Heckel Diet

[Dan S]

Hello,

I know much has been talked about Heckel diet on here and that fruit plays a large part in it.

So Im thinking of blending some fruits like bananas, mangoe, blueberries and strawberries then freezing it in a slab like you do with beefheart and breaking of a cube whenever I want to feed the fish.

My query is, what else would you put in the blender with the fruits and what would you use to bind it together?

Im sure someone is already doing something like this but Ive never tried it before and would like any advice i can get.

Thanks

Dan

[William Palumbo]

Hi Dan...That's a good idea in theory...But not sure how you would go about doing it. Fruit in general, or at least the ones you mentioned have a large amount of water. Blending them would be messy as I think so would feeding a mixture of that. I know a lot of people use un-flavored gelatin to bind beefheart and such together. I see the all fruit thing being like a big smoothie, which could really cloud a tank up. Tho I don't feel that that diet alone would be a good thing, if there was a way to supplement it with some "meat", like fish or worms, that would be better. Maybe grind some fresh fish up in your fruit mix or fresh shrimp, which turns to a paste and helps to bind food together. I guess you would just have to try it out and see, and maybe improve on it as you go, or as you see what it needs...Bill

[Dan S]

Hello Bill,

Your right about the fruit just being a smoothie, but if you add some granulate to soak up some of the liquid and it has been suggested that shrimp and mussel along with spirulina powder binds together very well, but you dont put it in the blender, you mash it instead.

Obviously I havent tried this yet so I dont know, this is just a suggestion put forward by someone else on another forum.

In terms of how messy it is in a tank, I suppose thats just trial and error, maybe gelatin would be needed to control the mess a little?

I think (but I cant remember where I read it) its Goran who has shown photos of his Heckels (some of the best Ive ever seen) on here that does something like this and I hope he might comment if he does.

Dan

[Eddie]

Hi Dan,

The seafood mix I make uses a banana as the binder. I just make sure the banana is really ripe, like all black. Anyways, my heckels devour it.

I guess it might help to add a good flake to your fruit smoothie or crushed pellets. Something to soak up the juice. Just an idea.

Sounds like a good idea, the fruit blend. Let us know how it goes.

Eddie

[Dan S]

Hello Eddie,

Thanks for the input there. Yes the granules, Im going to try adding these to do exactly what you suggested (and some spirulina powder), soak up some of the liquid, also its just another set of vitamins and minerals which will help.

Im surprised there hasnt been more feedback on this, I thought with the number of Heckel owners on here that more people would have tried something like this.

My Heckels arrive the middle of March (or I should say I collect them then as Discus South is holding them for me for a few weeks) once Im all setup and ready to go, so I have a little time to mess about with some off these ideas between now and then.

Dan

[Eddie]

Hello Eddie,

Thanks for the input there. Yes the granules, Im going to try adding these to do exactly what you suggested (and some spirulina powder), soak up some of the liquid, also its just another set of vitamins and minerals which will help.

Im surprised there hasnt been more feedback on this, I thought with the number of Heckel owners on here that more people would have tried something like this.

My Heckels arrive the middle of March (or I should say I collect them then as Discus South is holding them for me for a few weeks) once Im all setup and ready to go, so I have a little time to mess about with some off these ideas between now and then.

Dan

Sounds great Dan, let me know how it works out.

I have read about adding fruit into their diet but just doing the bit of banana seems to work well for me. I'd be curious to see how a diet of more fruit would affect their colors/development.

Eddie

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dan,


Im surprised there hasnt been more feedback on this, I thought with the number of Heckel owners on here that more people would have tried something like this. I think alot of people would like to try getting their heckels to eat more fruits, but I'm not sure how successful they have been with the fruits that are availible to them.

If I was to try to feed my heckels more fruits I would try mixing them into existing diets as Bill Suggested. I have no idea on if your heckels will go for an all fruit mix..but if I was to try that...I might try a 50% fruit -50% Spirulina mixture or something I have been kicking around and haven't tried yet is to mix fresh fruit blended with a gelatin binder or fresh fruit blended and then add suffient freeze dried fruit....that may soak up the water and bind it.
hth,
-al

[Dan S]

Hello Al,

Im hoping because they are juveniles that Im getting that I will be able to wean them onto something like this. Freeze dried fruit os an exellant idea, not thought of that, what effect does freeze drying have on fruit nutritional value wise?

Im thinking my first attempt is going to be a 50 - 50 mix of fruit and shrimp/mussel then add spirulina powder and granule till the liquid has been soaked up with maybe some vitamins and if it wont bind then try some gelatin in it.

Hello Eddie, I think I said that Im sure Goran does something like this and if you look at his Heckels they are quite simply stunning!!!!


Dan

[Eddie]

Hello Al,

Im hoping because they are juveniles that Im getting that I will be able to wean them onto something like this. Freeze dried fruit os an exellant idea, not thought of that, what effect does freeze drying have on fruit nutritional value wise?

Im thinking my first attempt is going to be a 50 - 50 mix of fruit and shrimp/mussel then add spirulina powder and granule till the liquid has been soaked up with maybe some vitamins and if it wont bind then try some gelatin in it.

Hello Eddie, I think I said that Im sure Goran does something like this and if you look at his Heckels they are quite simply stunning!!!!


Dan

My bad Dan, I missed that....:o

I think a 50/50 would work out well too.

Eddie

[bavaria36]

I have been trying to add fruit & veg to the diet of my wild greens ( and now my heckels ) for some time now but I have not been successfull. The only way I could do this was to mix in some spinach with the BH mix. This has worked quite well.

My new heckels ( still sub-adults ) like the bits of spinach in the mix and I have seen them eating them. I did try a couple of different kinds of fruits this week but they refused them.

Yesterday I tried a ripe avocado. My other discus really went for it but the heckels were not impressed. Later on though, I did see them pecking at the little bits in the sand so I will try this again. Next time I make a new batch of BH mix I plan to increase the amount of spinach and I will blend some ripe fruit into it too.

Aaron

[Eddie]

I have been trying to add fruit & veg to the diet of my wild greens ( and now my heckels ) for some time now but I have not been successfull. The only way I could do this was to mix in some spinach with the BH mix. This has worked quite well.

My new heckels ( still sub-adults ) like the bits of spinach in the mix and I have seen them eating them. I did try a couple of different kinds of fruits this week but they refused them.

Yesterday I tried a ripe avocado. My other discus really went for it but the heckels were not impressed. Later on though, I did see them pecking at the little bits in the sand so I will try this again. Next time I make a new batch of BH mix I plan to increase the amount of spinach and I will blend some ripe fruit into it too.

Aaron

Hi Aaron,

That actually a fantastic idea about the avocado. Mashed avocados are recommended for babies as a first food because they are loaded with essential vitamins/building blocks for brain development.

The seafood mix I make also has spinach and they enjoy it also. I might try to add a little avocado to my next batch of seafood mix.

Thanks for the tip
Eddie

[bavaria36]

Hi Aaron,

That actually a fantastic idea about the avocado. Mashed avocados are recommended for babies as a first food because they are loaded with essential vitamins/building blocks for brain development.


Thanks for the tip
Eddie

One word of warning though. It made an incredible mess in the heckel tank as they did not eat it immediately ( if at all ) . In the other tanks, where the fish seemed to like it and actually fought for it, the mess was not so bad. Also I noticed that what they really liked were the ripest and softest bits.

Aaron

[brewmaster15]

Aaron,
I wonder if you would have better luck with them eating the avocado if you split a whole one and put a big piece in..I mean no ones prepping it for discus in the wild.:) and avocado is so soft they should be able to "graze it".

Dan, Freeze dried is pretty much as nutritious as fresh. Very little is lost.

I wonder if we will one day learn that the fruit being eaten in the wilds isn't really what they are "eating"..... Is it the fruit per se that they are eating in the wild or perhaps its whats eating the fruit as it decays that they are after ( and of course they would be eating the fruit too on a macro level).I'm not saying that they haven't been found to eat fruit in the wild , but I wonder if its more than the fruit they are eating... I say this because wild discus have been shown to eat Algal Periphyton... and I can see some basic similarities between that and "decomposing" fruit.
okay enough speculation on my part...Just thought I'd mention something I was thinking about but have no proof of. Food for thought, if you will.:)

HTh,
al

[Eddie]

Aaron,
I wonder if you would have better luck with them eating the avocado if you split a whole one and put a big piece in..I mean no ones prepping it for discus in the wild.:) and avocado is so soft they should be able to "graze it".

Dan, Freeze dried is pretty much as nutritious as fresh. Very little is lost.

I wonder if we will one day learn that the fruit being eaten in the wilds isn't really what they are "eating"..... Is it the fruit per se that they are eating in the wild or perhaps its whats eating the fruit as it decays that they are after ( and of course they would be eating the fruit too on a macro level).I'm not saying that they haven't been found to eat fruit in the wild , but I wonder if its more than the fruit they are eating... I say this because wild discus have been shown to eat Algal Periphyton... and I can see some basic similarities between that and "decomposing" fruit.
okay enough speculation on my part...Just thought I'd mention something I was thinking about but have no proof of. Food for thought, if you will.:)

HTh,
al

That actually make alot of sense Al, decomposing fruit is loaded with living bugs, maggots, larvae. The fruit is just the shell the discus are breaking into to get to the real good stuff. That is good food for thought.......and for the discus. ;)

Eddie

[bavaria36]

Aaron,
I wonder if you would have better luck with them eating the avocado if you split a whole one and put a big piece in..I mean no ones prepping it for discus in the wild.:) and avocado is so soft they should be able to "graze it".

HTh,
al

I think you may be right. In fact that is what I intended to do when I cut it open yesterday but a whole half would not sink. I should have looked around for a weight but instead I decided to mash it up a bit and drop the flesh into the tanks. Tomorrow I will try what you suggest.

In my opinion ( and according to the literature ) discus are primarily detritus feeders and most likely feed mainly on rotting vegetable matter rather than fresh fruit ( although Heiko does say that he has observed them doing so in the wild ). That is why I think most aquarists are having trouble getting them to eat large quantities of fresh vegetable and fruit matter. The closest we may be able to come then is to try very ripe ( almost rotten ) fruit that has started to decompose. That is what I intend to experiment with.

Aaron

[MostlyDiscus]

Im not a heckel man(YET) but if I were you all I would read Vern Archers posts. nuff said "Stan Lee"

[Dan S]

I have been trying to add fruit & veg to the diet of my wild greens ( and now my heckels ) for some time now but I have not been successfull. The only way I could do this was to mix in some spinach with the BH mix. This has worked quite well.

My new heckels ( still sub-adults ) like the bits of spinach in the mix and I have seen them eating them. I did try a couple of different kinds of fruits this week but they refused them.

Yesterday I tried a ripe avocado. My other discus really went for it but the heckels were not impressed. Later on though, I did see them pecking at the little bits in the sand so I will try this again. Next time I make a new batch of BH mix I plan to increase the amount of spinach and I will blend some ripe fruit into it too.

Aaron

Hello Aaron, Thanks for the feedback there, I to have tried with my Blues to varying degrees of or lack of success, like you I found a food with vegetables mixed in and like you they seem to eat the spinach well.

Dan






Dan, Freeze dried is pretty much as nutritious as fresh. Very little is lost.

I wonder if we will one day learn that the fruit being eaten in the wilds isn't really what they are "eating"..... Is it the fruit per se that they are eating in the wild or perhaps its whats eating the fruit as it decays that they are after ( and of course they would be eating the fruit too on a macro level).I'm not saying that they haven't been found to eat fruit in the wild , but I wonder if its more than the fruit they are eating... I say this because wild discus have been shown to eat Algal Periphyton... and I can see some basic similarities between that and "decomposing" fruit.
okay enough speculation on my part...Just thought I'd mention something I was thinking about but have no proof of. Food for thought, if you will.:)

HTh,
al


Hello Al, very interesting theory, that would make a lot of sense, even if it isnt decomposing on the ground, Im sure fruits will have little critters on them before they fall aswell.

Thnaks again for your thoughts.

Dan

[plecocicho]

Discus have small stomach and relativetelly long intestines, which suggests they are omnivores with a large proportion of plants in their diet (mostly algae, pant detritus and fruits). Heiko wrote tahta some fruits need to be soaked (and especially in acid black and clearwaters partly cooked by the acids) in order to become edible to varous fish species including discus. Even ripe frutis are still rich in vitamens, mierals, sugar and maybe fat acids or even proteins. Any criter, may it be in fruits or periphyton is just welcommed source of proteins. All fish species that feed on periphyton (plecos, mbunas, tropheus, sucking loaches) feed primarelly on algae (small stomach and long intestines are an adaptation to that kind of food type), but other animals that populate algae are important source for proteins also. I would do a sefood mix (DEFINETELLY NOT BEEFHEARTH!!!) maybe prawns and mulloscs with various fruits, algae powder or frozen phytoplankton, lettuce. As a binder i would use real agar, because fish can devaour it better. Using flakes or sticks as a substitute for meat can also be done. Either way, the grren part of mix must prevail. That is my opinion.

[BWDave]

See this link for a recipe for a fruit and veggie mix with agar as the binder (in the Diet section). It was designed for aquatic SA turtles, but should provide some ideas on volumes and procedures for making a gel.

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/podocnemiscare.htm

Dave

[Apistomaster]

Heckel Discus, more than any other Discus species, like Earth Worm and Spirulina Stcks.
They get all the vegetable matter they need from these foods as their staple diet.

My wild Alenquers love the Earth Worm sticks.