Training heckels to take dried food

[illumnae]

My heckels that i posted about in another thread seem to have stablized. They are still prone to panic attacks, but they venture out to the front of the tank more often now, sometimes to greet me when i stick my face in front of the tank to look at them. Other times, they still hide at the back though. They've lightened their colour most of the time now, though 2-3 will remain black for awhile after a panic attack before lightening up again.

I figured since I've had them for coming 3 weeks now and they seem more stable, now may be a good time to train them to take dried foods (NLS Discus and Thera+A formulas). I've tried soaking the pellets in bloodworm juice, using some flour to "stick" the pellets to the bloodworm and introducing dithers to eat the pellets so that the discus can learn that the pellets are food. So far none have worked and I think the discus haven't even eaten a single pellet. The devour the frozen bloodworm piggishly, but at the end of it all i see a small scattering of pellets on the sand that will eventually be devoured by the dithers.

Is starvation the only way? I'm intending to make NLS pellets their staple in the long run.

[Eddie]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to make NLS pellets their staple diet? Thanks

Eddie

[illumnae]

for convenience :) we don't have ready access to live foods here in Singapore, and frozen foods are bulky and don't go into the autofeeder. i also believe dried foods give a better range of what the fish needs - frozen bloodworm is like junk food to me. I also don't want to go through the hassle of making beefheart mix (or any other form of mix)

I believe NLS to be the premium dried food, bar none. Hence, i'm trying to wean the heckels onto them :)

[Eddie]

Ah, okay...I just thought it was the norm or something. I've just got mine to kill my tuna/shrimp mix and he does not mess around. I'm hoping to fatten him up big time. I'm also feeding FBW and freeze dried Mysis Shrimp.

Thanks for the reply
Eddie

[illumnae]

anyone have tips? :) I just started the starvation regime today...no more worms and only feeding pellets 3 times a day, doing daily water changes to remove excess pellets

[plecocicho]

Try feeding mix of bloodworms and pelletswith slowly progressing pellets precentage.

[illumnae]

I tried...mixed the bloodworms with pellets and in went the mix...after 2 minutes, all the bloodworms are gone, and a neat pile of pellets lay on the ground. these fish are smart!

[illumnae]

36 hours into starvation regime...fish have been begging me for food by the glass, but still refusing to eat the pellets...as of this morning before i left for work, they were sulking at the back. I'm feeling sorry for them at this point :( Anyone have any other tips aside from the mixing of pellets into bloodworms (which doesn't seem to work for my fish)?

[TankWatcher]

I've had my heckels since March & they completely ignore pellets. I hope it works for you, I think others have succeeded - but I hear it can be tough to get the wilds to recognise this weird stuff as food. Funny - they seem to recognise beef heart straight away LOL

[Moon]

I've had my Heckels two years now. It took a while for them to eat flake food. I tred various types over a few months and one day tried Aquarian from a sample package. They ate this. So they get Aquarian flake now in the mornings. They eat it over a period of a few hours when I am away at work.
HTH

[Apistomaster]

Heckels sure are fickle.
I feed Aquarian flakes to my Grindal worm cultures and never tried it on the Discus.
I recommend continuing to feed frozen blood worms. They are not a junk food if they have been stored properly at all times. Heckels usually take to Tetra Color Granules(formerly color bits).
It is by far the highest priority to allow your new Heckels to eat all of whatever food they like best than to worry or try to change their minds at this time. Think in terms of months not days and weeks. In time, Heckels will accept nearly every fish food you can buy but do not starve them!
These first weeks and months are all about rehabilitation from their ordeals of capture and transit through the distribution chain where no one feeds the fish because fish shipped with food in them foul the water and arrive dead. They have been kept that way for at least 2 or 3 weeks before they arrived at your LfS and for adolescent Heckel Discus, that is an eternity of starvation. Their stomachs shrink and they are often unable to eat more than small portions fed frequently. That is why live worms are such a good initial food for newly imported discus. Live foods trigger the predation instincts and worms, mosquito larvae, Daphnia and blood worms remain alive until they are eaten.
You are more fortunate than I think you have yet to realize that your Heckels accepted frozen blood worms right from the start. Many wild discus come in so starved they can't eat and die. Most wild discus refuse all but live food at first. You just build on the diversity of the diet ever so gradually at their own pace. If frozen blood worms is all they ate for 3 months it will be much better than alternating foods they eat with foods they don't. I remember that my Heckels only took live black worms during their first week, then they began eating small amounts of frozen blood worms and a few weeks later, they were eating freeze dried blood worms from the surface. They were not eager to eat any pellet foods until I had had them about one month. They will be living for many years for you but only if you give them what they want right now. In time, their native curiosity will lead them to try any food you feed your fish. You will find which are their favorites and be able to develop a balanced diet around them.
It will soon be close to four years that I have had my current group of 10 Heckels and the only foods I have tried that they refuse to eat are frozen Daphnia, frozen Cyclops, Frozen Mysis and any Krill. My Heckels are large adults and even though they are so large they eagerly eat newly hatched live brine shrimp I feed to the Green Neons, Paracheirodon simulans!
My Heckels were only about 3-1/4'" in diameter when I bought them.

[Eddie]

Hi Larry,

Although I goofed and only picked up one wild Heckel from the LFS a month ago because the others did'nt look too well. My Heckel eats everything! Initially, the first week he only ate FBW. Now, I put anything in the tank, he devours it like the others. The others are Heckel Crosses. He loves my seafood mix and getting some good size on him in only a month! I am glad he is not a finicky eater. I believe it has alot to do with the other Discus. When he sees the others going bananas over all types of food, he just follows suite. I am lucky I guess. :angel:

Eddie

[illumnae]

thanks for the advice larry :) I was about to abandon the starvation today as I can't bear to starve them beyond 3 days....the good thing was that these guys were already thick and fat from my conditioning them for 2 weeks, that's why I dared to starve them for 3 days. The good news is, this morning i saw one of them pecking at the ground after i threw the pellets in...i hope this means that it's learnt to take the pellets as food! I'll observe again after work tonight, and if they don't...i'll start on fbw again and try again at a later date

[illumnae]

good news! 3 of the 7 have been observed grazing at the NLS pellets. Should I feed fbw now for the other 4, or persevere until all eat? I'm afraid throwing fbw in now will negate the training

[illumnae]

An update:

at least 4 of them are taking dried food now. I've noticed a weird thing. The heckels are usually very peaceful with each other. At feeding time, however, they start chasing each other and pecking at each other...is this normal or should i be worried? Once the food is all gone, they go back to chilling together.

This is why I can only confirm 4 are eating. I saw 4 grazing at the same time before some chasing occurs and they all get mixed up, before 1-2 start grazing again...the most I saw grazing at any one time was 4. will they all learn soon, or should i be worried about the remaining 3?

[Fishworm]

my heckles get VERY agressive with each other at feeding time. they all stay together in their driftwood most of the time, with only a little chase or peck every once in a while.

but once the food hits the water, the fight is on. :D lots of chasing and pushing and pecking and body waving. it's really interesting to watch.

[illumnae]

that's a relief to hear...thanks!

[Ed13]

I really like NLS and beleive it to be the one of the best comercially available foods, so hopefully they'll take to it.

[mckchu]

Have you tried Freezed-dried food? My heckels eat freezed dried brine shrimps and freezed dried bloodworm readily.

Because I mixed my wild greens with the heckels (sorry - limited space so can't separate them to different tanks) ... the heckels followed the green at feeding time and started pecking the FD food once they settled in. Initially they spit them out but only after a day or so, they started eating them too.

For FD BS - I press it against the glass, the heckels start picking on them before my hand is out of the water! For FD BW - they tend to float more, and the heckels love picking them off the surface all day long (see another post I submitted on surface feeding with heckels).

Only 1 of my heckels managed to take Tetra Bits, but all of them eat the FD food.

QED

[illumnae]

I haven't used freeze-dried food. I've used frozen bloodworms though :) My current food of choice is NLS Discus formula, though if I'm unable to find a source for a 5lb bucket soon, I may be forced to switch to JBL Novobits due to cost...these Heckels go through alot of food very quickly once they learn to eat it!

I agree with you that the presence of other fish in the tank eating the food helps the heckels to learn that this small brown lump that's thrown into the tank is food...mine learnt from the tetras and corydoras.

As an update, I know for a fact that 6 of the 7 are eating. At any one time after I throw in the food, I see 6 of them pecking away on the ground. I haven't observed the Heckels long enough to identify them by marking to see if the 7th non-eating one is always the same fish. However, none of the Heckels are dangerously skinny (which would be expected of a discus that has only had 1 meal of non-NLS food for the past 1.5-2 weeks...I treated them to live brine shrimp once last week), and I notice the 7th fish, though not actively pecking, is still chasing the other eating fish, ie. displaying the normal "I'm gonna fight you at feeding time" behaviour that all the other eating heckels display.

I wish I could fully confirm that all 7 are eating, but as of now, I can only confirm 6 with a strong suspicion that all 7 are eating.

[Mr Wild]

Hello there Illumnae
I just fed them up on bloodworm then went cold turkey - no bloodworm - took about 2 weeks they started eating the pellets. Now they get bloodworm once a week as a treat and I have about 5 differetn flakes and granules they get in rotation.

[illumnae]

Cold turkey works :) I'm quite sure mine have all taken to the pellets within a week as they're all quite fat. I also find having dithers and cories eating the food helps them learn that those small brown spheres are actually food

[rowedder]

My heckles eat frozen bloodworms as well as flake. They love the BW's though. I'm really glad they are eating. I have seven red heckles housed in a 150 gallon cube tank with filter sand and driftwood. I am running two marineland 360 filters plus two large sponge filters.

[Apistomaster]

I think Heckels generalize their diets the longer you have had them. We all get our wild Heckels in various degrees of health so restoring them to peak condition is my priority but they usually begin accepting most quality foods eventually.
My group went from live black worms and frozen blood worms to earthworm flakes and freeze dried blood worms after I had them about a month. All my discus have learned to like Tetra Color bits and I use it soaked in UltraCure PX to reduce their load of parasites. I soak the Color Bits in UC PX and make about a week's supply and feed it once a day for a week every six months. Keep the treated food refrigerated. I don't think we can ever completely eliminate the parasites they come in with but periodic treatment for them will help control the problem. The same treatment regime is recommended for dogs and cats and I think it is sound to practice periodic "worming' of wild Discus.

Patience is the key. The Discus will try new foods after they have tamed down and finding foods they won't eat becomes difficult.

[illumnae]

Luckily for me mine tamed down fast after some food deprivation :)

I'll be collecting my earthworm sticks that my cousin helped me obtain from the US (someone should make a business importing them to Singapore so we have a ready supply here!) over the next few days, so hopefully they'll take to that too

[BX]

Try substituting freeze dried tubifex worms for the bw. All my wilds violently shake them cubes till all the worms are loose and then go to town. Once they are acceepting this you can get them on your home made mixes and eventually color bits and other dry foods.

[Gordon C. Snelling]

My heckles went to flakes and pellets with no coaxing at all. They still get a lot of worms, but prepared foods are taken as readily as worms.

[illumnae]

Amazingly, my heckels now prefer NLS over frozen bloodworms! They attack the NLS voraciously but pick at the bloodworms

[Eddie]

Amazingly, my heckels now prefer NLS over frozen bloodworms! They attack the NLS voraciously but pick at the bloodworms

Yup thats the way it is. I think NLS is better than FBWs anyways. ;)

Best with them Illumnae and update with some photos when you can

Eddie

[lemondiscus]

Mine did not take to ANY dry produced food right away. I had to do the following:

1st week - Live Blackworms mostly with Frozen Bloodworms
next few weeks - weened down on the Live Blackworms and fed Frozen Bloodworms reguraly.
Next few weeks - weened down on the Frozen Bloodworms and added more dry food feedings.

Now I have all but 2 that LOVE the dry food (Tetra Bits). Of those 2, 1 of them will pick at the Tetra Bits from time to time, the other will only eat them if I put them all on a hunger strike for a few days.... I still have 1 feeding a day that they get Frozen Bloodworms.

I have noticed though that the Heckels do eat strange things compared to the Domestics!!! I have caught my Heckels eating broken pieces of Cabomba, Small Duckweed, Beard Algae, BG Algae and other small vegetation they can get a hold of.... I found that strange so I am not as concerned about the one that eats mostly Bloodworms as he/she is getting its vegetation from real plants... (balanced meal :) )

[plecocicho]

You were not alone in that kind of thinking, but the long and systematic research of Heiko and others clearly showed taht discus are omnivors with clear orientation to herbivorism. By all three species those food items were most important: detritus/allochtonus plant matter (seeds, fruits, flowers)/autochtonus plant matter (algae)/ terrestrial invertebrates/water invertebrates. First had the largest precentage in volume of the stomach, the last the leat percentage in stomach.
;)