Is my planted tank ok for Heckel?

[bearnuc]

i've setup a planted tank and wonder whether it would be ok to host a school of Heckel which i've been falling in love with. Heckel Shipment will arrive end of this month (jan'09) and they will b QT for a month or so before moving in with me so my tank have time to get a bit more mature (2/3months) I'm looking to get 8 blue face Heckel in total (size 5"-6").
My concern is that my tank does not have a lot of hiding/overhanging shady area except for the middle/back part hence the fish have to stay out-of-shade for 8hrs a day and the tank uses 2x150 MH lighting which is obviously rather bright for the heckels. Would this condition be too stressful for the fish?
Moreover, I'm running chiller for the tank and to get temp at 25'c/77'f at all time with little/no fluctuation. Can Heckel tolerate this condition?
Lastly, looking for schooling fish that compliments Heckels stripe pattern/coloration, any recommendation?
Here is the detail of my tank
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1386/img0826hb6.jpg
4'x2'x2' ( good size for 8 adult heckel?)
CO2 System (3 bubble/Second) (is it too harmful for heckel? current livestocks are doing ok)
Current livestock
12x Corydoras Pulcher
20x amano (yamato) shrimp
10x Otocinclus affinis
*Water parameter will b change to suit Discus (soft/PH 6.0-6.5) with RO/DI mix & Peat Moss*

:) I just want to watch happy Heckel when i get home from work


Cheers
Ted

[Eddie]

Hi there Ted!

Welcome to simply and very nice set-up you have there. I wouldn't be the person to preach to you on how to keep heckels, thats Heiko's job. Also, I will mention that if you haven't read his book, he will tell you to buy it and read it.

One thing that I do know from reading and others suggestions is that a heckel biotope would consist of a sand substrate bottom, driftwood and floating plants on the surface. I know that the temperature of the tank should be around 82F. Other than that, others will fill in.

Take care and enjoy
Eddie

[Triadtropz]

your going to need to lose the chiller first off. and start cycling the tank at a higher heat, maybe 82-83..its a nice set-up overall..

[TankWatcher]

Beautiful tank. You've done a great job. Is that ADA AS?

I'm no heckel expert, though I do have 2, though not in my planted tank. Most things I read say that heckels prefer a sandy bottom. You could think about creating a beach area in the front in the non planted area, using either ADA Bright Sand or silica based pool filter sand. Looking at your beautiful tank makes me think you might be a little reluctant to pull everything out & have all sand, so having a sand area might be a bit of compromise for both you & the heckels.

I have a planted tank with pressurised C02 & my other wild discus are just fine with that, although I do plan on moving them out of that tank soon.

25deg is too low. The temp range for keeping discus is around 27C - 33C (81F - 91F) . For a planted tank, 28C is a good compromise, but not 25C.

Can you float some plants, eg wisteria. This will provide some shade, but I guess that will probably defeat the reason why that you have such strong lights.

Are the amanos very small. They might become an expensive heckel snack.

Tank size is big enough for 8 adult heckels. Are these adults you are getting? If they are juveniles, it might be a better idea to grow them up firstly in either BB or thin layer of sand. You have to heavily feed juvenile discus & in a planted tank, it can be harder to keep the water quality up.

There's lot of helpful experts here, who will give you good advice. Welcome to Simply.

[erikc]

Hi there bearnuc,

beautifull tank but I would strongly advise against the black gravel. The Heckel's will just darken to adapt and blend in to their environnement. You won't get the best colours out of them.

Please always use a fine white sand, your heckels will thank you for it (and it makes for easier maintenance). They spend a lot of time feeding and going through the substaret for their food.

The CO2 is fine for a standard planted tank but you will see with lower PH levels it will be next to useless and very hard to stabilise (I'm talking from experience here !)

Keep the driftwood and plants (lots of gardening in perspective).

All the best with your heckels !!

[bearnuc]

thanks for all the advise, self would like to point out that it's aqua soil by Gex.
Heckels that 'll b getting would be a young (if not) adult so it will be going straight in...
Amano Shrimp are gigantic at 1" + size. Would these still be an expensive treat for the heckel?
so far what i can gather are the followings:
water temp 27'c , can do without any hesitation
will add white sand for heckel to play with around the front part of the layout which would benefit my corydoras as well so it will b a go for sure.

[TankWatcher]

I agree about the sand. It would be best, but you have done such a nice job with your tank.

Hi erikc. What pH level are you meaning? I've had a planted discus tank for maybe 2 years. My C02 is run by a pH controller with target of 6.5pH & all has been pretty stable. I don't try to go lower than 6.5pH. Do you mean it becomes useless & unstable lower than that? My heckels aren't in that tank though. They're in a non C02 tank, but I do have different wilds in the C02 tank.

[erikc]

I've kept heckels in a planted tank with RO water.

Around a PH 6.5 it should keep stable but below (around 4.5-5) sometimes it would drop to 3.5. I had a tunze PH controler but due to the softeness of the water there is no buffering effect and the PH would sometimes drop alarmingly even when the CO2 was cut off.

The Heckels could take it and the other tankmates were corydoras Sterbai who kept on spawning all the time. The Heckels loved that tasty snack on the front of the tank in the morning and I kept fishing young corys out of my canister filter each time I did maintenance :)

So I thought it best to warn about the drops in PH and not to be alarmed,as long as it is for Heckels and other fish used to such waters it should be ok.

Oh, and another thing, Ive never managed to keep amano shrimp and WC discus together. They just ended up being an expensive snack. Please tell me how you they get on ;)

[vera]

Great tank bearnuc!!well done;)
im not sure abt sharp edges of yr drift wood ,discus and especially wilds easy scared would run and defenetely injure themselves ..

[bearnuc]

Great tank bearnuc!!well done;)
im not sure abt sharp edges of yr drift wood ,discus and especially wilds easy scared would run and defenetely injure themselves ..

wow, thanks for pointing out.. what should i do? plant more to cover sharp edges? except when they get their panic attack.. do heckel swim around the branches often?

[Eddie]

do heckel swim around the branches often?

Oh yeah...ALOT


Eddie

[poconogal]

Great tank bearnuc!!well done;)
im not sure abt sharp edges of yr drift wood ,discus and especially wilds easy scared would run and defenetely injure themselves ..
I agree. You did a beautiful job on that tank, it looks great, but there are an awful lot of pointy spears on which the Discus can injure themselves. I'd at least try to trim those points to make them blunt so you don't end up with an impaled Discus! Soneone else pointed out the dark color of your substrate. They will definitely darken themselves in an effort to blend in with that dark substrate. They will do that in a planted tank too, with all the dark green.

[GrillMaster]

Lovely scape ya got there Ted! :thumbsup:

The only thing I would change is the substrate and the water temp. The substrate to white sand and the temp to around 84-86 deg. I personally wouldn't worry to much about the heckels hurtin themselves on the pointed parts of the driftwood. They will do fine swimming through the wood IMO. :)

The C02 wont bother the Heckels. If it looks like it does just subtract a bubble per second. ;) :D

Well Done bud!

[blue acara]

Nice job on the scape looks good. My Heckels are in a tank with about 20-25ppm co2. They also share the tank with 20 amano shrimp, none have been eaten. Heckel will eat very small shrimp but not large amanos.

[vera]

wow, thanks for pointing out.. what should i do? plant more to cover sharp edges? except when they get their panic attack.. do heckel swim around the branches often?

NP,I tie moss balls to sharp parts of wood or a batch of java fern or Java moss:)

[bearnuc]

it's been a year since i set up this tank and waited for shipment of my long awaited blue face heckel. Finally, it's here today. Sorry about the image quality, my camera is tugged somewhere at home. Will post more photos of them soon.

On a side note, i'll b setting up a grow out tank roughly 36"x24"x18" (laid with sand obviously) since they are quite small at roughly 3".
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2687/aaadb.jpg

[Knot~]

Hi Ted (P'Bear)

your tank is so nice and suit for ur heckels, today i just go to the shop and see the big one, pity me i falled in love with them already.

:angel:

[rich815]

Just curious, why MH lighting when all you have is ferns and mosses?

[bearnuc]

Hi Ted (P'Bear)

your tank is so nice and suit for ur heckels, today i just go to the shop and see the big one, pity me i falled in love with them already.

:angel:
Go get it knot!


Just curious, why MH lighting when all you have is ferns and mosses?
My tank Height is 24" and I would like some flexibility in arranging moss at a ground level with good growth.

[Apistomaster]

You do have a very beautiful planted tank but it really isn't an environment in which Heckel Discus will do their best.

Heckel Discus are odd fish, even by wild Discus standards.
I don't know if they are just recently added or have been in your tank for several months but I can see several which are very emaciated as many wild Heckels are when they are recently imported and the group's general comportment indicates they are not very happy.
The dark substrate doesn't directly harm them but it does make heckels take on a darker shade than most people want and that can also make it harder for an inexperience heckel keeper to recognize or evaluate their condition. Remember, all ill or discomfited wild Discus will turn dark.

Heckel Discus are much happier over a light colored sand substrate and the emaphasis on furishings should be on the wood and much less on the plants. Truly aquatic plants are almost never found growing within the Heckel biotope. The extent of plant growth shown in your 2st photo taken at an earlier stage had about the maximum amount of plants I use in a Heckel tank. I am not such a purist as to go completely without some plants but now, as shown in this latter photo, the plant growth has become excessive. Heckels prefer a lot of open swimming space and your wood is very well suited for them. They would freely swim in and among these branches but they also need broad ares of bare sand to pick sand sift through for food. Some floating plants like Brazilian Pennywort is a good choice.

Heckel Discus will show there best colors over light colored fine grain sand. Their colors will also be best if you keep their water pH at 4.0 to as high as 5.0. I would keep them in mostly RO water with less than 25 ppm Total Dissolved Solids This low of a pH and softness is not very good for Amano Shrimp so I would consider them very optional or forget about them altogether. There are many other species of fish native to Heckel biotopes which make beautiful and peaceful tank mates. One of my favorites are to keep a group of common Checker board Cichlids, Dicrossus filamentosus. When they are kept in very soft acid water the adult are among the most beautiful of the dwarf Cichlids and they are not as much of a bottom hugging species as are the Apistogramma species.
Despite their small size, the Green Neon Tetra makes an excellent Heckel Discus tank mate when they are kept in a group of 30 to 40 specimens.
I recommend changing about 70% of their water every 4th day as adequate. However, I do not feel it is wise to change more than 50% of their water if you elect to change water daily. I think daily water changes are enough to take all the fun out of keeping Discus so I never do it unless I have a lot of fry crowded into a grow out tank and am feeding them very heavy for rapid growth but I digress, as that is in the realm of domestic discus breeding and Heckels are not domestic discus.

I think you need to begin feeding your Heckels any and all of the live foods you can get or culture in your area. They love live California Black Worms, Tubifex worms, White worms, Glass Worms and Blood Worms. Adult live brine Shrimp and Daphnia are well received but are not nutritious enough to make up the main live foods you should be using. Heckel Discus also like earth worm and Spirulina Stick foods. The latter is especilly good for filling the vegetarian portion of the Heckels' diet. They also like a good discus pellet food. I use Tetra Color Bits. Not for enhancing their colors; it won't, but it is a food they like and a good source of vitamins and trace nutrients Discus need. Any Discus pellet made by a reputable manufacturer is just as good. I cannot over stress the benefits of feeding your Heckels plenty of live food. Heckel Discus also like a good commercial or home made beef heart mix but beef heart is a difficult food to feed much of in a planted tank since whenever you feed beef heart often you must do more substrate vacuuming.

I would give some serious thoughts about treating your Heckels for various parasites with metroniadazole, flbendazole and praziquantel for a about 3 weeks. You may be able to save those which are presently wasting away and prevent others from doing the same in the future.

It is obvious that you put a lot of planning and effort into making a beatiful aquatic garden but you didn't put the same degree of preparation into the best ways to receive, treat then maintain heckels in good health over the long run.

[bearnuc]

Thank you for yr thoughts, i've done a lot of research about Heckel myself but for now it will have to go into this planted tank. Couple of plans are as follows:

Tank
36x24x20', Heckel Grow out tank with sand substrate and for easy maintenance. This tank should arrive after new year ( a week/2 to cycle tank) expecting a move in during end of January.

Food
Redundancy of Frozen Bloodworm in my area along with Beef Heart (of which they haven't accepted yet) Btw, more discussion of heckel Live food in a new topic which i would like some input from you all as well. Additionally, i've tried to introduce some Tetra Bit Complete for them to peck on when they had nothing to do.. Mind u, the same lot of Heckel at my LFS had already gobbled up some tetrabit!

Water Work
No problem with RO water as i do have 4 RO Units at home for our own consumption as well as for these babies.

Quarantine
These fishes were ordered from Japan with estimated resting of about a month. My LFS has done the job of further quarantine for another 3 weeks with medications so that wasn't my issue for picking up these babies

Future plan
I would convert this 48x24x24 to b a show tank when the heckel has grown up (obviously with sand substrate and lightly planted), Canister filter might be discarded and Sump Unit (might convert from 36x24x20') will be used with a section for heavily planted area in the sump itself to eliminate excessive Nitrate in the water (like refugium in Reef Tank)

I've deeply fallen in love with heckel!
Any more ideas are much appreciated

[Apistomaster]

Since your Heckels came from a Japanese supplier you undoubtedly have a small fortune wrapped up in them.
Their most pressing need is getting them more and mainly live foods.

Heckels, indeed, all wild Discus are often difficult to switch to new non-living foods quickly so it normally takes them some time to acquire a taste for the new items in their diet.
Live foods in good quantities is the quickest way to get them to put on weight and resume growing well.
Once you overcome solving the live food problems(if any exist) the next thing that is desirable to do is to get your Heckels accustomed to eating the widest variety of foods as you can. This shouldn't be done when they are not already well fed and fattened up.
The best way to broaden their diet is to continue using mostly live foods and introduce small amounts of new prepared foods along with the living foods. Eventually they will accept all the foods you plan to use with equal enthusiasm but this process does take time.

You cannot rely on what your supplier may or may not have done in the way of comprehensive parasite treatment while they were in their care. They do not normally keep any particular group of discus long enough to do a complete course of parasite treatment. The majority will begin selling their discus as soon as they can. They do not like to feed discus due to be shipped out the next day yet they can not let them go unfed. This means the discus tnd to be chronically underfed since their first day of capture until they reach your tank at home, aperiod that can easily be 4 to 6 weeks of chronic malnutrition.
I can see that among a couple of your fish as I'm sure you have, too. Any which have the slightest pinched look above their eyes are poorly nourished. The outline of their skeleton and sunken gut are further confirmation. These specimens are extremely difficult to restore to perfect condition. Often it depends mostly on the will to live of a given fish placed in a much more caring environment. Without that will to live there is no chance of restoration of full health.

[bearnuc]

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8546/26122009049.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5866/26122009039.jpg

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1315/26122009045.jpg

Couple of shots, sorry for the quality of the shots.. they are taken from my mobile phone for now.

[erikc]

Okay, so you stuck with the balck substrate and the plants. Your blueface Heckels will never show their true colours in such an environnement.

As Apistomaster said, you fish due look emancipated. You will have to treta for both gill flukes and internal parasites. That means that your lush vegetation is not going to like it and will die off (it's a choice).

The eyes are dark and cloudy on all of your fish. Aereate well the water and treat them as soon as possible before the damage is irrevocable. Only once have I have managed to fill out an emanciated Heckel out of pure chance (I still do not know why).

Finding food they will eat is urgent, the will always accept bloodworms so do try to find some. I always use corydoras in my Heckel tanks, they seem to entice them more to eat other foodstuffs, but that will be at a later date.

For the moment I would urge you as soon as possible to treat them for the above mentioned parasites. you have invetseted a lot into these fish and they truly are fascinating fish to keep so please do not ignore the warnings you have received.

[gerbill]

Hello Bearnuc,
Just like to add my agreement to Larry and EriKc earlier comments,I think your planted tank looks fantastic, but you have to make a decision between plants or Hecklels at the moment,the plants look to be thriving ,the Heckels are struggling.
You seem to have a large group in your tank, if they were my fish I would split into two groups in separate tanks and raise the temp to 82/83 c.then monitor the fish,treat with medication as all ready stated and feed little and often ,live food is always best it seems to stimulate them to hunt.
I would ditch the plants for now,these are only my opinions
I wish you all the very best
Bill

[bearnuc]

forgot to elaborate that LFS guy (whom is a good friend of mine) had already treated them with Aquapharm No.1 (worm out) for 3 weeks since their arrival from japan. I'm not sure whether they should be treated for internal bacteria as well. Most of my fish undergone this QT/medication (my fish guy has more tanks/equipment than mine) prior to being added to my tank. Appreciate any input here as i don't feel quite comfortable medicating them for a prolong period.

As for food, it has been FBW for the past few days and they enjoyed those red worm so much that they are willing to take a bite of feeding cone during the morning and Forceps during evening when i'm around (i rather use forceps than my hand as i'm a bit hygenic towards my fish) atm, they are doing great, 2 blocks per meals, 4-5 meals per day (1 before i went to work, and 3-4 meals (planned) depends whether i get back home early). No sign of weight loss, between eyes are still curved and not concaved, slightly on a lean side for some of them. Mind you, i only had them since Christmas day and my fish guy had done a great job caring for them prior to my pick up.

Their Feces looked ok, dark and hard until they broke off into those worm casing when they did that pelvic fin flapping thingy to get rid of their feces.

They swam around the tank quite often, though i've noticed a bully amongs this school of heckel. Too bad, he/she has a good body shape and doubt i'll trade it for a new heckel ( though there are a few nice looking ones at the shop)

There are a few scratches and torn fins here and there (no deep cut/open wound) but i'm not that worried about it cause nature will take it course to heal itself.
A few issues about their eyes due to some rough handling somewhat, some of them had a slight cloudy eyes (not inner eyes but outer part), any ideas whether the condition will wear off over time with some TLC?

Love all the inputs from you all..
Just had a good news about the growout tank, it will b arriving at my front door on 6th jan.

[Apistomaster]

My recommendation would be to place all your Heckels in a bare quarantine tank and begin treating them simultaneously with metronidazole+praziquantal+flubendazole for one month. I would keep them in quarantine until they have healed all wounds and regained all their body weight. This could take about 3 months. I don't recommend using any antibiotics.

If you insist on trying to restore your Heckels to full health in your planted tank I think you will end up loosing most of them and those that survive will not be as well recovered as if they had been given the recommended treatment.

I have been using this treatment regime to all my new wild Discus and fancy plecos for several years with very good results. It does not harm the fish and they have gone on to be productive breeders.. Not my Heckels because they are just an intrinsically very difficult species to breed. I would highly recommend using very soft water with a TDS of only about 25 ppm and pH of 5.0. They are much more disease resistant when kept in water similar to their natural environment. While it is commendable they your source began treating them you can't rely on that as being sufficient. It seems obvious to me they were not given enough time to recover their lost body mass.

[AlexR]

I made quite the same experience (coloring issue, not the medical). I post picture for you. The same group of young wild caught Tefe.

First on dark substrate (Amano) and then the same group on white sand...

Alex

[erikc]

My recommendation would be to place all your Heckels in a bare quarantine tank and begin treating them simultaneously with metronidazole+praziquantal+flubendazole for one month. I would keep them in quarantine until they have healed all wounds and regained all their body weight. This could take about 3 months. I don't recommend using any antibiotics.

If you insist on trying to restore your Heckels to full health in your planted tank I think you will end up loosing most of them and those that survive will not be as well recovered as if they had been given the recommended treatment.

I have been using this treatment regime to all my new wild Discus and fancy plecos for several years with very good results. It does not harm the fish and they have gone on to be productive breeders.. Not my Heckels because they are just an intrinsically very difficult species to breed. I would highly recommend using very soft water with a TDS of only about 25 ppm and pH of 5.0. They are much more disease resistant when kept in water similar to their natural environment. While it is commendable they your source began treating them you can't rely on that as being sufficient. It seems obvious to me they were not given enough time to recover their lost body mass.

This is some very good advice indeed. I would do the same and don't forget that with Heckels this take time, patience and a lot of care.

[poconoboss]

You mentioned getting a growout tank and putting sand in it.

If you are going to go through the effort to have a seperate growout tank, it should really be bare bottomed. I completely understand people not liking bare bottoms in their main display tank (I know I don't).

However, a seperate tank specifically meant to grow out your fish (hence, heavy feeding) should really be BB for ease of cleaning.

[bearnuc]

Just a quick update
all 10 Heckels are doing well, been feeding on FBW for the time being. Some had cloudy eyes which had been cured by now from regular water change. No clamp fins though most of them showed sign of aggression towards one another, pretty active i would say.

Anyone came across the relationship between fish colors and aggression? though i have taken out Black Background and only left with dark substrate. Heckels still showed pretty dark pattern (not black and slimey). Wonder if it's light substrate they would show less aggression towards each other since most fishes gets darker and color get more intense when they are aggressive. In this case, dark substate made them dark and not themselves being aggressive..


My growout tank would b arriving this saturday (16/01)
I'm still debating whether to go BB or using sand substrate. I'm not a fan of BB tank at all. Personally i believe that the more the tank imitate nature, the less stressful fishes are.

[Apistomaster]

Since your Heckels showed signs of prolonged malnutrition and disease an early indicator of which fish will recover is which of the thin ones are noticeably fuller after eating. If you can't see any bulge in their bellies then they are still not yet eating enough or parasites are hampering the assimilation of nutritients.

There is no behavioral difference between Heckels over light colored or dark color substrate assuming they are all in equally good health.

It is not a problem to use a thin layer of fine white sand. Just use barely enough to cover the bare bottom glass. I add some pieces of wood branches and perhaps a potted Amazon Sword Plant. I too dislike an entirely bare tank and believe wild discus are able to adjust to aquarium life better when given some basic elements of a natural setting. A few floating plants are also appreciated by them. The 3 medications I recommended before may be used without harming the plants or biological filter.

[erikc]

The aggresion is due to the fact that the pecking order has not been established yet. This takes time and slowly you will see a dominant fish taking first place in the group (if you are lucky it might be a male and a female defending a territory, but I think we'll leave that until later).

It's true that a bare bottom tank will make your heckel's more skittish, I always prefer covering it up.

Plants and wood have to be carefully planned so as not to offer complete hiding places, other wise you will never see your fish.

But you should really start treating them as soon as possible ....

[Knot~]

Hi P'Bear

How's ur heckel now ? mine is healthy and greedy.

just to let u know mine is in the bared buttom the color was so nice, will show u the pic later.

[bearnuc]

sorry, i haven't updated this thread.
Heckels are in somewhat proper place now.
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/8238/img0462z.jpg

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1362/img0478q.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/351/img0488r.jpg

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9529/img0498on.jpg

[erikc]

Well done, I think that the it's time now to concentrate on the feeding regime and to wait for their colours to show up !!

The overhead light seems a bit strong so some floating plants will be welcome, but the overall layout is axactly what is needed. I really like the plants on the wood. Hmmm ... gives me a few ideas.

I am honestly pleased for you and your heckels, you are not going to regret this now. Keep up the good work and keep posting !

[bearnuc]

i hardly turned on those light so heckels r living in a dimmed environment ;) those plants and bogwood r temporary as im waiting for another bogwood set to sink. I am currently having a problem trying to teach them how to take dried food. Each feeding i would put in 2-3 sinking pallets and heckels won't tounch it till it's very soft and broke apart. Those got swept to this collection area where it's one of the heckel's guarded territory and that's the only heckel that was grazing on the sinking bits. Any suggestion on this problem? i don't dare to turn off my filter as oxygen might be depleted ( and i might forget to turn it back on which would caused a big lost)

[erikc]

Since you don't have any other heckels (from another tank) that are used to eating dried food ther are a few other options available :

- You will be needing a cleanup crew eventually, what I recomend is a small shoal of corydoras catfish (6 or 7). they will willingly go for any food and the heckels will eventually go for it. they will make a good addition to the tank and eat any leftovers.

-If you feed them frozen BW, defrost them in a small bowl or cup and add a pinch of the dried food with it. Pour the contents into the tank, the heckels should automatically go for the BW and will eat some of the dreid food.

It will take time fand patientce for them to get the association dried food = food. But if you combine the two above you should be able to make the transition.

I honestly don't recomend starving them since heckels are really some of the most stubborn fish I have ever had and they will not take to it too well. They've have had a hard time and what the need most is food, so just stick to what they prefer at the moment and gradually change their diet.

[yashaswibs]

You have some great looking Heckels. I have some questions that will help me.
1. How long were they in the planted tank?
2. Did they show any signs of improvement in that tank itself?
3. How long have you had them in Bare bottom tank?
4. Do you have a water change regimen, if so how much/how often?
5. What is your level of expertise in keeping discus in general and Heckel in particular?
6. I did not see a TDS value or I might have overlooked?
7. Did you add any Praziquantel/Albendazole/Fembendazole- if so what is the rationale behind it- none of the above drugs have any transcutaneous absorption and dissolution in water would dilute it enough that mean inhibitory concentrations probably will not be reached. Metronidazole does liquify but the same holds true for it too.

I am planning on doing exactly what you have done- keeping Heckels in heavily planted tank and I am not sure if it is such a good idea but I would love to try it.

Your post is a learning experience for me.
Thanks.

[Disgirl]

grazing on the sinking bits.

Beautiful, simple and clean tank! Just soak the pellets in a cup of tank water for a few minutes until they are soft, then pour them into the tank in several areas so all fish have a chance to eat them.
Barb:)

[Eddie]

Tank and Heckels look fabulous! Can't wait to see them in the future. Please keep us updated on them.


Take care!

Eddie

[Apistomaster]

I don't post much anymore but I had to comment about the antihelminthics and anti-flagellates used to treat wild tropical fish.
As one with a good deal of experience before and after the advent of the use of these drugs on fish I can say there is a good deal of empirical evidence and a lot of saved money that made me a believer. The mechanisms by which these drugs are transported inside fish to reach therapeutically useful levels is not clear to me either due to their poor solubility characteristics but somehow it happens.
I have seen greatly reduced losses among the small and expensive pleco species I keep and breed ever since I adopted the routine use of a combination of praziquantel, flubendazole and metroniadzole. Before I used them, when I would by 10 or 12 specimens for breeding of newly imported fish I frequently had massive losses.
I bought 10 wild Hypancistrus zebra last summer and everyone is still thriving. They cost more than any discus. That is just one example but is typical of my results nowadays.
These drugs seem to be effective at a wide range of concentrations and apparently innocuous to fish so they they present no risk and you have everything to gain.
It seems that even if the drugs are merely in suspension that the fish are able to ingest them in sufficient amounts to be useful and if the fish will eat medicated food then so much the better.
I have used this particular drug combination on a group of 10 small Heckels which I sold last year after having them more than 4 years and I used them on my 6 wild Alenquer Discus which are coming up on year 2 in my tanks.
These various parasites are almost certainly not completely eliminated by even semiannual treatments but I don't think it is unreasonable to do so. It bothers the parasites a heck of lot more than the parasites bother the fish.
You all can do what you want with your wild discus but I have seen such a difference between the days before and since their use that I am never going back to not using them.

I forgot to mention that unlike antibacterial drugs these other classes of drugs don't seem to have any negative effects on plants and biological filters which is a big plus. Unfortunately the drugs do not work on Ich or finrot types of disesaes but that would be asking too much.

[yashaswibs]

Thank you for your detailed reply to the antiparasitic medication question.

I appreciate you sharing your experience with these fishes and so we do not have to go through the same teething troubles that you did.
I do have some hypothesis on why it works but suffice it to say that it does and so should be used.

Thanks again.

[bearnuc]

Since you don't have any other heckels (from another tank) that are used to eating dried food ther are a few other options available :

- You will be needing a cleanup crew eventually, what I recomend is a small shoal of corydoras catfish (6 or 7). they will willingly go for any food and the heckels will eventually go for it. they will make a good addition to the tank and eat any leftovers.

-If you feed them frozen BW, defrost them in a small bowl or cup and add a pinch of the dried food with it. Pour the contents into the tank, the heckels should automatically go for the BW and will eat some of the dreid food.

It will take time fand patientce for them to get the association dried food = food. But if you combine the two above you should be able to make the transition.

I honestly don't recomend starving them since heckels are really some of the most stubborn fish I have ever had and they will not take to it too well. They've have had a hard time and what the need most is food, so just stick to what they prefer at the moment and gradually change their diet.
Once i've trained these babies to take various food other than FBW, i'll be adding some C.Astropersonatus. In the mean time, my heckels are taking their own sweet time in munching seafood mix and dry pallets (roughly 2hrs)

You have some great looking Heckels. I have some questions that will help me.
1. How long were they in the planted tank?
2. Did they show any signs of improvement in that tank itself?
3. How long have you had them in Bare bottom tank?
4. Do you have a water change regimen, if so how much/how often?
5. What is your level of expertise in keeping discus in general and Heckel in particular?
6. I did not see a TDS value or I might have overlooked?
7. Did you add any Praziquantel/Albendazole/Fembendazole- if so what is the rationale behind it- none of the above drugs have any transcutaneous absorption and dissolution in water would dilute it enough that mean inhibitory concentrations probably will not be reached. Metronidazole does liquify but the same holds true for it too.

I am planning on doing exactly what you have done- keeping Heckels in heavily planted tank and I am not sure if it is such a good idea but I would love to try it.

Your post is a learning experience for me.
Thanks.
1. roughly 6 Weeks
2. planted tank - they aren't as skittish but very skittish with BB Tank and less skittish after sand is added
3. I only had them for 4 days
4. 50% daily for the first 2 weeks then 50% every 2 days.
5. i'm no expert tbh but did a lot of research and readings
6. personally, i don't take TDS measurement , cause there is no way i can reduce the number if i found out it's high.. I would rather maintain a constant water parameter using the same water that is most convenience to me
7. I did 2 courses of Prazi for now and will do some metro once my fishes accept other food


Tank and Heckels look fabulous! Can't wait to see them in the future. Please keep us updated on them.


Take care!

Eddie
thank you eddie, yr post regarding medication helps me a lot as well.

Apistomaster - thanks for sharing yr experience and knowledge :angel:

[erikc]

Okay, looks like things are set. Just be patient and enjoy your Heckels !!

[bearnuc]

Okay, looks like things are set. Just be patient and enjoy your Heckels !!
Now i'm hoping that they are more eager to eat cause it's been 3 days and i could only see 3 heckels out of 10 with big belly after feeding :( i'll give it another week and will b giving them some FBW.
A little update on the tank scaping, no question about the rock pls... they are secured and wont' fall down! should take a week or so for the bogwood/roots to sink. Hopefully it's a bit more like their natural habitat.
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3393/img0537s.jpg

[erikc]

Teddy,

that's a truly gorgeous heckel setup now, you should feel proud of yourself.

I wouldn't do any more changes at the moment because they really need to settle in now.

Okay, IMO I would add the cleanup crew soon, it will make the heckels more curious about their environnement and they will come out more (yes they are very curiuos fish when they get adapted).

P.S. Put the outflow from your filter closer to the surface, there is a slight film forming and you want to break the film in order to have a proper oxygen exchange at the surface of the water.

[yashaswibs]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. This will help me in future efforts.

What happened to the driftwood with moss? That looked really good.

The Heckels look great.

[Alok]

Question for people who advised against black substrate: is the dark substrate = dark discus true only for Heckels or for any discus e.g. red turqs or snakeskins etc. I always thought dark substrate will look better and fish will feel more comfortable too (little light reflected from the bottom of tank), but could never afford it. I finally have set up a discus tank with black substrate (not purchased the discus yet, but have red turqs in mind), but want to make sure that the colors would come out the best using black substrate (and black background). I can see that heckels look better against light background, but don't know if that would be the case with red turqs too... Please let me know. Thanks.

[Apistomaster]

Another method of holding down wood that isn't completely water logged I like to use is to wedge a couple of 1/4 inch wood dowels cut very slightly longer than the transverse inside tank dimension. These can be sprung into a firm position holding down the wood. i like that method because it is easy to do, unobtrusive and firmly holds down the wood. The rock weight strikes me as an accident waiting to happen.

I prefer Heckels over white sand to black. I tried using locally collected basalt fine gravel from a creek and the Heckels stay much darker colored. Here are a couple of photos comparing dark and light substrate using the same 10 Heckels. The color of the substrate has no effect on intraspecific aggression. Heckels aren't all that aggressive towards on another ime, as compared to the other species.
Over basalt:
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Heckels0001rse.jpg
Over "Torpedo Beach" quartzite sand:
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/P8210047.jpg

[bearnuc]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. This will help me in future efforts.

What happened to the driftwood with moss? That looked really good.

The Heckels look great.

they trapped too much debris so i kinda removed it, plus roots are what i had in mind all along

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5900/mg9894.jpg

A little bit of an update, 4 out of 10 are loving Tuna/Shrimp Mix and also had some dried pallet (krill meal) but the rest r still on FBW. Hope they will get converted soon :angel:

tbh, i don't really like the color of heckel in the sand substrate i used as it turned them yellow and no bars!!!.. love to see middle bar of a heckel but they only showed them when frightened.

[Eddie]

Fish look GREAT!!!


Eddie

[Alok]

Thanks Larry (Apistomaster) for the two photographs of the same group of heckels. I can see the difference clearly, but I am not sure which one I really like. The red comes out better in light colored substrate but the blue comes out better in the dark colored substrate, they look almost iridescent in black substrate (like cardinal tetras).... :)

The fish looks really handsome though :)

[Apistomaster]

The real reasons why I switched the substrates were that the local dark material was increasing the hardness and pH to unacceptable levels reaching 450 ppm TDS and ph of 8.0 but the quartz was chemically neutral. The pH remained unchanged using the quartz. White quartz is more natural as their biotope but as long as dark substrates are chemically neutral then the only thing that matters is your personal preference.

[TankWatcher]

Those heckels have come such a long way from your first pictures. You have done a really nice job caring for them. I like your driftwood, hanging down like roots, and the sand is so nice and white.

Any chance of a full tank shot?

[Apistomaster]

I sold all those Heckels last April but here you are.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Heckelsfeedbag0003.jpg

[erikc]

they trapped too much debris so i kinda removed it, plus roots are what i had in mind all along

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5900/mg9894.jpg

A little bit of an update, 4 out of 10 are loving Tuna/Shrimp Mix and also had some dried pallet (krill meal) but the rest r still on FBW. Hope they will get converted soon :angel:

tbh, i don't really like the color of heckel in the sand substrate i used as it turned them yellow and no bars!!!.. love to see middle bar of a heckel but they only showed them when frightened.

Don't worry, they will now take time to colour up, patientce is all you need.

[TankWatcher]

Hmmm, I like the colour of your heckels over the sand, bearnuc

[bearnuc]

something different for u all ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro-J8OmY2Bc

and FTS

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2918/img0554x.jpg
** sorry about the quality, i'm charging my camera atm for better fts later