keeping different rams?

[rickztahone]

i was at a LFS a week ago and i was looking for dither fish, mainly rummynose tetras (about 30) and i came across some gorgeous rams. my question is this,... can i keep three types of rams in one tank? i am considering 1)german blue ram 2)golden ram 3)bolivian ram. i want to keep two of each, preferably a male and female. would this cause any type of problem? i was thinking maybe if they started breeding it could be a potential problem. when they become agressive to protect their fry can they pose a serious threat to discus? if i had to choose only two id say GBR and gold ram, i think they look nice. any input or experiences welcome

[kenhappen2u]

YES , for a little while atleast , when they get to breeding size they will fight , but its all about the female ! when things calm down they will be ok untill breeding time again .

[ShinShin]

If you have a tank 48" long, two pair are all I would keep. Males seem to stake off about a 22" or so territory. Rams mature quickly. I'd go German blue and a Gold pair.

Mat

[rickztahone]

If you have a tank 48" long, two pair are all I would keep. Males seem to stake off about a 22" or so territory. Rams mature quickly. I'd go German blue and a Gold pair.

Mat

thank you very much Mat for the input. i have a 6 footer but i wouldn't want to risk too much of the tank if they do decide to breed. is it easy to tell the M/F GBR or the golden? i will probably just do the two.

[ShinShin]

Both BGR's and GR's are easily sexed. Any good tropical fish store will have someone knowledgable enough to pick them for you. The males have a very long 2nd or 3rd dorsal spine and the females have smaller fins all around and a pinkish belly area.

Mat

[thekarens]

Except with the goldens when they are very young. We thought we were getting a haren 1 male, 3 females, but now I think we might have 2 and 2.

[captain morgan]

Hey Rick: I have kept all 3 species of those rams, I found the gbr & gr can be quite aggressive but only amongst themselves leaving the other kinds of fish alone, I'm sure that would change though if they wanted to spawn. These fish also have a very short lifespan usually only 1 year. They are also picky about water quality much like our discus and I did not have much luck keeping them, I think longest one lasted about 4-5 months. The bolivian ram however grows about double the size of the other 2 species is even more tank friendly with the other kinds of fish in the tank, although not nearly as colorful or pretty as the gbr or gr I found the bolivian ram to be the mosy hearty of the 3 living over 1 year. You should be O.K putting a couple pairs of either kind in your size tank as they will have enough room to avoid each other if one has to much attitude. Any luck finding that 2nd xp3 for a good price yet?
Cheers

[scottthomas]

I agree that they have a short lifespan. However, I have been able to keep many for much longer than a year- some as long as 3 years. Mine seem to prefer clean water much like discus but really need a lower pH and soft water. I keep mine around pH 6.0 or lower and temp 82 F. I find that many lfs mistakenly keep rams at the same water paramaters as the rest of their tropical fish (temp too low and pH too high) and they die off at a fast rate.
They tend to be agressive only towards their own kind so you can really only keep a few in a take regardless of the strain.
JMO

Scott

[rickztahone]

Hey Rick: I have kept all 3 species of those rams, I found the gbr & gr can be quite aggressive but only amongst themselves leaving the other kinds of fish alone, I'm sure that would change though if they wanted to spawn. These fish also have a very short lifespan usually only 1 year. They are also picky about water quality much like our discus and I did not have much luck keeping them, I think longest one lasted about 4-5 months. The bolivian ram however grows about double the size of the other 2 species is even more tank friendly with the other kinds of fish in the tank, although not nearly as colorful or pretty as the gbr or gr I found the bolivian ram to be the mosy hearty of the 3 living over 1 year. You should be O.K putting a couple pairs of either kind in your size tank as they will have enough room to avoid each other if one has to much attitude. Any luck finding that 2nd xp3 for a good price yet?
Cheers

i originally got into the bolivian ram due to an auction i saw on ebay where the ram was super colorful. i can't remember if it was called ruby rose bolivian ram or something along those lines but it was gorgeous. now that i see the various pictures of them i see that they do not color up as much as the picture i saw. i am leaning heavily towards the GBR's and the Golden's 1M/1F of each. also, i am awaiting a reply from a fellow SD member on selling me an XP3 for pretty cheap, hopefully he comes through with that. if not then i will have to bite the bullet and get one off of amazon or ebay. once i get the other xp3 i will have to re-do my canopy to accept the input/output which i will have to drill out. i guess that was one of the reasons i was putting it off for so long, lol. i will keep you updated and thanks for the ram info. do any of you have shots of goldens in the tank with discus? i see alot of GBR's but not the golden rams

[ShinShin]

I have kept and bred rams and have had them live beyond a year considerablly. They require the same care as discus, clean warm, acidic water to thrive. They can easily take temps to 90F, temps their native streams of the savannahs of Venezula commonly reach.

Mat

[bs6749]

Finally I am able to give some advice as more of an expert than a student. I am very knoweldgeable on rams. First off, there are two species of rams. The first is Microgeophagus ramirezi and the second is Microgeophagus altispinosa. You often see them misspelled with a "k" instead of a "c", which is the result of the Germans trying to rename the genus. Both species at one time belonged to the genus Apistogramma, but were removed because they aren't harem spawners and they don't have the same breeding habits as apistos, which like to lay on roofs of caves.

Secondly, gold rams and blue rams/German Blue Rams/GBR's are the same species of fish, just different color morphs. The term "ram" refers to this species of ram 90% of the time. They are the more popular of the two species of rams and that has consequences (more on this later). What you saw was a Bolivian ram AKA the Crown Ruby ram among other common names.

Next, good quality rams are not hard to keep alive contrary to popular belief. Since they are one of the most popular fish in the hobby, they are mass produced. Generally, most of the GBR's (common term for blue rams) you see in local fish stores are from ASIA rather than Germany and the Czech Republic. The ones from Asia are notorious for being terrible quality. The rams are subjected to hormones for both quicker growth and for quicker coloring allowing them to be sold sooner to pet stores. As a result, these rams are generally short-lived with an expected life span of around 6 months after you bring them home. They are easy to tell apart from other strains because they have elongated bodies and aren't as bright as quality stock. Sexing is easy given good quality stock.

As for water parameters, nitrates shouldn't be too high for any fish including GBR's. I keep my rams at 84 degrees and they spawn for me in a GH of ~300ppm with near 100% fertility. My last clutch of eggs, though small at only 120ish, had only a single unfertilized egg and the rest went to wigglers! I've had one batch of eggs that was over 490! They do not need soft acidic water to survive, nor do they need it to breed successfully. Their supposed life span is 2.5 years or slightly more. I am confident that I could get some to live 5.

I've successfully kept 4 spawning pairs in a 55g tank (48"), though I only wanted 3 pairs (breeder sent me 4). Once I had 3 of the pairs spawn at the exact same time and the 4th spawned only an hour later. Just imagine the commotion that went on in the tank! It was pretty cool to watch to say the least. I'd recommend oly 2 pairs for a 55g after keeping them, that way they each get half of the tank. For a 125g you could to 4 pairs no problem since you have the extra depth from back to front.

I just sent one pair of rams out on Monday (told you I was running some errands and had to go to the PO). They are 50% wild blood and if you can breed them they should throw not only blue rams but gold rams as well (both morphs occur in the wild). They should be ready to spawn very shortly. Here's a pic or two of some of the rams I've had in the past. Not the best quality pics but good colors on the fish. The ones I'm selling soon are wild stock crossed with the line in the pictures.


http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Miscellaneous/?action=view&current=Picture112.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Miscellaneous/?action=view&current=Picture110.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Miscellaneous/?action=view&current=Picture037.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Miscellaneous/?action=view&current=Picture036.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Miscellaneous/?action=view&current=Picture032.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Spawn%202/?action=view&current=Picture073.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Spawn%202/?action=view&current=Picture072.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Spawn%202/?action=view&current=Picture071.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Spawn%202/?action=view&current=Picture067.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Spawn%202/?action=view&current=Picture068.jpg

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/bs6749/Spawn%202/?action=view&current=Picture065.jpg

Some of these were too large to attach so I just gave links.

[bs6749]

I also forgot to mention that full grown male GBR's will get about 2.5" max and Bolivians can get about 3"+.

Bolivians aren't as popular as GBR's/golds and aren't as colorful IMO. They are slightly more docile than GBR's as well. Only keep rams in sexed pairs! I can't stress that enough. If kept in other ratios you will most likely have dead rams after a pair or two forms leaving the others unpaired. They get harassed and can die as a result. I had this happen when one of my paired males died. The female didn't last more than several months longer.

[Tito]

bs6749
I agree with you 200%

If your rams die in a year you more than likely have the Asian strain. They are the w o r s t.

You need to either get wild caughts or german strains.

In my opinion the asian strains do not look nearly have as good as the others.

Rams should live at least for 3 years if not full term 5 years.

[rickztahone]

wow Bryan great post! so you ship out GBR's? i would love to buy some quality rams from you. ive onky seen what i can only assume were Asian bred rams around my way. the golden rams are a rarity in LFS in my area. i will maybe 2 pairs of each (4 gbr's, 4 golden) since you say it can be done. pm me with further info and we can work something out. thanks again Bryan

[bs6749]

Ricardo,

I sent the first of the rams out on Monday. I had about 23 of them, 2 of which I know I will either cull or move to the community tank. Either way they won't be sold since I only want good stuff going out. I'm not sure how many pairs I'll have since I have a lot of females from what I've seen so far. I have a ton of interest in these rams and have more people wanting them than what I have to offer. I may sell some to the people I have promised them to and sell the rest on AquaBid as an auction, that way everyone gets a chance at them. I only have GBR's, no golds so far, at least none that have colored up enough to distinguish from the rest. I'll look for ones without the black spots (possibly golds). If I do have some though I'll probably keep them for breeders...not making any promises.

If I were you, or what I would do with a 125 is to get a pair of GBR's, a pair of golds, a pair of Bolivians, and two trios (1M 2F) of different species of apistos for that tank in conjunction with 7-9 discus, 4 angels, a large school of 24-40 neons or cardinals, 18 or so rummynose, up to 15 hatchetfish for the upper level, 5 BN plecos (regular finned browns and regular finned albinos), and call that good.

If you are looking to breed the rams you should get an empty 10g tank and put a pair in there. If they eat the eggs then at least you can pull them more easily and put them into a 1/2-1g jar until they turn to fry. Keep them there for a couple of weeks doing water changes of 50% every day. You want to keep the food : water ratio high so the fry don't spend much energy searching for food and this will allow for faster growth. One down side is that smaller tanks are harder to maintain when it comes to water quality. That's what the 50% water changes are for though. Maybe I should start breeding more rams since there seems to be MUCH interest in good stock!

[JFlo]

Is there a sponsor on the site that sells Rams. I am in the market for a male/female pair and would rather not buy from the LFS :D

[Tito]

Is there a sponsor on the site that sells Rams. I am in the market for a male/female pair and would rather not buy from the LFS :D

I don't know if he is a site sponsor but Discus Madness breed their on Rams and they look fantasitc. I've been there and seen them in person. Believe it or not I grab a really nice pair from Petco. I can tell easily they were not from Asia.

[JFlo]

How can I tell if they are not from Asia? Also, how do I know if they are male or female? Is it best to ask the workers at the LFS?

[Tito]

IMO the Asian strains do not show as intense coloration as domestic strains. Females typically have pink bellies. Takes a little training as well. For instance I recently bought a pair of rams that I suspected were from asia from a LFS by me in NJ. Well - after a couple of weeks both fish are dead.

I just bought a pair from a Petco near me. I wasn't shopping for Rams but when I saw how robust and colorful these guys were - I had to get them. Time will tell on how hardy they are. The other two fish I bought were in a tank full of about 50 and their fighting was not as intense - in fact there wasn't much fighting at all. The last two I got which I feel are domestically bred and not from Asia were in a tank of about 20 fish and they were fighting like pitbulls LOL

[JFlo]

Thanks for the info. There were some good looking ones at the LFS the other day. With this new knowledge Im going back to take another look :D

[bs6749]

I am going to have some rams for sale very soon from the ones I'm raising. I'm not a sponsor on here but more of a "regular" and I've sold various things like dwarf shrimp, Endlers, plants, etc. Can give you lots of references if you'd like.

Asian bred rams will have elongated bodies from the hormones and won't be as colorful. Females have pink bellies and their pelvic fins do not extend past the start of the anal fin unlike males which have longer pelvic fins. Males also get quite a bit larger. From good stock it is extremely easy to sex them. If you can't sex them they are either too young or if they are larger than 3/4" I would suggest staying away from them since their quality would be in question (i.e. they are probably Asian rams).