nitrates, water changes etc.

[wizzin]

Hi all. I have a 75 gal planted tank that's been running for 7 months or so. It's very stable and I do large (40%-50%) WC ONCE a week. I have no detectable nitrates (haven't for a while) and I dose ferts for the plants. Over the last few weeks I've been gradually bringing the water temp up from 78-80 to 84. The plants are doing good (some algae).

Question: I read a lot about doing big WC 2-3x a week, but we're talking about BB tanks right? I mean, the water is perfect w/ 1 wc a week. Is there really any need to do more? Aside from nitrates, what else am I trying to reduce/eliminate concentrations of?

I have a nice stable environment going here with a cleanup crew (snails, FW shrimp, ottos, cories) and the tanks perams are rock solid. I would hate to throw things out of wack by doing more WC, but I read so much about it, I feel like I should do more.

[j_li8]

is this with or w/o fish in there and how many? if you dont already have fish in there then when you do add them it will change the chemistry of the water due to their waste.

[Graham]

NO3 is only one part of the DOC, dissolved organic carbons/ pollutants in the tank. When we do a water chnage we are diluting fats, carbs, proteins, pheromones, amino acids...all this takes down water quality

[KDodds]

As stated, nitrogenous compounds are only part of what we're diluting with water changes. In tanks in which the biological filter is incomplete (i.e. there is little to no anaerobic filtration) nitrate accumulates at a very rapid rate as ammonia and nitrite are processed. Nitrate that is not processed to free nitrogen can not be outgassed and so needs to be removed. Although nitrate is fairly harmless short term, long term exposure has been linked to some diseases, decreased longevity, etc. It's the other compounds that can accumulate as we top off, feed, etc., that can be more of a problem. With complete biological filtration, we can't really use nitrate as a guide (as much of one anyway), but in most FW set ups, we can. So, we use nitrate accumulation as a guide to tell us what other DOCs and DOMs (dissolved organic compounds and molecules, respectively) might also be accumulting. Planted tanks are another issue entirely, since the nitrogen cycle can be and is interrupted by plant uptake and binding in biomass. So, you're guide, nitrate, is not as functional as it might be in an unplanted tank with an incomplete biofilter. In marine tanks with DSB (Deep Sand Bed) or similar filtration methods, monitoring phosphate can help, as can monitoring corals (like the coalminer's canary), to determine when a water change is necessary. Otherwise, playing it safe is often better than skimping. Of course, every tank is different. You may find that your tank does better with little to no water change, or with daily water changes. For most, though, it's better to err on the side of caution.

[wizzin]

thanks all. A little more info would've helped I suppose.

It's a 75 gal tank. 2 fluval 405's, pressurized co2, 216 watt lighting (only running 2 54watt though) UV on 24/7 (I've been running the UV just to prevent disease).

I kicked this tank off with the filters already being seeded as they were running on a rack system in my garage. It's sort of a typical hi tech tank I guess.

Inhabitants are 20 neon tetras, 6 pristella tetras, 4 cories (mix), countless ghost shrimp (breeding like mad), 2 ottos, 3 bolivian rams and 2 spotted leopard discus (getting along great so far, but I wanted to add 3 more). As in the original post, the tank has been running for around 7 months. I do the wc as stated, 1x per week, though sometimes I'll do 2. No fish loss in 7 months.

I realize I'm into a pretty demanding thing here (plants and discus), but I can't bring myself to do the bb thing. To each his own, and I realize bb is much easier to keep clean, but to me it's kinda pointless to have such beautiful fish in a plain ol bare tank. I love seeing them in a planted tank. I realize they don't have plants in the wild, but these aren't wild discus either. I'm not trying to breed these guys, I just like them and want them to stay healthy.

I was thinking about getting a TDS, but I haven't thoroughly studied the biology of the thing at the micro nutrient level, and what TDS readings mean to plants vs discus. So should I be doing more wc?

[KDodds]

My personal opinion is that I don't believe so. From what you describe, all fish and plants are fine and healthy and nutrient levels are managed well. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke... ;)

[Graham]

How are the nutrient levels managed when we don't know any levels but NO3?

What happened to the proteins and the fats and the carbs and the ..............

[wizzin]

How are the nutrient levels managed when we don't know any levels but NO3?

What happened to the proteins and the fats and the carbs and the ..............

Is there a way to figure out what those levels might be?

Some more perams:

pH - 6.4
NO3 - 0
NO2 - 0
NH3 - 0
KH - 190/200
GH - 6/7

I dose 1x a week (after w/c) w/ micros for the plants, and 3x a week w/ macros.

The tank params are stable and have been since a few weeks after setup, which is why I'm questioning the need to do more w/c. Not that i'm opposed to doing more w/c, I just wanted to get opinions on whether I should or not.

Should this be in the planted section?

[Graham]

For the average hobbyist the easiest way to use a TDS meter or and ORP meter. You have a pretty light bio-load in there and may find that as the bio-load increases you'll want to up the water changes water.

Assuming that you have decent water coming out of the tap, it's a little hard to chnage too much water.

[KDodds]

Actually, no, not without complete and expensive total assays, and even these may not give you specific results (i.e., they might light carbohydrate, but not what kind). Some elements you can test for, copper, magnesium, etc., but I know of no test kits for, say, phenols or tannins. There are several ways to "judge" when a change is necessary besides testing for algal/bacterial nutrients. None are perfect and more "eyes of experience" kinds of things. For instance, film on surface = water change, yellowing water = water change. Different people use different methods, one of them necessarily absolutely right or wrong for the next person. If your fish (and shrimp) are healthy, growing, displaying normal behaviors, chances are you're doing something, really a lot of somethings, right. I you feel you need to perform changes more often, that's a decision you need to make, not someone who has never seen the tank or fish. ;) Especially not when everything seems to be going very well. ;)

[Eddie]

Wizzin,

What is your goal? Do you want a planted tank that has a couple of small discus in it? How big are your discus now? How big are the ones you are going to get? If you are trying to growout big discus, you will have to do more WCs. Mainly because you will be feeding heavier and more often and the water quality will diminish rapidly. So that brings me to my first question....What is your goal?


Eddie

[calihawker]

For the average hobbyist the easiest way to use a TDS meter or and ORP meter. You have a pretty light bio-load in there and may find that as the bio-load increases you'll want to up the water changes water.



Hey Graham,
Does an ORP meter work the same as in a reef tank? And what kind of reading would I be looking for in a heavily planted, moderatly stocked tank?



Steve

[wizzin]

Thanks guys! a lot of helpful insight. My goal w/ the discus (the current 2 are right at 4") is to have healthy fish. Now whether they reach a maximum of 7" or 9" is irrelevant to me. I don't plan to show them or do anything where they'd be put up against other fish to gauge their growth vs someone elses fish's growth. I just want to prevent disease and provide a healthy environment for them.

The discus seem great and happy and don't look stressed at all. They're eating great and even picked some BW's from my fingers. I noticed my Bolivian Rams just spawned again this morning when I was feeding the discus, so things must be happy for them. I did a wc last night, so that's the 2nd one since Sat. I am using a mix of R/O water during wc to keep the pH consistent.

Good point about me figuring out when the wc needs to happen vs someone who's never seen the tank or knows every detail about it telling me.

Is that really a high bio load? I mean I know the fish count is high, but 26 of the 37 or so fish are neons. I am running 2 405's, and while I know they aren't the best filters in the world, that is 2x the recommended filtration.

These fish and this tank are for show only. They're the first thing you see when you walk in my back door. I'm deciding on whether to switch my rack system over to bb and try discus that way too. I've been breeding a misc bunch of fish and offloaded around 500 fish in the fall, so the system is empty and now I think I've caught the discus bug!

This forum is a great resource and I greatly appreciate you guys taking the time to read my nonsense and try to help!

Here's the tank, pre discus. I've gotta get my act together and get some pics of the discus. It's grown in a lot since this pic was taken.

http://www.fishygear.com/75a2.jpg

[KDodds]

You seem to be a lot like me in that as long as the fish are healthy and appear to be content, I'm happy. For some people, that's what the hobby is about, for others it's about breeding, for others still it's about maintaining a biotope tank to exacting specifications in species inclusion and water maintenance. Hey, whatever floats your boat, GREAT, it is your tank to enjoy, after all, right? :) Before my 125 sprung the leak that spurred my interest in keeping Discus, I was keeping ARLC. According to most, my setup would be somewhat less than ideal. Well, my maintenance would be anyway. I intentionally did not perform water changes because every time I did I'd get a new batch of N. brichardi fry. Now, N. brichardi can be hellions, but these guys were truly demonspawn, especially when fry entered the picture. So, all I really did was top off for the longest time, with an occassional water change here or there, maybe 2-4 times per years, and in small amounts. Sometimes, even topping off would get the N. brichardi going. Nitrates were around 80ppm, consistently, but no algae to speak of (thank you mbuna gods). These fish, the N. brichardi, were down from 2 F0 fish acquired some 11 or 12 years ago, with a batch of 6 unknowns thrown in for fresh blood some 6 or 8 years ago. When the tank failed, there were enough generations in there for some mutations to be noticeable, especially when compared up against the routine LFS offerings. Notably, the orange patches on my guys were very much brighter, and they displayed a lot more of a blue sheen and bolder black and white fin margins, even when young, than the LFS fish. As well, a skull mutation occurred that had some fish with facial structures reminiscent of parrot cichlids. FWIW, the 12yo F0 Synodontis mulitpunctatus didn't seem to mind my conditions, either. So, the tank sprung a leak and I had to relocate the remaining (double canister failure not more than a few weeks prior claimed a good deal of fish) fish (to my LFS). The largest N. brichardi, although I warned them, they placed in with other large africans. Well, a week later and they had a set up shop in two locations, keeping a consistent 8" radius. Two weeks later and they have all of the other fish mostly cowering against the glass. I didn't see if they spawned yet, though, but with the presence of rocks, they may very well do so. The minimal body count of N.brichardi prior to the filter failure was about 75, some 24 of which were full adults, the rest of sellable size. My point here is that it is possible, in what others deem "less than optimal conditions" to keep healthy fish and even raise a few fry to adulthood in mixed tanks for many generations. ;) Do what works for you. If your fish appear to be healthy and exhibiting normal behaviors, go with what you're doing. If something seems amiss, change things up. But if everythign is doing well, why change fo rthe sake of change? :)

[Eddie]

How you do WCs affects how your discus grow, plain and simple. If your fish are already grown to adult size, obviously you won't be doing massive WCs. If you have young discus, yes they be healthy without the WCs but they will be stunted. You'll notice when their eyes get to be about the same size as their body. Lessons you learn so if just having healthy discus is your goal, do what you were advised of.

Keeping nitrates low is not the only thing that makes discus grow, it also about fresh water with essential nutrient that have not already been spent.

I guess you will be acquiring some adult discus. Good luck with them and take some pictures when you get them settled in.

Nice looking tank by the way

Eddie

[Roxanne]

Oui tank is nice....driftwood looks a little pointy, non?

Rox

[wizzin]

Oui tank is nice....driftwood looks a little pointy, non?

Rox

yup. I removed it. I liked the look, but I'd hate to come home to

discus-ka-bobs ;)

I'll try to get pics up tonight

[wizzin]

I didn't realize how dirty the glass was until I took these pics. I'm sure it'll make the bb people (heck, probably the whole board)'s head spin and smoke pour out the ears, but that's the reality of plants vs bb I guess.

I really don't care if the eyes on these guys are 1/2 a millimeter bigger than they should be for their diameter. They're perfect in my eyes. I took these prior to yanking the skewers out. I also got handy with the mag float directly after taking these.

One nice thing I've noticed with the diversity in the tank is that there is NOTHIN left after feeding. Between the tetras and the crazy rams, shrimp and snails, every morsel of food is devoured. I've been pretty much spot feeding the discus by dunking my fingers (i wash my hands w/out soap btw) full of goodies. They are cautious, but hungry and come right up to my hands. They're much faster to swim right up to my hands now that they're settling in. They also come flying to the glass when I come by the tank looking for food.

http://www.fishygear.com/discus2.jpg

http://www.fishygear.com/discus3.jpg

http://www.fishygear.com/discus4.jpg

[j_li8]

Looks and sounds good. They appear to be very happy with their suroundings. What kind are they? leopards?

[wizzin]

Looks and sounds good. They appear to be very happy with their suroundings. What kind are they? leopards?

Thanks. It looks better now as I spent a little time cleaning. They were sold as spotted leopards. They're exactly what I was looking for. They're inseparable. They just swim together everywhere. Very peaceful. I was concerned about just having 2, but after watching them in the tank at the lfs, I thought I'd go for it. I contacted them to see if they have more. This lfs isn't just importing. The owner took me in the basement and showed me his breeding setup. Very nice. Lots of BIG healthy discus. I think Moik on here can vouch for that.

I'm hooked. I was fiddling with my rack system tonight getting it ready to be discustised.

Phil

[Eddie]

Hi all. I have a 75 gal planted tank that's been running for 7 months or so. It's very stable and I do large (40%-50%) WC ONCE a week. I have no detectable nitrates (haven't for a while) and I dose ferts for the plants. Over the last few weeks I've been gradually bringing the water temp up from 78-80 to 84. The plants are doing good (some algae).

Question: I read a lot about doing big WC 2-3x a week, but we're talking about BB tanks right? I mean, the water is perfect w/ 1 wc a week. Is there really any need to do more? Aside from nitrates, what else am I trying to reduce/eliminate concentrations of?

I have a nice stable environment going here with a cleanup crew (snails, FW shrimp, ottos, cories) and the tanks perams are rock solid. I would hate to throw things out of wack by doing more WC, but I read so much about it, I feel like I should do more.


Nice tank. Upping the water changes now would be pointless. Your fish are already stunted but they seem happy. Good luck with the new ones

Eddie

[wizzin]

Nice tank. Upping the water changes now would be pointless. Your fish are already stunted but they seem happy. Good luck with the new ones

Eddie

That's fine. To me, they look like healthy fish. These are my first discus and I've only had them 3 days now. Any stunting was caused by the breeder. I don't plan on showing them or trying to win any prizes here. As long as I'm happy with the way they look, that's all that matters to me. Maybe if I get serious about discus I'll care about all the stuff that makes a "perfect discus specimen" in the eyes of experts, but as a casual hobbyist who just wants good looking discus, these are great.

Phil

[Roxanne]

Phil, all that matters is that you enjoy them....The only person who wins any prizes around here is Discus Hans:D, we can only aspire, although my Rod Lewis specials come pretty darn close in my humble and meaningless opinion:D

The driftwood is a really nice peice, the top part looks ok, not pointy I mean, more shish than kebab, is it one peice?

Rox

[wizzin]

Here's what I don't understand about all this "stunted" nonsense. Suppose the breeder who raised my fish to the size I bought them at didn't change 100% of their water every 5 minutes, didn't feed them 10 times an hour and hence they don't fit the boiler plate of a "pefect discus". Should I just go ahead and kill these fish? I mean, some of the fish I've seen called out as "stunted" are beautiful fish. What good does stating that a fish is stunted in your opinion do? Whats the real problem with these stunted fish? They wont reach 9"? So? Maybe that's not the goal of the hobbyist.

It's something that's frustrated me for the past 2 years of browsing this forum. People buy fish they like, are happy about them, and want to share photos of them, only to have someone say "they're stunted". I posted in the beginners forum because that's what I am to discus. A beginner. I didn't post the pics in the critique section. I didn't claim these were perfect specimens of the species, just that they're perfect to me.

I think there's 3 categories of discus hobbyists here.

1. Those who analyze every measurement of their fish to ensure they meet all the specs of the perfect discus boiler plate. BB tanks w/ large water changes, sometimes daily are the norm here. Filtration is less important because the water changes essentially eliminate the need for a complex system to sustain stable conditions. The goals are either breeding, showing or both and to grow the fish to the largest size possible. Lineage, strain, color quality, form and dimensions are critical.

2. Those who build systems to maintain water quality through artificial, mechanical, chemical and natural means. Establishing equilibrium by using advanced filtration and natural organisms to manage water quality are the norm. Water changes are less frequent because there are more organic components to consume much of the waste, from bacteria to plants and smaller animals to clean up. Natural stability with minimal effort is the goal here, and discus are simply an attractive part of that system. The goals are to have a natural looking environment with healthy fish. To the keeper, the only important traits of their fish is their appearance in their keeper's eyes. This is not necessarily a planted tank, but an aquarium which uses more technology to control water quality than just changing all the water daily.

3. Those who are new and either through lack of research, or understanding of fish needs end up putting discus in less than ideal conditions for any fish, let alone discus. The importance of water changes is not understood, and therefore under done. Filtration and cycling is under done. The goals are just to put beautiful fish in their tank.

The starter group (3) probably typically ends up in group 2 after a while, and probably a lot of people from group 2 end up in group one after some time. Remember too that there are people at all stages of progression to the perfection of group 1.

My point is that IMO, it's unfair for those of one group to discredit members of another group because that person's goals aren't the same as yours. I don't think people in group 1 are wrong for what they're doing, and I can completely understand how one would end up in that group. I'll probably end up there soon too.:) I also don't think group 2 is perfect for everyone. It's all about what you want out of it. If it's all the things listed as goals of group 1, then you should strive to perfect the ways of group 1. If it's the goals of group 2, then strive to perfect the methods of group 2. If it's the goals of group 3, then do that.

This has nothing to do with what is the best way to raise discus, and I'm not arguing the results of doing things like in group 1. It's obvious that doing things like group 1 will result in big round slabs of discus.

I'm just saying that maybe it's not necessary to point out the flaws in someone's fish when it's obvious that that person doesn't care about the flaws.

Sorry, I had to rant here.

Phil

[Don Trinko]

I am mostly in agreement with you. If every less than perfect discus were culled (killed) there would be very few discus and they would be very expensive. There would probably not be enough discus keepers to keep a board like this going.
As you have seen there are different opinions abought some things. WC (water change) is one of them. I do disagee with one statment made earlier in this thread. There are other reasons for WC besides preventing stunting. Insuficient WC will also cause sickness. All of this is IMO; Don T.

[mmorris]

It might be useful to browse through the disease section and see how people who need to post there are caring for their fish. Many times you will see that the fish were in very small groups of less than six, in planted tanks and/or with inadequate wc's. There is a "recipe" for keeping discus that has proven successful time after time.

[wizzin]

It might be useful to browse through the disease section and see how people who need to post there are caring for their fish. Many times you will see that the fish were in very small groups of less than six, in planted tanks and/or with inadequate wc's. There is a "recipe" for keeping discus that has proven successful time after time.

So discus in bb tanks w/ daily wc never get sick? I don't buy that for one minute. In the same vein, every discus kept in a planted tank ends up sick? Don't buy that either. Scolley has some nice fish in a planted tank, why aren't they in the sick ward? I consider this to be the most beautiful discus tank ever http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54156

I've seen some stunning fish in bb tanks, but IMO, it's just pointless. I bet you could grow some crazy "perfect" fish in a trash can too, or a rubbermaid tub. Heck, if you changed the water every day and all the other things, you could raise big discus in just about any container you wanted. I don't personally want a bathtub full of big fish in my family room. IMO, if I can't manage them in a planted tank, then maybe discus aren't for me.

[mmorris]

Best of luck, Wizzin. :)

[Eddie]

So discus in bb tanks w/ daily wc never get sick? I don't buy that for one minute. In the same vein, every discus kept in a planted tank ends up sick? Don't buy that either. Scolley has some nice fish in a planted tank, why aren't they in the sick ward? I consider this to be the most beautiful discus tank ever http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54156

I've seen some stunning fish in bb tanks, but IMO, it's just pointless. I bet you could grow some crazy "perfect" fish in a trash can too, or a rubbermaid tub. Heck, if you changed the water every day and all the other things, you could raise big discus in just about any container you wanted. I don't personally want a bathtub full of big fish in my family room. IMO, if I can't manage them in a planted tank, then maybe discus aren't for me.

Hey Wizzin, nobody said you are doing anything wrong. Pets are pets and they are like family. If you enjoy them, thats what is most important.

One thing about Scolley (Steve's) discus is that they weren't raised in that planted tank as juveniles. They were semi adult/adult discus. Which is why you find many people who have planted tanks keep adult discus. There is no need to grow them out and feed them heavily. The water remains pretty stable with one time WCs per week.

Take care
Eddie

[wizzin]

It might be useful to browse through the disease section and see how people who need to post there are caring for their fish. Many times you will see that the fish were in very small groups of less than six, in planted tanks and/or with inadequate wc's. There is a "recipe" for keeping discus that has proven successful time after time.

I took your advice on this. I just read through the first page of posts in the disease section. Of all the threads here's what I saw:

sick BB fish - 8 posts

sick planted tank fish - 1

sick substrate only fish - 5

unknown - 1

not relevant - 4

I'm not going to spend the time w/ statistics on the history of that forum, but initial observations don't support what you're saying.

[mmorris]

Enjoy your discus. :)

[KDodds]

Wizzin, as frustarting as it is, and believe me, I'm more "on your side" than you know, "calling out" the "experts" is never going to be productive. Further, you won't change the minds of people looking down their noses at your "less than perfect" fish. Worse, you may even incite a further "digging in" to the elitist attitude that exists in some (not saying anyone who's posted here, just general stuff that is not restricted to the discus world) as they say to themselves, "see, he can't even recognize a 'stunted' fish". I've seen it in the reff keeping community where, if you're not keeping "SPS", brightly colored no less, you're not a "reefer", in teh bonsai community where, if you're growing indoor trees, you're not seen as a "bonsai artist", or even remotely capable of offering anythign productive, on and on. Best thing to do, ignore it, accept the well wishes of others, and leave the "experts" to their "pumping" (a term we used in herp breeding). FWIW, I look at "pumped" Discus and they don't look "perfect" to me, necessarily, just big, sometimes too big, just as herps "pumped" take on subtle different body shapes. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. And just remember, a "show" bulldog would get trampled to death, no matter how "perfect" he is to standard. ;)

[mmorris]

The fish's health is my only concern. It doesn't matter if they are stunted if they are healthy and the fishkeeper is happy with them.

[Hattawi]

Wizzin, You have solid logic in your arguments. I agree with your points.

[wizzin]

thanks all. I've taken a "breather" here as I get worked up sometimes :D I do appreciate the well wishes and kind words. I agree, and don't intend to sway opinions or change minds. Just stating my thoughts on the stuff.

It's a love hate relationship with these boards as I've learned over the years. They work on momentum as I've found. A popular concept will snowball into "the rule". On one hand, they're a good resource if you can digest the info and boil it down to what makes sense to YOU. On the other, there are so many opinions, beliefs etc that it's tough sometimes to see through stuff to the real answers.

Hope I didn't offend anyone. Just blowing off steam I think.

[Don Trinko]

This is one of my favorite subjects. ( BB/gravel and WC) I do not like the looks of BB. It is easier to care for but I am willing to do more work to have gravel and fake plants.
I have 4 discus tanks, all with gravel or sand. ( 14 tank in all including 2 Salt water)
What I think allmost everyone agrees on is: Discus require clean water.

Some feel that is is neccisary to do 100% wc with BB to accompish this. Some think it can be done with plants and less WC. Those who advocate 100% wc and BB will point to their success and I am sure that they are successfull but some of them beleive that their way is the only way. IMO there are other paths that lead to healthy discus.

I enjoy this hobby and I enjoy this site.

[wizzin]

This is one of my favorite subjects. ( BB/gravel and WC) I do not like the looks of BB. It is easier to care for but I am willing to do more work to have gravel and fake plants.
I have 4 discus tanks, all with gravel or sand. ( 14 tank in all including 2 Salt water)
What I think allmost everyone agrees on is: Discus require clean water.

Some feel that is is neccisary to do 100% wc with BB to accompish this. Some think it can be done with plants and less WC. Those who advocate 100% wc and BB will point to their success and I am sure that they are successfull but some of them beleive that their way is the only way. IMO there are other paths that lead to healthy discus.

I enjoy this hobby and I enjoy this site.

That second paragraph is kind of my point I guess. Yes, there is a recipe for "keeping discus", but I find it hard to believe that it's impossible or even not a good idea to use another recipe.

One other thought on this stuff is water conservation. I'm sure the aussie members can attest that water is becoming more and more of a scarce natural resource these days. I fly fish and have been for the last 20 years or so. In my time out every year from PA to MD, WV and VA, I have consistently seen drops in water levels from year to year. The water table is suffering. I'm not the only one beating this drum I know.

My point is, maybe instead of writing off a method (ie. planted tanks w/ discus), we should consider working harder at developing a recipe for keeping/raising/breeding discus in tanks that are setup in a more natural way to harness the powers of nature to help us conserve water and reach the same results.

Sorry I tend to be a bit wordy.

Phil

[calihawker]

Wizzin, as frustarting as it is, and believe me, I'm more "on your side" than you know, "calling out" the "experts" is never going to be productive. Further, you won't change the minds of people looking down their noses at your "less than perfect" fish. Worse, you may even incite a further "digging in" to the elitist attitude that exists in some (not saying anyone who's posted here, just general stuff that is not restricted to the discus world) as they say to themselves, "see, he can't even recognize a 'stunted' fish". I've seen it in the reff keeping community where, if you're not keeping "SPS", brightly colored no less, you're not a "reefer", in teh bonsai community where, if you're growing indoor trees, you're not seen as a "bonsai artist", or even remotely capable of offering anythign productive, on and on. Best thing to do, ignore it, accept the well wishes of others, and leave the "experts" to their "pumping" (a term we used in herp breeding). FWIW, I look at "pumped" Discus and they don't look "perfect" to me, necessarily, just big, sometimes too big, just as herps "pumped" take on subtle different body shapes. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. And just remember, a "show" bulldog would get trampled to death, no matter how "perfect" he is to standard. ;)


LMAO! It's so true! There's none worse than those in the falconry community.

For what it's worth I think the benefits of these forums far outweigh the occasional disagreements and flame wars that develop and I think we're lucky to have so many diverse opinions. It helps no matter which group you belong to:)


Steve

[Eddie]

My point is, maybe instead of writing off a method (ie. planted tanks w/ discus), we should consider working harder at developing a recipe for keeping/raising/breeding discus in tanks that are setup in a more natural way to harness the powers of nature to help us conserve water and reach the same results.

Sorry I tend to be a bit wordy.

Phil

Phil, nobody is writing anything off, its just the truth and its the way discus breeders and hobbyists have proved time and time again. Its not even with Discus alone, it's been tested on other farm raised fish such as trout and salmon. You have a constant supply of fresh water and feed them correctly, they attain superior growth. There is a reason why the WCs are done so heavily, not because we feel like wasting time or water. It's proven over and over and over again.

Even with wild caught discus, you ever seen any stunted ones come from the wild? No....not even close. It's not just practiced with hybrids of sake of say so, its because the results are always the same.

You take a few discus from the same batch of fry, raise them the 2 different ways, you will always find the truth. It lies in the water

You can raise nice discus without doing major WCs but it's not the same. Not with young juvenile fish. No way no how

Eddie

[fishyj]

Hi all, I'am new to discus but not fish keeping. Has anyone tried putting discus in a planted tank without all the water changes and seen that they don't grow? I understand about all the water changes, but their seems to be ways of improving everything from filtration to growing fish.

[Eddie]

If you are growing out young discus, a planted substrate bottom tank is not recommended. You can however have potted plants and they will do fine with all the WCs. It all depends on your goal. If you want a high tech planted tank, you probably won't want to do major WCs everyday. If you want to growout mad discus to adult size, you probably want to do major WCs everyday. Many people argue about WCs but there is no arguement. You can grow discus out big without doing daily water changes but you can make sure that those discus would be bigger if you were doing the WCs everyday.

HTH
Eddie

[pcsb23]

There are a number of aspects to this subject which if taken separately may give a misleading result.

I accept there are always those who purport to break the rules yet they grow wonderfully shaped, sized healthy discus. The honest truth is I have yet to see these fish myself.

Often when the newcomer to the hobby ask for advice we have little to go on in respect of their fishkeeping abilities. This often only becomes apparent after a few posts. Also we have to define what success means, because I am in no doubt it means different things to us at different stages in the hobby. There was a time when keeping a discus alive for a few moths to a year was a success to me. Believe me I didn't care what it looked like, if it was swimming I was happy.

I have moved on a little since then. Most people do, not necessarily into breeding or other specifics but just generally in wanting to keep them healthier and longer etc.

So when a newcomer asks for advice logic dictates that we offer them a tried trusted and above all proven method. It is based on simplicity and targeted towards ensuring decent water quality and room for error.

If we were to say, advise using ozone, and the poor newcomer was just that and had little or no knowledge of fishkeeping, just how long would the fish or fishkeeper survive?

Yet sometimes we offer advice with the best intentions and people take offence and consider that they have been somehow insulted. Quite bizarre in my view.

There are a lot of members on here know me. I rarely get upset about anything.

But I find it quite rich that new members to the site dish out comments which are quite demeaning and arrogant, particularly when people have gone out of their way to try and help.

There is no doubt some people consider themselves elitist, some may well have the right to as well, but those that have that right rarely do in my experience.

It also seems that there are a few that consider themselves experts and yet so far have in most cases failed to demonstrate their expertise.

Also, just because you have 2,000, 3,000 or even 10,000 posts it doesn't give anyone the right to be rude.

It is sad that the basic levels of courtesy and respect for each other seem to be diminishing.

To those who have nothing good to say, may I respectfully request you say nothing. If the poster has not asked for an opinion on his fish then maybe it is best not to offer one if that opinion is less than complimentary.

There have been a few interesting questions asked in this thread. And fwiw this is my view on it. Phil asked if it was necessary to increase w/c's with his current setup probably not would be my reply. Would it hurt to do so? no, not at all provided the change water was good.

What do we achieve by changing water? well we reduce the DOC's for one, we also reduce the bacterial load in the water column. The benefits are, usually, healthier fish.

Also, Phil you mention momentum, I prefer myths but... in some ways I agree with you, but when the advice offered is based in demonstrably sound practices by countless thousands, the person offering the advice may or may not know why it is good, but I can assure you keeping discus in BB tanks is neither a fad or a myth. It is a proven technique.

No discus is "naturally" at home in a planted tank. Domestic discus are bred in BB tanks, wild discus come from rivers and lakes with only roots as a rule. But it doesn't mean they cannot adapt. I have regularly kept discus in planted tanks.

To answer fishyj's question I have raised discus from juvenile to adult hood in planted tanks. However I did do water changes, usually 5 in a fortnight (3 one week,2 the next). I really wouldn't recommend it unless you enjoy pushing water uphill. But I needed to know so I did it. The results were ok the fish were decent, I would have got more from them in a BB tank I think.

The point here is take from the hobby what you want, and what you put in.

Reference was made to reading the disease section, believe me I spend a lot of time in there trying to help. The vast majority of disease comes from poor water quality, causing stress or from poor husbandry, we can add to that poor initial stock too, and also poor diagnosis of the original problem. The margins for error decrease when you introduce any form of substrate, even a thin sand covering.

This must be the longest response I've written for quite some time. :o

Advice is offered, it is not mandatory to take it.

As for myself? well I will continue to do what works for me, I wouldn't necessarily advise other people to do it my way. I am however always looking for ways to improve, and I will continue to question my own methods to see where improvements can be made.

[pcsb23]

Eddie pm sent or will be soon.

[brewmaster15]

All,
First I have to say that I agree with Paul's Post here 100% word by word and Letter by Letter. If thats a problem with anyone, they can take it up with me by PM.

I will add to it as well. I don't really appreciate when I see people criticise the good intentions of others here because the info they get isn't what they want to hear or care to hear. One of this forum's goals is to educate hobbyists ... and When you open a discussion...members will share opinions and experiences... but a little tack goes along way also........and sometimes we forget that when posting.

This forum is composed of many experience levels and each hobbyist has their own goals and interests ....if people took the time to be specific and civil in their questions and answers I think there would be far less problems like this thread turned into.

I don't think anyone meant to offend anyone here but sometimes that happens when trying to help.

Still I am locking this thread and editing it accordingly where it went south.

-al