than blue. Any tips on how to make the blue color more outstanding?


Having the right wild from good locations is a good start ... took me a LOT of visits to fish importers/distributors and a LOT of fighst with other hobbists to get these 2 fish.

I do noticed that keeping the water Ph low (my tank is 5.5) and soft water (I filter the water with peat constantly) brings out the best of all wild discus. Keep the water clean but aged, soft acidic water ...

[Apistomaster]

What a lod of crap, Larry. Over the few years you've been here, you have gone from Heckels aren't being bred period, Heckel to Heckel or hybridized. Finally, you must have seen enough pictures to realize that Heckels are commonly bred with wild brown/blue discus and domestics. Now, you've been backed into a corner and its pure Heckels. All that is coming out of you is denial, probabally from your own lack of success over these many years of trying. I will also bet, and you will also deny, that you attempted to cross the Heckels you have with your domestic red turquois discus and failed.

There are two people here (at least) that have bred Heckel to Heckel - Alberto and Ken. Ken had F1 Heckels up for bid on Aquabid. They were so popular, that his one spawn had to be run through the bidding more than once, if I recall correctly. That is tongue in cheek. If the demand would be so high for tank raised F1's, why wasn't the entire spawn purchased immediately?

Just because the Heckel is the great white whale that eludes you, doesn't mean someone else hasn't achieved success. As for as your eltism that exudes from every post you make, understand that this forum isn't the forum where you can post that you were the first one to breed wild discus, and everyone here will believe it. One doesn't have to be obsessed with Heckels to be interested. As far as your advanced skills as a discus keeper, you have achieved nothing more than alot of the people here, and less than some, and as for your statement about the special requirements for raising wild discus, if you raise any domestic discus the way they ought to be raised, wild discus are absolutely no problem, and may in fact be easier than some domestics.

Mat

Hi Tad,

How are you? I don't know about the tanks or ponds question.
I'm sorry my posts upset you so much.

[Eddie]

These look like tankbred heckels. Anybody seen or heard of this site? It's copyright protected so I am just going to add the links. :o The juvenile heckels look AMAZING!!!!!:angel:

http://www.diszkosz.hu/0209rgd/07_2_0032.jpg

http://www.diszkosz.hu/0209rgd5.php

Eddie

[AlexR]

Eddie,

for me it looks more like small wild caught. But I don't know exactly.
Usually F1 are much fatter, not so tiny. The color should be not so clear at such small juveniles.

Alex

[Eddie]

AlexR,

Could very well be but it's such a large group of juveniles that all look to be the same age, possibly the same spawn. I haven't ever seen them that small in such a large group. I can't read hungarian, I think thats where that site is based :o. Maybe somebody could transalate it and read as to whether or not this group was tank raised. Would be very interesting. They look so gorgeous.

Eddie

[mckchu]

hey ...

Try this site for online translation... seems to work "ok" but need some further syntex translation on your own part.

http://multiz.com/translator.php

Michael

[Eddie]

Thanks, I found another one that worked pretty well. I saw there was a little section with Heiko mentioned.

Eddie

[mckchu]

Looks like those 18 heckels are wild caught fish ... too bad.

[Eddie]

Looked promising though, those juveniles look really nicely grouped and lovely shape. Nice little buggers :D

Eddie

[illumnae]

We see similar sized groups like this arrive on our shores when our wild shipments come in. i think they do some sorting over at the S.American end

[Apistomaster]

They appear to be a pretty group of young wild Heckels to me.
Many years ago small Heckels were rarely imported but that has changed. I bought mine at 3 to 3-1/4 inches in diameter. Their striations just become more prominent and brilliant with maturity. I think collectors have learned where and when they can find them at this size. At this size, they ship much better, more can be packed per box and they adapt better to life in captivity than larger specimens. Not to mention it makes them more affordable. I think it's a good development.

[brewmaster15]

They may be wilds, but am I the only one here that sees the lack of Body striations on half the juveniles... a see a few with faint horizontal striations....but many look like they have little pattern at all....These do not look like Heckels to me....more like a Brown/blue with heckel like bars. They actually look like what I might speculate the fry of a natural cross between heckel and Brown/blue would Make...

I've received MANY 3" heckels and they've always had striations even at that small size.

just my opinion.

-al

[rfeiller]

we need to remember that discus are not cloned in the wild or in the aquarium. because a discus comes in not completely striated doesn't necessarrily mean that they are crosses.

a perfect example of markings and coloring are the what use to be called "lake tefe" greens. the base body color (besides location of collection) identified them as greens. some had a few red dots, some none and some where covered. today somehow magically most of the tefe greens are very colorful. makes you wonder don't it. are they be culled and pond raised in the amazon or peru?

we use to have to go through many shipments of fish, blues/royal blues, greens, browns, sorta reds, heckels to cherrry pick the very few colorful animals. now to day out of the "wild" the majority are amazingly colorful and consistant in their color.

one thing that was always frustrating to me, where "experts" writing about what could or could not be accomplished and backseat drivers critiquing what i and others had already done. without TOTAL proof please don't sit in front of a picture and decide what someone has or hasn't done. i would challenge anyone to select wild vs tank bred F1 generation in an aquarium.

[kaceyo]

They may be wilds, but am I the only one here that sees the lack of Body striations on half the juveniles... a see a few with faint horizontal striations....but many look like they have little pattern at all....These do not look like Heckels to me....more like a Brown/blue with heckel like bars. They actually look like what I might speculate the fry of a natural cross between heckel and Brown/blue would Make...

I've received MANY 3" heckels and they've always had striations even at that small size.

just my opinion.

-al

Hi Al,
I will say upfront that I have absolutly no personal experience with Heckles other than having seen hundreds (thousands?) of them in pics and in aquariums but my first thought on seeing those heckles was that they were tank raised and brown/blue x heckle cross. I've never seen any at all that were entirely brown in color as those are and the eyes don't look like the eyes of wild fish to me. Too small and evenly sized throughout the group.

Kacey

[AlexR]

Eddi, the text is of German origin :-)) it is called RGDs, somewhat a summary all about discus. Oliver Krug did this suervey of German disus lovers combined with facts about the origin. The images on the site are only for illustration reason.

Alex

[Eddie]

Thanks Alex! :)

[rfeiller]

those of you that have had the opportunity of visiting dozens of breeders small to large in the pacific rim will appreciate what i am about to say.

there are probably thousands of discus breeders in asia. many are small, maybe a dozen pairs or so. they sell their fry to a grower, he has hundreds of large aquaria for grow out to whatever body size that particular grower may market. to say that there will be hundreds even thousands of almost identical fish of several different types being prepared for shipment.

there are growers that specialize in hormoning and coloring their fish, they will have dozens of large tanks with dark red water foaming at the top. the discus that survive are shipped out by the thousands to unwary customers.

there is absolutely no way that Heiko could have visited each and every breeder to see if someone somewhere had a pond with heckels. of the hundreds of thousands of discus, in 5 countries that I saw in the hatcheries, i do not recall one heckel discus anywhere. and for good reason, they are finickey, slow growing and to the average hobbyist dull in color. most of the heckels that i have seen from the wild were not fully striated, were dull in color and extremely subject to hole in the head, the pus secreting type of hith.

raising discus is a main source of income to malaysia, ask the discus mafia as we called it, they will not waste any tank space or time on a non-profitable fish.

[mckchu]

we need to remember that discus are not cloned in the wild or in the aquarium. because a discus comes in not completely striated doesn't necessarrily mean that they are crosses.

a perfect example of markings and coloring are the what use to be called "lake tefe" greens. the base body color (besides location of collection) identified them as greens. some had a few red dots, some none and some where covered. today somehow magically most of the tefe greens are very colorful. makes you wonder don't it. are they be culled and pond raised in the amazon or peru?

....



If you consider the cost of a wild discus when you buy it from your store - whether you are in US, Germany or (especially) Asia - majority of the cost of the fish goes into shipment cost! It does makes sense for both the buyer and seller to have the most valued fish inside the box to offset the cost of the shipment, or very large number of fish. Due to the long trip to Asia - most shipments I see are selected highly colored indiviudals (often mixed in with a few colorless fish by some unworthy exporters). Occasionally, you get shipment of very small young wild discus, but often they are left in the seller's tank for months and slowly wasted away.

Don't forget - importers often has a business to run too, it makes sense for them to order med/large specimen with color starting or already showing, in order for them to quickly move the stock.

Supply and demand - when there is a demand for highly color individuals, there will be supply.

That leaves the questions - what happen to those less colorful individuals that get left behind? As previously mentioned, if not all fish are born equal - we can assume there are individuals that are highly colored, and more that are much less so.

Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to visit the source myself - hope someone in the trade can share their experience on this topic for me.

[rfeiller]

every hatchery that i visited had snakehead fish, and beautiful asian arrowanas to feed their culls to. they were the heathiest and largest snakeheads and asian arrowanas i had ever seen

[rfeiller]

i have to mention that Heiko has been a friend of mine for many years, he is without equal as a traveled authority on not only discus but many other species of fish. i would have to agree with whatever conclussions he has drawn. like i said that doesn't eliminate the possibility of one guy somewhere with a pond of heckels that no one cares enough about to mention to Heiko.

[illumnae]

i have to mention that Heiko has been a friend of mine for many years, he is without equal as a traveled authority on not only discus but many other species of fish. i would have to agree with whatever conclussions he has drawn. like i said that doesn't eliminate the possibility of one guy somewhere with a pond of heckels that no one cares enough about to mention to Heiko.

Including his extremely uneducated and wrong conclusion that 99% of Asians have never seen a heckel discus and do not know what a heckel discus is? ;)

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

this is Heiko again and just a very few comments:
1. The young Heckel discus on the Hungaria site are semi-adult wild Heckel discus photographed in my biotope aquarium (they write in the article about my decorated Bleher's biotopes and show several photos of the same).
2. There are some people in this world they just want to read what they want to read and not what is written. I have NEVER said that Asians are unknowledgeable people, in the contrary as (almost) every other human being on earth (except for ignorant people). I have cleary said that most of them do not know the Heckel discus (and mentioned the exceptions). Just as another example: I was just again judging in Kuala Lumpur discus in November with Malaysian discus breeders and experts and judges present and we talked about heckel discus and other wild discus and everyone confirmed "We never receive wild discus, we cannot get them" and never was there a Heckel discus displayed nor seen anyone of their 100plus breeding establishments... It is the very same in Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Taiwan. During the (30-year-)time of Aquarium Rio I shipped many Heckel discus to Japan and also some to Korea, no one else wanted them in other parts of Asia. But here and there some Heckel-cross have appeared (orginally from Schmidty-Focke, shipped by me) but have not lasted anywhere (as they become, or are, infertile). I just saw again 3 pieces at Tony Tan in Ipoh trying to cross them with some different variants.

I have not made any offensive comment, just said what is the fact. The truth (which many do not want to hear, and specially this writer). And I am sure the writer of this text above must be a racist, which I have not and never will be - far from it, I was raised different from many, among Indians, some of the most sincere an down to earth people in every sense of the word. Based on his post I can only judge that this person is very ignorant and wants to find something which is not there and was not mentioned nor written. I feal sorry for his stupidity.

Best regards and thanks Richard,

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bòehercom

[ShinShin]

Larry,

I wasn't upset at all. Still not. Just couldn't take the BS so early in the morning.

Richard,

Thanks for your input. A friend of mine was in Hong Kong working about ten years ago. He said there were over a thousand small breeders in Hong Kong alone.

Heiko,

With all your connections, I am sure that Tony Silva is amongst them. Why don't you call him and ask him the name of the Malaysian breeder who is currently breeding Heckels that he recently refered to in his FAMA column. Then, you'll know of one yourself. While I conceed that all your discus knowledge far, far exceeds mine, I do know that you do not know everything. No one does, and while you may have forgotten more about discus than I know, this is one thing that I know and you don't. I say all this quite respectfully, by the way. No insult intended. My info is not all anecdotal as suggested. I actually SAW the F1 pure Heckel x Heckel cross fish at an importer's place. A whole tankful, by the way, not just 4-6 pieces. This was about 8 years ago, at least. My phone conversations with Ray Kosaka about this issue was about 10 years ago. Yeng's information was exchanged via email about 7 years ago. We are not talking "today" here. Asian breeders discovered at least a decade ago that there was no money in Heckels, so why would there be a lot of breeders breeding them today? One or two good spawns would be all that is needed to satisfy the worlds demand for a tank raised Heckel. Why would anyone want them? Actually, it is really only wild discus fanciers that have an eye for Heckels. I see the beauty in them. I like discus, both wild and domestic. The solid blue Heckels I bought from Oliver Lucanus were the best I've ever seen. I've seen many. many wild Heckel discus from New York City to Seattle. However, back to my question as to why anyone would want a tank bred discus that are really wild discus fans. The F1 no longer represent wild anymore. They would have just become one of the dullest looking domestics. I suppose that some of the ones who have failed at breeding Heckels, myself included as one who has failed, would gain some pride from breeding an almost wild Heckel. I would not be included in that group, however.

Mat

ps- To all that think there is such a demand for F1 Heckels - Why did it take so long for the single spawn of F1's that were offered for sale on Aquabid? This was a legitimate spawning, too. Ken posted his accomplishment here, I believe.

[illumnae]

Heiko,

I am from Singapore, and I must say, you are the exact kind of person you have commented about in your post - you only read what you want to read, and not what others have written.

1. If you had taken the time to read the entire thread, I started this thread and I am of the view that noone has managed to breed heckels on a commercial scale. On that point, I actually quoted you and I agreed with you. You must have forgotten to read that.

2. No need to resort to name calling right? Stupidity and ignorance are rather heavy accusations for you to make based simply on an online forum. Not made any offensive comment, you say? Your concluding words to that very paragraph where you made that claim show how false your claim of being inoffensive is.

3. You claim that I am racist, when I am actually calling you out on a racist statement you made. Let me quote you: "99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus" I am defending against your very racist, very bold and very wrong claim that Asians do not know what a heckel discus look like and have not even seen wild discus. In what way am I being racist? Pray tell.

4. With regard to the above statement. Let me emphatically and categorically state that you are wrong. You say that you have visited Singapore? I am a Singaporean and I live in Singapore. Let me tell you that every year, we see thousands of wild discus enter our shores. Of these, hundreds or even thousands of them are Heckels. In the past month alone, I've personally seen hundreds of Heckels in various LFS all over Singapore. I've also seen hundreds of greens and tens of blues. Let me re-emphasize that this is in November 2008 alone. I haven't included the ones I've seen in the preceding months and years, nor have I included the fact that myself, a very ignorant and stupid person by your very own words, have known what a heckel looks like and have seen wild discus personally since I was a mere 11 years old.

5. The LFS I frequent see tens to hundreds of customers a day. The wild discus are often sold out within days and more arrive to take their place. There goes your claim about Singapore.

6. I've also been informed by LFS in Hong Kong that they do indeed bring in Heckel and other wild discus. The same goes for Malaysia. You yourself have said you've seen Heckels in Tony Tan's place in Ipoh, Malaysia. I have heard of Malaysians keeping wild discus as well. There goes your claim about other parts of Asia. I'm sure I don't need to bring up examples about Japan, since you yourself have conceded that the Japanese have indeed seen and kept Heckels and other wild discus.

7. It is well true that Heckels and other wild discus are not as popular as bred discus here in Asia. This is true all over the world. Dare you say that wild discus are more popular in America or Europe than bred discus? I would hardly think so. Does that mean that 99% of Americans do not know what a heckel discus is, or that few if any Europeans have ever even seen a wild discus? I bet you dare not make that claim. The same goes for Asians. We might specialize in breeding various colour variants of discus, but that does not mean that we do not KNOW of wild discus, nor does it mean that we have never SEEN wild discus.

8. I now challenge you to prove your claim. Show me survey results that 99% of all Asians do not know what a heckel discus looks like. Also show me survey results that few, if any, Asians have ever seen a wild discus. Are you able to do so? Quoting some miserable conversation you had that merely said "we are unable to get wild discus" is hardly verification that noone here has SEEN or KNOWS OF wild discus. You might think that your name and reputation are enough to qualify your statements, but they are not. Are you able to give any concrete proof for that bold claim of yours? Are you able to show me 99 Asians for every 1 that I can produce who knows what a heckel discus looks like? Where will you hide your face if I can bring you at least 10 Singaporeans who have personally seen wild discus? 10 is certainly more than "a few, if any", and Singaporeans alone make up only a very small percentage of all Asians. If i can produce 10 Singapores, you can bet that there are certainly way more than "a few" more in all of Asia.

You may be one of the leading experts on wild discus worldwide, but that does not give you the right to insult an entire continent with your baseless and untrue statements. While I respect your knowledge on discus and on fish in general, I certainly hope that you're man enough to admit it when you're wrong and concede that you made a sweeping and untrue generalisation.

That's really all my posts in this regard are about. With regard to the main topic of this thread, as I've stated previously, I'm in agreement with you that noone in Asia or anywhere else in the world has bred Heckels on a commercial scale.


Hi,

this is Heiko again and just a very few comments:
1. The young Heckel discus on the Hungaria site are semi-adult wild Heckel discus photographed in my biotope aquarium (they write in the article about my decorated Bleher's biotopes and show several photos of the same).
2. There are some people in this world they just want to read what they want to read and not what is written. I have NEVER said that Asians are unknowledgeable people, in the contrary as (almost) every other human being on earth (except for ignorant people). I have cleary said that most of them do not know the Heckel discus (and mentioned the exceptions). Just as another example: I was just again judging in Kuala Lumpur discus in November with Malaysian discus breeders and experts and judges present and we talked about heckel discus and other wild discus and everyone confirmed "We never receive wild discus, we cannot get them" and never was there a Heckel discus displayed nor seen anyone of their 100plus breeding establishments... It is the very same in Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Taiwan. During the (30-year-)time of Aquarium Rio I shipped many Heckel discus to Japan and also some to Korea, no one else wanted them in other parts of Asia. But here and there some Heckel-cross have appeared (orginally from Schmidty-Focke, shipped by me) but have not lasted anywhere (as they become, or are, infertile). I just saw again 3 pieces at Tony Tan in Ipoh trying to cross them with some different variants.

I have not made any offensive comment, just said what is the fact. The truth (which many do not want to hear, and specially this writer). And I am sure the writer of this text above must be a racist, which I have not and never will be - far from it, I was raised different from many, among Indians, some of the most sincere an down to earth people in every sense of the word. Based on his post I can only judge that this person is very ignorant and wants to find something which is not there and was not mentioned nor written. I feal sorry for his stupidity.

Best regards and thanks Richard,

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bòehercom

[William Palumbo]

I love these posts. Usually lots of good theories and info to ponder. But sady they seem to ALL take a turn for the worst, as this one is doing. Heckels bring out the worst in us!...lol...But anyways, at this rate, I see this thread being locked very shortly. Very unfortunate...Bill

[quix]

I do not wish to add to any negative feelings to this thread but feel I should just add my limited point of view.
I don't know and do not care if any asians have bred heckels before but it is surprising to know that Heiko thinks that asian hobbyists do not know about wild discus and have not even seen heckel discus(with a few exceptions). I myself know quite a good handful of Singaporean hobbyists who have kept wild discus from some years back. We also see pretty regular import of wild discus be it heckels, greens or blue/brown every year. And very often, the good healthy stock get cleared out pretty well and fast. Going into asian fish forums, one can also find discussions on and pictures of wild discus that the local hobbyists have kept. My point here is not to say asian hobbyists are more knowledgeable or not. We may not have gone to Peru/Brazil and seen the fish in their natural habitat but that there is a good number of asian hobbyists (esp those who are interested in discus) who have at least seen and know about wild discus to varying degree.
It's been a great discussion on this and the other topics, let's not go overboard and try to keep the good stuff going. :)

[mckchu]

every hatchery that i visited had snakehead fish, and beautiful asian arrowanas to feed their culls to. they were the heathiest and largest snakeheads and asian arrowanas i had ever seen


Yes, in fish farms in Asia - culls are good feed for others. I was hoping to know how the wild fish collectors in South American when they caught less than "picture perfect" specimens, do they let them free, or bag them anyway? I am sure there are prize winners as well as rejects...

I met with a HK local discus breeder, who were shipping 10,000 discus to Japan a month back in 1992 - 1994 period! I was there to buy some beef heart and ended up listening to his story for 5 hours! He had 4 "factories" at one time and have over a thousand tanks - all cloning out diamond blue discus for the Japanese market! He had this amazing story about the origin of the Diamond blue discus ... then as suddenly as it came, the demand in Japan stopped, and that was end of his line of Diamond Blue... fish farmers continue a line as long as there is demand. When it becomes economically not viable - the line stops. Yes, its that simple. They are commerical "factories" and not hobbyists...

Its up to hobbyists like ourselve to preserve interesting breeds... not fish farmers.

[rfeiller]

mckchu, you are exactly right, good post.
to elaborate a little, let's use the common farmer. the farmer plants one type of vegetable, there may be 100 cultivores for that species of vegetable, but he plants the one that works for him. for the most part he knows nothing about 90 of the other cultivars. he grows exactly what sells and works for him. that does not show ignorance on his part. he is wise to concentrate on what he can presell.
a number of the breeders i met over in the pacific rim told me they grow whatever the broker ask for. in fact i understand the broker provides at least some of them with their breeding pairs. these fish farmers my have only a couple of strains that they work with at a time.

maybe some day the fad will turn to heckels.

[rfeiller]

what i was told years ago by the florida transshipper who collected and shipped out of Manaus was the best go to Japan, then europe and asia and what's left goes to the USA. we'll buy anything.

[illumnae]

mckchu, i've read that the "reject" discus are cooked and eaten by the fishermen

[rfeiller]

remember the topless native girl with the meticulously manicured nails eating the discus in Jack Wattley's book?

or the native with the wood slab in his upper lip eating the discus in Jack's book

or Schlutz (the namesake of willie schultzi and a couple of others eating discus around a campfire in Jack's book?

you're probably right about the fishermen, i don't think they waste anything.

[wannafish]

A thought before retiring!

I have been following this thread because I am
a new enthusiast of Heckels. And I wanted to find
out more about them. I have grown to enjoy my
Heckels very much. I think they are beautiful.
And I don't know why they have such a weak
reputation behind them. But in responding to
this thread, I say, who really cares where
Heckels are being bred on a commercial scale!
If someone is doing it, then that's great, maybe
they can gain their fame back for aquarium hobbyists.
I think Illumnae is out of line here, and has
taken it to the point of a personal attack. This
is a forum, and we are here to share ideas
and information. This is not a court of law.
And nobody has to prove anything. So when
Larry and others here are successful in
breeding Heckels, the world will be a better
place, and we can forget about the little
breeder in Asia that has bred Heckels
commercially.

[brewmaster15]

I love these posts. Usually lots of good theories and info to ponder. But sady they seem to ALL take a turn for the worst, as this one is doing. Heckels bring out the worst in us!...lol...But anyways, at this rate, I see this thread being locked very shortly. Very unfortunate...Bill

Bill,
I'd really rather not Lock it.. I think Discussions like this are very valuable.. provided they stay civil... :( Lets all try to keep it that way.

I think Its time I Suggest strongly that those with personal issues with other members take those up privately with that party.

Thanks all,
al

[illumnae]

Noted Al, I've been trying to keep it civil myself, but being called stupid and ignorant rubs me the wrong way, and I didn't think I was being any more acrimonious than some other posts that already appeared in the thread :) My apologies!

However, I do still think that my points are very valid and that Heiko did make mistake about wild discus and the Asian community in his posts! This is relevant as it pertains directly to our discussion (if Asians have never seen wild discus, they can't exactly breed them on any scale, let alone a commercial scale!)

Anyway, back to the discussion!

[mckchu]

remember the topless native girl with the meticulously manicured nails eating the discus in Jack Wattley's book?

or the native with the wood slab in his upper lip eating the discus in Jack's book

or Schlutz (the namesake of willie schultzi and a couple of others eating discus around a campfire in Jack's book?

you're probably right about the fishermen, i don't think they waste anything.

Might be next time when I have a casualty ... I will take out my frying pan....

Anyway, as I mentioned in other threads ... wild discus shipments do come to HK, but not as regular as I would like to see. Often the quality varies a lot.

Like it or not ... its supply and demand again! In the recent 6 to 9 months, almost all South American shipments I see consists of plecos and freshwater stringrays. If I am a keen stringray keeper with limitless tank space and $$$ - I would be in heaven! I can get a Potamotrygon leopoldi for US$3000 :)

Michael

[illumnae]

From what my LFS told me, July to November is usually Altum/Pleco/Cory season. The South American shipments to Singapore (and probably to Hong Kong) as well are almost exclusively these fish. I guess it's stingrays for you as well, but imports of stingrays are rare in Singapore.

After that season, once end-November hits, that's when wild discus season starts.

True to this, in the last few weeks, as I posted earlier, I've seen hundreds of Heckels and Greens and 1 shipment of I think 80 pieces of large blues/browns arrive at our shores. I've been assured of more shipments to come, hopefully the elusive and expensive blue-faced heckel as well.

[Apistomaster]

I'm another one who is under the impression that the cream of the wild Discus entering North America are forwarded to Japan and other SE Asian fish keeping centers and we buy the left overs.

Many common Blues, to cite one example sell for $30 to $40 each here and once the prices rise much over $50 each for wild Discus, we begin to balk. If what I have read is and have been told by some importers is true, they forward the nice ones to the countries where exceptionally nice wild Discus will sell for $1000 to $2000 each

I know for myself that a discus better be very nice before I am willing to pay $100 for it but I will pay that much. If the price is going to be $125 to $150 it better be a well marked "Royal Blue or very exceptional Red Spotted Green.

Everyone here knows I love Heckels but I will never pay more than about $30 each for them. I wouldn't pay a lot more for a nice "Blue Face" type of Heckel.
My reasons for not valuing Blue faced Heckels enough to pay more for them is because I know my chances of ever breeding them are so low and I will see no difference in their behavior than a more typical specimen and their behavior is what I enjoy. The typical Heckels have their moments when they really shine. They must do something for me because they are the only fish I keep that I do not have a reasonable belief that I will be able to breed them. They cut into my limited space and I could make more money if their tank was free for one of the Domestic varieties that my customers will buy. Heckel Discus are my one indulgence in a fish that does not either earn its keep or has a chance to do so.

At least when it comes to the Blues and Greens I know I have a reasonable chance of breeding them. That said, I like Heckels a lot because they have a gentler, more sociable temperament that I find very interesting to observe. the Blues and Greens are more scrappy amongst themselves. I allow them much more room per fish than I do Heckels to keep the peace. I get a kick out of each of the 3 species and enjoy their character differences.

On a more touchy subject, I post on the Singapore forum, aquaticquotient.com and I know how much value the Singapore Discus lovers place on their wild Discus. My friend, ilumnae, knows I share my fish breeding experiences there on a range of subjects from SA Dwarf cichlids, fancy dwarf Plecos and Discus. I enjoy learning how others on the opposite side of the world solve the challenges they encounter in fish breeding. There are some really gorgeous SA Dwarf Cichlids I get to see and the number of skilled fish photographers and their work is amazing.

[Eddie]

Here in Okinawa Japan, there are quite alot of wild discus available. They even have pairs available but I don't think they are truly pairs. I think they just throw 2 in the tank and call them a pair. They sell for about $400-500. Individually sold wilds run about 100-150. They were advertising some heckels a while back for 90 dollars and I am pretty close with the workers so he gave me 1 heckel for 50 bucks. The others did not look too good but the one I have is a very nice specimen. I have 4 heckel crosses and the heckel together, he is the odd man out but the most interesting as far as character. I haven't seen too many other wilds here in Okinawa that I would say look better than anybody's wilds on this site. The wilds I see in this forum are million times better than the ones I see here at the LFS. Now maybe its different in mainland Japan. I have seen websites that offer very nice wilds but nothing exceptional over here.

:)
Eddie

[Ed13]

Just to point it out. When said the highest quality discus (same happens with saltwater fish) goes to Japan, you have to remember that those super nice wild discus are one in hundreds or more, perhaps one in a collection or maybe even one in a season. Many are spoken for, others reserved for the best customers, others are bought as soon as they arrive. So that doesn't necessarilly mean average hobbyist and the market don't get similar discus as the west, just that the best are sent there:p

Let the discussion continue...

[mckchu]

Hi Basshead ... I posted this link earlier in another thread ... its a Japanese link selling wild caught discus. http://news.petballoon.co.jp/news/index.html since I don't read Japanese (but good with the search engine) ... so not sure there they are in Japan. But in some of the lists - they do have prices on, and some REAL nice RSG are asking for 200,000 yen ! Thats around US$2000!!! Check it out - to see how real this site it. If you can find out more - let us know.

Here is another site I found recently - http://www.b-house.jp/ looks like this company has wilds, as well as F1 and F2 crosses. It took me only a little while to figure out they actually listed all their pairing and cross, as well as the full-grown F1 pairing with wilds/F1/F2 ... quite an interesting site. They also sell some wild fish - also from 30,000 yen to 200,000 yen!

I talked with a few local HK importers ... they also say the exporters they know in South American is willing to sell AAA grade wild caught RSG and royal blues but the prices they ask for is sky-high. Guess they will only ship them to those who is willing to pay.

I can only assume since the cost of living in Japan (especially in Tokyo area) is so high - a US$500 discus might be comparible to a US$100 fish in US?!? I remember when I was there for vacation last year - a glass of coke was 800 yen .. thats around US$8 for a glass of coke in a local food store! Might be I was ripped off because I couldn't speak Japanese ...

[wgtaylor]

To all, it appears Simply Discus is getting more discus hobbyists from around the world. I think this is a great opportunity to clear any myths about who gets the best wild discus. I think here in the U.S., like Ed and Eddie have said, the majority of wilds are average with only a few being of exceptional color. Those exceptional ones quickly get picked off. Most of the wilds I have gotten are what I perceive to be average wilds but even they get gorgeous when they mature and I love every one of them. Interesting in Okinawa the heckels appear the least expensive of the wilds. That is what I have seen so far this year in the U.S. also.
Now, why would I or anyone else try to breed two difficult heckels and raise the fry up to 3 and 5 inch then sell them for half what I could sell average easy to raise domestic discus? Doesn't make sense, the more heckels you raise the more you lose. That doesn't mean the genetic diversity gained by breeding wild heckels wouldn't benefit the discus gene pool but after all the hard work who would want to sell easy to spawn heckel fry.
Please, don't take offense of this, I love heckels as much as any of my wilds, just some thoughts I have been mulling over.

Really great to see a International Simply Discus. Bill

[illumnae]

An LFS owner once told me that for the wild fish being shipped to Asia, Japan gets the first pickings, then Taiwan, then Hong Kong, then Singapore. Hence, the quality of the fish gets progressively worse as we move down the chain. Singaporeans have been resorting to ordering wild fish (not just discus but plecos and dwarf cichlids as well) from Japan and Taiwan in order to get premium fish...of course, premium prices are unavoidable.

In our recent shipments, heckels are lower priced than greens and blues as well.

[William Palumbo]

I think a solid blue discus with the Heckel stripe would look cool...as would a solid red fish such as a San Merah with the Heckel stripe. I always liked the Heckel stripe, I see some hybrids where the Heckel stripe is not well defined and looks uneven or unbalanced...some looks like it's ink running down the fish. Anyways... stripe or no stripe, it would be good to see Heckels crossed with domestics to at least get these fish back to the original ROUND shape...Bill

[rfeiller]

that unfortunately holds true for the equipment the japanese. i loved selling most of my fish to japan, because i knew if i could satisfy those folks I could satisfy any client.

i would ship 200-500 silver dollar fish at a time to Japan. i would get a call at two in the morning if there was one fish with a bent ray in the fin or an eye that was not perfect.

when in penang buying fish, i had a few thousand to spend. a japanese buyer came into the hatchery and while i was mulling over some of the fish he purchased the entire tanks of fish. he spent 100,000 dollars us.

[rfeiller]

william, that is the main reason the heckels where crossed with the blues in the 70's and early 80's it was to get round hi-fin fish. but it was a pain trying to get rid of those vertical bars.

[yogi]

This thread has taken some twists and turns and I did not go back and read the three added pages since I last checked in. Some of you who kept discus back in the 90's must remember Sunny and Rocky from WWFF. They both incorprated wilds in their breeding. I found two older links about them. Their fish are coded, but the wild strains start with ww.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/fukuyama/

www.aic-kumamoto.co.jp/wwff.htm

[William Palumbo]

I remember Lo Wing Yats' fish. I thought were some of the finest Discus around at the time. Very large fish. I was at DSG symposium in the 90's and saw his fish displayed. HUGE! Unfortunately you had to go thru a broker (Marc Weiss) to get them...but I had some really nice Discus...Bill

[rfeiller]

at the time Lo Win Yats fish were if not the finest in the world, they certainly made a close second. i purchased a large male from him through the DSG auction at one of the new york symposiums.

i never had the opportunity of going to his hatchery, but the pictures he showed me and how he described his processes was beyond compare.

[Darren's Discus]

I think a solid blue discus with the Heckel stripe would look cool...as would a solid red fish such as a San Merah with the Heckel stripe. I always liked the Heckel stripe, I see some hybrids where the Heckel stripe is not well defined and looks uneven or unbalanced...some looks like it's ink running down the fish. Anyways... stripe or no stripe, it would be good to see Heckels crossed with domestics to at least get these fish back to the original ROUND shape...Bill

Bill,
Andrew soh's book the naked truth has a pic of a beautiful solid red discus with only the centre bar it looks fantastic !


cheers

[yogi]

Your right that you did have to go through Marc to buy the fish. Marc was his USA representative. No matter what you hear Marc and Sunny are still good friends.

[William Palumbo]

Hi Rich...I remember you there. Thought your name was framiliar...you been MIA on the Discus scene for so long! I bought some of your Discus at that synposium...thru a raffle or auction. They turned out to be gorgeous fish like everyone there told me they would be. It was a good time back then...one hell of a gathering of Discus people for sure...Bill

[rfeiller]

if you feel the frustration with heckels, you should have tried breeding any discus in the 60's. everything was hit or miss. no meds, no nutritional information, anysuccess were delibertly misrepresented in the publications to keep the aura of complexity around the discus. and this was the poor blues and browns. at age 16 it took 2 days wages to buy a wild 1-1/2" brown and it took me two months to kill it with kindness.

don't give up on the heckels, they are extremely complex and worth the effort. there is little challenge in repeating over and over what has already been done thousands and thousands of times.

[rfeiller]

i'm so glad that you had success with my fish. a lot of love and work went into everyone of them it was so upsetting to watch my fish being abused by those that thought they were a ornament floating in their tanks.

thanks for the rememberance.

the Japanese being formal folks called me by my first name Frank and left out the Richard
which did cause a little confusion. i was honored by them to be selected as one of the top breeders in the world two years in a row.

Richard

[William Palumbo]

Hi Darren...I don't have Andrews book...but I have seen some pics of Ica red? Discus in my Asian Discus book, and I thought they looked really exotic. But I am sure like the Heckel themselves, those type of fish would only appeal to a small market of hobbyist...Yogi...I never heard anything bad about Sunny...but Marc is another story. I met and talked to Marc...seemed nice enough...and he sent me and my buddy nice fish on several occasions. About that time was when the Discus shifted from being everything "German" to Asian. That made a lot of people mad as there were so many brokers out there thriving off the German strains...Bill

[rfeiller]

there was so much hype on german fish, but the market belongs to asia. the room, the forming of co-ops, the labor cost, temperature, water quality are all much better in asia then in germany.

germany however, will always produce some great fish, because of the quality bar they place on whatever they do.

[beta]

These are a heckel cross pair from Malaysia, which I used to own. Unfortunately the male was an EESOB and I lost the male recently.

Singapore does get wild discus regularly. Infact I have seen hundreds of wild greens and Heckels at Gan fish farm back in 2003. I have added the pics of the heckels that I got from them too.
I know atleast 4 or 5 Wild discus keepers in India too.
There was a recent shipment of wilds to Biotope aquarium in Singapore too.

Dale Cheong in Singapore was also working on some heckel crosses..
Unfortunately the pics seems to have disappeared during the gallery migration. Let me see if I can get him to chip in with some more info and pictures.
http://www.aquarealms.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=53


You can see some heckel crosses here too:
http://discussanctuary.com.my/discus2.html

[Apistomaster]

I always thought it would be nice to have some aquarium strains of Heckels and it was a life long dream of mine that I would some day spawn and raise some Heckels to establish a line of aquarium strain Heckel at least as easily bred as the other wilds. I was and still am sure there would be others who would like to be able to keep and breed an aquarium strain Heckel but I never had any illusions that they could make their breeder rich. Aquarium raised F1 wild types of any other discus will always appeal mostly to those who like a natural color forms of discus.
Having some that are home grown would also make them less likely to be carrying as many parasites as their wild parents and that would be a plus.

Heckel Discus and Altum Angels are 2 species of beautiful Cichlids that present a challenge to breeders that just begs to be accomplished in as an achievement that is going to be very satisfying to anyone who manages to do it. There are some fish, like Heckel and Altums that have more symbolic importance to breeders than as objects of financial gain.
I am still trying, even after over 4 decades to just once have a pair of Checker Board Cichlids, Dicrossus filamentosus, raise a brood. I have bred them over 50 times and have only managed to get a few fry to survive. When a female takes care of her brood instead of eating the eggs there is a much higher survival rate. There is no money to be made as the wild imports are very cheap but they are like Heckels, if I get to have the experience of a successful spawning resulting in many fry I will feel like I achieved a long desired goal.
My interest and involvement with Discus is very old and it has surprised me that after being in the hobby as long as they have that Heckels remained such a stubborn fish for the most experienced aquarist to breed.
I believe this was pretty much the line of the discussions Al and I had a few years ago about considering the creation of the Heckel Project. I know he and I never discussed how rich we could become. We both wanted to try to discover more about how to make breeding them a more realistic possibility if we could bring to bear as much talent as we could to learn how to make Heckel breeding events less rare.

There is a parallel effort going on regarding Pterophyllum altum. No one expects to get rich.
What we want to understand is what does it take, besides lots of luck, to breed S. discus and P. altum? So far, the evidence has largely pointed to a lot of luck that accounts for a relatively few successful spawns. There are many doubts about both as to how many of the reported spawns were within the species or were hybrids between the more eager males of the target species breeding with a more willing females of another.
I hope we can get back into the spirit in which this project was originally conceived.
I have bred the Checkerboards. This was the latest time. The eggs were eaten, per usual.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/D-3.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/P5230009.jpg

[brewmaster15]

I believe this was pretty much the line of the discussions Al and I had a few years ago about considering the creation of the Heckel Project. I know he and I never discussed how rich we could become. We both wanted to try to discover more about how to make breeding them a more realistic possibility if we could bring to bear as much talent as we could to learn how to make Heckel breeding events less rare.Very True Larry... If it were money that was motive...I'd definetly not be using the tank space as I am for heckels.:) Its the challenge and pursuit of knowledge for me.. But then again.. I'm just a hobbyist with alot of tanks relative to many....and few tanks relative to many others.:):)

I just want to see Heckel Fry...theres so much speculation on this and that aspect of their life cycle and needs.. Rearing fry and the information to be gathered from that is priceless to me.

best of luck to us all.

-al

[cyang]

Dale Cheong in Singapore was also working on some heckel crosses..
Unfortunately the pics seems to have disappeared during the gallery migration. Let me see if I can get him to chip in with some more info and pictures.
http://www.aquarealms.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=53


You can see some heckel crosses here too:
http://discussanctuary.com.my/discus2.html

This is a very interesting thread. I don't have much interest in heckels...but I read through all 8 pages of posts so far because the drama was interesting lol

Anyways...I'm friends with Dale through Facebook...

Maybe I'll ask him a few questions...

[stanlee]

Much that we would like to respect Heiko for his contribution to the wild species including discus from south america, to the extend of being "arrested" for a cause he believes in, I must put in my 2 cents worth of clarification of his sweeping statements about Asians not knowing about heckels and wild discus, and this includes Singapore.

99% is an absurd figure to come to , as heckels have been around since the 80s when I was already playing around with wild heckels.

Most asians don't know about wild discus?? You got to be kidding!

It would be amounting to saying that we live in tree tops in singapore.
Anybody who had visited singapore will know better. I don't need to ellaborate further.

Perhaps when heiko was here , he might had been misled to make the mistake of saying these sweeping statements. Perhaps he didn't meet the right people.

I would not go into the extreme of "racism", but I think facts are just as important to support the credibility of the person.

The higher people hold you in high esteem, the more credible you should be, not only appears to be, but to be actually credible.

Afterall all, people in the discus world makes you as credible as you think you are. If you spew non- facts and insist you are right without retraction even though somebody points it out, very soon your credibility will erode and it will be soon before you become a big joke.

So Heiko, 99% of asians don't know about heckels ? Get a life man!

How many discus comes out of Asia every day? I strongly think that asians know more about Jack Wardley and his contribution to discus in America, than what heiko knows about what asians know about wild discus.

I don't know who gave you the pep talk while you were in singapore. You probably mixed with wrong guys. Remember it never appears to be what it appears to be!

Perhaps if you ever have a chance to come back to singapore, you can talk to the right guys and I am sure you will be convinced otherwise. Some of us who believes that you are 100% wrong will be more than happy to meet up with you I think.

So heiko, please retract your so called "facts" before your credibility gets eroded further. Perhaps you cannot be bothered of course. Matter of fact, you know what people say about things that go up? They always come straight down, sooner or later. This especially happens when people get too big for their boots by the way.

So please don't let it be sooner for you.

If you are still puzzled about why we are offended by your statements and still maintains you are right, feel free to ask j. wardley, or bergen et al who came down to spore more than 20 yrs ago to meet up with the 1st president of the discus club of singapore and of course the gan family of gan's discus fame, and way before you. Already then, spore was already having heckels all over the place. Please get your facts right next time.

Now you know why the south american authorities "arrested" you. Because they got the facts wrong ..... I hope.

RETRACT PLEASE.
Thank you.

[rsawest@yahoo.com]

Beta,

Those are beautiful Heckel crosses!

Linda

[wgtaylor]

To demystify the secret of breeding pure heckel to heckel would be a worthy achievement for anyone with the love of wild discus. I'm sure it will happen some day and sure Al will graciously have that information shared world wide on this site. To do so would probably be accomplished and published by people with a love for the hobby, not done on a unprofitable commercial scale as was the rumor in the original post.


There's someone on a local Singaporean forum making bold claims that the heckel shipments we have started to receive are actually farm bred heckels and not from the wild. He has claimed that heckels are being bred on a commercial scale in Malaysia and possibly other parts of the world.

All of us (myself included) that keep wild discus know there is very little profit to be made raising wilds. While this is not an answer to the original question but in my opinion creates sincere doubt that heckels might be raised commercially. Maybe with all the world wide attention to this site the answer to this rumor can be fettered out and prevent the noble heckel discus, after traveling half way around the world, from being demoralized as just another tank raised fish.
I will always have wild discus in my tanks and hope all others that do have many fry, including heckels. :) Bill

[mckchu]

Actually ... just looking at the title again - "Heckels bred in commercial scale?" ... Hm ... in fact, as "ANY wild strain bred in commercial scale?" ... might be a more interesting question to ask!

Of course, many, many people have bred wild greens, blues and brown discus around the world for YEARS - but I don't see any large supplies of "Fx Tefe RSG", or "Fx Cuipeua", or "Fx Ica Red" in any commerical fish farmers' regular list. Sure - you can find nice F1 or F2 from special dealers or via internet on Aquabid ... but I won't call them "commercial scale"...

You can order 1000 leapord spotted, or a 1000 diamond blue from any one of the discus farms, and you will get 1000 identical discus... but after 30, 40 years of breeding wilds, you cannot order 1000 Tefe Red Spotted Greens, Or 500 Ica Red, 200 Nhamunda Blue... Forget about the Heckels!

Hobbyists willing to pay extra for the wild fish. In Japan - the land of the rising sun, top quality "Alpha" (as Heiko calls them) wild discus are going for US$1000 to US$2000 a piece! Surely, with their super efficiency and attention to details - they should have been cloning the 300 spots Tefe RSGreen by now... I have seen pictures of Japanese happily showing their expensive RSG in magazine and internet that are 20 years old...

Why ... my thoughts are simple. The idea of a "WILD" fish is what is keeping the hobbyists interested in wild fish.

I have seen some F1 from pure wild caught parentage - fed with man-made beef hearts, Brine shrimp, etc... do they look ugly or what! Their shapes are no longer the round, elegant wild like their parents, their color and pattern .... just doesn't look right anymore.

Of course, there are some exceptional F1 and F2 that are much more beautiful than their wild parents... but again... are these F1 and F2 "wild" fish anymore?

There was another thread related to "domestication" of wild discus. By artifically doing "human" selection as oppose to "nature" selection; and feeding them man-made food, these Fx already started to move away from the wild appearance that wild discus hobbyist value so much - the vivid color, the unique color and pattern, the elegant shape, the ... well - the "wild" factors! The imperfection and unique characters of a wild discus fish ...

Why do all Fx RSG looks more like spotted turquoise from J. Wardley than a real beautiful wild Tefe RSG? Sure - they are more colorful, but it doesn't make them beautiful.

Might be the word "wild discus" breeding and "commerical scale" breeding will never cross path - might be its good to remain this way....

[William Palumbo]

I agree with what you say mckchu...I like wild Discus because they are "wild". I have seen F1 progeny from Brown, Blue and Green Discus, and as like you said some are very nice...but it looks to me as if the rest of the young are just poor examples of their parents. Maybe that has something to do with us picking who they spawn with or even our "homemade" foods. That first pic that beta posted of the Heckel cross is NOT appealing to me at all. That 5th Heckel stripe HAS to be better defined and balanced. But with that being said...I have personally out-crossed wilds with domestics and have improved the vigor and the shape of the strain that I have crossed it with. As most have done on here out-crossing wild stock. I agree with you when you mention off-spring from RSG...I have NEVER seen RSG fish that looked as good...or better as the parents. As for me I will NEVER trade off Discus shape for coloration or markings. I would like to see more domestic strains crossed with wild fish just to bring back the shape and the size to these fish. Never have I seen so many "average" full grown sized Discus before. Fish spawning at 4 or 5 inches in size is the norm now. And all the threads and posts on here about sickness and disease is very alarming. I feel we need to start outcrossing our domestic strains back with wild stock to introduce new blood and vigor into future fish...or have a bunch of small sized Discus that get and stay sick all the time...Bill

[wgtaylor]

Amen, Bill Palumbo. We share exact sentiments. I thought I was just becoming a grumpy old man and harder to please. :) Bill Taylor

[brewmaster15]

Amen, Bill Palumbo. We share exact sentiments. I thought I was just becoming a grumpy old man and harder to please. :) Bill TaylorDitto:):):):) though I do feel grumpy and harder to please...though I am not quite "old" yet!:D

-al

[William Palumbo]

Hey Bill...who's to say wer're not TWO grumpy old men!

[wgtaylor]

Bill and Al, you guys are great, you don't show a grumpy side.:)
I can stand alone here being grumpy thank you ! ha ha.

[wannafish]

Now I know why Discus are called
"King of the Aquarium", other than
their beauty and grace; $2000.00
for a fish! Unreal!

[brewmaster15]

Now I know why Discus are called
"King of the Aquarium", other than
their beauty and grace; $2000.00
for a fish! Unreal! thats not why....$2000 is nothing... Some arrowanas go for $10,000 Plus each and come complete with microchips.


They are the king of the aquarium because of the way that they carry themselves...theres a beautiful grace and elegance to this fish that entrances you.... you see it in domestics a bit...but I find it most evident in wilds..... they are like eagles, wolves, big cats, and bears... a symbol of something most will never see in person....raw nature in its most simplest form...okay... enough Poetry...they just plan Rock!:D

-al

[mckchu]

I agree with what you say mckchu...I like wild Discus because they are "wild". .............Bill

I was keeping African Rift Lake cichlids around 10 years ago ... same "wild" concept applies there too. People are willing to pay 3 or 4 times more for wilds then to get bred fish.

Wonder if anyone did any serious researches on why bred discus, especially the RSG, loses their parents appearance & color pattern in just 1 or 2 generations....

Michael

[brewmaster15]

Hi Michael,
On these RSG thoughts and questions... I think its important to realize a few things.. The Domestic RSG we have today are not bred from wild RSG.. they are derrived from Turqs... I know they are sold as RSG but its misleading IMO.

The other thing to remember is that wild RSG are a variable patterned fish at best... ranging from many spots to almost no spots.. and I suspect that is what you get when you bred them.

hth,
al

[mckchu]

Al,

Yes ... aware of what the commercial guys are calling RSG and the F1 and F2 RSG from wild stock. I have seen some local HK, Taiwan and Japanese photos of RSG from wild parentage ... F1 still looks like wild RSG - in terms of their shapes, the way the fine spots randomly covers the body and anal fin...but soon after, by F2 and beyond, as well as some F1s... the spots becomes more uniformed & regular, bolder and more strips across the forehead and upper half of the body, and all looks like in need of a good work out to loss the fat.

Still - nothing beats the wild stock selected by nature, created by God. I guess its the random-ness that I don't see anymore from bred fish...

Anyway - personal observation.


Michael

[illumnae]

The loss of "wild, natural" patterning in RSGs is probably due to man's innate compulsion to meddle. When a breeder breeds F1 RSG, it's the result of 2 wild fish...not much selection goes into it other than to find the best of what the fishermen have managed to catch. From the F1, the breeder probably selects what he views as the "best" fish in terms of patterns, be it more spots or more green or what-have-you. When these fish are crossed, I think it's natural that the next generation, the F2, starts to look contrived and artificial...after all, how often do you have 2 specially marked fish bred in nature? The next generation, the F3 would be even worse and the downward spiral towards domestic breeds would be firmly in place. I believe that if we have natural selection between the discus take place and not inbreed the stocks we have, we will have further generations looking like the oirginal wilds.

As for fat...how often do you think discus eat beefheart in nature? ;) Us fishkeepers have the tendency to want to pamper and overfeed our fish...while domestics are used to it, wilds aren't and invariably, the overfed wilds will get fat!

[rfeiller]

check out the composition of the water they are from and the food they eat in nature.

try iron and live algae. make all the difference in the world with apistos and discus.

[rfeiller]

Al on the asian arrowanas you are one zero off on a good one. kinda gets ya don't it?